PERSPECTIVES: Conflict dynamics / Karpman Triangle

[Auspicious]

Also, for me it was a great big   when I realized that when my mother, as a BPD sufferer who equates facts with feelings, FEELS victimized, she will find or create a Persecutor and a Rescuer, to complete the triangle. So from her own, internal, not-based-on-anything-in-the-external-world feeling, an entire triangle trap is created. She would seek me and others out to complete the play. It took a lot of awareness not to enter the triangle.

Good point A useful thing to watch for .

[random]

The trouble is in our relationships with BPD sufferers, we get pulled into the triangle and perhaps have trouble distinguishing the truth of the situation (actually rescuing or enabling? setting boundaries or persecuting? being mistreated or acting the victim?).

That's a really important point. And sometimes the situation will have elements of both dysfunctional role-play and real actions. Because life is messy    For instance, in my case, I was actually being mistreated BUT I was also accepting mistreatment and submitting to inordinate amounts of control by another person. I entered the situations willingly and gave my power away in hopes of finally having the parent/family I always dreamed of.

And I'm starting to see that it's not wrong to want to have a family, to not feel alone in the world, to know that if you are sick or in trouble, you have people to ask for help. But it IS wrong to enter into relationships where the price for having those things is accepting the unacceptable and compromising myself as a person by accepting abuse.


With regards to Persecutorship, when a BPD person is accusing you of being one, they are actually Persecuting. It seems to me that there is a very sneaky abuse tactic that BPD folks often use, and that is bringing up a grievance. In theory, all things being equal, a person has a right to complain about something you are doing that is upsetting them. BUT. This social contract is something that gets twisted and used maliciously - like, my mother would constantly pick at everything I said and did, and how I said and did it, and the idea wasn't really that I was doing something that upset her. She complained in order to make me defend myself and in order to assert authority. Meanwhile, she was playing the victim. And when she started escalating her complaints into raging and I would try to leave the room, she would scream, "I HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY THIS TO YOU!"

At first, this confused me so much and tied my brain into sailor knots, because I was pretty sure that I was just verbally abused and harassed, but then it does seem like a person should be able to talk about something you are doing that bothers them. Then I came to this conclusion: no, you don't have a right to constantly complain about my behaviour if the intent behind your complaining is malicious and aimed at harassing me, rather than at resolving the situation that is bothering them. It's the interpersonal equivalent of a person who sues everyone in sight - they are using a system unfairly and not in the spirit in which it was intended.

[Auspicious]

It's the interpersonal equivalent of a person who sues everyone in sight - they are using a system unfairly and not in the spirit in which it was intended.

Excellent analogy.

[Skip]

Recognizing the dynamics and admitting your place in the triangle is the first step. Now you need an action plan on how to change things.

Another antidote or escape from the Drama Triangle is know as TED (The Empowerment Dynamic), created by David Womeldorff. The Empowerment Dynamic has corresponding roles to each of those played out in the Drama Triangle.

• Victim shifts to Creator,

• Persecutor shifts to Challenger, and

• Rescuer shifts to Coach.

[Ice Man]

Nicest one. Great article. I find there are thin lines between the three. Really hard to know when you're rescuing dogs from street, is it enabling? Dam, it's so hard to be correct.

[Busybee]

I feel I only ever played the rescuer role with my BP friend. I guess he brought it out of me? I never really tried to save anyone before. I've done some mentoring but nothing so intense...

[doinwhatshecan]

  One cannot "rescue" someone from their past victimization - the person has to heal that - not get "rescued" from it.

This really speaks to me-- I attributed much of my exbpdh's negativity to his past, and believed that if I could "save" him from that our life together would be normal and sane.

I learned to enter the triangle from the rescue position in my FOO.

[blackandwhite]

More on The Empowerment Dynamic that Skip mentions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_empowerment_dynamic

The Empowerment Dynamic (TED) stands as an alternative to The Drama Triangle. The drama triangle is a psychological and social model of human interaction in transactional analysis  (TA) first described by Stephen Karpman in 1968. The drama triangle is used in psychology and psychotherapy to describe the insidious way in which victims, persecutors, and rescuers get caught in a cycle that is hard to escape. For many years, the key to escaping this triangle was thought to be awareness plus willpower. However, there was no clear alternative to the drama triangle. In 2005, David Emerald (aka Womeldorff) published a short book called The Power of TED* to provide a new model that offers an antidote to and escape from Karpman's drama triangle. TED* involves three key roles that correspond to the roles found in the drama triangle. In the drama triangle, the major role is known as the Victim. The Victim is someone who sees life as happening to them and who feels powerless to change their circumstances. Victims place the blame for their status on a Persecutor, who can be a person or a situation. Being powerless, the Victim seeks a Rescuer to solve the problem for them. This dynamic is cyclical and repeats as one problem replaces another, creating a roller-coaster effect of tension and relief in a person's life. These roles are intrinsic to the idea of Victimhood or, as David Emerald describes it, the Victim Orientation.

The empowerment dynamic (TED*) is goal or outcome oriented and replaces the Drama Triangle roles as follows. In the TED* framework, the Victim shifts into the role of Creator. The Persecutor takes on the role of Challenger, and the Rescuer assumes the new role of Coach. A Creator is someone who stops to think about what they want - what their long-term goal or vision is. Creators are outcome-oriented as opposed to problem-oriented. Problems will always occur, but instead of acting as a Persecutor, the problem now takes on the form of Challenger. A Challenger is a person or situation that forces you to clarify your goal. Challengers encourage us to get clearer about what it is we do want, then focus our efforts towards moving closer to that goal. Emerald calls this Dynamic Tension[1]. Dynamic Tension is the difference between current reality and the envisioned goal or outcome. By taking what Emerald calls Baby Steps a Creator gets closer to and clearer about the goals or outcomes they are trying to create in their lives.

The final role of the TED* triangle is that of Coach. Instead of Rescuing someone, a Coach asks questions that are intended to help the individual to make informed choices. A Rescuer, by definition solves a Victim's problems, which keeps the Victim powerless and dependent upon the aid of others. This is a form of mind-game that can be found in Transactional Analysis[2]. This is a self-perpetuating cycle designed to keep the Victim down and powerless. The key differentiator between a Rescuer and a Coach is that the Coach sees the individual as capable of making choices and of solving their own problems. A Coach asks questions that enable the individual to see the possibilities for positive action, to focus on what they do want instead of what they don't want. Coaches see victims as Creators in their own right and meet them as equals. This process interrupts the drama cycle and puts the former victim in the powerful position of Creator where they make informed choices and focus on outcomes instead of problems.

[1q2w3e]

I've just ordered the book 'The Power of TED' http://www.powerofted.com/ and look forward to reading it.

On the drama triangle, I've certainly played the role of victim to UBPDW's persecutor, and I want to end that toxic dynamic.  It's interesting that within the past few weeks, I've had some moments of strength and clarity, where I can start wrapping my head around the idea of creating goals for myself, becoming more pro-active in my life, and less reactionary to W's drama and chaos.  Granted, the moments are fleeting, but I do sense that I'm making some progress.

I also sense that our changing to a healthier dynamic (i.e., victim to creator, persecutor to challenger, rescuer to coach) can facilitate the ability for us to set and maintain appropriate boundaries...and perhaps it's all really intertwined as part of a positive, upward cycle on our individual paths to better emotional health?

blackandwhite, am I on the right track with this?

[blackandwhite]

Here's an excerpt of another formulation related to the drama triangle. This one describes four roles ("states") that a person with Borderline Personality Disorder is likely to play, and the way that others (in particular therapists, but we can also consider how these states impact partners and family members) are likely to respond. The author looks at these states in terms of value, agency, and attribution--who has power (in the person's mind) and who is good or bad (in the person's mind).

Excerpted from: "Borderline Attributions," by Robert J. Gregory, Robert J. American Journal of Psychotherapy, 2007, Vol. 61 Issue 2, p131-147, 17p

Four States: Helpless Victim, Guilty Perpetrator, Angry Victim, Demigod Perpetrator

[There are]...four common states of borderline personality disorder, i.e. helpless victim, guilty perpetrator, angry victim, and demigod perpetrator. Each state of being is characterized by a predominant motivation for either dependency or autonomy and assignment of polarized attributions of value and agency to self and others. The rigid and polarized attributions within each state lead to well-defined expectations for the self and how others will respond to self. Moreover, since others frequently feel compelled to respond in a manner consistent with those expectations, the net result is a self-perpetuating, stereotypical, and repetitive pattern of interpersonal relatedness.

THE HELPLESS VICTIM STATE (OTHER IS GOOD, OTHER IS BAD)

In the helpless victim state of being, both agency and value are assigned to others. Self-image is as an innocent and helpless child, whereas other people are split into either all good and powerful or all bad and powerful images, thereby creating a triadic relational system analogous to Karpman's (1968) drama triangle of victim, rescuer, and persecutor.

This state allows patients to maintain self-esteem through shifting the locus of responsibility for negative consequences from self to others. It also satisfies the patient's need for unification with an idealized caregiver, though at the cost of undercutting the patients' sense of power and autonomy.

Countertransference reactions to patients in this state are very positive, assuming that the therapist is on the good side of the binary attribution of value. [To help]...The therapist partially gratifies dependency wishes by a warm and soothing manner in the role of the ideal other, while also supporting the patient's independent decision-making and creative exploration of his/her unique attributes...

THE GUILTY PERPETRATOR STATE (SELF IS BAD, OTHER IS GOOD)

The guilty perpetrator state is characterized by depression and hopelessness. Self-image is very negative and assumes total responsibility for every bad thing that ever happened. Persons perceive themselves as inadequate, defective, evil, and/or a hopeless case, i.e. "I'm just this crazy person who will never get better, so I might as well end things right now." There is a significant risk of suicide.

Separation fears and/or fears of retaliation for attempts to differentiate the self through assertiveness commonly trigger the guilty perpetrator state (Rogers et al., 1995). It serves to maintain attachment in a conflicted relationship by owning the blame (i.e. sense of agency) for any difficulties. It represents a last ditch effort to hold onto an untarnished image of the ideal other in the context of emerging feelings of anger and resentment. For example, the guilty perpetrator state often follows a therapist's vacation or an incident of physical abuse from a spouse.

Self-destructive behaviors, such as cutting or overdose, are common in this state, serving as symbolic atonement for self-perceived badness and thus, relieve dysphoria. These behaviors also serve to displace aggressive impulses that might otherwise jeopardize a relationship.

...The therapist is in the awkward position of being stuck in the role of the idealized rescuer, but having no agency. For example, the patient might state, "I know you mean well, but nothing seems to be working. I'm so depressed and need some help!"...The therapist must avoid enactment of the role of the rescuer, regain agency, and challenge the patient's self-perception of irredeemable badness. This may include refraining from excessive interventions and/or by pointing out ways that the patient is choosing not to not participate fully in treatment.

THE ANGRY VICTIM STATE (SELF IS GOOD, OTHER IS BAD)

In this state, agency is given to others, who are seen as persecutory. The patient's self-image is idealized as the heroic victim who endures life's trials. The slogan is "I can't soar like an eagle when I'm surrounded by turkeys."

Mood is irritable, as patients feel justified in denigrating the many people, including the therapist, who are giving them a hard time. Patients' behavior is frequently demeaning, controlling, and intrusive. They have prominent paranoid, obsessive, and/or narcissistic traits, seeming suspicious, entitled, and blaming others for their problems.

The angry victim state serves to protect against feelings of humiliation and enhance self-esteem through idealization of the self and externalization of responsibility for negative consequences...

In addition to protecting against feelings of humiliation, the angry victim state fulfills wishes for autonomy and mitigates merger fears. The cost to the patient, however, is isolation and fearfulness. Unlike the helpless victim state, there is no soothing and accepting ideal other to allow space to reflect upon experiences and attributions. Instead, the patient's negative attributions of the other prompt control struggles, i.e. internal conflicts between positive and negative self-images become external conflicts between the grandiose self and the persecutory or shaming other.

Patients in this state frequently utilize substances, such as alcohol or drugs as a substitute for the soothing functions of the ideal other (Johnson, 1993)...

Therapists often feel irritated and devalued by the patient's criticisms and whining complaints. There is a strong impulse to retaliate for the patient's unjust attacks by "setting limits" or giving the patient a "reality check". The therapist may rationalize these interventions as helping to contain the patient's grandiosity and sense of entitlement. However, they end up enacting the patient's expectations for humiliation and rejection by the other and reinforcing the attribution of self as a heroic victim.

...By responding to patient attacks with receptive and non-defensive exploratory comments, the therapist is able to deconstruct the patient's expectations for retaliation, and thereby deconstruct the polarized attributions of self and other upon which those expectations were based.

THE DEMIGOD PERPETRATOR STATE (SELF IS GOOD, SELF IS BAD)

In the demigod perpetrator state, attributions of others lack both agency and value. All agency and value are in the self as an idealized badness and others are of no consequence. Self-esteem is derived from the ability to manipulate and use other people, and relatedness has a detached quality. Antisocial and/or schizoid personality traits predominate. The mood tends to be either elated or blunted.

Patients are likely to enter this state when fears of intrusion or persecution become very strong. When in the demigod perpetrator state, there is no need to be fearful since the self is omnipotent and others are as helpless pawns on a chessboard, to be used, discarded, ignored, or tormented according to the pleasure of the master. There is also gratification from aggressive discharge and sadistic activities...

In this state substances are frequently used to provide soothing, as well as to enhance feelings of elation, detachment, and/or omnipotence. However, the sense of omnipotence combined with frequent substance use leads to repeated retraumatization through physical altercations. Patients may also engage in indiscreet or hypomanic behaviors, which they later regret. These events challenge their sense of agency and omnipotence. It is therefore not uncommon for patients to move rapidly back and forth from this state to either the angry victim state or the guilty perpetrator state.

...Countertransference reactions to this state can vary, ranging from positive to detached to intimidated. Sessions may be jovial and chatty as the therapist and patient share a mood of elation. The therapist may share delight in the patient's exploits, and feel relieved that the patient no longer seems whiny, angry, or depressed. Other feelings can include boredom or detachment as the therapist struggles to elicit any meaningful emotional response from the patient.

Alternatively, the patient's attitude may be controlling, intrusive, and intimidating. In these circumstances, the therapist may feel too frightened or nervous to set limits on the patient's demands and may feel as if s/he is walking on eggshells. By letting him or herself be intimidated, however, the therapist inadvertently reifies the patient's expectations that others are lacking in agency. The therapist is enacting the expectation that others will be unable to contain the patient's destructiveness...

[whiletheseasonspass]

Dear blackandwhite,
Thank you for putting this here.   

I think everyone in the world should throughly understand the Karpman Triangle/ principle.  I had originally studied it on Wikipedia before I was a member of FTC and could not believe my eyes- the explanation- the ways to NOT get engaged.  I already have sent this link - for what you placed here to several people who sure could use these techniques.     

This board is sometimes not so active so perhaps if you can leave it here for a bit of time- those who are fortunate to be busy with Mother's Day weekend plans will see it next week. 

This whole Karpman concept can really come in handy in dealing with BPD's who see us as their persecutors- yet we feel persecuted and we are always guilt ridden to rescue- etc etc.  I WISH I knew about this way way way back- even when I was not in a push pull situation with my ODD dd...and all along as I have FOO members who love to bait others- like me  . 

I think they should teach this stuff in grammar school...

 
wtsp

[qcarolr]

Been a little while since I have posted, but, I found this on the
web while doing some reading on Childhood Parentification.

http://www.angriesout.com/grown20.htm

OTP

I just read this article, and it so fits with much of the work I have been doing with myself. When I first got the restraining order against my DD in Nov. 2009 I was a train-wreck. Posting and reading on the "parents with bpd kids" board has helped me find a path to sanity and some peacefulness in my life. This article really speaks to me that I indeed have lived my life stuck on the drama triangle - often as a persecutor that believed she was being a rescuer - when feeling a victim it was really just a disguise of one of the other roles. This is so hard to admit to - but it is just so clear to me. And some of the greatest pain here is to acknowledge the degree of harm this has done to others in my family - most especially to my bpdDD24. I can so clearly see the patterns of my behaviors that fed her into a victim role  -  feeling helpless and unworthy. And though I the RO has been gone for almost a year and we are rebuilding our relationship - I still cannot have her living in my home with dh and gd5 and I. There is just too much raw pain in the air for her even to visit for a few hours in our home - as we have tried several times over the past year.

And even as I say - DD seems to be in the victim role, well her behavior so often is that of the persecutor. YIKES. So I continue to work at not making things worse. maintain the limited contact and assistance the dh and I have agreed to with her, and continue to focus on healing my own angry responses to life so gd5 can be modeled a new way to live. She deserves the chance to live a healthy life.

Thanks so much for posting this on the 'supporting our kids' board.

qcr xoxo

[qcarolr]

More on The Empowerment Dynamic that Skip mentions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_empowerment_dynamic

The empowerment dynamic (TED*) is goal or outcome oriented and replaces the Drama Triangle roles as follows. In the TED* framework, the Victim shifts into the role of Creator. The Persecutor takes on the role of Challenger, and the Rescuer assumes the new role of Coach. A Creator is someone who stops to think about what they want - what their long-term goal or vision is. Creators are outcome-oriented as opposed to problem-oriented. Problems will always occur, but instead of acting as a Persecutor, the problem now takes on the form of Challenger. A Challenger is a person or situation that forces you to clarify your goal. Challengers encourage us to get clearer about what it is we do want, then focus our efforts towards moving closer to that goal. Emerald calls this Dynamic Tension[1]. Dynamic Tension is the difference between current reality and the envisioned goal or outcome. By taking what Emerald calls Baby Steps a Creator gets closer to and clearer about the goals or outcomes they are trying to create in their lives.

The final role of the TED* triangle is that of Coach. Instead of Rescuing someone, a Coach asks questions that are intended to help the individual to make informed choices. A Rescuer, by definition solves a Victim's problems, which keeps the Victim powerless and dependent upon the aid of others. This is a form of mind-game that can be found in Transactional Analysis[2]. This is a self-perpetuating cycle designed to keep the Victim down and powerless. The key differentiator between a Rescuer and a Coach is that the Coach sees the individual as capable of making choices and of solving their own problems. A Coach asks questions that enable the individual to see the possibilities for positive action, to focus on what they do want instead of what they don't want. Coaches see victims as Creators in their own right and meet them as equals. This process interrupts the drama cycle and puts the former victim in the powerful position of Creator where they make informed choices and focus on outcomes instead of problems.

 So many of the ideas and concepts that i have been exposed to the past year are helping me to refocus myself to this way of thinking. I don't know how efficient my mix 'n match process has been, but the baby steps seem to be starting to work. My life feels so much less chaotic and I see baby steps being taken by eveyone in my little family - dh, gd5 and our limited contact relationship with bpdDD24. I am more and more aware of the dysfunctional coping strategies EACH OF US brings to bear on making our way through a typical day. And I have to say, I can be really loud sometimes and feel very justified in my loudness. I am working to take time-out quicker, use my calming techniques to gain self-control, and come back into the family. I am being able more often to listen quietly to DD24's complaints, be validating of her feelings and ask validating questions to leave things open for her to problem-solve her own issues. THen let go of her outcomes - they are hers, not mine. I just have to keep practicing all this stuff.

Now my greatest wish is to share this with DD24 - without her tearing it up, or texting me to not send her my 'crap' that she is waiting for REAL MAIL. ie. a positive outcome to her SSI appeal to get benefits or the letter with the meeting for orientation to apply for assisted housing. Her complaing today was that bf was feeling angry with her because she is so dependent on him and he doesn't want to be attached to someone that cannot be independent and get a job. (I don't see him having a job - they live homeless together with lots of other homeless in their city park, hoping to avoid illegal camping tickets.!) So I remind myself again to LET IT GO. She has to find her own way, and she is surviving, she is no longer raging or blaming - at least to my face, we have had two weeks in a row of a positive visit time with gd5 - short visits but no anger.

Does anyone have ideas of how to share the idea of being a 'creator' with my bpdDD24 - she hates big words or "pshycology talk".

qcr xoxo

[Auspicious]

Does anyone have ideas of how to share the idea of being a 'creator' with my bpdDD24 - she hates big words or "pshycology talk".

Not sure, but I think the idea here is to not try to change other's actions, or the roles they try to play on the triangle. It's to be self-aware and control where you are in things?

[4kids]

More on The Empowerment Dynamic from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_empowerment_dynamic

And wikipedia has a long page on Transactional Analysis too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis

[Rhymes w/Orange]

Can anyone help with examples of how to move to the center?

[busybee1116]

Can anyone help with examples of how to move to the center?

Ha! You beat me to it, I was just going to ask the exact same thing. 

[zoso80]

Fascinating stuff. Thanks for posting it!

I definitely saw myself and my roles and how they switched. Originally, I was a rescuer. I was the savior and the one who would bring balance to her world. I later became tired and annoyed with the surprises of the disorder and transitioned to the persecutor. The fights became epic during this time.

I'm not proud of how I reacted.

So, in the bpd interaction - the bpd changes during drama from the victim role to the persecutor (getting angry and lashing out at the non) (or the non can get angry that their "rescuing" isn't working and begin persecuting the bpd

This really speaks to me. I became angry any pretext of a functional relationship as I knew it wasn't working. So much was off. Then there were the additional things like dumping primary parental care on me, the intense enmeshment projected on me and always having to placate her with nothing in return. I also transitioned to understanding that her youngest's problems weren't because the child was flawed, it was because mom was disordered. The child was the one exhibiting the stress and strain of it. She was the 'bad' child role.

I became resentful and angry. Especially when after we'd agreed early on, she'd address her mental issues - she later said she was fine and had no problems. A direct contradiction to earlier statements by her.

[dogmama]

Trying to get this into long term memory.  The other article on Karpman Triangle helped because it also talked about "starting gate" positions.

I recently had a big problem with my BPD mother getting my Dad so riled up that he yelled at me in an uncharacteristic major temper tantrum.  I saw it coming.  I had some recent career success that I could tell she couldn't cope with because it'd change the family mythology about my worth.

After Dad's (not BPD as far as I can tell) blow-up, Mom went in for the kill telling me that it was my place to fit in to her view of me and stay there.  Any disagreement on my part is totally unacceptable.  Now, Dad has apologized and asked me not to take my reaction (unfriended Mom on Facebook) to his temper tantrum out on Mom.

In the meantime, I've realized that I need to get out of the childhood fantasy of thinking my family could ever be emotionally supportive of me. Is that moving towards the middle?

[Themis]

So what role is the BPD usually?

I have a confession that I am often in the victim position with him alternating with his ego-boosting hero mode or being nasty and kicking me while I'm down in persecute.

Sometimes I'm rescuing at the same time as being a victim if that makes sense. I've spend portions of the relationship relying on him financially, but at the same time as being emotionally supportive to him.

When he splits me he talks in facts so he earns more or whatever at the time so therefore contributes more, and I'm assuming this but I think it makes him think he has more rights because of the money thing.