Have I blown it?

[Think About It...]

So my uBPDexgf and I have been spending a lot of time together over the past 6 months following a break-up of hers last spring (we dated for about a year starting in June 2007 and were apart for almost exactly a year after May of 2008). She has constantly switched back and forth between "I only wanna be friends" and "well you're here now" (as in "I'm giving you a chance") and/or "sometimes people grow to love each other again". She has me out to her place to do stuff around the house, go to her parents for dinner, spend time with her son, walk her dog, massage her feet, go shopping, and occasionally try to seduce me (although almost always somehow makes it awkward by complaining or being critical and then changing her mind).

So yesterday she goes off on me on the phone because she misunderstands a remark I made about her harbouring her anger with her ex husband against me (she somehow thinks I have sided with him out of this). Then it becomes vicious and accusational towards me about stuff she claims I did from the past. And then it becomes "I will never feel the way I did about you again" and "I like hanging out with you hut I don't want to feel pressured into a relationship" etc.

Two weeks ago she took me to a wedding for a coworker where she proceeded to get very drunk and become more and more affectionate and telling me I was truly wonderful.  She proceeded to try and make out with me in the lobby of this venue and I kinda kept it to a minimum since her co-workers, including her manager, were nearby in the building.  This event made me wonder if I was seeing her true feelings because I have suspected she is running from them for a while - while else would she be treating me like a bf in every other way except the emotional involvement?  She even said today that she is afraid emotional involvement will make things complicated with me again (I think she means I will not be fun anymore and only be emotional and "heavy" as she likes to say like I often was when we dated due to my frustration with her mixed messages).

I feel that I have come to accept her for her BPD self, and as she is, this time around and I have modified my expectations and behaviour accordingly.  It is just so frustrating to see someone whom I feel truly loves me as much as I love her and to just be afraid of getting involved again emotionally.  I feel like I have blown it yesterday by telling her that I love her and making things complicated for her somehow.  I just want things to carry on as friends and let them continue to progress as they seemed to have been doing (maybe I am delusional however afterall).

She really hurt me today and yesterday with her harsh words and controlling behaviour.  I don't want to lose someone so special to me, either as a long time friend, or as potentially the one I settle down with, but I really am just about out of gas.  I don't understand why she continually tells me how great I am, then claims to not feel the same as she once did, but then her actions often speak otherwise.  I think personally it's that she feels pressure from every other fracet of her life - and not on purpose by anyone in any way.  Her son adores me, her dog is nuts about me, her family apparently really likes me, her friends think I am great for her (this is all told to me by her) etc. but this inadvertently I think puts pressure on her and it likely doesn't feel natural - it must feel forced to her.  I told her today and yesterday that I don't want these outside influences to make her feel pressure or anything and that I just ultimately hope that one day she can feel the way I feel about her right now.

I am just really worried that I have done the wrong thing and maybe now I am that one extra thing that will push her away out of fear.

[Awesome Jim]

So my uBPDexgf and I have been spending a lot of time together over the past 6 months following a break-up of hers last spring (we dated for about a year starting in June 2007 and were apart for almost exactly a year after May of 2008). She has constantly switched back and forth between "I only wanna be friends" and "well you're here now" (as in "I'm giving you a chance") and/or "sometimes people grow to love each other again". She has me out to her place to do stuff around the house, go to her parents for dinner, spend time with her son, walk her dog, massage her feet, go shopping, and occasionally try to seduce me (although almost always somehow makes it awkward by complaining or being critical and then changing her mind).

So yesterday she goes off on me on the phone because she misunderstands a remark I made about her harbouring her anger with her ex husband against me (she somehow thinks I have sided with him out of this). Then it becomes vicious and accusational towards me about stuff she claims I did from the past. And then it becomes "I will never feel the way I did about you again" and "I like hanging out with you hut I don't want to feel pressured into a relationship" etc.

Two weeks ago she took me to a wedding for a coworker where she proceeded to get very drunk and become more and more affectionate and telling me I was truly wonderful.  She proceeded to try and make out with me in the lobby of this venue and I kinda kept it to a minimum since her co-workers, including her manager, were nearby in the building.  This event made me wonder if I was seeing her true feelings because I have suspected she is running from them for a while - while else would she be treating me like a bf in every other way except the emotional involvement?  She even said today that she is afraid emotional involvement will make things complicated with me again (I think she means I will not be fun anymore and only be emotional and "heavy" as she likes to say like I often was when we dated due to my frustration with her mixed messages).

I feel that I have come to accept her for her BPD self, and as she is, this time around and I have modified my expectations and behaviour accordingly.  It is just so frustrating to see someone whom I feel truly loves me as much as I love her and to just be afraid of getting involved again emotionally.  I feel like I have blown it yesterday by telling her that I love her and making things complicated for her somehow.  I just want things to carry on as friends and let them continue to progress as they seemed to have been doing (maybe I am delusional however afterall).

She really hurt me today and yesterday with her harsh words and controlling behaviour.  I don't want to lose someone so special to me, either as a long time friend, or as potentially the one I settle down with, but I really am just about out of gas.  I don't understand why she continually tells me how great I am, then claims to not feel the same as she once did, but then her actions often speak otherwise.  I think personally it's that she feels pressure from every other fracet of her life - and not on purpose by anyone in any way.  Her son adores me, her dog is nuts about me, her family apparently really likes me, her friends think I am great for her (this is all told to me by her) etc. but this inadvertently I think puts pressure on her and it likely doesn't feel natural - it must feel forced to her.  I told her today and yesterday that I don't want these outside influences to make her feel pressure or anything and that I just ultimately hope that one day she can feel the way I feel about her right now.

I am just really worried that I have done the wrong thing and maybe now I am that one extra thing that will push her away out of fear.

[newworld]

we CAN"T blow it with a BP. It's already BLOWN.  the relationship was broken the first time you said "hello".  Everything else is the long climb out of the damage to being more grown up people. 

She was telling you her truth...yeah she was yelling and blaming and behaving strngely, but she was telling you what she felt in that moment. In 5 minutes, her feelings will change.  That's one advantage of being with a BP. If we can't accept what they feel right now, we can wait 5 minutes for something we want to hear or suits our needs better.

is this a way to live honestly and healthy?

If you are worried that you have put the final nail in the coffin? No. She became disregulated and could not express herself in an appropriate way.  That's on her, not you.

[Awesome Jim]

Wow - that's actually what I suspect also.  I actually caught myself two weeks ago when I was shopping with her.  The criticisms were flying out of her (she was in a really good mood and feeling rather high and mighty I suppose) when we were shopping.  I remember going into one of the isles and just talking to myself, saying "don't worry, she's just doing this to test you or to unload on you, and it will pass in a few minutes just like it always does".  And it did.  In fact I avoided her for a little while and avoided conversation.  She got the subtle message and knew she had crossed a line.

I also feel that her mood will pass.  I plan on giving it a few days until her conscience kicks in as it inevitably does and she calls back to say sorry or to check if we "are good".  She did in fact become disregulated (so well said because all of their traits, I believe, more or less revolve around emotional disregulation - they just lose control).  It's all because she thought I was taking her ex husband's side on something instead of actually hearing what I said which was along the lines of "just because other men have treated you poorly or you are angry with them, doesn't mean I am the same and thus do not deserve to be treated based on how you feel about them".  All she heard was "you're angry with your ex husband" and then started angrily defending her non-anger - and then later when I called her from home says "of course I'm angry with him - he cheated on me" or whatever.  What I said had nothing to do with him and had everything to do with how she treats me (especially when, and because, I said "I love you".

[Auspicious]

I am just really worried that I have done the wrong thing and maybe now I am that one extra thing that will push her away out of fear.

It sounds to me like you are in the grip of fear (I recognize it because I've been there).

Fear of losing her is controlling you - note that I don't say that she is controlling you, because this fear is inside of yourself. You are controlling yourself in unhealthy ways.



(BTW, the answer to all the "why" questions involving inconsistency is that she is mentally ill.)

[united for now]

I feel that I have come to accept her for her BPD self, and as she is, this time around and I have modified my expectations and behaviour accordingly.  It is just so frustrating to see someone whom I feel truly loves me as much as I love her and to just be afraid of getting involved again emotionally.  I feel like I have blown it yesterday by telling her that I love her and making things complicated for her somehow.  I just want things to carry on as friends and let them continue to progress as they seemed to have been doing (maybe I am delusional however afterall).

If this were true, you wouldn't be asking these questions ...

You are still trying to get a duck to bark...

Dear - you are only frustrating yourself and pissing off the duck!

[Awesome Jim]

Ok so today, after two days of cooling off by both parties, I decide I am going to e-mail her as she requested because I have not heard from her - specifically an apology for going over board when it was really uncalled for and especially since she now understands it was a complete miscommunication.

So instead of writing a scathing diatribe of what I was feeling in terms of anger (from the entire relationship and recent bad behaviours) I decide I will be specific and tell her what I really want - which is said apology.  So I write in the title FYI and something to the effect that if she truly considers me to at least be a friend then an apology is owed for her going off on me this week and that I didn't do anything to deserve it (it felt good to finally put in place the boundaries that my therapist tells me to stand up for).  As is typical, her apology goes something along the lines of "I'm sorry that you felt I went overboard..." which isn't really an apology - it would be the same as saying "it's a shame you feel that way...".

Anyways eventually we make phone contact with each other a couple of times (couldn't hear on our cells cuz of background noise) and we are at least civil with each other again.  I was firm with her about her treatment of me and then jokingly told her she was lucky cuz I had just finished getting her something she will really like for Christmas.  She then starts on about me trying too hard again etc. and I basically showed my man card and told her "don't worry, I have lots of ladies that would like this so get over it hahaha".  It took the pressure off her.  I think she just feels out of control and thus obligated when I am nice to her as if I expect something back and I don't.

So I am at a point where I really and truly have to get on with my life.  I explained to her that just because I have been hopeful about us doesn't mean I am expectatious - there is a difference.  I told her at lunch that as much as I would love to have her back, I realize I can't control her or her feelings and that all of the things I do and have done for her are just because that's who I am and what I am willing to do for her regardless of whether she is my gf or not.  I think she is feeling guilty because I have done a hell of a lot for her lately - she has even accused me of trying too hard - how insulting.  That's ok - I will just continue to be there for her but will leave the ball in her court in terms of when she wants to get together (as she always insists we continue to do).

I don't get her but really I've had it with her mixed messages.  She has been treating me like a bf when it's convenient and like I'm a pain in the ass when it's not.  We'll see what happens over time.  The best advice I received lately was from a female friend which is to turn the tables or take the power back.  I tend to agree and I mean it from whatever perspective - friend or bf - I cannot let her treat me poorly anymore without consequences - it's as simple as that.  The mistake I have been making lately is "picking my battles" (in my mind) but really I have been letting too much slide by allowing her verbal and emotional abuse to continue unchecked and then I don't think she respects me because I take a lot of it without rebuttal.

[Auspicious]

I don't get her but really I've had it with her mixed messages.  She has been treating me like a bf when it's convenient and like I'm a pain in the ass when it's not. 

Except you haven't had it. You're still doing it.

We'll see what happens over time. 

If you had "had it", you wouldn't be continuing the dance of accepting whatever crumbs she gives you, instead of spending time with people who really value you  x

[Awesome Jim]

Except you haven't had it. You're still doing it.

I meant I am not going to allow her to treat me poorly and say horrible things to me anymore, not "I've had it with her and want her out of my life".  I still want her in my life.  I can't control the fact that she "doesn't want a relationship right now", as she so often says.  She may never want an intimate relationship with me again but she doesn't want me out of her life either and has always said this.  And then maybe eventually she will again as she has said many times throughout the summer of us spending time together.  I have seen for a while now where it seems she is coming around and her words and actions have demonstrated this.  This fight this week really came out of nowhere and makes me wonder how and why.  It may be that she feels pressure from the fact that her son and I get along so well and that her friends and family like me - it's not like they put direct pressure on her but she has often said everything is so perfect with me that way but that she is unsure.  It makes me think that she feels scared that if she doesn't make things work that she is going to disappoint all these other people and let people down.  I know it sounds silly but I do believe that.  I have also reassured her that I treat her well because I care not because I expect her to come back to me or something and that it doesn't matter if everyone else wants me with her, it has to be that she wants to be with me.  I hope she gets that and I also have told her that if it never works out then so what - we'll always be friends.

As I have said, me being hopeful for us is not the same as having expectations.  I know the difference and have just tried to be mindful of that when I am with her.

[DragoN]

I know the difference and have just tried to be mindful of that when I am with her.

Which is...

  She has been treating me like a bf when it's convenient and like I'm a pain in the ass when it's not.

Not much.

Mindfully completely extricate yourself from her life...such that she is then forced to make an Active decision to make herself someone worthy of being in your life.

[FireFighter]

I feel that I have come to accept her for her BPD self, and as she is, this time around and I have modified my expectations and behaviour accordingly.

Does this mean that you have prepared yourself to be more tolerant of her abuse this time round?  If so be prepared to be hurt worse than the last roller coaster ride with her.

I get the sense you are still trying to have a "normal" relationship with her with ever growing intimacy evolving from a friendship and hoping it turns into a romantic one.  Meanwhile she is doing the typical push/pull thing and leaving you to look for rational explanations to explain her emotional decisions each time she comes closer and pulls away.  You do understand that with BPD that is a futile exercise?  You will drive yourself crazy if you continue to do this.

So the her wedding behavior was very unlikely to be from some deep feelings finally being revealed but rather more likely from mania, impulsivity, alcohol, and suddenly the guy on her arm is the most wonderful person in the world as she is so horny.  Looking to link living in the moment behavior from her to consistent feelings and intentions from her is a mistake.

The uncertainty of whether she is going to be intimate with you, followed by trying to seduce you, followed by complaining that you are pressuring her, and followed by that you are not giving her enough attention is the BPD relationship.  If you let her steer the ship she will put it into the rocks everytime.

She really hurt me today and yesterday with her harsh words and controlling behaviour.  I don't want to lose someone so special to me, either as a long time friend, or as potentially the one I settle down with, but I really am just about out of gas.

This would be a good spot to establish a boundary for yourself about how you are willing to be treated.

Have I blown it?

While she is still in your life, you are still dancing with her.  You came close, it triggered her fears, and she pulled away.  The distance will now bring her closer again.  After that the closeness will drive her away.  On and on.

[Awesome Jim]

Firefighter,

you have a very good sense of BPD and have hit the nail right on the head with what is going on with us.  I am being more tolerant of her abuse.  I have recently realized that while my goal recently has been to set boundaries, I have instead become more tolerant of what she says and what I think she means.  As I often say, she may say it with 1000 lbs but only means 10 lbs - as a means of describing her criticisms and reactions to things and how her lack of emotional control radically affects her ability to communicate calmly and rationally.  I think I am afraid that if I set boundaries I will push her away because I will be accused of being angry again (she only knows of my distant past because I was honest with her) or "beating my chest" - she claims she doesn't like it when I bark back but I have also noticed that this is the only time she seeems to respect me.  I am afraid to stand up sometimes because in my past marriage I was very dominant, aggressive, and angry at times.  I think one of the reasons I find her so attractive is her strength and aggressive nature.  It makes me feel relaxed because I am not afraid that I am going to dominate and become overbearing plus she can take care of herself and isn't needy like my first wife (not blaming my ex for my behaviours but I do realize that our personality mix wasn't healthy for me at the time).

  I am hopeful for a normal relationship with her even though I realize how nearly impossible this is.  I try not to set myself up to have expectations though (as she has accused me of) - I don't want to her want to be with me again out of pressure - whether from me or simply because her son and I get along so well or because it would make great economic sense for both of us.  She has treated me an aweful lot like a boyfriend lately - to a point that I didn't think that even she could be so obvious about simply using me - I figured it must be because she sees me as long term and was trying to make things work.

  I have had the same suspicions about the wedding behaviour - as she said "whatever - I was drunk and horny" - not to mention drunk in front of co-workers and her manager and acting sexually provocative in the process.  I am in a much better state of mind to deal with her this time around since I know what BPD is and how it affects others.  This all happened following a "state of the union" convo in the morning before the wedding with her talking about not wanting a relationship etc.  The last time she tried to seduce me was a similar occurance - her going off on my on my birthday at dinner to a point where I got pissed off, threatened to go home, and then faught back and told her she was behaving like a child.  She tried to seduce me that time too (although made it awkward by telling me to use protection since we are "only friends", rushed me, I lost interest, and then she said we shouldn't have sex anymore).  Sex is always difficult with her. Overall it seems she likes it when I stand up for myself (looking back at the many times I have and the effects).

You are also absolutely right about the uncertainty in terms of what she is going to do next - she tries to seduce me after major fights (and then wonders why I can't just perform).  Then she will go on about not wanting a relationship etc. followed by calling me to support her through a custody battle followed by telling me what I need to do to find a woman (as in distancing me from her again) followed by hanging out with her and her son and dinner at her parents house.  It has never been any different.  The worst part is she claims she is only like this with me, however her track record with men suggests otherwise.  I don't understand why she can't see that I am the one most likely to stay and that we are ultimately really good for one another.  She said the other day "it would only be a matter of time before you left too".  I told her "I am still here".

It's hard because I come to this section for help in trying to make a relationship with a BPD work but I often find the same advice as I get from other sections - as in "get away as fast as you can".  I don't understand how so many people actually can have a relationship with a BPD and make it work.  What can I do on my end to potentially get there?  What am I doing wrong?

[FireFighter]

I don't understand how so many people actually can have a relationship with a BPD and make it work.

I know the self-esteem takes a beating when you see others presumably succeeding in a relationship with a pwBPD where you are failing miserably.  Behind closed doors, it is not rosey for them either.  I thought alot of this question too.  My exgf had a longer term relationship with her ex-fiance for 2 years.  His personality was of a NPD type who ruled over her with an iron fist and would inspect her daily chores for any infraction.  She was living in a constant state of fear and anxiety she was going to be criticized and abandoned.  She had a suicide attempt living in these conditions.  My exgf is currently having a longer term relationship (2 years) with her new fiance after me because by all accounts he is completely submissive to every demand and whim she comes up with as is no doubt suffering immensely.

I failed miserably at a relationship with her because I refused to rule over her as an NPD would and I refused to blindly submit to her (although I was pretty accommodating).  I was trying to have a "normal" reciprocal relationship where we would hand in hand together as equals and overcome life's challenges in a mutually supportive way.  I had to accept that she is currently mentally incapable of providing the relationship I wanted. She was unwilling to change herself to fit my needs and I was unwilling to rule over her with an iron fist and control her by constantly activating her abandonment fears or blindly submitting to her by taking whatever abuse she had to dole out.  I did put up with alot though, buying time while I tried to figure her out.

You are also absolutely right about the uncertainty in terms of what she is going to do next - she tries to seduce me after major fights (and then wonders why I can't just perform).

My exgf would do this too.  I learned that sex was not a mutual expression of love for each other, it was for me but not for her.  My belief was that after the idealization stage was over, sex for her became a way to dominate over me and bring me closer to her when her abandonment fears were triggered and she was fearful of losing me.  She was also interested in sex when she went into a mania from something exciting or fun happening in her life combined with her inhibitions being lowered from alcohol or her pain meds.  NPD types take advantage of this mechanism by staying emotionally detached, picking a fight, triggering her abandonment fears, and then feeding off of the resulting adoration.

She has treated me an aweful lot like a boyfriend lately

She seems to be treating you like her primary white person.  If so you have enormous temporary power over her that she is more afraid of losing you than you are afraid of losing her.  This explains why she is so interested in make-up sex.  When she is in this state she will be more willing to follow you if you empower yourself to lead.  You would have to conquer your fear of losing her as she may not follow and instead attach to someone else.  It is a chance you would have to take to improve the dysfunctional dynamic you are in.  This is what DragoN implies when she says: "Mindfully completely extricate yourself from her life...such that she is then forced to make an Active decision to make herself someone worthy of being in your life."  You can't control her choices, but you can force her to make a choice to follow you down a path to improvement when it is to your advantage.

Increasing your knowledge of BPD and emotionally detaching yourself from the outcome of her choices are needed to succeed following this route. 

I don't understand why she can't see that I am the one most likely to stay and that we are ultimately really good for one another.

She is mentally ill and just trying to survive moment to moment.  It is unlikely she is capable of linking her choices of today to the outcomes of tomorrow or next year.  This is part of the mental illness of emotional thinking ruling over their lives.  DBT and CBT help retrain the brain to help the cognitive thinking rule and she can see that she is making a good choice to be with you.  She thinks very different from you most times.

She said the other day "it would only be a matter of time before you left too".  I told her "I am still here".

You invalidated her feelings of abandonment here by arguing facts.  Learning to communicate with her feelings better will lead to a breakthrough in communication with her and help the current dynamic you are in.  It takes practice and detachment.

[Awesome Jim]

She seems to be treating you like her primary white person.  If so you have enormous temporary power over her that she is more afraid of losing you than you are afraid of losing her.  This explains why she is so interested in make-up sex.  When she is in this state she will be more willing to follow you if you empower yourself to lead.  You would have to conquer your fear of losing her as she may not follow and instead attach to someone else.  It is a chance you would have to take to improve the dysfunctional dynamic you are in.  This is what DragoN implies when she says: "Mindfully completely extricate yourself from her life...such that she is then forced to make an Active decision to make herself someone worthy of being in your life."  You can't control her choices, but you can force her to make a choice to follow you down a path to improvement when it is to your advantage.

Increasing your knowledge of BPD and emotionally detaching yourself from the outcome of her choices are needed to succeed following this route.

I think you are right.  I think it is worth taking a chance here and taking the lead.  If it ends up pushing her away it is still worth it because it will get us out of this limbo state we have been in lately which leads me to another question that has been eating me up.  We had a discussion the other day when she was still angry with me that went something down the lines of "I will NEVER have feelings for you that way again."  She also said something about how I will make some other woman very happy one day etc.  She has never indicated this over the past six months and in fact has been more alluding to the fact that even though she didn't want any kind of relationship right now that things might change and also that she had rekindled relationships from the past before and that it was entirely possible.  Do you think she means this (that she is completely done) or should I simply chalk it up to her being angry with me and thus potentially exagerating her feelings?  I mean she claims she still wants me in her life as a friend and in her son's life.  It's always hard to believe anything she says when she is upset.

She is mentally ill and just trying to survive moment to moment.  It is unlikely she is capable of linking her choices of today to the outcomes of tomorrow or next year.

This is so true.  She really has a narrow focus on timelines and rarely sees the big picture.  Even her recollections of the past are highly inaccurate - like she recollected us dating for 3.5 years - in actuality we dated for about a year broke up for a solid year and have been in kind of limbo for the past 6 months.  She also makes incredibly bad choices in terms of potential outcomes - like drinking excessively in front of coworkers and her manager.

You invalidated her feelings of abandonment here by arguing facts.  Learning to communicate with her feelings better will lead to a breakthrough in communication with her and help the current dynamic you are in.  It takes practice and detachment.

I have read advice regarding this in books and online.  I guess I should really have said "I can understand how you could feel that way.  I may have done things in the past that might make you feel that way but that was not my intention."  This usually works with her lately I've noticed.  A few weeks ago she thought I freaked out at her about leaving the parking brake on after driving off.  I said to her I was just pointing it out and that I didn't yell - she said "I know but that's what I hear" and I said "I know baby, I know that" - as in I understand how some things make her feel if they aren't said in a sensitive way.

[FireFighter]

The state of the union conversation she gave you when she laid down her boundaries of not being committed to a relationship with you but having you still available to her means exactly this... "She has been treating me like a bf when it's convenient and like I'm a pain in the ass when it's not."  When its not convenient for her, it is very likely she will have her lines in the water trolling for alternates just in case you abandon her or she can find someone new she can idealize and lose herself in.

Putting up with unfairness in the short term to keep her around in your life and hoping it leads to loving reciprocal relationship is a losing strategy and you will end up feeling used, chewed up and spit out if she retains all the control.  Her brain is not wired that way to provide what you want for a long term normal relationship if she had BPD.

In the dysfunctional dynamic you are in now, you could approach things with the mindset that the relationship could end at any moment and go from there.  Enjoy the moments with her, protect yourself with boundaries when she is being unfair or particularly nasty, validate her as much as possible, and push her buttons (abandonment fears) when her hurtful BPD behavior becomes too much.   If you do this be very mindful of the level of fairness and when it gets out of balance then take steps to correct it as the relationship could end at any moment and you don't want to be stuck holding the bag.  For example if she needs you to be her escort to a wedding then trade off that she does something for you as compensation.  This is treating a duck more like a duck.

For many on this forum, this kind of relationship is a waste of time when you could be out finding someone great who is capable of providing what you are looking for in a relationship.  Its your life and your choice to make, just like it is her life to cope with life in the manner she does.

[Awesome Jim]

Sir you are a genious!  Perhaps "Firefighter" is a great metaphor you have chosen as your FTF name!

Thank you very much!

[FireFighter]

We had a discussion the other day when she was still angry with me that went something down the lines of "I will NEVER have feelings for you that way again."  

She is splitting you black.  When she splits you white she thinks the exact opposite.  So what to believe?...you trust her actions first and foremost and that is to keep you somewhat in her life, although not fully committed to you.  The level of reliance on you seems to be growing so it will be easier to establish boundaries with her without fear that she will drop you outright from her life.  Once you conquer your fears then you can let go of the outcome and it becomes a response based on her choice.  Much less worrying.

It's always hard to believe anything she says when she is upset.

When she is dysregulated she will likely dissociate...i.e have no memory of what she said to you and you can pretty much dismiss everything as verbal vomit of her emotions being expressed.  If you can't soothe her emotions then implement a boundary and walk away if its too much.

It's also hard to believe anything she says when she is not upset too.  Her actions speak the truth.

This is so true.  She really has a narrow focus on timelines and rarely sees the big picture.  Even her recollections of the past are highly inaccurate - like she recollected us dating for 3.5 years - in actuality we dated for about a year broke up for a solid year and have been in kind of limbo for the past 6 months.  She also makes incredibly bad choices in terms of potential outcomes - like drinking excessively in front of coworkers and her manager.

This phenomena is called Causality is part of the mental development process in children.  Not only is there a difficulty in linking today's action to tomorrow's results but in linking today's results to yesterday's actions.  Instead the solution is to blame the people around for unfavorable results, or take credit for the favorable results.

I have read advice regarding this [validation] in books and online.

It is a practiced skill and the nonverbal part of the deliver is very important.  You will find it is easier to practice on strangers and coworkers...people you don't have an emotional involvement with.  Post examples of conversations with your exgf if you need help.  Quite often pwBPD will complain about the same issues over and over again.  So putting up their laundry list of complaints, you can gain feedback of how better to validate her from what you currently do.  Then you can choose a strategy that you think will work for you when she replays her laundry list.


Added this...

She also said something about how I will make some other woman very happy one day etc.

This is her abandonment fears speaking.  She is not worried about your happiness, she is worried you will leave her just when she begins to rely on you.  So validation time.

Simple... "Aww, that is a scary feeling."
More complex..."Aww, thinking about that gives me a scary feeling."  <pause> "Hug me."  <hug as a way to distract her> "You know, you are so captivating."

Arguing facts..."What do you mean? I just want to make you happy."
Invalidating... "Don't worry about that you are the only one I want"
Abusive..."Yeah, hopefully she won't be as crazy as you are."

She will replay this same fear and complaint over and over again so you get many tries to see what works on her and what doesn't.  If you mess up, don't worry you will get another shot at it, so learn then let it go.

[DragoN]

I don't understand how so many people actually can have a relationship with a BPD and make it work. What can I do on my end to potentially get there?  What am I doing wrong?

Everything Firefighter stated as well as this:

I believe, as it seems to be often the case, you need to be willing and ready to walk away from the relationship if necessary. Why? To protect yourself from becoming enmeshed. Intimacy is something our BPD mates do crave but then they rage against it. When you become too close emotionally, they rage and split you black and push you away...when you are too far away...they cling and pull you closer. Somewhere in the middle is where you will find yourself holding ground.

What you can DO...is to have some very strong boundaries. When you stated you barked back at her, she respected you...that is not uncommon and have read that on other boards. She got the message that something was making you unhappy. It's sad that it has to be that way, but it IS. A better way of dealing with those situations, is simply walking away.

Do NOT tolerate abuse at all. Not verbal, emotional or physical. Boundaries force her to change how she deals with you. She will either choose to deal with you or walk away her self...albeit I doubt that she would.

If you were to pull back from the relationship right now...she would come screaming out of the woodwork. As it is, she is leading the show.

You need to be the one to take the lead...and DO that in the full knowledge that you are doing so to make the relationship a better and happier place for the two of you. She won't like it...
BPD Behaviors: Extinction Burst and Intermittent Reinforcement and she doesn't have to. However if you let her lead the dance because of your FEAR, OBLIGATION, GUILT (FOG) it will suck the life out of you.

In the end...she will still have to make a choice as well you. Black or White. Stay or GO. She will understand that. Make it simple for both of you. The undecided arena is the half way house of hell and a lousy place to be for any length of time. That's up to you.

[Auspicious]

I have read advice regarding this in books and online.  I guess I should really have said "I can understand how you could feel that way.  I may have done things in the past that might make you feel that way but that was not my intention."  

If it works, cool ... a more purely validating response might be something like "you think I'm going to leave? No wonder you are upset!"

[united for now]

As firefighter is telling you, the only way to a healthy and happy relationship is to focus on yourself.
I know that seems selfish and counterproductive - yet it is the only real way to compensate for the fact that your partner is mentally ill and can't do what is right.

Change isn't easy. The way you feel about her (radical acceptance), the way you listen to her (empathetic listening), the way you comm with her (validation), the way you respond to her (boundaries), all of these are tools that we use to stop making things worse so that we can begin to make them better.

It takes time and a lot of practice, but as you change - she is forced to change too. If we stop following and instead take the lead we will see a difference 

[Awesome Jim]

So after going NC for 3 days she calls today. I seriously thought it would be several weeks before I heard from her. I was in court for my job this morning so I came in to the office late and then ended up in a conversation with my friend whose daughter I was out with on Friday with my neighbour (anytime a heterosexual male gets invited to "girls night" it's a highly prestigious honour ). So I get back to my desk to a flashing light and then my cell rings and she was all in a huff cuz she couldn't get a hold of me all day. She wants to come out to stay over at my place tomorrow night cuz she is nearby for business. I said it's fine (without any real emotion - as in she is welcome but whatever).

It be interesting what she has to say after the BS drama from last week.  

[FireFighter]

It be interesting what she has to say after the BS drama from last week.  

Something to think about of what you are likely to expect...

The "BS drama from last week" will likely be completely forgotten about in her mind.  She is a live in the moment person.  Linking her behavior and choices from last week and predicting what her behavior and choices will be tomorrow night will steer you wrong most times.  

Questioning/interrogating her for explanations of inconsistencies will likely get her lashing out at you of why you are bringing up last week now and why you are dwelling.  This then causes her to split you black and the laundry list of all your "faults" appears in her minds eye, she sharpens her claws, and lays into you.

You need to live in the now with her if you want positive interactions with her.  She thinks very differently than you and is governed by the emotion of the moment.  So if you decide that you want to have a very nice evening with her and enjoy her company, you can do that if she is in a positive mood.  If you want to fight, she will change her mood in an instant and do that too and later followed by more push/pull stuff when her abandonment fears get triggered.

Prepare yourself to practice validation skills on her to see the effect on her for yourself.

[Awesome Jim]

Thanks a lot Firefighter. I have been wondering what to expect as usual but you are right - just go with the moment. This will help me too with not harbouring resentment. When I was cleaning my house last night I kept worrying that I am still angry with her about last week and how it might affect how I interact with her when she comes over. I am just going to be easy going but try not to cater to her whims like I have. If she starts drama I am planning on taking your advice and telling her I won't be letting her treat me that way anymore but do it without emotion while validating her feelings at the same time.

I am a bit nervous cuz it'll be the first time she's been out to my place in about a year (in the 6 months that we have been hanging out again I have always gone to her place - she was gonna come out a few weeks ago but I had to DJ an event). However my place is super clean following last night's mass overhaul (at least I was able to do it while catching Monday Night Football) which will give her less to be critical about.

[Auspicious]

Think very seriously about whether you want to turn your higher brain functions off in order to live like her, though.

[Awesome Jim]

Well all I can say is thanks so much for the advice to everyone - especially Firefighter - man's a guru!  Tonight I gave it back to her in spades - just joking around busting on her. Every time I gave one of her rediculous criticisms a shot back she'd say "nice one -well done". With her it's all about earning and maintaining respect and she only really respects strength. I kept my emotions and feelings for her out of the conversation.

What happened? - we ended up fooling around and getting comfortable sexually like we should have done a long time ago but insted rushed intimacy in the very beginning without earnng trust or just learning to be comfortable together naked (vulnerable).  It was just so comfortable and natural and it doesn't matter what happens from here - it just felt like a step in the right direction.

She is sleeping right now in the next room peacefully and I am just happy I got such great advice from everyone. Firefighter was right - she really does care and it is prime time for me to take the lead. She seems to respect that. I shouldn't be afraid to be myself for fear of being overbearing like in the past.  I have to learn to trust myself to exercise good judgement and not be so afraid of losing her that I end up being a doormat - the very thing she finds unnatractive.  

[FireFighter]

What happened? - we ended up fooling around and getting comfortable sexually like we should have done a long time ago but insted rushed intimacy in the very beginning without earnng trust or just learning to be comfortable together naked (vulnerable).  It was just so comfortable and natural and it doesn't matter what happens from here - it just felt like a step in the right direction.

Congrats on your enjoyable moment with her. 

Another heads up...with increasing intimacy there is a greater chance she will pick a fight for no apparent reason at all and push you away.  Look for warning signs and distance yourself from her if you sense a storm building.

Firefighter was right - she really does care

If she has BPD, this evening was all about getting her immediate needs satisfied and not a demonstration that she holds deep feelings for you.  Sadly, she is too overwhelmed with coping with her own internal misery to care about someone else's needs.

Think very seriously about whether you want to turn your higher brain functions off in order to live like her, though.

Auspicious is very correct, I had to "dumb" myself down to have positive moments with my exgf.  For me it wasn't a healthy dynamic to form the basis for a lifelong relationship.  There were fun times though and of course the difficult times too.

You have been used to eating "dogfood" from her and are now learning some tools/perspective so that she might now be giving you "hamburger."  Compared to dogfood that hamburger tastes like steak.  Until she addresses her mental issues and continuing in the dysfunctional dynamic you are in, all she can give you is hamburger.

Congrats on starting to learn to empower yourself and detaching emotions.  Keep learning and asking questions.

[DragoN]

You have been used to eating "dogfood" from her and are now learning some tools/perspective so that she might now be giving you "hamburger."  Compared to dogfood that hamburger tastes like steak.

[Awesome Jim]

So since that Tuesday/Wednesday last week I'm not sure where I stand. We've talked on the phone at work a bit here and there for long periods of time. Last weekend she went away overnight with her parents and her son. She emailed me one time to see if I wanted to share the cost of income tax software (treats me like a husband when she needs me) and also seemed a bit peeved when I said I had to DJ tonight and so can't come out to her place till tomorrow. She tried to cover it up but she seemed a bit miffed. Then yesterday she lectured me about working out too much because I've had some health issues lately (I think it was just overheating) - didn't feel like real concern though. She also said something about how I am going to make some woman very frustrated because of this (there she goes subtly reminding me she isn't serious about a relationship with me). I have been pissed off about this since. When I go out there tomorrow I am afraid I am going to carry that with me. I never know what to expect.

[Auspicious]

I never know what to expect.

This seeming ambivalence (actually the outworking of her inner instability) is the BPD relationship. This is what you will continue to get, unless she improves with therapy someday.

[FireFighter]

So since that Tuesday/Wednesday last week I'm not sure where I stand. We've talked on the phone at work a bit here and there for long periods of time.

You are in a relationship with her...as messed up and uncertain as it is.  It is a relationship while she looks to you to get her emotional needs met and while you are available to meet them.

With a pwBPD in the lead, that is how it will continue for as long as you have patience for it.  In this dynamic, when you grow frustrated and "lose-it" from not having your needs met and pull away, she will likely come closer and placate you for fear of losing you as HER emotional support person.  Once you become locked in again, she assumes the lead once more and the dynamic continues until the next time you "lose-it."  Sometimes she might activate someone else from the backburner and give that person a go until he can't stand it, it all depends on what her options are.  In your mind, she is dangling a carrot of a "normal" relationship with her a ever building intimacy leading to a deepening love and occasionally gives hints that that is the case.  The carrot is an illusion in your OWN mind to keep you locked in.  She is incapable of providing this kind of relationship with you.  Down the road she might, if she addresses her mental issues.  If what is happening currently works for her, then there is no incentive to change on her part.  Until you give her one.

Last weekend she went away overnight with her parents and her son. She emailed me one time to see if I wanted to share the cost of income tax software (treats me like a husband when she needs me) and also seemed a bit peeved when I said I had to DJ tonight and so can't come out to her place till tomorrow.

The income tax software is an excuse to contact you and check to see whether you are available for her in case she needs you.  If it wasn't the software, then she would come up with some other trivial reason to reach out.  (Just guessing, her parents likely asked about you, triggered her to remember you, overcoming object constancy, and so she reached out.)  She was peeved that you were not available to her in satisfying her needs in the here and now.  The way it works on our psyche is similar to brainwashing or conditioning.  She is negatively reinforcing you when you have to do things for your self and unavailable to her.  When you are desperate to "win" her approval, you learn to put your own needs aside to satisfy her and a fleeting glimpse of her approval.

Then yesterday she lectured me about working out too much because I've had some health issues lately (I think it was just overheating) - didn't feel like real concern though.

Abandonment fears on her part.  If you were to drop dead, then who would be her emotional support person?  You would force her to find someone else, how dare you!  So having concern for your well-being is a side effect of getting her emotional needs satisfied.  Being emotionally well balanced of providing your own needs is an asset to make a long term relationship with a pwBPD work.

She also said something about how I am going to make some woman very frustrated because of this (there she goes subtly reminding me she isn't serious about a relationship with me). I have been pissed off about this since.

More abandonment fears on her part.  She is afraid of losing herself in a relationship with you for fear that you will abandon her.  Validate her emotions.  You can't change the way she feels, but if she feels that you are listening to her emotions then she may be able to put herself at ease.  Becoming pissed off when her abandonment fears come out is counterproductive to making a relationship with her work.  She will reflect the emotions back at you making it even worse and you both become dysregulated.  When you understand that abandonment fears is the driving force behind many of her actions and what she says to you then you will be better at keeping your emotions in check.  You have a better shot at keeping your emotions in check than she does so learn to listen when her abandonment fears come out in the conversation.  Actively listen for it with every conversation you have, you will be surprised how much it comes up.  The side effect is you train your mind to listen for her emotions.  So listen for her abandonment fear.

When I go out there tomorrow I am afraid I am going to carry that with me. I never know what to expect.

If you go there with an attitude of having a wonderful day with her and her son.  That is likely what you will get.  She is a live in the moment person.  If she is nasty to you, then excuse yourself and do something fun for yourself.  This is providing negative reinforcement (abandonment fears) for behavior you do not want from her.  "Brainwashing and conditioning back at ya babe, two can play that game, and only one of us actually understands what is going on, and it is not you, even though you are a natural at it."

[Awesome Jim]

Thanks for the input Firefighter. As usual you shed great insight and are realistic but offer great hope by showing the positive sides of what is happening. I will go out to have a good day - I've come to realize that I also control the outcome of that and part of that is also truly accepting her as she is and dealng with it - setting boundaries while also listening actively and understanding her better. Most men have never taken the time or effort to do this for her.

[utvolfan1959]

Everyone must approach their own situation as they feel best.  My post here is just to tell you what happened with me. 

Just a little background:  I met xBPDw in June, 2007.  We dated off and on through June, 2008, with the usual frequent break ups typcial with a relationship with a BPD.  We married in July, 2008.  I left in early October, 2008.  Went back to her in early December, 2008.  She blew up at me the Sunday before Chirstmas, 2008 over nothing and I left. 

This time, however, I handled the aftermath different.  I told her I would not go back to the marriage and face the volcanic eruptions of her anger periodically.  I never got an apology from her, but I think she heard me.  I moved back to be with her a couple of days after New Years, 2009.

For six weeks, we did well, I thought.  And she acknowledged that she was happy and felt loved by me.  I thought we had turned a corner.  But she blew up at me again in mid February and asked me to leave.  I did.

In March, I found out about BPD.  It fit her like a glove.

I feel that she tried very hard to keep things under control those six weeks we were together early this year.  Those were good weeks, except for the end.  The point I would like to leave with you is this:  Their blow ups are like a volcano erupting.  Pressure builds up that they eventually have to let go of.  They may sincerely try to keep things under control, but they can't forever.  They can't for long.  It will eventually find it's way out and you will be the target.  After the blow up, they will go back to normal and you can probably have a few weeks of peace.  But another blow up will come, it's only a matter of time.

Unless and until she seeks treatment, this is the pattern I think you can expect.  It's up to you to decide if this is the kind of life you want to lead.  Many on here have said they won't take it anymore.  I said that.  Others chose to stay.  My hat is off to them.  If you stay, you need to make sure you keep you healthy from an emotional standpoint, because she is going to deplete you.

My bes to you.

[Auspicious]

Most men have never taken the time or effort to do this for her.

Danger - this is what each man was told or had implied to them, while they were on the pedestal.

"Only you understand me, you are amazing and aren't like them."

[utvolfan1959]

The quote noted by Auspicious directly above made me think of something.  As xBPDw and I were breaking up for the last time, she was filing for divorce, etc., I kept saying to myself, "you are probably the first that has every figured her out, and, due to that, you are probably her best bet to beat this thing."  I really believed that.  Part of my knight in shining armour thought process.  Someone not so politely on here told me I was not her best bet, she was her only and best bet.  That person was exactly right.  I would hope that my coming into her life brought something positive.  Something that would stay with her forever.  I guess that is a hope for some validation.  Not uncommon for us nons to have this deep need for validation.  But the truth is that we can leap mountains for them, but it will still come down to what they decide to do for themselves.  I have admitted multiple times on this site that I did not handle things they way I wish I had back when I discovered what BPD was, but I did tell her I would stick with her and walk with her along the path to find healing if she chose that.  She did not choose that, as was her right as an adult.  Looking back, I realize that anything I would suggest that involved me doing something, she would have accepted.  But if it also involved her doing something to change, no dice.  That is a part of the disease.  They don't have it, in their thinking.

[Awesome Jim]

Thanks guys but I am already aware that she cannot change. I know what to expect from her in terms of BPD behaviour and have chosen to try and be with her regardless.  Also, I wasn't qoting her in terms of being the only guy to try and stick it out with her, that statement was my belief. She has had turbulent relationships her whole life. She cannot accept her role in their demise and so has always believed that all men will leave her eventually which is why I think she doesn't want to get involovd with me emotionally again. In fact she said something to the effect that I would leave like all the rest eventually.  I think that scares her and so she doesn't want to risk losing me forever by getting involved with me.

Last night we had a big fight after a fun day of Christmas shopping. She said something about how I'm going to have to learn to listen more before I am with another woman again before I went out to pick up dinner last night. I said something about how I don't want to find someone else and she said "I want you to be happy" and I said "I am happy and I want to be with you because I love you". She said "well I'm not available. If I wanted you I'd have you" - I replied "no, you wouldn't" - meaning I'm not desperate or spineless or whatever she thinks.

So I went to get dinner and when I came back of course she acts like nothing has happened - typical of her to avoid conflict after taking action to inflict it.  So we ate and then after she cleaned up everything and put it back into containers I took what she left for me and headed for the door.  She was like "oh you're leaving now.  Yeah you should probably get going before Jake gets home - he gets all wound up when you are here".  I was very upset with her so I left without giving her a hug and just got in my car to leave.  Then I felt bad as usual so went back inside to say goodbye - I hugged her and she said "Jimmy I can't do this right now my parents are going to be here any second".  It never matters what my feelings are - they are never important enough to address.  She went on about how she and I didn't work out etc. and how we are sexually incompatible - I pointed out that last week we weren't and that she often made sex awkard in the past and is obviously uncomfortable with her body but that she shouldn't be at all.  She also felt compelled to emasculate me saying I have "gay tendancies" - so uncalled for - and that she needs a more manly guy.  That part was completely unnecessary as far as I am concerned - even if she felt that way she didn't have to be so blunt and callous about it.  I know that's not true about me anyways so I don't feel I have to prove anything to her or to anyone.  It was just one more thing to try and rationalize why doesn't want to get involved again.

I am just very upset with her again.  I told her I have broken many of my personal boundaries with her, like being sexual with her without a commitment from her and being treated like a bf or husband when she claims she just wants to be friends.  I really think things are just never going to change with us.  This whole thing from her about never wanting a relationship with me is new though.  I mean even this summer she would say she didn't want a relationship "right now" and that she was trying to get back to how she felt before and "don't worry, you're here now".  Vague, non-committal statements that on the surface seemed like she was willing to make an attempt at being together - and her behaviour reflected that.

Maybe Firefighter is right, that last week's intimate encounter has made her feel suffocated and scared and now she is pushing away again. When she starts saying things that don't make sense (like the whole "we are sexually incompatible" thing when it's obvious we are) it makes me believe that she is lying to cover up her real feelings.  I have been here before and I have noticed the pattern and that does seem to be the case.  It's like when I was a kid and would make up some (now obviously) transparent lie so my mom wouldn't come downstairs and find me and the little girl next door playing doctor or whatever - it's just too well rehearsed and doesn't add up or make sense (like when a child lies).

I don't even know what to do now.  She said she would call me today at work but I doubt this will happen as usual and it really shouldn't occur over the phone while at the office for either of us.  It's just another way for her to avoid emotions because she feels them so extremely.  Thank god I am seeing my therapist today.

[FireFighter]

I don't even know what to do now.

Be good to yourself.  Put the focus back on yourself and what you can control.

If you still want to make it work with her, she will keep coming back to you over and over again like nothing happened.  She will replay the same dynamic until you change things up...so you will have plenty of learning opportunities to find a better way of doing things with her.  Right now you and her are speaking two different languages.  She doesn't have much hope speaking your language, so you would need to learn hers.  Really focus on learning validation it will help solve your communication issues.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. - Albert Einstein

[Awesome Jim]

So I saw my therapist today. I remember telling her why I think I stick it out with her. I think it's because I am certain she is lying about not having feelings for me. I've even wondered sometimes if I am delusional for thinking this but really her words (that she doesn't love me) and her actions (treats me like a bf, is intimate with me) don't match. I truly believe she is terrified of committment and of emotional attachment. I told my T it's like when little kids lie - it's so transparent because it is nonsensical, inconsistant, and doesn't add up logically.

So she calls today and starts going on about the same thing - this new thing that she is NEVER going to feel the same about me. This whole "I want you to find someone else and be happy" crap is new and I don't understand where it comes from. I mean it just feels really final even though she insists she always wants me I her life. If I am with someone else I can't be hanging out with an ex gf and her kid. She went off on almost all the things that she has had problems with me in the past - I guess all in response to me not liking what she said about finding someone else (with me complaining about what she said being the trigger).
 
It was just very awkward and over several calls via long distance cellular and she said completely hurtful thing to which I held her accountable and made her apologize. I don't know if we have any chance in hell after that.

We talked back and forth all afternoon but it just felt like circles. I don't understand how she can be so accusational and against a romantic relationship and yer her recent behaviour suggested otherwise.

[DragoN]

I don't understand how she can be so accusational and against a romantic relationship and yer her recent behaviour suggested otherwise.

She's mentally ill.

[Auspicious]

I don't understand how she can be so accusational and against a romantic relationship and yer her recent behaviour suggested otherwise.

She's mentally ill.

Yep.

You don't have to agree to just "be in her life" on whatever terms she finds comfortable today.

[Awesome Jim]

The very reason I go to therapy and post here is because most people have no idea what it is or what their behavioural patterns are. So talking to family and friends about her is useless as I have discovered I the past. I try to keep that stuff out of my conversations with them and simply reach out to the people who do understand. I even post in this section only now because at least most people here are in relationships of some sort currently and so also understand more or less why they stay and are also willing to deal with their SO's behaviours somehow. Friends and family really don't understand that so it's very alienating in that way.  Dealing with those who understand BPD has helped me cope way better than before.

I realized today how it all started the other day and how I didn't handle it well. It's very likely that when she accused me of not listening and I half jokingly said "no it's just that I don't care about those minor details" it was probably taken as me invalidating her feelings by her. So then she tried to punish me by making reference to the "next" woman in my life, blah, blah, blah. And then I took it personally because it reminded me of what she had said a few days earlier - and I was still peeved about that obviously.  Firefighter warned me about this and I fell right into that trap anyways.

Yesterday on the phone she made reference to subtle hints she had been dropping lately about things I need to change, and now that I think of it likely the whole "ring" thing she was doing all fall also. So indirectly she has now admitted to trying to make our relationship work lately (I don't think I am reading into things here).  I set a boundary yesterday stating that expecting me to respond to subtle hints and expecting a reasonable result doesn't make sense and isn't acceptable my me.  I need her to be more direct.  I also told her that the verbal accusations and emotional abuse are not going to be tolerated by me whether we are in a romantic relationship or just friends.

Regardless, as Firefighter has said if she keeps coming back or keeps me in her life it likely means she is likely still not done with me yet. Perhaps I really do need to change the dynamic a bit.  It's just a thought.  I do want to remain friends with her but even she must see how impossible that would be if one or both of us end up with someone else.  This is why it makes me think she still has something up her sleeve.  Thoughts?

[FireFighter]

It was just very awkward and over several calls via long distance cellular and she said completely hurtful thing to which I held her accountable and made her apologize. I don't know if we have any chance in hell after that.

In the bizarro BPD world, if you nurture this attitude within yourself, she will find you more attractive and will likely try harder to keep you in her life for fear of losing you.

"If I wanted you I'd have you"

Engulfment fears.  Completely mocking you as her own personal doormat.    If she has this attitude of you for extended periods of time, there is a good chance she will be keeping other relationship otions open and you will find yourself triangulated.  You address this one distancing yourself and triggering her abandonment fears. 

Yesterday on the phone she made reference to subtle hints she had been dropping lately about things I need to change

Hater stage. She heaps the abuse on you and makes a list of all the things you need to change about yourself to be worthy of her.  It is a trap, you cannot change yourself fast enough to meet her expectations.  If you end up meeting one of her demands, she will come up with another and another, quite often reversing the previous demand with no recollection of what she was originally demanding from you.  (I played this game with my exgf and lost miserably.)  You can't win by playing this game with her.  It is best not to play. 

I do want to remain friends with her but even she must see how impossible that would be if one or both of us end up with someone else.

She can't see it.  She is completely blind to the consequences of her current choices and actions.  When her engulfment fears are triggered, she feels she owns your a$$ and you will be available to her anytime she wants even if she fires up a relationship with someone else.  Realistically, remaining friends with her while she dates other people is setting yourself up for a world of hurt and pain.  (My exgf tried doing this to me too.  The mistake I made was I allowed it to happen in the hopes I would win her back with my love and affection.  Losing strategy.)

This is why it makes me think she still has something up her sleeve.

She doesn't have a plan or at least a very rudimentary one that is only focused on getting her emotional needs satisfied today and maybe a few days out.  Mentally her thought processes are much like a child's.  You are giving her too much credit in thinking there is an overall plan.  The way she treats you is instinctually.

[Auspicious]

You are giving her too much credit in thinking there is an overall plan.  The way she treats you is instinctually.

Wise words.

[united for now]

Hey Jim...

I'm just now catching up on things.

From what I'm reading, your intentions are good - but your execution and understanding of how to handle things with her is making things worse.

You want to help her and understand her, yet you invalidate her when you don't listen to her. She's right about that. She says something - speaking her heart (at that moment of time) and rather than hear what she's saying and trying to understand why she feels that way, you dismiss her feelings. You tell her she's wrong. Then you wonder why she doesn't feel close to you... how can she? She doesn't FEEL listened to or understood. When you connect with and understand her feelings, then you will see a change in how she feels towards you... until then, nothing will change...

I strongly encourage you to go back and re-read what you've written here, and try to see things from HER point of view...

Then get back to me... 

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