S11 is complaining a lot lately.

[Think About It....]

I was with my ex for about 13 years altogether.  After we got married her behavior changed a lot, and one of the most consistent behaviors was complaining...

At times it seemed like she couldn't go ten minutes without complaining, and she was masterful and figuring out ways to blame things on me.  Near the end of our marriage my ability to ignore it got weaker and weaker.  When we finally separated, one of the best things about being away from her was not having to put up with her gosh-darn complaining!

Well all my kids inherited some of that, but for the most part it's dwarfed by sunny personalities and wonderful minds.

But S11 is complaining a lot lately.  This week I took S11, D13, and SD20 skiing - well we didn't really get around to skiing, but had a nice trip to ski country, saw some sights etc.  We'll probably be moving there next summer so I wanted the kids to see it.  Most of the time they were all good, but at times S11 complained about ten times as much as I think would be normal.  I immediately call it what it is - complaining - and tell him it's not good.  A couple of times I told him if he continued I would have to separate him from the rest of us - not easy when you're traveling.

Generally after awhile he gets back into a more cheerful mood, and often laughs just a few minutes later.  So I don't think he's really unhappy, or upset about anything.  He's just complaining, in a pretty nasty tone, out of habit.

I don't know how much this is due to being around his mom.  (We have 50/50 though they're with me more than that.)  I don't want to tell him, "You're acting like your mom but she is mentally ill and you're not, so stop it."  (Actually I do want to tell him that but I don't think he's ready to hear it.)  So I continue treating the "symptom" and not the "disease".

I think I will have a serious talk with him soon and see if that will help.

Any ideas?

Thanks.

Matt

[Matt]

I was with my ex for about 13 years altogether.  After we got married her behavior changed a lot, and one of the most consistent behaviors was complaining...

At times it seemed like she couldn't go ten minutes without complaining, and she was masterful and figuring out ways to blame things on me.  Near the end of our marriage my ability to ignore it got weaker and weaker.  When we finally separated, one of the best things about being away from her was not having to put up with her gosh-darn complaining!

Well all my kids inherited some of that, but for the most part it's dwarfed by sunny personalities and wonderful minds.

But S11 is complaining a lot lately.  This week I took S11, D13, and SD20 skiing - well we didn't really get around to skiing, but had a nice trip to ski country, saw some sights etc.  We'll probably be moving there next summer so I wanted the kids to see it.  Most of the time they were all good, but at times S11 complained about ten times as much as I think would be normal.  I immediately call it what it is - complaining - and tell him it's not good.  A couple of times I told him if he continued I would have to separate him from the rest of us - not easy when you're traveling.

Generally after awhile he gets back into a more cheerful mood, and often laughs just a few minutes later.  So I don't think he's really unhappy, or upset about anything.  He's just complaining, in a pretty nasty tone, out of habit.

I don't know how much this is due to being around his mom.  (We have 50/50 though they're with me more than that.)  I don't want to tell him, "You're acting like your mom but she is mentally ill and you're not, so stop it."  (Actually I do want to tell him that but I don't think he's ready to hear it.)  So I continue treating the "symptom" and not the "disease".

I think I will have a serious talk with him soon and see if that will help.

Any ideas?

Thanks.

Matt

[ifsogirl26]

I used to complain alot without any mentally ill parents OR influence of complaining but I grew out of it so maybe thats all it is?

Also I used to complain I think because my wants/needs were ignored alot. My parents made me go hiking all the time when I didn't want to. Once I had a really high fever and they still made me go. I didn't make it very far 

Since they made me do things that I really didn't want to do over and over I guess I developed complaining as a way to make their time just as miserable as mine.

It may not seem like a big deal and I would understand if it was they can't go if I don't but it wasn't that. I would gladly go on bike rides or do other activities but hiking is forever ruined for me. Unless its all my idea and I know exactly how long it will take. No four hour walks please! I was old enough to go to friends or stay home by myself. Oh well guess I am still not over it.

Get me around my parents without a car of my own to make my escape and the old complaining whinning habits just leak out.

Maybe there is some of this going on with your son? Is there specific things he complains about?

[Matt]

It may be just a phase, but it's been a few years now and seems to be getting worse at times.  Other stuff he's done that mirrors his mom's behavior - like throwing fits - he has left behind - maybe grew out of them, but I shined a bright light on those behaviors and made sure he knew they weren't OK.  So I think I should do the same with this - make it clear that it's not OK and be persistent in correcting the behavior.

I do my best to pay attention to his needs and not force him to do stuff he doesn't want to, except chores.  I wish he would sign up for sports but, except flag football recently, he doesn't want to do that so I say OK.  I take the lead and drag him along on hikes and other stuff but not often and not if he strongly resists, and he generally seems OK with that - has a good time.

His complaints aren't general - he doesn't have big complaints about life - just whatever is going on at the moment.  Often food, which is one of his mom's favorites - whatever there is to eat isn't good and it's my fault.  Or he's "bored", though I make sure he has access to books and he has an iPod, so he has ways to entertain himself in the car.

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[problemfamily]

Matt - I definitely had more of an anger problem while living with my dad, who had horrible rages. Once I was able to recognize that I was out of control, my own raging stopped almost immediately. This didn't happen until I was about 18. My parents didn't see it as much as my siblings did, because I was left alone long enough to take it out of them without getting caught. I suppose it was my way of mirroring what I saw that was effective in my dad's behavior. At the same time, it scared me to be acting so much like him but I felt like I couldn't stop. Maybe this is what your son is feeling? I'm not sure that having anyone bring it to my attention would have helped. I think that if my mom had seen some of my behaviors she would have scolded me, but it seemed to resolve itself over time.

[loki8447]

It could be mirroring BPD behavior but I'm reading what you wrote and thinking about my 11 yr old daughter. She's never been a griper...until this year.  Aarrgghh! I swear, even if it was good she wouldn't like it.  It seems to be some strange phase.  It's improving slightly as she nears 12 and she's beginning to realize that she's being a pain more quickly.  She'll apologize for it when it dawns on her. Could this be some bizarre "tween" behavior/hormonal derangement? 

[Matt]

Thanks guys - these are exactly the issues I'm struggling with...

So this morning I told both kids "No TV or other fun stuff til you finish your thank-you letters."  D13 did hers quickly on the computer.  S11 tried negotiating with me but I held firm.  What he wanted to do was make a recipe from a goofy cookbook he got for Christmas - "Revolting Recipes", based on Roald Dahl's stories.  He's been making them every day, plus other stuff he likes, like lasagna.

So finally I put my foot down and said, "No cooking til you finish your thank-you letters!".  I wonder if other fathers have to say that?

Anyway, I'll wait til a quiet time when we're alone, and have a talk with him, and see how that goes.

Thanks.

Matt

[the other side]

Matt,

I worry about this too with one of my SDs (10).  I question whether it is just normal kid behavior or exposure to BPDmom's behaviors.  While she is a gregarious and seemingly happy child, she complains about everything, all of the time.  Habitually, I'd say . . . like a subconscious tick.  It drives me insane. I'd say it is just the age, but I have 4 other girls around and, while they all whine and complain about various things, none do to the same extent.  She also has other habits in addition to the complaining -- she likes to be the center of attention (who doesn't ? . . but more so than the other children), she is bossy and demands to be in charge when she enters a game with the other children (which leads to all sorts of problems), she is not aware of these behaviors in herself and engages in victim mode when the inevitable results (kids don't want her to play with them, she gets in trouble with her dad or me, etc.), she has a quick temper, she is very argumentative, she is very emotional/dramatic (good and bad extremes), she has a very close friend for awhile but then moves on to another, etc.  She also can be very manipulative, to the point that I really believe that her mom has coached her on the trick of saying something seeemingly complimentary to someone when you think the opposite so that you might get your way with them.  Her mom is very skilled at this, I only found out about it when she told me that she did it (we used to be friends, long story).  SD10 is not as skilled at it, so it's very transparent . . . but where does a 10-year old learn to do that so blatantly?  Then again, I could be just paranoid, and it is typical 10-year old behavior. 

This child is the most like her mom, in many ways, so I do worry about nature vs. nuture in her case more than I do about my other SDs (SD12 is starting to develop her own understanding of her mom's way of behaving/reacting and is developing her own tools to deal with her mom, and SD5 is more oblivious and less exposed because she is the most favored nation right now at her mom's). At the end of the day, however, I ask myself why that matters.  It causes me concern, yes.  It affects my daily life, yes, much as BPD BM affects my daily life.  I cannot completely control it because SD10 is not being raised by my husband and me -- he has 50% custody.  But, as with parenting and a healthy married relationship, we can illustrate by example and treat such behaviors as we would with any other child, with consistent rules and discipline.  For instance, I had spoken to my H about the complaining, but he had not really seen it fully until he was off work for a number of days.  Now he is more aware of the issue and does raise it with SD10.  I have also tried not be as persoanlly affected by the "victim" behavior when I do have to discipline SD10 (I save big discipline for dad with my SDs, but I am with them all day long and have to handle the day-to-day stuff . . . stepmothering in this context can be a minefield and the negative reactions can be hard not to take personally) -- I just to do my absolute best to keep a level head, to be consistent, and to tell her why I do not think a particular behavior is appropriate.  All of my SDs are aware that different behaviors are OK at mom and dad's houses -- arguing does not get them far at our house, for example, and they know that.  Yet it is a habit at mom's house -- they throw it out there and see where it will land.  If she is not wanting to deal with the harder part of parenting, as is often the case, they get their way; other times she engages in the argument like just another kid; other times she reacts like my husband anf I would; and still other times, she totally loses it.  They never know so are always willing to give it a try -- causes a little adjustment period when they come to our house.  I have also started to call SD10 on the false complimenting, telling her that it is not nice to give a compliment when it is clear that you don't mean it and really think the opposite.  I told her this, for instance, in response to her telling me how much she liked me in glasses when I was looking particularly worn out and frumpy after a night of little sleep getting ready for the holidays. There was no questioning that it was a real compliment, trust me here . . . as I said she is not a great actress. In fact, on that occassion, she did not deny it, and I think felt a little ashamed that I saw it for what it was.

Long way of saying that, as with alot of other things involving a BPD ex, we just have to do what we have to do and cannot dwell too much on the fact that things might be different if there were no exposure to a BPD parent/spouse/etc.  Just keep on course, be a good parent to your child, whatever issues might arise.  At least knowing that a behavior may stem from exposure to a BPD parent provides us with a context, and some compassion and understanding, and we can only hope that our 50% or 40% parenting time or whatever it is will have some balancing effect.

[Matt]

I dropped the kids off yesterday to go on a trip for a few days.  The last thing I said to S11 was, when I pick you guys up, the whole time you're with me let's not have any complaining at all, OK?

S11 made a joke out of complaining because I told him he couldn't complain.  Which told me that he understands and is OK with it.  I have the feeling he'll do better.  But I'll be careful to give him quick and clear feedback if he backslides.

[briefcase]

Hi Matt,

My D11 is doing the same thing.  It is a worrying trait when you have been through what we have. 

I haven't been calling the complaining out as directly as you have.  Usually, her complaining is about someone--her mom, her sisters, friends at school, a coach, a teacher, me.  She does complain about things and chores too, but not quite as much.  When she complains about someone, I usually try to identify and validate her emotions.  I also ask questions that lead the conversation onto more positive ground and explain about the importance of a positive outlook. When she complains about things or chores, she gets validated and still has to do whatever she needs to do. 

I think some people are just complainers in life, but at age 11, our kids are still learning and forming their personality.  This is a great thread and I am interested in seeing other responses.

[problemfamily]

I'll add that SD10 tends to complain about things that put her in a less than perfect light - ex. She doesn't like the stupid song on rock band if she doesn't score well; there is something wrong with the dishes/carpet/laundry if she doesn't complete her chores. I've been reminding her that these objects aren't a problem in and of themselves, and I will help her do better but that it isn't fair to blame "stuff"

similarly - both DH and I remind both kids that other people don't MAKE you do things, or MAKE you mad, happy, etc. We do have some control over ourselves and our responses and that really we need to worry/think/act primarily about ourselves so that we can be happy inside, and THEN worry about the other people/problems etc.

Not sure if this is the type of complaining that your son is doing Matt, but at our house the complaints are usually blaming or shifting responsibility/accountability type complaints.

[Matt]

Not sure if this is the type of complaining that your son is doing Matt, but at our house the complaints are usually blaming or shifting responsibility/accountability type complaints.

Yes, a lot of them are like that.  Very lame excuses not to do what he's supposed to do.  Sometimes the excuses and complaints are very legalistic or niggling.

These are some interesting thoughts - thanks guys.

It seems like I'm taking one approach - confronting the behavior and telling him it's not acceptable.  And Briefcase is taking a very different one - validating emotions.

Maybe they're not at odds, but different degrees of focus...

[problemfamily]

I think there is a third approach too, which is extremely clearly setting expectations to the level of

washing dishes means:
clear table of dinner dishes/put food in sink
putting clean dishes away
washing the dirty dishes (we don't have a dishwasher)
wiping out the sink
wiping off the counters

so that when we discuss "do the dishes" everyone knows what everyone else is talking about. I learned from taking care of MRDD adults that sometimes there is a breach in communication between the instruction given and what the listener understands. It seems like some of the complaints could stem from a disconnect in expectations vs what the kid is understanding

[Matt]

I think there is a third approach too, which is extremely clearly setting expectations to the level of

washing dishes means:
clear table of dinner dishes/put food in sink
putting clean dishes away
washing the dirty dishes (we don't have a dishwasher)
wiping out the sink
wiping off the counters

so that when we discuss "do the dishes" everyone knows what everyone else is talking about. I learned from taking care of MRDD adults that sometimes there is a breach in communication between the instruction given and what the listener understands. It seems like some of the complaints could stem from a disconnect in expectations vs what the kid is understanding

With my S11 that may be the case occasionally, but for the most part it's deliberate and pretty blatant.  When he does the dishes willingly he does them well, for example.  He is always responsible for keeping the litter box clean and much of the time he does that well too.  He packs his own lunch the night before school, and gets out the door on time every day.

But when he gets an attitude - often when he's tired - any excuse will do, or he'll just refuse to do what he's supposed to.  And complain about whatever he can - food, people, whatever.

I think maybe I need to practice more of the validation - it's not something I think much about but I think a little might go a long way - while also continuing to hold him accountable for his behavior, including chores and complaining.  Maybe be a little more flexible when he's tired - let him put something off til the morning if he has done most of what he should.  And I suppose more positive reinforcement when he doesn't complain...

Thanks.

Matt

[briefcase]

I think maybe I need to practice more of the validation - it's not something I think much about but I think a little might go a long way - while also continuing to hold him accountable for his behavior, including chores and complaining.  Maybe be a little more flexible when he's tired - let him put something off til the morning if he has done most of what he should.  And I suppose more positive reinforcement when he doesn't complain...

Sounds like a great plan to me.  Let me know how it works out.  I do think it's important to not give in to the complaining. With me, I'll listen, I'll sympathize . . . . but you're still gonna do the dishes.  Good luck!