New here - marriage crisis with high functioning BPD

[Think About It...]

Hello,

I'm metaldog because that is my chinese horoscope sign. I consider my wife to be a high functioning BPD. We have been together 20 years, but sometimes that doesn't seem to count for much. I only discovered the existence of BPD 6 months ago, through the book 'The Emotionally Abusive Relationship' by Beverly Engel, but some of the things I read could have been written about my relationship!

I've since got Stop Walking On Eggshells by Paul T. Mason & Randi Kreger, and Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward.

To the outside world we are the perfect couple, and her public face is very charming. She is very intelligent, hard working and artistic. But behind closed doors she can be formidable, volatile, intimidating and verbally abusive. But in complete and utter denial that she is ever any of these things. She is extremely sensitive to criticism while dishing it out liberally.

We are both 39 and she desperately wants a baby. Over a year ago, things got so fraught that I moved out. At the time I knew nothing of BPD. Me leaving came as a terrible shock to her, she promised to remove the pressure and I came back within the week and we gradually patched things up. But within a year all the pressure came back, with all the old behaviour. She regularly makes references/implicit threats to comitting suicide in the heat of arguments. Strongly suspecting BPD I'm very reluctant to have a baby with her. I have a full time job keeping her on an even keel without a baby. But she thinks I've got her all wrong, insists that there is nothing wrong with her, that she'd make a good mother. I now have a therapist but am living in limbo not knowing how long this standoff can go on. It's great to find this forum! :-)

[metaldog]

Hello,

I'm metaldog because that is my chinese horoscope sign. I consider my wife to be a high functioning BPD. We have been together 20 years, but sometimes that doesn't seem to count for much. I only discovered the existence of BPD 6 months ago, through the book 'The Emotionally Abusive Relationship' by Beverly Engel, but some of the things I read could have been written about my relationship!

I've since got Stop Walking On Eggshells by Paul T. Mason & Randi Kreger, and Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward.

To the outside world we are the perfect couple, and her public face is very charming. She is very intelligent, hard working and artistic. But behind closed doors she can be formidable, volatile, intimidating and verbally abusive. But in complete and utter denial that she is ever any of these things. She is extremely sensitive to criticism while dishing it out liberally.

We are both 39 and she desperately wants a baby. Over a year ago, things got so fraught that I moved out. At the time I knew nothing of BPD. Me leaving came as a terrible shock to her, she promised to remove the pressure and I came back within the week and we gradually patched things up. But within a year all the pressure came back, with all the old behaviour. She regularly makes references/implicit threats to comitting suicide in the heat of arguments. Strongly suspecting BPD I'm very reluctant to have a baby with her. I have a full time job keeping her on an even keel without a baby. But she thinks I've got her all wrong, insists that there is nothing wrong with her, that she'd make a good mother. I now have a therapist but am living in limbo not knowing how long this standoff can go on. It's great to find this forum! :-)

[eeyore]

 

Tough situation.  Do you feel like she thought you would change your mind once you got back together?  Do you know why she wants to have a child so terribly?  I do understand your concerns for not having a child. If it weren't for her would you want a child?

[an0ught]

Welcome to the board,

your story sounds familiar.

On the outside they are can be just perfect so nobody who willknow her will understand you. My wife is about the same age and at the moment I'm glad there is no child under discussion (I would like one but she somehow got afraid a 3 years ago when depression and BPD came to the surface). It is now close to one year after the diagnosis by my T and I am finally having weekends that I exit more relaxed than I enter and arguments that don't spiral out of control. This is primarily through me changing and when I think about a child I wonder whether this semi-stability (however much it will still improve) would be enough or whether I would require her to change too before having a baby. What if I would become ill, weak or die?

At the moment you struggle to keep her on an even keel. I'm guessing here but changes to her life, body, hormon system during a pregancy and afterwards are not to be underestimated and could lead to her keel over. Maybe someone who lived through it could tell their tale?

[blackandwhite]

Hello metaldog,

   Great to have you here!

Let me second your concerns about having a baby if your wife is having so much trouble managing her emotions and treatment of you. Having had a suicidal BPD mother myself, I can assure you, being raised by one is no picnic. I can certainly understand her desire to have a child before you both enter your 40s, but if she's emotionally abusive to you and hinting at threats of suicide, she is emphatically not in a position to parent effectively. Here's some more information on that topic: TOOLS: When are the children of a BPD parent at risk?

Eeyore and anOught ask some great questions, so I hope you have a chance to get back and answer as you're ready. I'm pasting in some links to a board (first link below; for those staying with their partners; look over the other boards as well) and to coping and communication links.

Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner

How To Manage a BPD Relationship/Reducing Anger Using SET

Workshop - Tools - what to validate

Tools: how to communicate with our BPDSO: the power of 3, consistency and validation

Tools: Invalidation - are you guilty?

Tools: Radical acceptance for family members

Workshop - BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

Tools: How to take a time out

Tools: US: Do not allow others to 'rent space' in your 'head'

Keep reading and posting. You'll find a lot of support here.

B&W

[DavidWebb]

Hi MetalDog,
 

Welcome…boy your story is so close to my own.

Please see my Newbie post last year, entitles similarly     
Being Divorced by High Functioning (Transparent) BPD 

http://BPDfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=84626.msg838340#msg838340

Your decision to be cautious about a child is a good one.  I was hesitant, but things were really transparent to me…then my family fell apart with the pregnancy.

I have High functioning BPDw who went ‘off the deepend’ with the pregnancy.  We had what family and friends have described as 'a storybook marriage' and 'enviable life'

A perfect storm of hormones, BPD (managed until all hell broke loose), age (ironically is 38) etc, etc.  All behind close doors, and there is 'nothing' wrong with her.  So I know exactly what you are going through...

Keep reading and posting…Marriage counseling can be very difficult with someone showing BPD behaviors, be very careful.

Take care of yourself as well.  Talking with a T is a great step.

[Wanda]

 
 i know where you are comming from, living with a BPD isn't easy and takes a lot of work, on the staying board we work on skills and tools that you read in the stop walking on eggshells, and WE also learn to take care of us so check that site out as well,  i have been married 11 and a half years, i was in the relationship three years before getting married, my kids were all young, and he is high functioning.
 by working the skills and tools i made things better, but to completly heal no not unless he gets out of denial which he will never. so things can improve if we improve them and that usually starts with us i am glad you are here  hope to see you posting again soon check out all the boards..

[metaldog]

Hello again,

thank you all for taking the time to read and reply to me. It's fantastic.
I will try to answer your questions.

In answer to Eeyore, she must have thought that I would change my mind once she had me back.
And would I want a child if it weren't for her, good question, it's hard to say, I think I would but it would have to make sense with the lady in question. I feel too pre-occupied with my present dilemna to ponder it too much. But I'll give it some thought.

She thinks that it is now or never (she has a point), and she sees that it is down to me to give her a child, because there is no time to find somebody else now. Our story is complicated because my mother has Huntington's Disease. Knowing that it is 50/50 whether each child inherits, it was hanging over my head whether I would develop HD. I took the test and I'm clear. Hurrah! But she stood by me through this and now she is basically saying that I owe it to her. She plays the guilt trip to the max. She says that she was prepared to look after me come what may, and so why can't I do this for her. She says that I have to have faith in her, like she had in me. She paints me as the most selfish person in the world for not going ahead.

I have told her that I feel our relationship is not healthy in some ways (notice the non-defensive communication :-), and we need to work on those things before we embark on having a family ("but there's no time for that, it's now or never" she says). After me leaving then returning home we got around to talking (more like interrogation really ) about what I perceived the problems to be in our relationship. I mentioned that certain aspects of our interactions could be construed as verbal abuse. I even mentioned that I had been reading a book about such things as a way of reflecting on my own experiences. In retrospect I wish I'd never mentioned it because she drags it up time and again, blaming this book for filling my head with these ideas. She says I have turned her in my head into this monster, and she is not that person. Since then 'Abuse' has almost become a taboo word, she says 'if anything you're abusing me!'. She says 'it's wrong to label people'. It is impossible to have a rational discussion about such things, it just becomes maximum denial. She thinks I am just making it up to sabotage the relationship.

How can you make any progress if you can't have a rational conversation?
So I can't fully justify my reluctance to have a child because I don't want to mention BPD. Like I say, I can't even mention abuse never mind BPD. I read that it's best if they find out from their therapist. But she doesn't have a therapist, why would she when there is nothing wrong with her.

So at the moment I'm really playing for thinking time, working on myself with my T.

An0aught, you say your T diagnosed your wife, how did you get her to go without her feeling that you were ganging up on her? (I just imagine that's how my wife would respond)

Thanks for pointing me at the links blackandwhite.

Thanks again
metaldog

[eeyore]

tough situation.  I'm out of ideas to help.  Just be careful that she doesn't decide to get pregnant anyway. 

[jtfulk]

First off let me say I'm sorry for what you are going through. I feel for you both. First thing is first though. She has to admit there is a problem and actively take the proper steps to helping herself. How you make her see there is a problem? Well you can't. That's all on her. It's a very complicated thing. I know how you feel about not being able to have rational conversations. My BPD (Rest in Peace) could be very irrational sometimes. I was lucky though. Mine knew there was a problem, there just wasn't help for him. It's tough to find a therapist who actually knows how to treat this type of disorder around here.
I would be very reluctant to have a child with her at this present time. Being married to a BPD for nearly ten years has taught me a few things. And my guess is not only is she wanting a child so bad because "time is running out" but she wants someone to love her unconditionally. Maybe she, for some reason, is feeling abandoned. It's normal for a BPD to feel like they are under fire when someone tells them how they are hurting us. Even more so than a person who is not BPD. Keep in mind it is not her fault. You have to have patience beyond belief to make it work with a BPD. I really don't have any answers for you. I just know what I experienced with my BPDh. And I wish you the best of luck. I'm sympathetic to both sides of the fence because I watched my husband being tortured by his own head for a very long time. He unfotunately ended his suffering three weeks ago leaving me and my two children behind. Yet another reason to be cautious of having children. Good luck to you metaldog.

[OnceConfused]

MetalDog:

First of all, I think having children and their raising responsibilities need to be a mutual commitment between the H and W. The child should not be a question mark of uncertainty in either's mind. So, you must, i mean MUST, either commit to RAISING that child.

Secondly, I can understand the game of guilt and the anxiety from the biological clock from your W. Ususally, in the late 30 the women tend to have the innate drive to have a child before her biological clock ticks down too far.

Thirdly, you will need to understand and assess for yourself her BPD conditions. Having and raising a child requires a lots of time, attention and efforts and that could lead to a lot of TENSION between the H and the W. BPD will make that tension even worse. The guilt game will intensify because she will be stressed out . Can you handle more of the stuffs of anger from her?.

Fourthly, just read all the posts from sons or daughters who has parents w BPD. It is scary.

About stress, I don't think BPD handle stresses very well. That is why they are ready to lash out at any things that go wrong, minor or not. My short 9 months w XBPDgf had more headaches, more angry moments, more break-ups, then all of my previous 22 years w my late wife. I can see why my XBPDgf has gone through so many guys in her life, each lasted for about 6 months. On the outside, my XPBDgf was kind, soft, pretty, but on the inside she was just an angry child, selfish ...

[mmcnulty]

For myself, there is no way I'd take the slightest risk of having a baby with a BPD.

[methinkso]

Metaldog,

we're so glad you've found us. As you are having issues with yor wife, we are thinking that it is time for us to move your thread to the "Staying" board so that you can get more focused support there. Please let us know that this is the best board for you.

[ForeverDad]

I have a son, now in elementary school.  We had been married for over 10 years and I had the misguided thought that having a child would make her focus on more positive things rather than the distress of her childhood.  How wrong I was.  Rather than her seeing life joyously though a child's eyes of discovery, she relived her own sad childhood through him.  She became paranoid about all sorts of possible but unlikely dangers.  "You have to watch him every second when in the yard or someone will jump out of the bushes and abduct him... You can't go to the store or a flasher will jump out and abuse him in a second... He can't go to day care or her will be abused or neglected... I have to homeschool him, he can't go to school because the teachers or aides will abuse him..."  I shudder to think what our child's life would have been like if he were a girl rather than a boy... She never said possibly, it was always probably. 

As much as children are wonderful blessings, children do not fix a troubled or dysfunctional marriage.  Instead, the added issues of custody and parenting make life immensely more complicated.  And should the marriage fail, you will most likely find that determining custody and parenting time will turn into an all-out war that may continue for 18+ years.  As part of the Black Or White thinking, the disordered parent usually thinks s/he MUST win or you MUST lose.  Pretty lousy choices, right?

Please, please, do not seriously consider having children until she is in therapy, making solid progress and well along on the path to long term recovery.  Whether she will even consider therapy or counseling and stick with it long term is a question in itself and her willingness to do it and stick with it ought to be a huge factor in determining whether you can even consider her as being an adequate mother.  If untreated, any children you might have would suffer.  Until recovery occurs, a long process and not an event, though, I strongly suggest you be the one to practice reliable birth control.  All it takes is one time for her to say, "Oops, I forgot..."

[chickadee]

Hi Metaldog,

Daughter of a high-functioning uBPD mom here.

She thinks that it is now or never (she has a point), and she sees that it is down to me to give her a child, because there is no time to find somebody else now. Our story is complicated because my mother has Huntington's Disease. Knowing that it is 50/50 whether each child inherits, it was hanging over my head whether I would develop HD. I took the test and I'm clear. Hurrah! But she stood by me through this and now she is basically saying that I owe it to her. She plays the guilt trip to the max. She says that she was prepared to look after me come what may, and so why can't I do this for her. She says that I have to have faith in her, like she had in me. She paints me as the most selfish person in the world for not going ahead.

The way I see it, you don't have any obligation to give her a child.  Nobody ever "owes" anyone a child!  A child is not a possession, but a BPD mom doesn't see it that way, no matter what she might say.  My mother violated many boundaries with me and used emotional blackmail to protect her own feelings.  I felt so angry and powerless all the time as a child.  I kept my negative emotions toward my mother stuffed inside of me rather than risk her rage and verbal abuse by revealing them.  This had a devastating effect on both my emotional and physical health.  I wish I had a dollar for every time I've thought to myself that I wish I'd never been born.  My parents and I have had no contact at all for years, and I don't plan to ever renew our relationship, it's just too painful.

There is a great book entitled "Understanding the Borderline Mother" that details the things borderline moms do to their children.  You could also check out the "Coping with Relatives with BPD" board on this forum to get some more insight about what the kids of BPD mothers go through.  The damage lasts a lifetime.  Do be careful, I concur with those who said she might decide to go ahead and get pregnant without your consent. 

I'm so glad you're here; you are in a tough situation.  I think there is also a board about Co-parenting with a BPD.  As the child of a BP mother, I urge you to continue reading and posting, I think it can really help you to make the best decisions about your situation.  Best wishes to you,

chickadee

[DragoN]

  metaldog

Glad you have found FtF. You have quite a dilemma. Or not.

she is basically saying that I owe it to her. She plays the guilt trip to the max. She says that she was prepared to look after me come what may, and so why can't I do this for her. She says that I have to have faith in her, like she had in me. She paints me as the most selfish person in the world for not going ahead.

Precisely the opposite. Protecting an unknown potential CHILD from the horrors and chaos of a dysfunctional parent is not selfish.

I hope that reading the forums here allows you to rest quietly in your decision to some degree.

For myself...I have chosen not to have children with my husband. He desperately wanted to start his second family after I returned to him from a 2.5 year split. I was warm to the idea...but had promised myself , one year without the previous behaviors and then to seriously consider the idea. Within 2 months I had my answer.

When he later badgered me about my reluctance, I told him exactly WHY I refused and would not back down. His behaviors, abuse of me, there was no way on God's green earth I would allow MY child to witness that. He never said another word to me about the baby. He knew...he'd blown it utterly with me.

That is where I stand on that matter. It hurt him in the now...I would rather concern myself with the unknown child's well being.

[Chicken Soup]

Metaldog:

Do not have a child with this woman.

After we had our third child, a third son, my wife wanted a fourth child.  What she really wanted was daughter in hopes it would repair the broken relationship with her mom.  I refused. 

She then quit taking birth control and tried to sexually manipulate me.  This is when the BPD started to flair up.  Fortunately, we never had that fourth child.  Sad to say, but she is, and always will be angry at me. 

You're doing the right thing.  Hang it there.

[OutofOz]

Hi metaldog,

I'm sorry you're having such tough times right now.  I hope this board helps you to cope.

I hope it doesn't feel like everyone is pushing advice on you.  But I just wanted to share some perspective because I understand about the decision whether to have children with an uBPD.  As a woman who hoped to have kids in my (now ex) marriage, I think it's honorable that you feel bad your wife is nearing the end of her childbearing years and you realize your decision about this affects her.  But remember she is 100% responsible for her behavior and 50% responsible for the state of the marriage, so this isn't about you cheating her out of anything. 

If she is ill, then her assessment of your joint situation and her decision-making skills are off.  You as the stable one need to make the right call, since she can't do it. 

I am sad that I am in my 30s without kids, and disappointed that I spent 8 years in a relationship that couldn't get healthy enough to be safe for kids.  But I still have to be glad I didn't make that mistake.  The stress of dealing with children would have cracked him.  Uncertainty, loss of control, other people having needs.  All these things drove him off the deep end and made him act out in crazy ways, but they are daily life with an infant.

Good luck in making your decision, and I wish you peace with it. 

   

[Mousse]

Until recovery occurs, a long process and not an event, though, I strongly suggest you be the one to practice reliable birth control.  All it takes is one time for her to say, "Oops, I forgot..."

ForeverDad's advice is worth repeating!  Stuff like this has happened to men here!

I am sad that I am in my 30s without kids, and disappointed that I spent 8 years in a relationship that couldn't get healthy enough to be safe for kids.  But I still have to be glad I didn't make that mistake.  The stress of dealing with children would have cracked him.  Uncertainty, loss of control, other people having needs.  All these things drove him off the deep end and made him act out in crazy ways, but they are daily life with an infant.
Good luck in making your decision, and I wish you peace with it.

Very well put, OutofOZ, and I'm sorry for your own sadness.   I just hope you remember that the book hasn't ended yet.  Who knows what the next chapter will bring?  x

It's terrible to be faced with such wrenching choices, metaldog.  You know we are here for you, no matter what. 

[Auspicious]

How can you make any progress if you can't have a rational conversation?

Well, it depends on what you mean by progress.

Can you be more content with life, more protected from abuse, and possibly improve communication and closeness? Yes.

You can't control her ... but you can control you. You can walk away when she yells at you or verbally abuses you. You can learn how to hear her emotions, instead of arguing with her facts (or "facts").

Have you read our Lessons?

[metaldog]

Thanks everyone for your good advice.
Here's a quick update. Sunday was a heavy day, talking talking, talking, crying (not just her either!), hugging, more talking. For about 7 hours.
Put the LESSONS into practice, particularly the validating, not getting sucked into an argument (not easy as there was a fair amount of baiting). It did stop things spiralling out of control, into the usual talk of suicide. A little victory, at least. I feel a bit of pride that I managed to pull that off.

But because I didn't cave in on the baby issue, I've been given an ultimatum. To fully commit to the relationship by the end of the year or she will leave. By that she means
1) to start trying for a baby.
2) to convince her that I love her for who she is. I know this means buying flowers, always having sex the way she likes it.
3) to stop criticising her (in other words, asking for any changes in her behaviour).

She wants things the way they were. Period.

Citing any examples of her past overreactions, her tantrums she interprets as holding things against her, not forgiving. This comes with reminders of my faults and how she has forgiven me. Ah, the moral high ground, don't you just love it ;-)

Sunday kicked off btw, when I genuinely was showing her affection, caressing her. She soon stopped me, and said that it made her tense, rigid, because she felt rejected, denying her children, off we go. I didn't react strongly, I stopped, and listened. 7 hours later I managed to turn the day around, we went to the gym together and then had a nice evening.

At least I know where I stand :-|

Best wishes to all
metaldog