PERSPECTIVES: Conflict dynamics / Karpman Triangle

[blackandwhite]

Our Dysfunctional Roles with Others

This purpose of this workshop is to discuss the dynamics of difficult family and partner relationships and how we become caught up in them.

The Karpman  Triangle, described by Stephen Karpman and elaborated by many others, is a very useful tool for understanding "stuck" relationship dynamics. The idea is that we often find ourselves playing out scripts. These roles feel safe, as they are familiar; we slip into as comfortable as we sink into the us-shaped indent in our own beds. But they are very limiting. They keep us trapped.

The triangle in its simple form consists of three roles:



The roles are Persecutor, Victim, and Rescuer. We may start in one position, but as another (or others) shift around the triangle, so do we.

The Persecutor insists, "It's all your fault." The Persecutor is controlling, blaming, critical, oppressive, angry, authoritative, rigid, and superior.

The Victim is of course persecuted. The Victim's stance is "Poor me!" The Victim feels victimized, oppressed, helpless, hopeless, powerless, ashamed, and seems unable to make decisions, solve problems, take pleasure in life, or achieve insight. The Victim, if not being persecuted, will seek out a Persecutor and also a Rescuer who will "save" the day but also perpetuate the Victim's negative feelings.

The Rescuer's line is "Let me help you." A classic enabler, the Rescuer feels guilty if he/she doesn't rescue. Yet his/her rescuing has negative effects: It keeps the Victim dependent and gives the Victim permission to fail. It also keeps the Rescuer stuck in focusing energy on someone else's problems, not solving his/her own.

(For a fuller discussion of the triangle, see "The Three Faces of Victim" at http://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108384.0.)

[sunstar*]

My understanding is that these positions are not stable. So for example if you play the role of the Rescuer and the other person plays the role of the Victim, then sooner or later you are going to feel resentful towards the Victim and you could end placed in the role of Victim to their Persecutor.

To an extent I can see that played out with my own BPmother. My mother is a BP Queen, so she regards herself as nobodies Victim. Quite the opposite in that she likes nothing better than to find people who are in some way weaker than her and see herself in the role of their Rescuer, but as a result ultimately they end up feeling like her subject or Victim!

Anyway, earlier in the year she broke her arm and for the first time in my life I saw her as the more vulnerable one and did all I could to help and support her during that time. Looking back I realise how much more pleasant she was during that time, so much more humble and human! Now eight months on she is all better and has become an absolute monster, far worse than previously.

What I think happened was this. When she was unwell she ended up feeling that she was more vulnerable which in effect forced her into the role of Victim and me into the role of Rescuer. Now that she looks back I think she deeply resents the fact that she lost a bit of power in the relationship, (as she sees it), consequently she has now turned the tables on me and has become a Persecutor, which forces me into the role of Victim, (as she is quite literally making me sick!)

I think that the ideal is to avoid these roles as much as possible. This can be very hard if the other person takes an extreme stance, which people with BPD are liable to do.

[RottenTomatoGirl]

Ahh...I have a feeling that there are many here -- myself included -- who could have less stressful lives if we could manage to keep this in mind!

Thanks for the great reminder!  (I really need to start writing some of these down)

[Skip]

I have always found this so intersting. These roles are unconscious defenses in which create unhealthy family interactions and keep people disconnected and distant. These roles are ways people, in a dysfunctional way, try to stay safe, or feel important and fuel their egos. Participating in the "triangle" ultimately buries people in manipulation, blame, shame,  and addictions to crisis and chaos.

Karpman described these roles using an inverted triangle with the Persecutor and the Rescuer at the top. The two positions at the top are considered the “one-up” positions where the participants feel superior while the Victim is in the “one-down” position feeing looked down upon and helpless.

As sunstar*  says, these positions often shift as the interactions unfold and when people feel threatened.

• The Victim may become angry at the injustice of being persecuted, thereby shifting into the Perpetrator role.

• The Persecutor may become tired with his angry barrage then feel guilty and shift into the rescuing role.

• The rescuer may become tired and frustarted and shift into the Persecutor role.

Skippy

[discohornet]

I think the Karpman Drama Triangle is very useful in understanding the roles we play and how they shift in a relationship with a borderline.

I think what's most important is looking at how the borderline can shift from victim to persecutor, and how we usually complete the triangle by being the rescuer. All three are victim roles though...

[Isitme]

Great discussion.  I'm still processing, soaking it all in.  But definately relevant to our struggles with BPD's.  Thanks for posting it.

[Bish]

I have been reading about this, it's really good reading...and it makes a lot of sense...

I most definitely identify with the starting gate RESCUER role on the triangle, and I think my uBPDso sways between starting at Victim or Persecutor... what's amazing is looking at our interactions over the last week I can see how both of us can occupy all three at some point in the arguement!

A Starting Gate Rescuer is the classic, co-dependent. The SGR tends be enabling, overly protective - the one who wants to "fix it". Rescuing is an addiction that comes from an unconscious need to feel valued. There’s no better way to feel important than to be a savior! Taking care of others may be the Rescuers best game plan for getting to feel worthwhile.
SGR’s usually grow up in families where their dependency needs are not acknowledged. It’s a psychological fact that we treat ourselves the way we were treated as children. The budding Rescuer grows up in an environment where their needs are negated and so tend to treat themselves with the same degree of negligence that they experienced as children. Without permission to take care of themselves, their needs go underground and they turn instead to taking care of others.

SO me! ^^

The role of Starting Gate Victim is also a shadow aspect. It is the wounded shadow of our inner child; that part of us that is innocent, vulnerable AND needy. This child-self does need support on occasion - that’s natural. It’s only when we become convinced that we can’t take care of ourselves, that we move into Victim. Believing that we are frail, powerless or defective keeps us needing rescue. This relegates us to a lifetime of crippling dependency on our primary relationships.

A SGV has accepted a definition of themselves that says they are intrinsically damaged and incapable. SGV’s project an attitude of being weak, fragile or not smart enough; basically, “I can’t do it by myself." Their greatest fear is that they won’t make it. That anxiety forces them to be always on the lookout for someone stronger or more capable to take care of them. SGV’s deny both their problem solving abilities and their potential for self-generated power. Instead they tend to see themselves as inept at handling life. Feeling done in by, at the mercy of, mistreated, intrinsically defective or “wrong”, they see themselves as broken and unfixable. This doesn't prevent them from feeling highly resentful towards those on who they depend. As much as they insist on being taken care of by their primary rescuers ... they nonetheless do not appreciate being reminded of their inadequacy.

SO my partner! ^^

Reference: http://www.lynneforrest.com/html/the_faces_of_victim.html

[Mollyd]

It's important to remember that people who are truly victimized have little/no power or choices right now (whereas someone acting in the victim role, DOES have power and choices)

And - no one can truly rescue someone who is not in a true victim situation (e.g. kidnapped, war prisoner, abducted, being actively abused, etc.) - otherwise, "rescuing" is really trying to change someone, inder the guise of "I know what is best for them".  One cannot "rescue" someone from their past victimization - the person has to heal that - not get "rescued" from it.

Both the rescuer and victim roles of the triangle can switch to persecutor, when their role doesn't work.


BPD drama triangle:


The classic role of someone with bpd is to start in the "victim" role (with the non entering the drama triangle as the rescuer)

As the interaction is not really about solutions (because it's drama, not healthy interactions), the roles of the people in the drama change.

So, in the bpd interaction - the bpd changes during drama from the victim role to the persecutor (getting angry and lashing out at the non) (or the non can get angry that their "rescuing" isn't working and begin persecuting the bpd)

The non in the drama triangle can also switch from the rescuer to the victim role, if the bpd switches to persecutor.

Ideally - we don't engage in drama.

No Drama - That looks like

normal person + helper person = solution

However in drama people just engage in one of these three roles, and the roles can switch - with no solutions in site.

NPD drama -

npd usually enters the drama (perceivng themself) as the rescuer then gets angry his/her ideas about rescuing aren't honored for the brilliance they assume - then they switch to percecutor.

The non may (if in drama) be the victim to the npd's rescue - then become persecuted for not doing their part to be rescued as the npd wishes.

Molly

[united for now]

Recognizing the dynamics and admitting your place in the triangle is the first step. Now you need an action plan on how to change things.

The hardest part is always the first step.

[Skip]

Ideally - we don't engage in drama.

No Drama - That looks like

normal person + helper person = solution

However in drama people just engage in one of these three roles, and the roles can switch - with no solutions in site.

Great comments.  Know that we see it - what can we do about it?  The drama triangle is a form of passive aggression.

There is a very simply stated strategy published by the Self Help Alliance (Camrbidge, Ontario) for dealing with these situations called "Move to the Center".

       

• Move into the center. Resist the temptation to play an exaggerated and complementary role to a Victim, Rescuer or Persecutor. You do not want to stabilize an unpleasant situation. Instead, find and hold the center position, thereby marginalizing your adversary and eliminating their power base. The center of the drama triangle contains elements of each corner. It is a combination of sensitivity, compassion, and responsibility.

• Refuse to accept your opponent’s force. Do not struggle with them, or yield to them; instead, allow your opponent to move into an indefensible position.

   
If you have successfully taken the center, your adversary will halt their attacks, rather than risk unmasking themselves and exposing the game.

In the style of Eastern Philosophy, you don't want to cast a loved one as your opponent; rather, take their bad habits and unskillful means as your enemy, and destroy them with your awareness and enlightened skills.

Skippy

[noerml]

thanks for this post.  Learning about the drama triangle several months ago gave me my first real awakening that there was something seriously wrong in my relationship.  Wasn't exactly sure about who played which rolls though. I read that the rolls could rotate between the members of the triangle but didn't consider that one person could play multiple rolls.  What I noticed in my experience was that my gf seemed to have  perpetual drama.  I managed to stay out of most of the triangular affairs but one particularly damaging one was with her parents(effectively one party.) With little to know actual communication with them, I'm left thinking that my gf may have played multiple rolls all the while crying victim. 

[OneTrickPony]

Been a little while since I have posted, but, I found this on the
web while doing some reading on Childhood Parentification.

http://www.angriesout.com/grown20.htm

OTP

[rescue1]

Perfect.  Thank you!

R...1

[Gravityworks]

The drama triangle was something my T (when I was with the exbpd) really emphasized. Thanks for the reminder! I recognized that I can definitely fall into the negative dynamics of the triangle.

[Up From Here]

Perfect.

Thank you. 

[OneTrickPony]

In the time I spent getting my head screwed back on straight after my BPD encounter, I found myself seeking reasons for what happened to me; of course, trying to rationalize the irrational. In the process, I realized eventually that I would never find the end-all-be-all answers I needed to make sense of her, so, I began making sense of myself, my motives, my needs, and all of the unrealistic ideas and ideals I had been carrying around about my relationships with others, not just romantic, but in my family as well.

The reality is that it's a HUGE relief to me to be told that it's actually okay NOT to rescue people, NOT to always be the "good guy" and NOT to feel as though I fail others simply because I don't feel the same as they do. For the first time in my life, I feel authentic and self-directed. Do I still fight the urge to rush in and rescue? Yes. But, I also recognize situations where that instinct is being played upon to manipulate me and I can shut it down.

The whole intention of this site is to give YOU the power to lead your life in a grounded, predictable, reasoned way.

Once you structure your own thoughts and feelings and stop reacting to every drama that comes along, you gain that power.

Keep working at it...life's about change. It never stays the same.

OTP

[elphaba]

Very relevent for many here...and knowing that any of the 3 main roles keep us stuck is important to know.  I had mentioned something in another thread recently about "The resilient child" and another article on that subject. When we find that we are identifying to closely to any of the main roles, it is definately time to take some personal inventory, and get unstuck.

Remember that you can have some traits of each of the roles and switch back and forth between them!

Perpetrator—“I Get To Feel Safe by Hurting Others and Putting Them Down”

• Stuck in a false sense of superiority and defense mechanisms keep people in denial.
• Addictive role—feeling the adrenalin rush during anger and rage. Getting high from fighting and witnessing fights. (If you get energized watching the Jerry Springer show, you might check out adrenalin addiction.)
• Unconsciously uses anger as an energizer to keep depression at bay.
• Needs to be in control and uses verbal or physical force to stay in power.
• Deals with threat, new ideas and conflict with anger to stay safe in the role of being the dominant person.
• Uses blame, criticisms, attacks and then venting to release stress.
• Is highly judgmental of others and angry when others do not do what they say.
• Self righteous judgments about others weaknesses subtly allows the weakness to continue.
• Strong sense of entitlement—“you owe me” and willing to use verbal or physical force to get it.
• Feelings of frustration trigger the right to get angry rather than deal with own uncomfortable feelings.
• Unable to feel vulnerable and denies own weaknesses.
• Shame based and uses negative behaviors to cover up/deny own problems.
• Strong need to be right and not have their authority challenged.
• Finds reasons to make others wrong and scapegoats them.
• Believes others deserve the abuse and punishment the Perpetrators dishes out.
• May have had a parent who modeled aggressive behavior and winning through force.
• May have had a parent who spoiled the child setting up feelings of entitlement and getting his way.

Rescuer—“I Get to Feel Safe by Enabling Others”

• Stuck in a false superiority with defense of acting unselfishly to help others.
• Addictive role—feeling good at the expense of others rights to take care of themselves.
• Good guy beliefs, such as takes the “high moral ground” of rescuing and enabling others.
• Needs to be in control of others to avoid own feelings and problems.
• Garnering self-esteem by being seen as unselfish for someone else’s own good.
• Uses rescuing and enabling to connect or to feel important.
• Highly judgmental of others and angry when others do not do what he/she says.
• Blames Perpetrator for problems in the family while refusing to address one’s own problems.
• Is anxiety driven and uses rescuing to reduce feelings of anxiety.
• Guilts self when not involved with other’s problems.
• Has shame about loss of self to meet others needs.
• Super caretaker role can create sense of giving own self away and create depression.
• Strong sense of entitlement with the Victim of “You owe me because of all I’ve done for you.”
• Can become a martyr/Victim when he/she feels that he/she has been taken advantage of by others.
• Parents the child though meeting his/her own needs of shame and guilt rather than meeting the needs of the child to be a responsible person who is allowed negative consequences and learns from them.
• May feel guilty and try to make it up to a child because of a divorce or due to choosing a lousy spouse who abuses, scapegoats or neglects the child.
• May feel guilty and try to make it up to a child because of drinking or using drugs when the child was small, neglecting the child or being a single mom.
• May feel guilty and try to make it up to a child because of a handicapping condition or a perceived weakness in the child.

Victim—“I Get to Feel Safe by being Submissive”

• Stuck in a false sense of being unworthy with defenses of feeling sorry for self and passive aggressive behavior.
• Deals with threats by giving in, in order to feel safe and is submissive when others act inappropriately.
• Unable to stand up for self and avoids confrontation.
• Believes his/her needs do not count.
• Can be overly sensitive, wish-washy and unable to make and stick to decisions.
• Doesn’t take responsibility for own feelings.
• Feeds off of the beliefs of Perpetrator and rescuer that he/she cannot take care of self.
• Has shame base for being irresponsible and inept.
• Is anxiety driven and makes excuses for staying stuck in Victim-hood.
• Blames Perpetrator for problems in the family.
• Anger, resentment and retaliation through manipulation and refusal to act as a responsible adult.
• Moves between “Poor me” and anger with blaming others “He/she is bad.”
• Angry when goes along with what the Perpetrator or Rescuer says to do.
• Feels stuck and unfulfilled in life but does not risk moving forward.
• May have had a lenient or overly-protective parent who set up expectations of helplessness.
• May have had a parent who feels anxiety when the child has to suffer natural consequences from mistakes.

Fourth Role—The Neglector
“I Get to Do What I Want and Ignore the Needs of Others”
While Karpman did not describe this dynamic, the Neglectful Parent can cause anger, trauma and fears of abandonment in children.

• Involved in own interests and needs and does not recognize the needs of the children.
• Is self involved and withdraws from family connections to meet needs outside the home.
• Highly involved in career, hobbies, volunteer work, affair, drinking or drugging.
• Leaves children to fend for themselves.
• Can be absent-minded not there or cold and rejecting.
• Expects oldest child (usually a girl) to raise the younger children.
• Sometimes expects a child to take care of their needs. This creates a parentified child who has to give up their childhood to take care of others. The parentified child grows up learning codependency at an early age and is often angry at missing out on getting to be a child.

A Fifth Role--The Wise, Resilient Child—“I’m Not Like Them!”
Another dynamic not described by Karpman is the child in the family who is often wiser than the parents who knows from an early age that things are not right in the family. This child understands that there must be a better way to live than to keep wounding each other with offensive behavior. He or she starts to look outside the home for positive role models—a teacher, neighbor, healthy relative, friend’s parent or coach. If the child has talent, he/she is reinforced with attention and encouragement for his hard work. He/she becomes resilient in dealing with the dysfunction of the family and seeks healthier people to hang out with. He/she works hard and his/her identity becomes associated with hard work and talent. High achievement becomes the new defense to bolster up self esteem, but it makes the person one sided. Achievement becomes the self esteem rather than balancing all the skills necessary to form connection and create a happy family life.

The resilient child becomes successful in life due his/her incorporation of positive work skills. Working hard and even workholism becomes a defense strategy to feel good and getting the praise that comes with being seen as an excellent worker. All may go well for many years until working hard to keep self esteem high is not enough. The person starts to feel empty and have the sense that something is missing in their life as he/she has literally withdrawn from contact in the family he has created. He/she starts to feel the imbalance that spending long hours on the job or on hobbies has created. Having only limited defenses—working hard and perhaps drinking or drugging, the person turns more to what has worked in the past—working harder. But achievement no longer is enough to fill the void inside.

At this time, there may be a crisis--perhaps a mid life crisis. The defense of achievement does not work any more. At this juncture in life, there is a choice. The resilient child grown up can either crash into depression or acting out in addictions OR start to examine the early pain of being brought up in a Drama Triangle family where unhealthy behaviors were the daily norm. This can be a shake up time where the person decides to go into recovery and address the pain of the past. It may take the form of searching for a spiritual identity and true meaning in life. Some people believe this shake-up time is the Soul’s calling.

I was/am this child and have over the years come to terms with the family drama, my pattern of choices in relationships and seem to be at this end stage of discovery, finding true meaning and generally accepting of who I have become.  There is still work to be done, some healing that still needs to happen, but, I am satisfied with the path, however challanging, knowing it will finally lead me to where I should be.

Source: www.empowercolorado.com/anger/TheDramaTriangle.doc
The Drama Triangle:
The Three Roles of Victimhood
www.AngriesOut.com
Lynne Namka, Ed. D © 2004

[random]

This concept has been really helpful in moving forward, although a little... well, it required some honesty from me. I think I have been stuck in a Victim role a great deal, and I certainly play it with my uBPD mother, who switches between Persecutor and Rescuer.

The Victim is of course persecuted. The Victim's stance is "Poor me!" The Victim feels victimized, oppressed, helpless, hopeless, powerless, ashamed, and seems unable to make decisions, solve problems, take pleasure in life, or achieve insight. The Victim, if not being persecuted, will seek out a Persecutor and also a Rescuer who will "save" the day but also perpetuate the Victim's negative feelings.

Well, the thing is that I did get victimized. But the thing is, as an adult, I contributed to my own victimization and willingly entered into situations where I was seeking out a Rescuer, and wound up with a Persecutor. In the last three years, I let my mother tell me what to wear, where to live, and generally looked to her to fix my life. And then was unhappy with the results, because my mother was arranging my life to suit her needs, regardless of mine! Well, duh. That's what happens when you relinguish responsibility and power and decision-making to another person!

It's hard to admit just how much of the dysfunction in my life is something I now bring into it myself. But I am glad to have found this information and come to these conclusions - I am grateful to have had the chance to grow and hopefully move into greater strength and a fuller capacity to live life, both as "cope with" and "enjoy and flourish".

Victim—“I Get to Feel Safe by being Submissive”

This rings very true. I think I do this a lot.

    * Stuck in a false sense of being unworthy with defenses of feeling sorry for self and passive aggressive behavior.
    * Unable to stand up for self and avoids confrontation.
    * Believes his/her needs do not count.
    * Can be overly sensitive, wish-washy and unable to make and stick to decisions.
    * Doesn’t take responsibility for own feelings.
    * Feeds off of the beliefs of Perpetrator and rescuer that he/she cannot take care of self.
    * Has shame base for being irresponsible and inept.
    * Is anxiety driven and makes excuses for staying stuck in Victim-hood.
    * Blames Perpetrator for problems in the family.
    * Anger, resentment and retaliation through manipulation and refusal to act as a responsible adult.
    * Moves between “Poor me” and anger with blaming others “He/she is bad.”
    * Angry when goes along with what the Perpetrator or Rescuer says to do.
    * Feels stuck and unfulfilled in life but does not risk moving forward.

These again feel very true for me, and I would like these things to change. I really don't like feeling as helpless and terrified as I do so much of the time, and I don't like the way I seem to need to attach myself to a rescuer figure, and surrender all my power to them. That just sets me up for further abuse.

 I am not happy with how being a Victim has shaped my life up to this point, and I would like the dysfunction and chaos in my life to end.

[Auspicious]

Like all tools, it has its uses ... and should be used with care, IMHO.

For example, a person with BPD probably sees you as a Persecutor when you call 911 about their behavior. 

Are you being a Persecutor then?  Well, maybe ... but probably not (assuming their behavior actually warranted it). Depends on your motives, what you are trying to accomplish, etc.

[blackandwhite]

For example, a person with BPD probably sees you as a Persecutor when you call 911 about their behavior.  

Are you being a Persecutor then?  Well, maybe ... but probably not (assuming their behavior actually warranted it). Depends on your motives, what you are trying to accomplish, etc.

I absolutely agree that just because you're given/accused of assuming a role it doesn't mean you're actually playing it. With a BPD sufferer in particular, the roles are going to get thrown around as part of that person's own distorted thinking. And calling 911 when someone is in danger isn't acting as a Rescuer. It's actually rescuing. There's certainly a distinction.

The trouble is in our relationships with BPD sufferers, we get pulled into the triangle and perhaps have trouble distinguishing the truth of the situation (actually rescuing or enabling? setting boundaries or persecuting? being mistreated or acting the victim?). Also, for me it was a great big   when I realized that when my mother, as a BPD sufferer who equates facts with feelings, FEELS victimized, she will find or create a Persecutor and a Rescuer, to complete the triangle. So from her own, internal, not-based-on-anything-in-the-external-world feeling, an entire triangle trap is created. She would seek me and others out to complete the play. It took a lot of awareness not to enter the triangle.

Taking advantage of this early warning system (uh oh, a Victim has show up, better think about how to avoid becoming the Persecutor or Rescuer) can help us defuse difficult situations earlier.

Another important benefit of recognizing these patterns, as random pointed out in a very thoughtful way, is that when exposed to these roles long enough, we come to view them as inevitable models for how to live. Random said:

Well, the thing is that I did get victimized. But the thing is, as an adult, I contributed to my own victimization and willingly entered into situations where I was seeking out a Rescuer, and wound up with a Persecutor.

Understanding these dynamics helps to free us.

B&W