PERSPECTIVES: Conflict dynamics / Karpman Triangle

[blackandwhite]

Our Dysfunctional Roles with Others

This purpose of this workshop is to discuss the dynamics of difficult family and partner relationships and how we become caught up in them.

The Karpman  Triangle, described by Stephen Karpman and elaborated by many others, is a very useful tool for understanding "stuck" relationship dynamics. The idea is that we often find ourselves playing out scripts. These roles feel safe, as they are familiar; we slip into as comfortable as we sink into the us-shaped indent in our own beds. But they are very limiting. They keep us trapped.

The triangle in its simple form consists of three roles:



The roles are Persecutor, Victim, and Rescuer. We may start in one position, but as another (or others) shift around the triangle, so do we.

The Persecutor insists, "It's all your fault." The Persecutor is controlling, blaming, critical, oppressive, angry, authoritative, rigid, and superior.

The Victim is of course persecuted. The Victim's stance is "Poor me!" The Victim feels victimized, oppressed, helpless, hopeless, powerless, ashamed, and seems unable to make decisions, solve problems, take pleasure in life, or achieve insight. The Victim, if not being persecuted, will seek out a Persecutor and also a Rescuer who will "save" the day but also perpetuate the Victim's negative feelings.

The Rescuer's line is "Let me help you." A classic enabler, the Rescuer feels guilty if he/she doesn't rescue. Yet his/her rescuing has negative effects: It keeps the Victim dependent and gives the Victim permission to fail. It also keeps the Rescuer stuck in focusing energy on someone else's problems, not solving his/her own.

(For a fuller discussion of the triangle, see "The Three Faces of Victim" at http://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108384.0.)

[sunstar*]

My understanding is that these positions are not stable. So for example if you play the role of the Rescuer and the other person plays the role of the Victim, then sooner or later you are going to feel resentful towards the Victim and you could end placed in the role of Victim to their Persecutor.

To an extent I can see that played out with my own BPmother. My mother is a BP Queen, so she regards herself as nobodies Victim. Quite the opposite in that she likes nothing better than to find people who are in some way weaker than her and see herself in the role of their Rescuer, but as a result ultimately they end up feeling like her subject or Victim!

Anyway, earlier in the year she broke her arm and for the first time in my life I saw her as the more vulnerable one and did all I could to help and support her during that time. Looking back I realise how much more pleasant she was during that time, so much more humble and human! Now eight months on she is all better and has become an absolute monster, far worse than previously.

What I think happened was this. When she was unwell she ended up feeling that she was more vulnerable which in effect forced her into the role of Victim and me into the role of Rescuer. Now that she looks back I think she deeply resents the fact that she lost a bit of power in the relationship, (as she sees it), consequently she has now turned the tables on me and has become a Persecutor, which forces me into the role of Victim, (as she is quite literally making me sick!)

I think that the ideal is to avoid these roles as much as possible. This can be very hard if the other person takes an extreme stance, which people with BPD are liable to do.

[RottenTomatoGirl]

Ahh...I have a feeling that there are many here -- myself included -- who could have less stressful lives if we could manage to keep this in mind!

Thanks for the great reminder!  (I really need to start writing some of these down)

[Skip]

I have always found this so intersting. These roles are unconscious defenses in which create unhealthy family interactions and keep people disconnected and distant. These roles are ways people, in a dysfunctional way, try to stay safe, or feel important and fuel their egos. Participating in the "triangle" ultimately buries people in manipulation, blame, shame,  and addictions to crisis and chaos.

Karpman described these roles using an inverted triangle with the Persecutor and the Rescuer at the top. The two positions at the top are considered the “one-up” positions where the participants feel superior while the Victim is in the “one-down” position feeing looked down upon and helpless.

As sunstar*  says, these positions often shift as the interactions unfold and when people feel threatened.

• The Victim may become angry at the injustice of being persecuted, thereby shifting into the Perpetrator role.

• The Persecutor may become tired with his angry barrage then feel guilty and shift into the rescuing role.

• The rescuer may become tired and frustarted and shift into the Persecutor role.

Skippy

[discohornet]

I think the Karpman Drama Triangle is very useful in understanding the roles we play and how they shift in a relationship with a borderline.

I think what's most important is looking at how the borderline can shift from victim to persecutor, and how we usually complete the triangle by being the rescuer. All three are victim roles though...

[Isitme]

Great discussion.  I'm still processing, soaking it all in.  But definately relevant to our struggles with BPD's.  Thanks for posting it.

[Bish]

I have been reading about this, it's really good reading...and it makes a lot of sense...

I most definitely identify with the starting gate RESCUER role on the triangle, and I think my uBPDso sways between starting at Victim or Persecutor... what's amazing is looking at our interactions over the last week I can see how both of us can occupy all three at some point in the arguement!

A Starting Gate Rescuer is the classic, co-dependent. The SGR tends be enabling, overly protective - the one who wants to "fix it". Rescuing is an addiction that comes from an unconscious need to feel valued. There’s no better way to feel important than to be a savior! Taking care of others may be the Rescuers best game plan for getting to feel worthwhile.
SGR’s usually grow up in families where their dependency needs are not acknowledged. It’s a psychological fact that we treat ourselves the way we were treated as children. The budding Rescuer grows up in an environment where their needs are negated and so tend to treat themselves with the same degree of negligence that they experienced as children. Without permission to take care of themselves, their needs go underground and they turn instead to taking care of others.

SO me! ^^

The role of Starting Gate Victim is also a shadow aspect. It is the wounded shadow of our inner child; that part of us that is innocent, vulnerable AND needy. This child-self does need support on occasion - that’s natural. It’s only when we become convinced that we can’t take care of ourselves, that we move into Victim. Believing that we are frail, powerless or defective keeps us needing rescue. This relegates us to a lifetime of crippling dependency on our primary relationships.

A SGV has accepted a definition of themselves that says they are intrinsically damaged and incapable. SGV’s project an attitude of being weak, fragile or not smart enough; basically, “I can’t do it by myself." Their greatest fear is that they won’t make it. That anxiety forces them to be always on the lookout for someone stronger or more capable to take care of them. SGV’s deny both their problem solving abilities and their potential for self-generated power. Instead they tend to see themselves as inept at handling life. Feeling done in by, at the mercy of, mistreated, intrinsically defective or “wrong”, they see themselves as broken and unfixable. This doesn't prevent them from feeling highly resentful towards those on who they depend. As much as they insist on being taken care of by their primary rescuers ... they nonetheless do not appreciate being reminded of their inadequacy.

SO my partner! ^^

Reference: http://www.lynneforrest.com/html/the_faces_of_victim.html

[Mollyd]

It's important to remember that people who are truly victimized have little/no power or choices right now (whereas someone acting in the victim role, DOES have power and choices)

And - no one can truly rescue someone who is not in a true victim situation (e.g. kidnapped, war prisoner, abducted, being actively abused, etc.) - otherwise, "rescuing" is really trying to change someone, inder the guise of "I know what is best for them".  One cannot "rescue" someone from their past victimization - the person has to heal that - not get "rescued" from it.

Both the rescuer and victim roles of the triangle can switch to persecutor, when their role doesn't work.


BPD drama triangle:


The classic role of someone with bpd is to start in the "victim" role (with the non entering the drama triangle as the rescuer)

As the interaction is not really about solutions (because it's drama, not healthy interactions), the roles of the people in the drama change.

So, in the bpd interaction - the bpd changes during drama from the victim role to the persecutor (getting angry and lashing out at the non) (or the non can get angry that their "rescuing" isn't working and begin persecuting the bpd)

The non in the drama triangle can also switch from the rescuer to the victim role, if the bpd switches to persecutor.

Ideally - we don't engage in drama.

No Drama - That looks like

normal person + helper person = solution

However in drama people just engage in one of these three roles, and the roles can switch - with no solutions in site.

NPD drama -

npd usually enters the drama (perceivng themself) as the rescuer then gets angry his/her ideas about rescuing aren't honored for the brilliance they assume - then they switch to percecutor.

The non may (if in drama) be the victim to the npd's rescue - then become persecuted for not doing their part to be rescued as the npd wishes.

Molly

[united for now]

Recognizing the dynamics and admitting your place in the triangle is the first step. Now you need an action plan on how to change things.

The hardest part is always the first step.

[Skip]

Ideally - we don't engage in drama.

No Drama - That looks like

normal person + helper person = solution

However in drama people just engage in one of these three roles, and the roles can switch - with no solutions in site.

Great comments.  Know that we see it - what can we do about it?  The drama triangle is a form of passive aggression.

There is a very simply stated strategy published by the Self Help Alliance (Camrbidge, Ontario) for dealing with these situations called "Move to the Center".

       

• Move into the center. Resist the temptation to play an exaggerated and complementary role to a Victim, Rescuer or Persecutor. You do not want to stabilize an unpleasant situation. Instead, find and hold the center position, thereby marginalizing your adversary and eliminating their power base. The center of the drama triangle contains elements of each corner. It is a combination of sensitivity, compassion, and responsibility.

• Refuse to accept your opponent’s force. Do not struggle with them, or yield to them; instead, allow your opponent to move into an indefensible position.

   
If you have successfully taken the center, your adversary will halt their attacks, rather than risk unmasking themselves and exposing the game.

In the style of Eastern Philosophy, you don't want to cast a loved one as your opponent; rather, take their bad habits and unskillful means as your enemy, and destroy them with your awareness and enlightened skills.

Skippy

[noerml]

thanks for this post.  Learning about the drama triangle several months ago gave me my first real awakening that there was something seriously wrong in my relationship.  Wasn't exactly sure about who played which rolls though. I read that the rolls could rotate between the members of the triangle but didn't consider that one person could play multiple rolls.  What I noticed in my experience was that my gf seemed to have  perpetual drama.  I managed to stay out of most of the triangular affairs but one particularly damaging one was with her parents(effectively one party.) With little to know actual communication with them, I'm left thinking that my gf may have played multiple rolls all the while crying victim. 

[OneTrickPony]

Been a little while since I have posted, but, I found this on the
web while doing some reading on Childhood Parentification.

http://www.angriesout.com/grown20.htm

OTP

[rescue1]

Perfect.  Thank you!

R...1

[Gravityworks]

The drama triangle was something my T (when I was with the exbpd) really emphasized. Thanks for the reminder! I recognized that I can definitely fall into the negative dynamics of the triangle.

[Up From Here]

Perfect.

Thank you. 

[OneTrickPony]

In the time I spent getting my head screwed back on straight after my BPD encounter, I found myself seeking reasons for what happened to me; of course, trying to rationalize the irrational. In the process, I realized eventually that I would never find the end-all-be-all answers I needed to make sense of her, so, I began making sense of myself, my motives, my needs, and all of the unrealistic ideas and ideals I had been carrying around about my relationships with others, not just romantic, but in my family as well.

The reality is that it's a HUGE relief to me to be told that it's actually okay NOT to rescue people, NOT to always be the "good guy" and NOT to feel as though I fail others simply because I don't feel the same as they do. For the first time in my life, I feel authentic and self-directed. Do I still fight the urge to rush in and rescue? Yes. But, I also recognize situations where that instinct is being played upon to manipulate me and I can shut it down.

The whole intention of this site is to give YOU the power to lead your life in a grounded, predictable, reasoned way.

Once you structure your own thoughts and feelings and stop reacting to every drama that comes along, you gain that power.

Keep working at it...life's about change. It never stays the same.

OTP

[elphaba]

Very relevent for many here...and knowing that any of the 3 main roles keep us stuck is important to know.  I had mentioned something in another thread recently about "The resilient child" and another article on that subject. When we find that we are identifying to closely to any of the main roles, it is definately time to take some personal inventory, and get unstuck.

Remember that you can have some traits of each of the roles and switch back and forth between them!

Perpetrator—“I Get To Feel Safe by Hurting Others and Putting Them Down”

• Stuck in a false sense of superiority and defense mechanisms keep people in denial.
• Addictive role—feeling the adrenalin rush during anger and rage. Getting high from fighting and witnessing fights. (If you get energized watching the Jerry Springer show, you might check out adrenalin addiction.)
• Unconsciously uses anger as an energizer to keep depression at bay.
• Needs to be in control and uses verbal or physical force to stay in power.
• Deals with threat, new ideas and conflict with anger to stay safe in the role of being the dominant person.
• Uses blame, criticisms, attacks and then venting to release stress.
• Is highly judgmental of others and angry when others do not do what they say.
• Self righteous judgments about others weaknesses subtly allows the weakness to continue.
• Strong sense of entitlement—“you owe me” and willing to use verbal or physical force to get it.
• Feelings of frustration trigger the right to get angry rather than deal with own uncomfortable feelings.
• Unable to feel vulnerable and denies own weaknesses.
• Shame based and uses negative behaviors to cover up/deny own problems.
• Strong need to be right and not have their authority challenged.
• Finds reasons to make others wrong and scapegoats them.
• Believes others deserve the abuse and punishment the Perpetrators dishes out.
• May have had a parent who modeled aggressive behavior and winning through force.
• May have had a parent who spoiled the child setting up feelings of entitlement and getting his way.

Rescuer—“I Get to Feel Safe by Enabling Others”

• Stuck in a false superiority with defense of acting unselfishly to help others.
• Addictive role—feeling good at the expense of others rights to take care of themselves.
• Good guy beliefs, such as takes the “high moral ground” of rescuing and enabling others.
• Needs to be in control of others to avoid own feelings and problems.
• Garnering self-esteem by being seen as unselfish for someone else’s own good.
• Uses rescuing and enabling to connect or to feel important.
• Highly judgmental of others and angry when others do not do what he/she says.
• Blames Perpetrator for problems in the family while refusing to address one’s own problems.
• Is anxiety driven and uses rescuing to reduce feelings of anxiety.
• Guilts self when not involved with other’s problems.
• Has shame about loss of self to meet others needs.
• Super caretaker role can create sense of giving own self away and create depression.
• Strong sense of entitlement with the Victim of “You owe me because of all I’ve done for you.”
• Can become a martyr/Victim when he/she feels that he/she has been taken advantage of by others.
• Parents the child though meeting his/her own needs of shame and guilt rather than meeting the needs of the child to be a responsible person who is allowed negative consequences and learns from them.
• May feel guilty and try to make it up to a child because of a divorce or due to choosing a lousy spouse who abuses, scapegoats or neglects the child.
• May feel guilty and try to make it up to a child because of drinking or using drugs when the child was small, neglecting the child or being a single mom.
• May feel guilty and try to make it up to a child because of a handicapping condition or a perceived weakness in the child.

Victim—“I Get to Feel Safe by being Submissive”

• Stuck in a false sense of being unworthy with defenses of feeling sorry for self and passive aggressive behavior.
• Deals with threats by giving in, in order to feel safe and is submissive when others act inappropriately.
• Unable to stand up for self and avoids confrontation.
• Believes his/her needs do not count.
• Can be overly sensitive, wish-washy and unable to make and stick to decisions.
• Doesn’t take responsibility for own feelings.
• Feeds off of the beliefs of Perpetrator and rescuer that he/she cannot take care of self.
• Has shame base for being irresponsible and inept.
• Is anxiety driven and makes excuses for staying stuck in Victim-hood.
• Blames Perpetrator for problems in the family.
• Anger, resentment and retaliation through manipulation and refusal to act as a responsible adult.
• Moves between “Poor me” and anger with blaming others “He/she is bad.”
• Angry when goes along with what the Perpetrator or Rescuer says to do.
• Feels stuck and unfulfilled in life but does not risk moving forward.
• May have had a lenient or overly-protective parent who set up expectations of helplessness.
• May have had a parent who feels anxiety when the child has to suffer natural consequences from mistakes.

Fourth Role—The Neglector
“I Get to Do What I Want and Ignore the Needs of Others”
While Karpman did not describe this dynamic, the Neglectful Parent can cause anger, trauma and fears of abandonment in children.

• Involved in own interests and needs and does not recognize the needs of the children.
• Is self involved and withdraws from family connections to meet needs outside the home.
• Highly involved in career, hobbies, volunteer work, affair, drinking or drugging.
• Leaves children to fend for themselves.
• Can be absent-minded not there or cold and rejecting.
• Expects oldest child (usually a girl) to raise the younger children.
• Sometimes expects a child to take care of their needs. This creates a parentified child who has to give up their childhood to take care of others. The parentified child grows up learning codependency at an early age and is often angry at missing out on getting to be a child.

A Fifth Role--The Wise, Resilient Child—“I’m Not Like Them!”
Another dynamic not described by Karpman is the child in the family who is often wiser than the parents who knows from an early age that things are not right in the family. This child understands that there must be a better way to live than to keep wounding each other with offensive behavior. He or she starts to look outside the home for positive role models—a teacher, neighbor, healthy relative, friend’s parent or coach. If the child has talent, he/she is reinforced with attention and encouragement for his hard work. He/she becomes resilient in dealing with the dysfunction of the family and seeks healthier people to hang out with. He/she works hard and his/her identity becomes associated with hard work and talent. High achievement becomes the new defense to bolster up self esteem, but it makes the person one sided. Achievement becomes the self esteem rather than balancing all the skills necessary to form connection and create a happy family life.

The resilient child becomes successful in life due his/her incorporation of positive work skills. Working hard and even workholism becomes a defense strategy to feel good and getting the praise that comes with being seen as an excellent worker. All may go well for many years until working hard to keep self esteem high is not enough. The person starts to feel empty and have the sense that something is missing in their life as he/she has literally withdrawn from contact in the family he has created. He/she starts to feel the imbalance that spending long hours on the job or on hobbies has created. Having only limited defenses—working hard and perhaps drinking or drugging, the person turns more to what has worked in the past—working harder. But achievement no longer is enough to fill the void inside.

At this time, there may be a crisis--perhaps a mid life crisis. The defense of achievement does not work any more. At this juncture in life, there is a choice. The resilient child grown up can either crash into depression or acting out in addictions OR start to examine the early pain of being brought up in a Drama Triangle family where unhealthy behaviors were the daily norm. This can be a shake up time where the person decides to go into recovery and address the pain of the past. It may take the form of searching for a spiritual identity and true meaning in life. Some people believe this shake-up time is the Soul’s calling.

I was/am this child and have over the years come to terms with the family drama, my pattern of choices in relationships and seem to be at this end stage of discovery, finding true meaning and generally accepting of who I have become.  There is still work to be done, some healing that still needs to happen, but, I am satisfied with the path, however challanging, knowing it will finally lead me to where I should be.

Source: www.empowercolorado.com/anger/TheDramaTriangle.doc
The Drama Triangle:
The Three Roles of Victimhood
www.AngriesOut.com
Lynne Namka, Ed. D © 2004

[random]

This concept has been really helpful in moving forward, although a little... well, it required some honesty from me. I think I have been stuck in a Victim role a great deal, and I certainly play it with my uBPD mother, who switches between Persecutor and Rescuer.

The Victim is of course persecuted. The Victim's stance is "Poor me!" The Victim feels victimized, oppressed, helpless, hopeless, powerless, ashamed, and seems unable to make decisions, solve problems, take pleasure in life, or achieve insight. The Victim, if not being persecuted, will seek out a Persecutor and also a Rescuer who will "save" the day but also perpetuate the Victim's negative feelings.

Well, the thing is that I did get victimized. But the thing is, as an adult, I contributed to my own victimization and willingly entered into situations where I was seeking out a Rescuer, and wound up with a Persecutor. In the last three years, I let my mother tell me what to wear, where to live, and generally looked to her to fix my life. And then was unhappy with the results, because my mother was arranging my life to suit her needs, regardless of mine! Well, duh. That's what happens when you relinguish responsibility and power and decision-making to another person!

It's hard to admit just how much of the dysfunction in my life is something I now bring into it myself. But I am glad to have found this information and come to these conclusions - I am grateful to have had the chance to grow and hopefully move into greater strength and a fuller capacity to live life, both as "cope with" and "enjoy and flourish".

Victim—“I Get to Feel Safe by being Submissive”

This rings very true. I think I do this a lot.

    * Stuck in a false sense of being unworthy with defenses of feeling sorry for self and passive aggressive behavior.
    * Unable to stand up for self and avoids confrontation.
    * Believes his/her needs do not count.
    * Can be overly sensitive, wish-washy and unable to make and stick to decisions.
    * Doesn’t take responsibility for own feelings.
    * Feeds off of the beliefs of Perpetrator and rescuer that he/she cannot take care of self.
    * Has shame base for being irresponsible and inept.
    * Is anxiety driven and makes excuses for staying stuck in Victim-hood.
    * Blames Perpetrator for problems in the family.
    * Anger, resentment and retaliation through manipulation and refusal to act as a responsible adult.
    * Moves between “Poor me” and anger with blaming others “He/she is bad.”
    * Angry when goes along with what the Perpetrator or Rescuer says to do.
    * Feels stuck and unfulfilled in life but does not risk moving forward.

These again feel very true for me, and I would like these things to change. I really don't like feeling as helpless and terrified as I do so much of the time, and I don't like the way I seem to need to attach myself to a rescuer figure, and surrender all my power to them. That just sets me up for further abuse.

 I am not happy with how being a Victim has shaped my life up to this point, and I would like the dysfunction and chaos in my life to end.

[Auspicious]

Like all tools, it has its uses ... and should be used with care, IMHO.

For example, a person with BPD probably sees you as a Persecutor when you call 911 about their behavior. 

Are you being a Persecutor then?  Well, maybe ... but probably not (assuming their behavior actually warranted it). Depends on your motives, what you are trying to accomplish, etc.

[blackandwhite]

For example, a person with BPD probably sees you as a Persecutor when you call 911 about their behavior.  

Are you being a Persecutor then?  Well, maybe ... but probably not (assuming their behavior actually warranted it). Depends on your motives, what you are trying to accomplish, etc.

I absolutely agree that just because you're given/accused of assuming a role it doesn't mean you're actually playing it. With a BPD sufferer in particular, the roles are going to get thrown around as part of that person's own distorted thinking. And calling 911 when someone is in danger isn't acting as a Rescuer. It's actually rescuing. There's certainly a distinction.

The trouble is in our relationships with BPD sufferers, we get pulled into the triangle and perhaps have trouble distinguishing the truth of the situation (actually rescuing or enabling? setting boundaries or persecuting? being mistreated or acting the victim?). Also, for me it was a great big   when I realized that when my mother, as a BPD sufferer who equates facts with feelings, FEELS victimized, she will find or create a Persecutor and a Rescuer, to complete the triangle. So from her own, internal, not-based-on-anything-in-the-external-world feeling, an entire triangle trap is created. She would seek me and others out to complete the play. It took a lot of awareness not to enter the triangle.

Taking advantage of this early warning system (uh oh, a Victim has show up, better think about how to avoid becoming the Persecutor or Rescuer) can help us defuse difficult situations earlier.

Another important benefit of recognizing these patterns, as random pointed out in a very thoughtful way, is that when exposed to these roles long enough, we come to view them as inevitable models for how to live. Random said:

Well, the thing is that I did get victimized. But the thing is, as an adult, I contributed to my own victimization and willingly entered into situations where I was seeking out a Rescuer, and wound up with a Persecutor.

Understanding these dynamics helps to free us.

B&W

[Auspicious]

Also, for me it was a great big   when I realized that when my mother, as a BPD sufferer who equates facts with feelings, FEELS victimized, she will find or create a Persecutor and a Rescuer, to complete the triangle. So from her own, internal, not-based-on-anything-in-the-external-world feeling, an entire triangle trap is created. She would seek me and others out to complete the play. It took a lot of awareness not to enter the triangle.

Good point A useful thing to watch for .

[random]

The trouble is in our relationships with BPD sufferers, we get pulled into the triangle and perhaps have trouble distinguishing the truth of the situation (actually rescuing or enabling? setting boundaries or persecuting? being mistreated or acting the victim?).

That's a really important point. And sometimes the situation will have elements of both dysfunctional role-play and real actions. Because life is messy    For instance, in my case, I was actually being mistreated BUT I was also accepting mistreatment and submitting to inordinate amounts of control by another person. I entered the situations willingly and gave my power away in hopes of finally having the parent/family I always dreamed of.

And I'm starting to see that it's not wrong to want to have a family, to not feel alone in the world, to know that if you are sick or in trouble, you have people to ask for help. But it IS wrong to enter into relationships where the price for having those things is accepting the unacceptable and compromising myself as a person by accepting abuse.


With regards to Persecutorship, when a BPD person is accusing you of being one, they are actually Persecuting. It seems to me that there is a very sneaky abuse tactic that BPD folks often use, and that is bringing up a grievance. In theory, all things being equal, a person has a right to complain about something you are doing that is upsetting them. BUT. This social contract is something that gets twisted and used maliciously - like, my mother would constantly pick at everything I said and did, and how I said and did it, and the idea wasn't really that I was doing something that upset her. She complained in order to make me defend myself and in order to assert authority. Meanwhile, she was playing the victim. And when she started escalating her complaints into raging and I would try to leave the room, she would scream, "I HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY THIS TO YOU!"

At first, this confused me so much and tied my brain into sailor knots, because I was pretty sure that I was just verbally abused and harassed, but then it does seem like a person should be able to talk about something you are doing that bothers them. Then I came to this conclusion: no, you don't have a right to constantly complain about my behaviour if the intent behind your complaining is malicious and aimed at harassing me, rather than at resolving the situation that is bothering them. It's the interpersonal equivalent of a person who sues everyone in sight - they are using a system unfairly and not in the spirit in which it was intended.

[Auspicious]

It's the interpersonal equivalent of a person who sues everyone in sight - they are using a system unfairly and not in the spirit in which it was intended.

Excellent analogy.

[Skip]

Recognizing the dynamics and admitting your place in the triangle is the first step. Now you need an action plan on how to change things.

Another antidote or escape from the Drama Triangle is know as TED (The Empowerment Dynamic), created by David Womeldorff. The Empowerment Dynamic has corresponding roles to each of those played out in the Drama Triangle.

• Victim shifts to Creator,

• Persecutor shifts to Challenger, and

• Rescuer shifts to Coach.

[Ice Man]

Nicest one. Great article. I find there are thin lines between the three. Really hard to know when you're rescuing dogs from street, is it enabling? Dam, it's so hard to be correct.

[Busybee]

I feel I only ever played the rescuer role with my BP friend. I guess he brought it out of me? I never really tried to save anyone before. I've done some mentoring but nothing so intense...

[doinwhatshecan]

  One cannot "rescue" someone from their past victimization - the person has to heal that - not get "rescued" from it.

This really speaks to me-- I attributed much of my exbpdh's negativity to his past, and believed that if I could "save" him from that our life together would be normal and sane.

I learned to enter the triangle from the rescue position in my FOO.

[blackandwhite]

More on The Empowerment Dynamic that Skip mentions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_empowerment_dynamic

The Empowerment Dynamic (TED) stands as an alternative to The Drama Triangle. The drama triangle is a psychological and social model of human interaction in transactional analysis  (TA) first described by Stephen Karpman in 1968. The drama triangle is used in psychology and psychotherapy to describe the insidious way in which victims, persecutors, and rescuers get caught in a cycle that is hard to escape. For many years, the key to escaping this triangle was thought to be awareness plus willpower. However, there was no clear alternative to the drama triangle. In 2005, David Emerald (aka Womeldorff) published a short book called The Power of TED* to provide a new model that offers an antidote to and escape from Karpman's drama triangle. TED* involves three key roles that correspond to the roles found in the drama triangle. In the drama triangle, the major role is known as the Victim. The Victim is someone who sees life as happening to them and who feels powerless to change their circumstances. Victims place the blame for their status on a Persecutor, who can be a person or a situation. Being powerless, the Victim seeks a Rescuer to solve the problem for them. This dynamic is cyclical and repeats as one problem replaces another, creating a roller-coaster effect of tension and relief in a person's life. These roles are intrinsic to the idea of Victimhood or, as David Emerald describes it, the Victim Orientation.

The empowerment dynamic (TED*) is goal or outcome oriented and replaces the Drama Triangle roles as follows. In the TED* framework, the Victim shifts into the role of Creator. The Persecutor takes on the role of Challenger, and the Rescuer assumes the new role of Coach. A Creator is someone who stops to think about what they want - what their long-term goal or vision is. Creators are outcome-oriented as opposed to problem-oriented. Problems will always occur, but instead of acting as a Persecutor, the problem now takes on the form of Challenger. A Challenger is a person or situation that forces you to clarify your goal. Challengers encourage us to get clearer about what it is we do want, then focus our efforts towards moving closer to that goal. Emerald calls this Dynamic Tension[1]. Dynamic Tension is the difference between current reality and the envisioned goal or outcome. By taking what Emerald calls Baby Steps a Creator gets closer to and clearer about the goals or outcomes they are trying to create in their lives.

The final role of the TED* triangle is that of Coach. Instead of Rescuing someone, a Coach asks questions that are intended to help the individual to make informed choices. A Rescuer, by definition solves a Victim's problems, which keeps the Victim powerless and dependent upon the aid of others. This is a form of mind-game that can be found in Transactional Analysis[2]. This is a self-perpetuating cycle designed to keep the Victim down and powerless. The key differentiator between a Rescuer and a Coach is that the Coach sees the individual as capable of making choices and of solving their own problems. A Coach asks questions that enable the individual to see the possibilities for positive action, to focus on what they do want instead of what they don't want. Coaches see victims as Creators in their own right and meet them as equals. This process interrupts the drama cycle and puts the former victim in the powerful position of Creator where they make informed choices and focus on outcomes instead of problems.

[1q2w3e]

I've just ordered the book 'The Power of TED' http://www.powerofted.com/ and look forward to reading it.

On the drama triangle, I've certainly played the role of victim to UBPDW's persecutor, and I want to end that toxic dynamic.  It's interesting that within the past few weeks, I've had some moments of strength and clarity, where I can start wrapping my head around the idea of creating goals for myself, becoming more pro-active in my life, and less reactionary to W's drama and chaos.  Granted, the moments are fleeting, but I do sense that I'm making some progress.

I also sense that our changing to a healthier dynamic (i.e., victim to creator, persecutor to challenger, rescuer to coach) can facilitate the ability for us to set and maintain appropriate boundaries...and perhaps it's all really intertwined as part of a positive, upward cycle on our individual paths to better emotional health?

blackandwhite, am I on the right track with this?

[blackandwhite]

Here's an excerpt of another formulation related to the drama triangle. This one describes four roles ("states") that a person with Borderline Personality Disorder is likely to play, and the way that others (in particular therapists, but we can also consider how these states impact partners and family members) are likely to respond. The author looks at these states in terms of value, agency, and attribution--who has power (in the person's mind) and who is good or bad (in the person's mind).

Excerpted from: "Borderline Attributions," by Robert J. Gregory, Robert J. American Journal of Psychotherapy, 2007, Vol. 61 Issue 2, p131-147, 17p

Four States: Helpless Victim, Guilty Perpetrator, Angry Victim, Demigod Perpetrator

[There are]...four common states of borderline personality disorder, i.e. helpless victim, guilty perpetrator, angry victim, and demigod perpetrator. Each state of being is characterized by a predominant motivation for either dependency or autonomy and assignment of polarized attributions of value and agency to self and others. The rigid and polarized attributions within each state lead to well-defined expectations for the self and how others will respond to self. Moreover, since others frequently feel compelled to respond in a manner consistent with those expectations, the net result is a self-perpetuating, stereotypical, and repetitive pattern of interpersonal relatedness.

THE HELPLESS VICTIM STATE (OTHER IS GOOD, OTHER IS BAD)

In the helpless victim state of being, both agency and value are assigned to others. Self-image is as an innocent and helpless child, whereas other people are split into either all good and powerful or all bad and powerful images, thereby creating a triadic relational system analogous to Karpman's (1968) drama triangle of victim, rescuer, and persecutor.

This state allows patients to maintain self-esteem through shifting the locus of responsibility for negative consequences from self to others. It also satisfies the patient's need for unification with an idealized caregiver, though at the cost of undercutting the patients' sense of power and autonomy.

Countertransference reactions to patients in this state are very positive, assuming that the therapist is on the good side of the binary attribution of value. [To help]...The therapist partially gratifies dependency wishes by a warm and soothing manner in the role of the ideal other, while also supporting the patient's independent decision-making and creative exploration of his/her unique attributes...

THE GUILTY PERPETRATOR STATE (SELF IS BAD, OTHER IS GOOD)

The guilty perpetrator state is characterized by depression and hopelessness. Self-image is very negative and assumes total responsibility for every bad thing that ever happened. Persons perceive themselves as inadequate, defective, evil, and/or a hopeless case, i.e. "I'm just this crazy person who will never get better, so I might as well end things right now." There is a significant risk of suicide.

Separation fears and/or fears of retaliation for attempts to differentiate the self through assertiveness commonly trigger the guilty perpetrator state (Rogers et al., 1995). It serves to maintain attachment in a conflicted relationship by owning the blame (i.e. sense of agency) for any difficulties. It represents a last ditch effort to hold onto an untarnished image of the ideal other in the context of emerging feelings of anger and resentment. For example, the guilty perpetrator state often follows a therapist's vacation or an incident of physical abuse from a spouse.

Self-destructive behaviors, such as cutting or overdose, are common in this state, serving as symbolic atonement for self-perceived badness and thus, relieve dysphoria. These behaviors also serve to displace aggressive impulses that might otherwise jeopardize a relationship.

...The therapist is in the awkward position of being stuck in the role of the idealized rescuer, but having no agency. For example, the patient might state, "I know you mean well, but nothing seems to be working. I'm so depressed and need some help!"...The therapist must avoid enactment of the role of the rescuer, regain agency, and challenge the patient's self-perception of irredeemable badness. This may include refraining from excessive interventions and/or by pointing out ways that the patient is choosing not to not participate fully in treatment.

THE ANGRY VICTIM STATE (SELF IS GOOD, OTHER IS BAD)

In this state, agency is given to others, who are seen as persecutory. The patient's self-image is idealized as the heroic victim who endures life's trials. The slogan is "I can't soar like an eagle when I'm surrounded by turkeys."

Mood is irritable, as patients feel justified in denigrating the many people, including the therapist, who are giving them a hard time. Patients' behavior is frequently demeaning, controlling, and intrusive. They have prominent paranoid, obsessive, and/or narcissistic traits, seeming suspicious, entitled, and blaming others for their problems.

The angry victim state serves to protect against feelings of humiliation and enhance self-esteem through idealization of the self and externalization of responsibility for negative consequences...

In addition to protecting against feelings of humiliation, the angry victim state fulfills wishes for autonomy and mitigates merger fears. The cost to the patient, however, is isolation and fearfulness. Unlike the helpless victim state, there is no soothing and accepting ideal other to allow space to reflect upon experiences and attributions. Instead, the patient's negative attributions of the other prompt control struggles, i.e. internal conflicts between positive and negative self-images become external conflicts between the grandiose self and the persecutory or shaming other.

Patients in this state frequently utilize substances, such as alcohol or drugs as a substitute for the soothing functions of the ideal other (Johnson, 1993)...

Therapists often feel irritated and devalued by the patient's criticisms and whining complaints. There is a strong impulse to retaliate for the patient's unjust attacks by "setting limits" or giving the patient a "reality check". The therapist may rationalize these interventions as helping to contain the patient's grandiosity and sense of entitlement. However, they end up enacting the patient's expectations for humiliation and rejection by the other and reinforcing the attribution of self as a heroic victim.

...By responding to patient attacks with receptive and non-defensive exploratory comments, the therapist is able to deconstruct the patient's expectations for retaliation, and thereby deconstruct the polarized attributions of self and other upon which those expectations were based.

THE DEMIGOD PERPETRATOR STATE (SELF IS GOOD, SELF IS BAD)

In the demigod perpetrator state, attributions of others lack both agency and value. All agency and value are in the self as an idealized badness and others are of no consequence. Self-esteem is derived from the ability to manipulate and use other people, and relatedness has a detached quality. Antisocial and/or schizoid personality traits predominate. The mood tends to be either elated or blunted.

Patients are likely to enter this state when fears of intrusion or persecution become very strong. When in the demigod perpetrator state, there is no need to be fearful since the self is omnipotent and others are as helpless pawns on a chessboard, to be used, discarded, ignored, or tormented according to the pleasure of the master. There is also gratification from aggressive discharge and sadistic activities...

In this state substances are frequently used to provide soothing, as well as to enhance feelings of elation, detachment, and/or omnipotence. However, the sense of omnipotence combined with frequent substance use leads to repeated retraumatization through physical altercations. Patients may also engage in indiscreet or hypomanic behaviors, which they later regret. These events challenge their sense of agency and omnipotence. It is therefore not uncommon for patients to move rapidly back and forth from this state to either the angry victim state or the guilty perpetrator state.

...Countertransference reactions to this state can vary, ranging from positive to detached to intimidated. Sessions may be jovial and chatty as the therapist and patient share a mood of elation. The therapist may share delight in the patient's exploits, and feel relieved that the patient no longer seems whiny, angry, or depressed. Other feelings can include boredom or detachment as the therapist struggles to elicit any meaningful emotional response from the patient.

Alternatively, the patient's attitude may be controlling, intrusive, and intimidating. In these circumstances, the therapist may feel too frightened or nervous to set limits on the patient's demands and may feel as if s/he is walking on eggshells. By letting him or herself be intimidated, however, the therapist inadvertently reifies the patient's expectations that others are lacking in agency. The therapist is enacting the expectation that others will be unable to contain the patient's destructiveness...

[whiletheseasonspass]

Dear blackandwhite,
Thank you for putting this here.   

I think everyone in the world should throughly understand the Karpman Triangle/ principle.  I had originally studied it on Wikipedia before I was a member of FTC and could not believe my eyes- the explanation- the ways to NOT get engaged.  I already have sent this link - for what you placed here to several people who sure could use these techniques.     

This board is sometimes not so active so perhaps if you can leave it here for a bit of time- those who are fortunate to be busy with Mother's Day weekend plans will see it next week. 

This whole Karpman concept can really come in handy in dealing with BPD's who see us as their persecutors- yet we feel persecuted and we are always guilt ridden to rescue- etc etc.  I WISH I knew about this way way way back- even when I was not in a push pull situation with my ODD dd...and all along as I have FOO members who love to bait others- like me  . 

I think they should teach this stuff in grammar school...

 
wtsp

[qcarolr]

Been a little while since I have posted, but, I found this on the
web while doing some reading on Childhood Parentification.

http://www.angriesout.com/grown20.htm

OTP

I just read this article, and it so fits with much of the work I have been doing with myself. When I first got the restraining order against my DD in Nov. 2009 I was a train-wreck. Posting and reading on the "parents with bpd kids" board has helped me find a path to sanity and some peacefulness in my life. This article really speaks to me that I indeed have lived my life stuck on the drama triangle - often as a persecutor that believed she was being a rescuer - when feeling a victim it was really just a disguise of one of the other roles. This is so hard to admit to - but it is just so clear to me. And some of the greatest pain here is to acknowledge the degree of harm this has done to others in my family - most especially to my bpdDD24. I can so clearly see the patterns of my behaviors that fed her into a victim role  -  feeling helpless and unworthy. And though I the RO has been gone for almost a year and we are rebuilding our relationship - I still cannot have her living in my home with dh and gd5 and I. There is just too much raw pain in the air for her even to visit for a few hours in our home - as we have tried several times over the past year.

And even as I say - DD seems to be in the victim role, well her behavior so often is that of the persecutor. YIKES. So I continue to work at not making things worse. maintain the limited contact and assistance the dh and I have agreed to with her, and continue to focus on healing my own angry responses to life so gd5 can be modeled a new way to live. She deserves the chance to live a healthy life.

Thanks so much for posting this on the 'supporting our kids' board.

qcr xoxo

[qcarolr]

More on The Empowerment Dynamic that Skip mentions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_empowerment_dynamic

The empowerment dynamic (TED*) is goal or outcome oriented and replaces the Drama Triangle roles as follows. In the TED* framework, the Victim shifts into the role of Creator. The Persecutor takes on the role of Challenger, and the Rescuer assumes the new role of Coach. A Creator is someone who stops to think about what they want - what their long-term goal or vision is. Creators are outcome-oriented as opposed to problem-oriented. Problems will always occur, but instead of acting as a Persecutor, the problem now takes on the form of Challenger. A Challenger is a person or situation that forces you to clarify your goal. Challengers encourage us to get clearer about what it is we do want, then focus our efforts towards moving closer to that goal. Emerald calls this Dynamic Tension[1]. Dynamic Tension is the difference between current reality and the envisioned goal or outcome. By taking what Emerald calls Baby Steps a Creator gets closer to and clearer about the goals or outcomes they are trying to create in their lives.

The final role of the TED* triangle is that of Coach. Instead of Rescuing someone, a Coach asks questions that are intended to help the individual to make informed choices. A Rescuer, by definition solves a Victim's problems, which keeps the Victim powerless and dependent upon the aid of others. This is a form of mind-game that can be found in Transactional Analysis[2]. This is a self-perpetuating cycle designed to keep the Victim down and powerless. The key differentiator between a Rescuer and a Coach is that the Coach sees the individual as capable of making choices and of solving their own problems. A Coach asks questions that enable the individual to see the possibilities for positive action, to focus on what they do want instead of what they don't want. Coaches see victims as Creators in their own right and meet them as equals. This process interrupts the drama cycle and puts the former victim in the powerful position of Creator where they make informed choices and focus on outcomes instead of problems.

 So many of the ideas and concepts that i have been exposed to the past year are helping me to refocus myself to this way of thinking. I don't know how efficient my mix 'n match process has been, but the baby steps seem to be starting to work. My life feels so much less chaotic and I see baby steps being taken by eveyone in my little family - dh, gd5 and our limited contact relationship with bpdDD24. I am more and more aware of the dysfunctional coping strategies EACH OF US brings to bear on making our way through a typical day. And I have to say, I can be really loud sometimes and feel very justified in my loudness. I am working to take time-out quicker, use my calming techniques to gain self-control, and come back into the family. I am being able more often to listen quietly to DD24's complaints, be validating of her feelings and ask validating questions to leave things open for her to problem-solve her own issues. THen let go of her outcomes - they are hers, not mine. I just have to keep practicing all this stuff.

Now my greatest wish is to share this with DD24 - without her tearing it up, or texting me to not send her my 'crap' that she is waiting for REAL MAIL. ie. a positive outcome to her SSI appeal to get benefits or the letter with the meeting for orientation to apply for assisted housing. Her complaing today was that bf was feeling angry with her because she is so dependent on him and he doesn't want to be attached to someone that cannot be independent and get a job. (I don't see him having a job - they live homeless together with lots of other homeless in their city park, hoping to avoid illegal camping tickets.!) So I remind myself again to LET IT GO. She has to find her own way, and she is surviving, she is no longer raging or blaming - at least to my face, we have had two weeks in a row of a positive visit time with gd5 - short visits but no anger.

Does anyone have ideas of how to share the idea of being a 'creator' with my bpdDD24 - she hates big words or "pshycology talk".

qcr xoxo

[Auspicious]

Does anyone have ideas of how to share the idea of being a 'creator' with my bpdDD24 - she hates big words or "pshycology talk".

Not sure, but I think the idea here is to not try to change other's actions, or the roles they try to play on the triangle. It's to be self-aware and control where you are in things?

[4kids]

More on The Empowerment Dynamic from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_empowerment_dynamic

And wikipedia has a long page on Transactional Analysis too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis

[truthwillsetyoufree]

Can anyone help with examples of how to move to the center?

[busybee1116]

Can anyone help with examples of how to move to the center?

Ha! You beat me to it, I was just going to ask the exact same thing. 

[zoso80]

Fascinating stuff. Thanks for posting it!

I definitely saw myself and my roles and how they switched. Originally, I was a rescuer. I was the savior and the one who would bring balance to her world. I later became tired and annoyed with the surprises of the disorder and transitioned to the persecutor. The fights became epic during this time.

I'm not proud of how I reacted.

So, in the bpd interaction - the bpd changes during drama from the victim role to the persecutor (getting angry and lashing out at the non) (or the non can get angry that their "rescuing" isn't working and begin persecuting the bpd

This really speaks to me. I became angry any pretext of a functional relationship as I knew it wasn't working. So much was off. Then there were the additional things like dumping primary parental care on me, the intense enmeshment projected on me and always having to placate her with nothing in return. I also transitioned to understanding that her youngest's problems weren't because the child was flawed, it was because mom was disordered. The child was the one exhibiting the stress and strain of it. She was the 'bad' child role.

I became resentful and angry. Especially when after we'd agreed early on, she'd address her mental issues - she later said she was fine and had no problems. A direct contradiction to earlier statements by her.

[dogmama]

Trying to get this into long term memory.  The other article on Karpman Triangle helped because it also talked about "starting gate" positions.

I recently had a big problem with my BPD mother getting my Dad so riled up that he yelled at me in an uncharacteristic major temper tantrum.  I saw it coming.  I had some recent career success that I could tell she couldn't cope with because it'd change the family mythology about my worth.

After Dad's (not BPD as far as I can tell) blow-up, Mom went in for the kill telling me that it was my place to fit in to her view of me and stay there.  Any disagreement on my part is totally unacceptable.  Now, Dad has apologized and asked me not to take my reaction (unfriended Mom on Facebook) to his temper tantrum out on Mom.

In the meantime, I've realized that I need to get out of the childhood fantasy of thinking my family could ever be emotionally supportive of me. Is that moving towards the middle?

[Themis]

So what role is the BPD usually?

I have a confession that I am often in the victim position with him alternating with his ego-boosting hero mode or being nasty and kicking me while I'm down in persecute.

Sometimes I'm rescuing at the same time as being a victim if that makes sense. I've spend portions of the relationship relying on him financially, but at the same time as being emotionally supportive to him.

When he splits me he talks in facts so he earns more or whatever at the time so therefore contributes more, and I'm assuming this but I think it makes him think he has more rights because of the money thing.

[Auspicious]

So what role is the BPD usually?

We can all switch around to the different roles.

I think the main point is to try to be aware, and try to center ourselves - make sure that we don't fall in and get stuck in any role, no matter what the other people do.

Try to stay balanced and centered ourselves - since "me" is the only person that I can control.

[24Paws]

This has been a terrific subject.  I got several great ideas and resources to work on.  I like having the alternative to the Karpman Triangle - the TED model.  I know how hard it is for me to try to change behavior especially in the midst of an emotional episode with my BPD D27.  I can only imagine how much harder it is for her. 

[ennie]

I have always found this so intersting. These roles are unconscious defenses in which create unhealthy family interactions and keep people disconnected and distant. These roles are ways people, in a dysfunctional way, try to stay safe, or feel important and fuel their egos. Participating in the "triangle" ultimately buries people in manipulation, blame, shame,  and addictions to crisis and chaos.

Karpman described these roles using an inverted triangle with the Persecutor and the Rescuer at the top. The two positions at the top are considered the “one-up” positions where the participants feel superior while the Victim is in the “one-down” position feeing looked down upon and helpless.

Skippy

I find the Karpman triangle interesting, and wrote a paper on the topic of the power of the victim in this model.  My experience dealing with my DH's BPDex has really shifted my view on the degree of power the victim experiences.  Also, being a parent informs me in this way.  In a sense, the power of victimhood is the ultimate power, meaning the power of last resort.  It is very powerful, but only to win, not to retain a positive outcome for oneself other than trumping the rescuer or persecutor.  Here is what I mean.  For the BPDmom of my SDs, she was raised in a very abusive home. She is extremely constant in using victimized language, even in a persecutor role.   She is very attached to the role of victim, though she often is playing all three roles at once or at least attempting it...   yelling at someone that they ruined her life while giving in and telling him she is willing to do anything for him but they do nothing for her.   But in her descriptions, she played this role as a child to get out of terrible abuse.  I see shadows of this in her two girls, too.  The victim has two powers in a powerless situation.  First, there is power over those in a rescuer role.  If the rescuer wants to rescue (and my T calls parenthood a "mandatory rescue"), you can deprive the parent of that power by being a victim beyond rescue.  My SD8 mimics mom and plays this role at times when she is in a lot of pain over her relationship with mom.  She does not want to be touched, insists that Dh and my love is hurting her and she just wants us to go away, says she wants to die.  How painful to be a parent and to be able to do nothing.  In a less intense context, I see many young children gravitate to this role naturally when parents are in charge in a way that feels unfair to a child. 

A second power is over the persecutor.  To gain power over the persecutor, you have to show them that nothing they do can hurt you.  That I think is where some dissociative mental illness can originate, including personality disorders, PTSD, etc.  To get a person to stop hurting you by not reacting or by acting like it is not powerful takes a lot of denial of one's actual experience.  I think BPD mom use this with her mom and mom's abusive BFs.  The words she uses now are that everyone hates her, that "you hate me anyway, so why should I treat you well?"  A willingness to constantly fail and blame others, rather than taking steps to have a good life.  For example, it seems whenever she tries to get more time with the kids through the courts or mediation, she almost always has some mishap...   last time, two weeks before her court date in legal action she initiated, she got a DUI.  When she wanted a job at the school, she showed up at a school even drunk and yelling.  She then totally justifies these acts irrationally, denies them, to such an extreme degree that it is believable just in it strangeness, or she is so pitiably and appears so helpless that people have sympathy for her.  There is also an effect that she flails so badly, that no-one can imagine that DH does not already have full custody, so people imagine there must be something wrong with him, too.  If you act like a totally incompetent victim, people tend to take your side, so you are more effective at obtaining outside allies. 

The risk of these powerful strategies is that in the victim role, as with each of these roles, you harm yourself as well as others, but in the victim role the risk is profound, including in extreme cases the risk to your own life, including risks of suicide, in my SD's BPD mom's case, risk of death in drunk driving, many job losses, etc.  So it is worth it when you have a mom who is willing to beat you as this strategy may save your life, and it does have power to trump the power of persecutor or rescuer.  It is also a much more controlled power--rescuer is a vulnerable place to be, and persecutor is often very out of control and condemned by society.  But it is the manipulative power with the greatest price. 

[Iced]

Fair warning, this is going to be a rather long post.  Also, if I have used terms incorrectly, please feel free to correct me so I can correct myself and learn better.

Firstly, to address the question about the helpfulness or usefulness of understanding the concept of triangulation - specifically Karpman in understanding drama-related triangles, I want to say that in my opinion, potentially, the most beneficial use of understanding triangulation is to:

1)  Simply understand what is going on on a basic model-based level.

I will be upfront and honest.  I personally hate gossip and I really do not do well with 'groups' of friends.

Why?

I have had experience dealing with multiple forms of triangulation from the more innocuous to the more malicious and though I never had words for it (I never knew what triangulation was and that it had a name until I started therapy years before; my psyD explained it to me when I expressed constant frustration and aggravation at encountering such situations), I definitely could see a pattern and boy oh boy did it bother me.

Excuse me, but I don't need to know something akin to, "Oh hey, did you know that Bill's screwing Jill and 'whine whine whine'," when I am friends with both Bill and Jill and neither Bill nor Jill thought to tell me this fact for themselves though we ARE friends and have interacted as such.  It isn't that it's TMI, it's the fact that I simply respect both Bill and Jill to tell me something important if it pertains to me.  Neither Bill nor Jill are my SOs or are people I am interested in, so why would it matter if they're together?  Perhaps more importantly, why in the world did Adam bother telling me something like that in the first place?

In Real Life, such a thing did happen and 'Adam', it turns out, was feeling put out that 'Jill' had chosen 'Bill' over him and was trying to gain my sympathy and support and to also hopefully instill some sense of animosity in me towards the new couple.  Neither of the two worked and I politely told 'Adam' that if he had issues about the whole situation (which, it really seemed like he did), then he ought to be talking to the new couple and not me.  Thing is, he was never the 'direct' sort and 'direct' communication was never his forte and so he consistently chose to communicate in more indirect and obfuscated manners.

In another example (I couldn't find my other old post or the Triangulation thread where I had typed out a diagram of a Karpman triangulation scene involving the evolving roles of Victims, Rescuers, Persecutors etc within a circle of friends):

[Becoming a Rescuer] I once had a friend who all but idolized me to the point where they more or less acted like I could never do wrong...  even though I always outed myself as any other human being who makes mistakes...  and even though I wanted nothing to do with that role.

I didn't necessarily see my friendship with them as me wanting to 'rescue' them, but I certainly did want to offer support and 'be a friend' in general.  Being that I was - at the time - generally unaware and non-communicative with their other friends and whatevers and being that our friendship didn't start out with drama, it also contributed to my late realization that I was tangled in a Karpman-type drama triangle.

[Becoming a Persecutor] Later as time went on and I confronted them on some issues and put my foot down on some boundaries, they kind of sulked and unbeknownst to me until later, they ran to our mutual friends to get support from all the horrible things that had come from me...  without addressing the situation with me AT ALL in any kind of an honest fashion.  Once they ran and were in the 'safety' of our other friends, they turned around to verbally abuse me.

By setting my foot down on boundaries and 'triggering' the hurt they had once experienced in regards to notions of abandonment, I went from being their Rescuer to being their next Persecutor.

The fact that I was left in the dark about their running to our mutual friends and badmouthing me is of particular importance in the fact that it demonstrates their unwillingness to cope with the issue (having issues with me) in a healthier and more straightforward manner.

Bowen would say - to my understanding - that they did this to escape the stress and abandonment fear they experienced owing to the triggering of said abandonment issues.  In this case because of the avoidance of dealing with the actual issue (fear of abandonment even though I wasn't about to 'abandon' them) and because of scapegoating (blaming me for every problem they had instead of addressing their attachment disordered way of thinking and feeling), this sort of triangulation would be considered dysfunctional.

Hence, also, a Karpman drama-related triangle.

[Becoming a Victim] Confused as %^$# as to what had happened and reeling from the drama that had ensued, I felt really wounded...  and with no explanations or understandings.

Easy one.  I felt victimized because I couldn't understand why in the world would someone who was once so formerly close to me choose to attack me in such ways without any kind of previous discussion about issues they might have had with me.

[Becoming Recycle Material aka the Triangle Restarts Again] And so the cycle continued when eventually, my former fwBPD attempted to return to me to share their latest drama about their new perpetrator and to gain my sympathy and support.  

Specifically, when a mutual friend (the only one left of that group of friends whom I still kept in contact with) finally put their foot down on boundaries, they, too, went from Rescuer (they were the one who the fwBPD used to hide behind and idolized in much the same way they once idolized me) to Persecutor (they set off the abandonment trigger) and Victim (as the former fwBPD painted them black...  ) and RAN BACK TO ME wanting my support in regards to their latest drama.

The cycle of recycling never started as I ended-ended everything at that point and though they have since made attempted repeats at trying to reconnect with either me or our mutual friend (who doesn't consider them a friend anymore either), neither of us has 'participated'.

The Karpman triangulation, in this case, has thus come to an end.

All that said, you don't know what you don't know and before this incident, I didn't even know that there was a name for such a behavior in the first place.

Having a name for it simply made it easier for me to just be able to SAY, "Okay, THIS is what it is.  Now what can I do about it?"

Related to that...  

2)  Using this understanding to better understand ourselves and the situations we are in or show a pattern for getting into.

If you burned your hand on a hot toaster or a hot oven, it's logical to say that in the pursuit of NOT being burned again, you probably wouldn't touch a hot toaster or a hot oven again.

But what if you were walking through a forest and something bit you, but you couldn't tell what it was?  In the pursuit of not being bitten again, it perhaps would make sense that one might avoid the situation where being bitten happened - namely, the forest.  But on the other hand, sounds a bit silly to avoid any and all forests given that it was something IN the forest (in this example, a fictitious snake whose nest was disturbed by people running around and who bit out of self defense) that bit you and not the forest itself.

Knowledge is power and being able to identify and understand a situation gives a person the ability to make a better informed decision on what to do next or how to deal...  

And depending on the person, how they choose to handle a situation will be different from person to person.

At this point in my life after having a name for triangulation behaviors and an understanding for why some of these behaviors happen from the most innocent to the more malicious, I am better able to rationally identify it, classify it...  and then act accordingly.

If someone is triangulating because they are avoiding a situation involving me and the situation overall is 'innocent' enough and maybe something that can be worked on (eg: a co-worker has problems with me but can't seem to talk with me about it and so talks to another mutual co-worker about their problems with me), knowing about the triangulating gives me an opportunity to try and address the issue of avoidance.  In some cases, this movement towards directly addressing the issue can mark the end of such a triangulation.

If someone is triangulating because they are avoiding a situation involving me in the manner of my former fwBPD, then knowing about the triangulating helps me to understand that it is a coping reaction and mechanism and to be able to potentially anticipate what may happen next and simply be prepared for it...  and be prepared to make a decision to forcibly end my part in the triangulation if need be if the original/actual issues at hand cannot be addressed in a healthy manner.

That said, realizing that my fwBPD was engaging the Karpman dramatic triangle out of a disordered-influenced emotional response to the triggering of abandonment topic(s) was actually instrumental in my own healing.

Without knowledge, I was going, "Why did this happen?  WHAT happened?  AM I some kind of godawful monster?  WHY did I go from best friend to worst enemy?  WHAT did I do wrong?"

With knowledge I realized, "I stepped on a trigger by putting my foot down on boundaries.  Feeling threatened and unable to cope with directly dealing with the emotions triggered, they reacted by shunning me/refusing to deal with me, getting support from someone else, and perpetuating their 'I can't deal with this!' mindset/giving themselves the opportunity to not have to deal with the problem by blaming someone else for the issues that cropped up."

The triangulation in this case, is largely a defense mechanism and also largely if not fully emotion-based.

The questions I asked were questions that confounded my sense of logic; everything has a logical answer (or so I thought), and if someone reacts so poorly to me/with me, then logic dictates that something I did was at fault and if the accusations continue and there is nothing contrary (besides my own WTF), then logic continues to dictate that somehow in the grand scheme of things, I was wrong and did something really bad.

But fight or flight and highly emotional reactions are seldom infused with much logic and so there may not be any actual 'logical' response to the questions and sort of as a rehash of my mental thought process, this is what my therapist worked out with me.

Why did it happen?  It was a fight or flight and highly emotional response.

What happened?  Your friend reacted emotionally and defensively in a negative way and instead of directly addressing the issue with you, they went to someone else who felt 'safer' and who could 'rescue' them from the pain they felt.

Am I some kind of godawful monster?  No, you simply stepped on a highly sensitive trigger.  Setting boundaries is healthy and so is communicating them honestly when done in a respectful manner.

Why did I go from best friend to worst enemy?  Because at the time of their emotional reaction, they felt ultimately wounded because their abandonment fears were triggered and they couldn't or wouldn't deal with it in a healthier manner.  You triggered it, so you became the 'enemy'.  A 'quick' way for a disordered attachment person to 'heal' from having their trigger triggered.

What did I do wrong?  At the time, nothing.  You inadvertently stepped on the trigger related to abandonment even though abandonment was not the intent.  Basically, you broke an eggshell.

Emotional responses.  All the way through.

And to me?

If isn't fair to compare a logical thought process stemming from rational thinking with a thought process stemming from disordered thinking and feeling.

I can rationally approach someone who is rational-thinking but who might simply be scared (aren't we all) to get a topic addressed directly.

I cannot rationally approach someone who is not rational-thinking and who is responding out of near pure emotion to get a topic addressed directly much less 'honestly'.

It's why BPD IS a disorder and it is also why I feel that it doesn't do any good to ruminate on it (past the point of understanding on a basic and diagram-level what is going on) and to keep trying to find a 'logical' answer to it all which goes hand in hand with accountability.

Disordered thinking and thought processing and dysregulated emotions which contribute to a high level of emotional-only responses ARE disorders.

As such, to me, understanding and remembering this is crucial if a person wants to start or continue a relationship with someone who has these disorders...  and actually give it a fair and fighting chance from both sides.

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