New here - marriage crisis with high functioning BPD

[Think About It...]

Hey Metaldog... welcome aboard. You have gotten the full treatment from your first post... yes?

In your reading, have you come across the excellent example of Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz? THe great and powerful Oz tells her to go and get the broomstick (to her own peril) and bring it to him... she does so only to find out that it wasn't enough. The great and powerful needed more... does this sound familiar? Can you make a list of all the things you've gotten for her or done for her to fill the bottomless pit of her soul? I beleive that getting her (or giving her) a baby is just another one of those BUT WITH INCREDIBLY MORE EMOTION ATTAHCED AND AN INFINITE PRICETAG.

If you choose to have a child or adopt a child with this kind of guilt attached... well, it isn't right.

If you aren't in counseling, get there ASAP... for yourself. Once you understand her illness and get healthy... then maybe you will be able to help her get help... then maybe a baby...

Do the math, that is probably 6-8 years away... but it is possible. At that point, adoption is still an option. (adoption of an older child anyway)

I hope you catch the straight tone of my response. No judgement implied, just the straight scoop. I percieve that you can handle "direct" and "to the point". 

Enoch

[Enoch]

Hey Metaldog... welcome aboard. You have gotten the full treatment from your first post... yes?

In your reading, have you come across the excellent example of Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz? THe great and powerful Oz tells her to go and get the broomstick (to her own peril) and bring it to him... she does so only to find out that it wasn't enough. The great and powerful needed more... does this sound familiar? Can you make a list of all the things you've gotten for her or done for her to fill the bottomless pit of her soul? I beleive that getting her (or giving her) a baby is just another one of those BUT WITH INCREDIBLY MORE EMOTION ATTAHCED AND AN INFINITE PRICETAG.

If you choose to have a child or adopt a child with this kind of guilt attached... well, it isn't right.

If you aren't in counseling, get there ASAP... for yourself. Once you understand her illness and get healthy... then maybe you will be able to help her get help... then maybe a baby...

Do the math, that is probably 6-8 years away... but it is possible. At that point, adoption is still an option. (adoption of an older child anyway)

I hope you catch the straight tone of my response. No judgement implied, just the straight scoop. I percieve that you can handle "direct" and "to the point". 

Enoch

[briefcase]

Hello Metaldog and 

I'm a Chinese horoscope metal dog too!      Rigid loyalty . . . such a blessing in a BPD relationship!  If only that was all we had in common.

As you know, managing a BPD relationship is tough.  You have read some pretty good books already.  Keep reading and posting here.  It is usually possible to improve these relationships by using the tools we discuss here.  I've been working on my marriage for a year now and strong boundaries and lots of validation do help. 

Good luck and keep us posted. 

--BC

[DragoN]

<---Also born in the year of the dog.
Go figure

I'm a Chinese horoscope metal dog too!

http://www.chinesezodiaczone.com/chinese-zodiac-dog-sign.html
Good Chinglish on this one^^^ funny stuff..

Dog people are upright, honest, and straight forward. They are helpful, fair and sincere to people. They are good listeners when other people tell them about their problems and worries, and are willing to share other people's pain. They are so ready to help that they would not hesitate to help heartily when asked to. They have strong sense of responsibilities are reliable. They would not give up but keep trying to do their best at work. These are the greatest virtues of Dog people.

Dog people tend to be stubborn. They are born to be cautious and tend to doubt people to avoid being cheated. As a result, such personalities would hinder them from better development in their career. Since they are used to judge things in their own opinions, they would certainly stick to their own judgement and hardly take other people's advice, not even the correct advice.

Dog people are warm-hearted and goo-looking. Most of them have sharp thinking and are dress up plain. Also, they like nice and soft hair style. They enjoy dancing and travelling, etc. They rarely get involved in what is not their own business, and they would also hear other people's opinions.

How far off the mark or on, is it?

Completely off topic...sorry.

[metaldog]

I want to thank all of you for your support over this.

Enoch, good analogy with the the Dorothy story. It could well be just that. There is another thread running at home that fits this too. Her wanting flowers to show her that I cared. She went on and on about this. I have bought her flowers, ok mostly on her birthday but occasionally on a whim. Some time later her birthday came along and I got her a great big bunch. But the whining didn't go away about the on a whim variety. When I pointed out that I had got her those for her birthday, I was told that those didn't count, because that was for birthday, and it happened on MY schedule, not in response to her begging. Classic!

For the record my uBPDw is ALSO a metal dog, and does possess great qualities too.

Dragon, it is bang on, the stubborn bit is actually helping me at the moment ;-) Looking forward to checking out the Chinglish. Love stuff like that. Thanks for the tip.

Best wishes
metaldog

[Chicken Soup]

I thought the name metaldog had something to do with rock music. 

Hang in there metaldog!

[metaldog]

Hello again, I'm still trying to process everything that was said on Sunday (see my last post).

Saw my T yesterday, so I was able to get some of it out. But the sessions seem to go so fast, don't they?

Last night and again this morning, I got what I call 'needy questioning'. Because I'm grateful of the calm waters, I keep behaving like it never happened, I don't want to rake over it all again, because neither of us has changed our stance on the big issues. And once she starts I'll be listening to the same broken record propapanda, and persuasion. She talks a good game and you could think you were hearing a balanced rational case that was very reasonable. Only from experience do I know that one word of non-compliance or appear any less than 100% attentive could send her into orbit.

So, she has her head on my lap watching tv, then she turns to look at me with her puppy dog eyes and says in her little voice "Are you cross with me? About Sunday?" I say 'No' (why I say no I DO NOT KNOW, it's my way of saying PLEASE don't start again). Pregnant pause. me: "I still have a lot of love for you, you know?"
her: "Oh GOD, you make it sound like it's OVER"
me: "No, I was trying to say a nice thing"

Bedtime, I get more questions "It's difficult for me to know what's going on in your head" she says, I'm thinking, yeah, I have to keep a lot of thoughts to myself, because otherwise you'll angrily pick them apart, tell me that I shouldn't think that, have I ANY idea how much she this and thats, off she goes.

This morning 10am, I get my 2nd phone call of the day from her, she's being needy. "Will I do?", in other words 'am I enough for you? Do I satisfy you? Can you do without ever having anyone else?"
me: "Of course" (why do I say that? Probably because if I don't I'll get 2 more calls at lunchtime with the same theme, her fretting all afternoon, and then 3 rounds all evening)
her: "I love you very much, you know"
me: "I love you too" (got keep giving the right responses, otherwise she might go into orbit).

Sorry, I just needed to vent. Is any of this familiar to any of you?

Best wishes to all
metaldog

[Auspicious]

me: "I still have a lot of love for you, you know?"
her: "Oh GOD, you make it sound like it's OVER"
me: "No, I was trying to say a nice thing"

So you argued and defended ...

How about instead:

me: "I still have a lot of love for you, you know?"
her: "Oh GOD, you make it sound like it's OVER"
me: "Wow, I can see why you're upset, if that's what you heard!"

[onAmission]

 

Hi metaldog,
So sorry you are going through all of this. But, it is great that you found your way here. Sounds like the wonderful folks here have already chimed in with good advice. I'd like to second the advice to read the workshops and focus more on changing how you respond to your wife. It can make a HUGE difference.
 x

[DragoN]

It can make a HUGE difference.

2nd that...or whatever 3367th that.

<-- better than that I tell you.

* nods head sagely*

[an0ught]

Auspicious is giving a real good example how to take her up on her feelings.

You may wonder how on earth you can think quick enough in real life to come up with a good reaction like Auspicious the trick is to anticipate it. You knew she may feel guilty, she is afraid of loosing you. Now the key bit of the trick is not to prepare mentally to sooth her and to re-assure her but push forward into those feelings through questions and validating statements. It is odd, it is uncomfortable - it always is a bit and it is a lot more at the beginning but it is ssoo powerful and disarming. You confirming that you heard that she is afraid of not being loved is the best way to reassure her.

If you block the emotional communicaton level because you are afraid and/or are just fed up with reassuring her the 100th time you confirm her fears and it is not getting better.

[metaldog]

Thanks an0ught, that's really helpful. I'll see if I can pull it off. It's hard in the heat of "battle" to think clearly. My wife is very quick verbally and can run rings around you if you are not careful. I've tried reflecting feelings back to her with varied success. She gets hip to modes of response real fast and that starts to frustrate her, adding fuel to the flames.

[eeyore]

learn quickly... that's my advice. and learn it well.

[Auspicious]

Thanks an0ught, that's really helpful. I'll see if I can pull it off. It's hard in the heat of "battle" to think clearly. My wife is very quick verbally and can run rings around you if you are not careful. I've tried reflecting feelings back to her with varied success. She gets hip to modes of response real fast and that starts to frustrate her, adding fuel to the flames.

There's a mental shift that occurs eventually ... where emotional validation and enforcement of boundaries becomes natural.

Basically, when you stop being so enmeshed, you become capable of listening to your partner's emotions without it tearing you apart. And capable of walking away for awhile when your partner mistreats you. When you aren't so enmeshed, those are natural things to do.

If this stuff were based on short term memory or talent of any kind, I'd be doomed

[Enoch]

Auspicious,

Would you please explain the enmeshed phenomenon? I think I get it... but I am so enmeshed, I don't know where my skin begins or ends anymore. FOG is thick!

When two people first meet and take an interest in each other, they are not enmeshed. Then over time, you become enmeshed. Please describe a healthy relationship between two people who have been together for a long time and how being enmeshed is different/unhealthy. I am all ears (eyes)  haha.

Enoch

[August]

I am learning about emeshment too. All I can tell you is we get so wraped up in the others emotions we don't have a clear picture of who we are alone. Weak boundries seem to be the halmark. But I wanted to say something about children. I have been dealing with this for ten years. I have two kids. My uBPDw treats them differantly they are split. She is hard on our daughter and dotes on our son. But in either case she is not a good parent. Do to her being unstable I need to be the stable consistent one. I can't count on her as a supportive co-parent. To be in this situation I feel like a single parent. I get them dressed, take them to school, pick them up. I plan the weekends and often cook. That said I would do it again because I love my time with them. So prepare yourself, but you child will be a gift to you. Also I keep a good watch on their emotional health and they see a counselor to have someone outside the home to talk to. So far they are great loving kids.

[metaldog]

Auspicious,

Don't think for a minute that it would be off-topic to answer Enoch's question about enmeshment. I would be very interested in what you have to say.

It's funny because me and my wife like a lot of the same things. Sure, there are some things where she is the driving force and others where I'm the prime mover, but there IS a lot of common ground between us. I'm talking about tv, movies, music, activities. But that stuff, PLUS our 20 years together are being put forward as evidence that our relationship is a healthy one. I don't deny that we've had a lot of good times, and still do sometimes. But there have been times when, to be honest, I have been just hanging in there, cowed , hoping there wouldn't be another tantrum. Eventually, I started shopping in the Self Help section at the book shop, and eventually it led here. Though BPD hasn't yet been confirmed by anyone else, a lot of posts here ring an awful lot of bells!

Though it might seem incredible, it has taken this long for me to recognize the presence of verbal and emotional abuse, and to confront it. The reaction to my efforts at confronting have only confirms to me that this is what I am up against.

[Auspicious]

When two people first meet and take an interest in each other, they are not enmeshed. Then over time, you become enmeshed. Please describe a healthy relationship between two people who have been together for a long time and how being enmeshed is different/unhealthy.

I don't think I can do better than Separation of Stuff (be sure to read all pages).

[yogi bear]

metaldog,

Your life sounds like what mine would have been like under many different circumstances. 

When I met my wife 11 yrs ago, I was 24 and she was 21.  She had a 1 yr old son from a previous failed marriage where she got pregnant at 19.  So, after we dated a few weeks, she was upset and asking questions about why I wasn't trying anything sexual on her.  I was very independent, and though I wanted a relationship, I always struggled to get past the crap people throw at you trying to impress you.  I could always read throught that stuff.  Needless to say, I also lacked the full confidence and full self-identity to go after a strong woman who had her life together.  I had alot of respect for women, so I wasn't going to try something sexual on her after 10 days.  Also, it was about myself too.  I didn't want to ruin how much I already liked her by making things more complicated, which sex always does.

I gave in and had sex with my uBPDw, gf of a few weeks at the time.  She talk me into having unprotected sex because she didn't like it with a condom and wouldn't take birth control.  She gave me this crap about how hard it is to actually get pregnant.  Stupid me.  A few weeks later, she was pregnant.  Six months later after many hard times because of her raging and totally turning every argument against me, I was struggling physically and mentally, but we were then married and I was adopting her soon to be 2 yr old boy. 

11 yrs later, I have 3 children with her, a struggling marriage(she recently had an affair), and no self-worth at all.  I was always very strong and happy, but now I struggle with my mental and emotional sides every day.  She only got worse and worse with BPD, and now she has also been diagnosed Bipolar and will not get treatment or even see a T anymore.

Back in 2000, we had talked about having a 3rd child.  This talking went on for several months.  I wanted it and she wanted it, but we hadn't decided when.  Then, in late 2000, she started pushing for the 3rd.  I became very reluctant to rush into it because our first two weren't planned.  Just after I stood firmly before her saying that we needed to wait, she became pregant a month later.  I have zero proof that she made it happen on her own, but I wonder.  Now, I have 3 kids who struggle with some things that I really wish they didn't.  They go through very similar things that earlier posters talked about with a mother who has bad anxiety about everything they do.  If I turn my head and they are in the front yard, she freaks out like they will be stolen.  My children can't play in a backyard that has a 6 foot tall wooden fence completely enclosing it. 

Good luck and I hope you keep your strength.  If she sucks it out of you, it will make your life so much more difficult.

Good Luck

Water Ox ()

[Chicken Soup]

Yogi Bear:

My BPD wife and I talked about a 4th child back in 2001.  I said no and she spent the next seven years trying to sexually manipulate me.  Used the excuse she didn't like condoms, trust me, etc.  One way to torture a guy is to dangle sex in front of him.

Thank goodness #4 never happened.  But now the wife has a permanent chip on her shoulder.  I was supposed to give her a fourth child, hopefully a daughter, so this daughter could help her repair the bad relationship she had/has with her mom.

She told me these things in her efforts to get me to have that 4th child.  I thought "What insanity."

Thanks for sharing,

Chicken Soup.

[metaldog]

Among the things that prey on my mind are the following.

It's 2007, I've broached my doubts about having a child, we've had many evenings of her ranting "Why? why? why now?...", but just now it's quiet. It's Sunday, we've got a couple coming over for lunch. She asks me why I'm unhappy. I point out that she can be bossy sometimes. OMG, off she goes, within 10 mins she's saying that the people at work don't like her and that we'd all be happier if she went and jumped off a cliff! She's stomping around, ranting, sobbing, talking about going to live on her own. SOMEHOW, I manage to talk her down. Our friends will arrive in 10 mins. Pulls herself together, finishes cooking, half an hour later she is laughing, joking being perfectly charming. A few weeks later she claims she can't remember getting that upset! She must have been either disassociating or lying her a** off. I tell her what happened, things she said, and she doesn't remember.  Is this classic BPD?

She claims that she has only ever thrown tantrums over the baby issue. Blatant history re-write. She claims that me denying her a baby because she got upset at the possibility of never having one is absurd. "Can't you see how ridiculous that is?"

She says that I am unforgiving and that I shouldn't hold things against her in a "big book of grievances". But it's not that I can't forgive for those tantrums, it's that I can see them happening again and again. I can imagine me forever walking on eggshells, worrying where the next tantrum will lead. She might be able to deny it all, but I can't pretend it's not an issue.

metaldog