PERSPECTIVES: Family systems--understanding the narcissistic family

[blackandwhite]

Many of us feel something was wrong with a particular family, in some cases our own, but we have trouble putting our finger on exactly what. Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert M. Pressman, the authors of The Narcissistic Family, provide a framework for understanding these "off" family systems even when there may be no obvious issue, such as an alcoholic parent or physical abuse.

In this workshop, we will explore:
*the elements of a narcissistic family system
*two types of narcissistic families, overt and covert
*the impact on family members
*ideas for recovery

The authors explain that though there is a well-developed literature for adult children of alcoholics, there is not one that fits for adult children of families where "children become the reflection of their parents' emotional needs"--for reasons other than alcoholism or substance abuse. These families, which include those with a parent or parents who are personality disordered, are called "narcissistic" not after NPD (though NPD might be the problem in the family) but after the classical myth of Narcissus, who fell in love with his own reflection and was unable "to see, hear, or react to the needs of another," and Echo, who loved him.

The three elements of a narcissistic system are:

*skewed responsibility--children meet parents' needs instead of the other way around. Children are parentified.
*reactive and reflective--"rather than act on their own feelings in a proactive way" (better not to have feelings that cannot be expressed or validated), "children wait to see what others expect or need and then react to those expectations." Children learn not to have needs or to expect needs to be met.
*problems with intimacy--children unlearn trust. Although their needs may have been met as infants and toddlers, as they develop and their needs are more complex, the family system buckles. Children learn not to trust their caregivers and, by extension, others.

Overtly narcissistic families are the classic dysfunctional families--easy to recognize, for a therapist at least, if not the individual. The authors point out that even obvious dysfunction is often repressed or denied by those within the family system, noting "the patient who can readily identify the reality of his or her upbringing is the exception, not the rule." In these families, there is often physical abuse, sexual abuse, severe emotional abuse, and/or neglect.

Covertly narcissistic families are more subtle, harder for the therapist--and of course the family member--to recognize. The family may appear "normal," but the "needs of the parents were the focus of the family, and that the children were in some way expected to meet those needs." In these families, there is often emotional abuse and neglect; one sibling may be strongly favored, or a parent may draw all attention to him or herself or expect caretaking from a child or children from a young age. Emotional incest may be an issue.

[blackandwhite]

Questions:
1. When we look at a family as a system, what insights do we gain?
2. Do the three elements of a narcissistic family (children are parentified, learn to have no needs, lose trust) sound familiar? How?
3. What are examples of overt and covert narcissistic family situations?

[justhere]

Hi blackandwhite
I would say my FOO was a fairly good example of a covert narcissistic family as outwardly we appeared like the respectable model family. We went to church on Sunday, my sisters and I were well behaved, everyone worked hard, everyone smiled a lot.
 
Mom was the perfect mom and was thought by all her friends to be 'the nicest person they ever met' and dad was the 'ever-by-side' dH. No one stepped out of line and even as very small children we knew what was expected.  It only took a 'look' or a 'tilt of the head ' to stop any untoward behavior as our outward image must be perfect. All the anger, pain and neglect were saved for later in the home and wasn't even talked about amongst ourselves.

My sisters and I had our roles, the youngest was 'golden', the next 'bad', and I was the 'scapegoat' and we all looked after mom.  From as long as I can remember, it was our duty to make mom's life easier by doing the housework, baking, looking after the baby and rocking her to sleep and most importantly, we looked after ourselves.  I think the biggest and most important rule was to... 'obey without question' and second...'we could not ask for anything'.  
 
I was so brainwashed it took me to last March to even know that my family had a problem as they had me believing that I was the problem and when I mentioned something to my sister about our mothers questionable behavior she told me I was 'bad-mouthing' our mother.

justhere

[AXA]

Once I am ready to back track my childhood, will post...


Thank you for starting this thread.

 Adult children of PDs need the tools to move on with our lives and live a life of radical acceptance and transformation.

[MyBigMouth]

 Adult children of PDs need the tools to move on with our lives and live a life of radical acceptance and transformation.

So far this forum is the only form I've found that gives actual tools, I've had to search high and low for what I've learned.  Eveything here is readily available and just takes time to sift through. I totally agree with you.

I would have to identify with the Covertly narcissistic families, but there were times it was easy to see the dysfunction like the way my mom used to wistle for me or my dad when we were out in public, or how she would yell like Kate Goslien at my dad in the grocery store, or scream at the top of her lungs because my 8 year old stepped on her foot.  I don't think any "normal" person would do these things.  I think she couldn't hide it from her friends for very long either, like when she told our neighbor friend how I got my period and cried because I thought I went number 2 in my pants and didn't know what it was, supposedly this was hilarious to them.  No one had a clue that there was anything wrong that a 13 year old girl didn't know what getting her period was?  Would this be considered Covert or Overt?

2. Do the three elements of a narcissistic family (children are parentified, learn to have no needs, lose trust) sound familiar? How?

Well yeah, she was the emotional baby and I got to take care of her emotional needs while learning how to parent myself too. Did I loose trust, only in the end, I was dumb, niave or even ignorant, it took two bad marriages and my children being molested for me to take a really hard look at my upbringing and how it affected me.  Once I realized how incredibly messed up my whole childhood was then I lost trust.  However, from the very begining I lost trust in my own feelings and emotions because I had a parent tell me they were wrong, constantly.  So from the very begining I lost trust in the deep down things, anger, sixth sense/intuition, stranger danger sort of stuff, not being able to see that my ex was manipulating me, etc.

1. When we look at a family as a system, what insights do we gain?

Right now the only insight Im able to gain is that my childhood was pathetic, and Im trying my best not to fall apart on a daily basis because of it.  Sometimes I wish I was just oblivious to it that way I could live in apathy and victimology and take no responsibility for myself, but then that would make me just like her.

Sorry my dad told me I was just like her the other day and it's crushed me ever since.

[joiesophie]

*two types of narcissistic families, overt and covert
*the impact on family members
*ideas for recovery

The three elements of a narcissistic system are:

*skewed responsibility--children meet parents' needs instead of the other way around. Children are parentified.
*reactive and reflective--"rather than act on their own feelings in a proactive way" (better not to have feelings that cannot be expressed or validated), "children wait to see what others expect or need and then react to those expectations." Children learn not to have needs or to expect needs to be met.
*problems with intimacy--children unlearn trust. Although their needs may have been met as infants and toddlers, as they develop and their needs are more complex, the family system buckles. Children learn not to trust their caregivers and, by extension, others.

Hi all,

I'm in!  I'm three for three - parentified, reactive and reflective and the trust thing. (Just ask my T - she did say that, not only were the other t's a challenge for me, it was also other relationships! )  I didn't know that I "fit" somewhere - Thanks for the thread!

js

[nonna12345]

Look forward to adding my opinions and experiences on this thread.

The complexities of how families function within their own 'clan' boundaries have challenged research and health professionals in their quest to define or assess the impact of learned behaviors on how we establish future relationships.   Learned coping mechanisms directly relate to our 'nurture' or family environement and, our 'nature' ... the inherent 'who' that is what we think we are.  Thoreau said it best - "What a man thinks of himself, that is which determines, or rather indicates, his fate”.

So, if the reflection of ourselves is in the eyes of others (the beholders) when we interact with them, are we the ones that put it there ourselves?  I think we are.  Recovery from the effects of a dysfunctional family needs both an understanding of 'where we fit' in the family dynamic - but also ... where we don't.  I like the idea of also paying some attention to the 'where we don't'. 

[blackandwhite]

Lots of interesting stuff here.

From justhere:

I would say my FOO was a fairly good example of a covert narcissistic family as outwardly we appeared like the respectable model family. We went to church on Sunday, my sisters and I were well behaved, everyone worked hard, everyone smiled a lot.

Covert systems present a special challenge, because "there's nothing wrong with us." Family systems theory talks about families having "rules." Dysfunctional families have a "no talk" rule. Secrets are kept.

From MyBigMouth:

Right now the only insight Im able to gain is that my childhood was pathetic, and Im trying my best not to fall apart on a daily basis because of it.  Sometimes I wish I was just oblivious to it that way I could live in apathy and victimology and take no responsibility for myself, but then that would make me just like her.

Sounds like you're feeling pretty low about this right now, but that's actually a lot of insight. Family dysfunction continues across generations unless someone recognizes it and stops it. But it's hard, really hard, to be the one who steps up. You should be commended for your courage. There is a recovery process, which we'll get to later in the workshop.

From joiesophie:

not only were the other t's a challenge for me, it was also other relationships

Trust not learned or unlearned in childhood is very difficult to (re)gain. What strategies help us learn to trust while respecting our own safety? (By holding off on making a larger contribution right now on this thread, AXA is displaying a very healthy strategy, I think--honoring limits and where you are right now.)

From nonna:

Recovery from the effects of a dysfunctional family needs both an understanding of 'where we fit' in the family dynamic - but also ... where we don't.  I like the idea of also paying some attention to the 'where we don't'.

 

Very interesting point. It makes me think of the "roles" within family systems. They are represented in different ways, but key features are:
*Roles are rigid. (If you try to move off your assigned role, you WILL get push back.)
*Roles are assigned by the system to meet the system's needs.

Examples of family roles (adding on to those justhere mentioned) include Hero, Family Scapegoat, Rebel, Overachiever, Little Parent. Do other examples come to mind?

Where DON'T we fit in the family dynamic?

B&W

[MiddleOne]

Questions:
1. When we look at a family as a system, what insights do we gain?
2. Do the three elements of a narcissistic family (children are parentified, learn to have no needs, lose trust) sound familiar? How?
3. What are examples of overt and covert narcissistic family situations?

1.  Looking at the family as a whole reveals a complex web of interactions and effects on individuals. Compare the family to an ecosystem: in a balanced ecosystem all living organisms thrive from interactions and diversity is beneficial.  If, however, the ecosystem is unbalanced then some organisms consume disproportionate resources (time, attention, money), damage others through interactions (actions or omissions, harmful communication) and diversity (feelings, thoughts, activities) is not permitted.  I'd expect a narcissistic family to be an unhealthy ecosystem--mine certainly was one such example.

2.  The three elements of a narcissistic family were found in my own FOO:

Kids took physical & emotional care of parents (bipolar Mom and uBPD/NPD dad, later grandparents too) and performed almost all household duties like cleaning, grocery shopping, cooking, yard work, banking and errands;
 
Kids were not permitted to have needs (in a bizarre appropriation of corporate-speak, dad referred to kid's needs as "P.P.'s" meaning personal problems that we had to solve on our own. There was an implicit criticism for expecting help from him.) ;

Trust was greatly eroded (ex. no one spoke openly at the dinner table for fear of ridicule. Dad was the only one permitted to speak without fear of negative feedback. Everyone else sat stonefaced and conversation consisted of agreeing with whatever Dad said. *Constant awkwardness around each other because there was no trust*)  

Now, to be fair I must add that my family's cultural background expected older children to help with younger children, housework, cooking and care of the elderly.  But all of these chores were take to such an extreme that helping was intensified into being the primary person performing a task.  So, rather than conforming to the cultural norms our family was an anomaly in expecting adult chores to be primarily performed by kids.

[problemfamily]

This is an interesting topic for sure.

I can identify with some of the ideas, but not all are resonating with me. Normally I am on the boards due to BPD behaviors from my DH's FOO, but I have long felt that there was more to my own FOO than I could put a finger on. There is definite dysfunction, I just don't know how to name it.

*skewed responsibility--children meet parents' needs instead of the other way around. Children are parentified. -

This has happened to me, at times. Maybe more than I realize. My father, who is not my biological father, but adopted us after marrying my mom has terrible anger problems. The message was always not to rock the boat and "make" him mad. As he has aged and mellowed some, he has turned to me several times to care for him when he was ill or recovering from heart problems. He will listen to me when I fuss at him about his various health problems, but will not take the same advice from anyone else. This feels wrong to me because to me he should be listening to his wife, not his D. Also, related to my mom: I see her more and more as a waify figure who has for as long as I can remember played dumb or pretended that she can't do things to get other people to do them for her. As often as she plays the waif, she is assertive and can figure out most anything she wants to do, and then does it. She is terribly manipulative and often tells white lies, and until I came in contact with DH's FOO I did not recognize my mother's  manipulations as potentially damaging. I had always worked around them and learned to be manipulative in some ways myself.  I've always reacted very strongly to my mother lying and playing dumb, so much so that I am overly sensitive to people thinking I might be dumb and my sense of honesty is probably overblown. The upshot is that I very easily recognize when I am being manipulated or lied to.

*reactive and reflective--"rather than act on their own feelings in a proactive way" (better not to have feelings that cannot be expressed or validated), "children wait to see what others expect or need and then react to those expectations." Children learn not to have needs or to expect needs to be met.

This one stumps me. I still cannot name very many of my feelings besides love, anger, embarassment, happiness, confusion and frustration. I understand that there are a larger range of emotions that I feel, but have no way to identify or name them. I feel a larger range of emotions than these but have no vocabulary for describing or expressing them. This is something that bothers me very much and that I have actively worked on for the last 17 years.


*problems with intimacy--children unlearn trust. Although their needs may have been met as infants and toddlers, as they develop and their needs are more complex, the family system buckles. Children learn not to trust their caregivers and, by extension, others.

I have problems with trusting people in general and also in individual situations, although I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong unless I feel something "off" about them, in which case I distrust them until they prove otherwise. More often than not my gut feeling is right and the person or situation is not to be trusted.

Overtly narcissistic families are the classic dysfunctional families--easy to recognize, for a therapist at least, if not the individual. The authors point out that even obvious dysfunction is often repressed or denied by those within the family system, noting "the patient who can readily identify the reality of his or her upbringing is the exception, not the rule." In these families, there is often physical abuse, sexual abuse, severe emotional abuse, and/or neglect.

Covertly narcissistic families are more subtle, harder for the therapist--and of course the family member--to recognize. The family may appear "normal," but the "needs of the parents were the focus of the family, and that the children were in some way expected to meet those needs." In these families, there is often emotional abuse and neglect; one sibling may be strongly favored, or a parent may draw all attention to him or herself or expect caretaking from a child or children from a young age. Emotional incest may be an issue.


? I think my family falls into both overt and covert. Some problems, such as my dad's anger are overt. Almost anyone who knows our family knows that he has a BAD temper than often flares for no apparent reason. In fact, his FOO has a nickname for the rampant anger problems among the entire family. They refer to their tempers as "The match" strikes without warning, flares and quickly burns out, often with the recipients left compeltely stunned by what just happened and the angry person wondering why people are crying, mad at them, or reacting angrily towards them. On the other hand, my mother's machinations and lying are more covert. For most people that know her well, they would be surprised and shocked to hear that she lies and plays dumb so often. They view her as a nice, sweet lady (which she is most of the time). Even in the face of lying, she manages to turn the  situation comical or lighthearted so that rather than feeling angry, you feel like you've heard a funny story to pass along at a party. Despite all that, I've never felt physically neglected or that my parents were the focus of everything. There have been many times when us children were the center, more for mom than dad. I have felt that my sister has been favored over my brother and I on many many occasions, leaving me resentful towards her. She would say that I was favored. All of us would agree that my brother was the black sheep from early on, and continues still. Mom would admit that she favored my sister due to guilt and grieving for the loss of our biological father, which happened while she was pregnant with my sister. Mom also often tells me that dad favors me. Brother is often left out of the equation.

[justhere]

I'd say we don't fit into the family dynamic when we do anything not authorized by the family like...try to get our own needs or wants met, question any of the families decisions, make changes or show any emotions such as anger, fear, pain even too much happiness can be a problem.

 There would also never be an excuse to not obey or to not do your job. Keeping order and control of each person and their role and duties in the family is imperative, non-negotiable and life-long.
Mom actually said to me once when I was having a serious health issue that she didn't want me to die as she didn't want to mourn me as I should have the pain of having to mourn her not the other way around and she was quite indignant that I possibly might die out of order.

justhere

[kkriesel]

1. When we look at a family as a system, what insights do we gain?

Mapping out the patterns of a BP (especially in a family) can help the sane person see the BPD/NPD, gauge one's own reactions accordingly, and set boundaries.  It's also a stark reminder that relationships between adults are 50/50 and shows the parentification of children.

2. Do the three elements of a narcissistic family (children are parentified, learn to have no needs, lose trust) sound familiar? How?

Oh dear god yes.  uBPDm had narcissistic qualities and the faculty/staff/clergy at my school were extremely narcissistic, using dogma and catechism to reinforce servitude in female students.  Female children are supposed to be the caretakers of others, practicing and perfecting selfless servitude for their future husbands.  Any selfishness meant that your family, future husband and even God will leave you.  uBPDm didn't allow me to see much of my FOO until I was 15, so these poisonous people were the narcissistic family she pushed onto me.

3. What are examples of overt and covert narcissistic family situations?

Overt example: "We're both sick, but you should make enough soup for the both of us." - I was SEVEN YEARS OLD!  This involved opening a can of soup with a handheld can-opener and using the gas stove.
Covert example: "All you Girl Scouts should emulate The Virgin Mary.  She gave up her entire life to serve God, her husband Joseph, and her son.  Since none of you are old enough to get married and have children yet, make sure you serve your families, teachers, troop leaders, and your male peers.  God will know if you aren't doing this."

[NewPhoenixRising]

My family was mostly covert.  Mom did offer several instances of physical abuse - chasing me with a wooden spoon -flailing it and landing a few, throwing water in my face to wake me up, physical intimidation, and washing my mouth out with soap.  The majority of the damage was done by the covert stuff, however.  

Mom

- Never letting me have an opinion, or never allowing me to be right.  (I thought she was perfect until I was 19 or 20.

- Emotional incest - pulling me aside to quietly blame my father for everything wrong in the family.  I partook.  She took advantage of my love and need for closeness with her.  This has caused a lifetime of intimacy problems in relationships.  I only realized the extent of this damage recently.

- Treating others better than she treated us.  Pouring herself into things such as School Board President, State School Board, County Supervisory Board, Church functions including Sunday School, etc.  and then neglecting our needs at home

- Guilting me to get what she wanted, and then when I did what she wanted, I got no praise or recognition.  She used our accomplishments to bolster her own image.

- Raging unpredictably so that I was chronically hyper-vigilant, until recently.  I'm 38, and I still have bouts of it when I am triggered.  It's just not chronic anymore because of radical acceptance, and understanding that she is that way for a reason.

- The hypocrisy - what she preached to us, was never followed through on by her in her own life.

- Manipulations, lies, and a truth that was constantly evolving to suit her own needs.  This created an atmosphere where we were not allowed to be who we were meant to be, but rather extensions of her, and arrested emotionally in some pretty significant ways.  

- Broken promises - Anything promised was never followed through on.  As a result, the interests I had excitement for were wasted, because I had to jump through unreasonable hoops or she would break promise after promise, and even dashed my own impetus several times.  

Dad

- workaholic/alcoholic - When he wasn't working, he was sitting in front of the tv, drinking beers.

- severely and chronically verbally abused me while working on the farm - on a daily basis.  If something went wrong, or he was in a bad mood, or just felt bad because he had drank too much the night before - it was my fault and he let me know it.  As a result, I felt I was bad.  I started punishing myself around age 11.  My self-esteem disappeared.  I was confused.  

- not much interaction - more low self-esteem, poor habits formed, no interests to model after

- not much encouragement - everything revolved around his work, drinking, or getting us to do more work, for him

- he would attend our events only if he personally enjoyed them.  When something irritated him about one of our coaches, he would swear them of and never be seen again.  

Combined - Mom and Dad together

- Huge, terrible fights all the time, for as far back as I can remember.  Usually on a daily basis.

- Fights just after we went off to bed.  I could hear them clearly even though we were upstairs.  Mom threatened to leave many times.  Sense of abandonment was cultivated here.  

- I can count on one hand how many times I saw them intimate (this meaning just holding each other, kissing, etc.)  They always left their br door open, and it was directly adjacent to the living room.  I don't ever remember seeing or hearing anything.  

- Mom openly accusing dad of having pornography, and seeking our support against him (I suppose I was 12 or so).  Later, I found a lot of the pornography he hid throughout the house.  I think this led to an early unhealthy fixation on sex.  

[NewPhoenixRising]

Roles

-I was quite clearly 'The Peacemaker' as the middle child, and I guess I was my father's 'Golden Child', even though he severely verbally/emotionally abused me
-My sister, as the eldest, was 'the Achiever', and was cherished for that, but then was the blackened child too, because she did not do everything my mother wanted her to do.
-My brother was 'The Jester' and was supposed to make people laugh whenever the moment called for it.  

What strategies help us learn to trust while respecting our own safety?

-Learning about dysfunction
-Learning about PDs
-Learning, implementing, and enforcing boundaries
-Limiting contact with the abuser
-Learning about our own feelings and behaviors
-Practicing learned healthy behaviors with those that we feel are healthy
-Venting our anger, and doing it in a way that addresses our abuser
-Forgiving our abusers when we are ready
-Accepting our situation and trying to move forward 'in the moment'
-Letting our hurt and anger go

Where DON'T we fit in the family dynamic?

When we become who we were meant to be when we were born.  When we learn healthy ways, and act in healthy ways.  When we refuse our roles, or any roles.   When we learn that it is okay to just be ourselves, regardless of how our family responds to it.

[nonna12345]

Where DON'T we fit in the family dynamic?

When we become who we were meant to be when we were born.  When we learn healthy ways, and act in healthy ways.  When we refuse our roles, or any roles.   When we learn that it is okay to just be ourselves, regardless of how our family responds to it.

Great insight NewPhoenix and a lifelong goal for all of us ... BPD relationships or not.
I remember someone I respected highly giving me some of the best advice I ever received. In fact, I still practice it to this day when I need to.  "Sometimes, when you are afraid, life drops you on your head, people around you want you to be or act to please them at your expense ... whatever is thrown your way ... keep those training wheels on that bike ... cause it's okay to use an exta set of wheels and pretend you know what you're doing until you are ready to take them off... no one will know the difference." 

I think it is possible to act in healthier ways before we get there ... understand who we are.  This person also had another great piece of advice for those who were hell bent on making a lot of money at the expense of everything else.  Imagine a southern drawl when you read this ... "I ain't ever seen a U-haul behind a hearse".  Priceless.  Humor is a great diffuser.

[joiesophie]

Hi all,

This is harder for me than I thought.  I think it is because I finally DO fit in a system, there is a description for what I lived through.  So many times, I've read about families, and my family had issues, but didn't seem to have a name. Alcoholic dysfuntional, overtly dysfunctional, and now - what I probably had, covertly dysfunctional and narcissistic.

It's got a name.  It wasn't my fault.  It never was - but now it's even more real than before.

Being parentified : That started from the get go.  I think, in a way, that I was born a caretaker.  Sometimes I wonder if people were "happy" or better yet, "relieved" that my mother would have "something to do", when learning I was coming into the world.

Learning to have no needs : I had to be a quick learner in order to survive to, the next year.  Having needs meant needing attention, and, usually, the attention was negative.  This is where people talk about children "acting out" because negative attention is better than none at all.  That wasn't me.  If I wanted something - I needed to plan and hope it was a good day for my mother, sometimes my father and possibly my sister.  Learning to go it alone at the age of 4 is something I did out of survival, not desire.  Did I have a roof over my head and food to eat?  Yes.  And I was reminded of that anytime I wanted anything else.  Being noticed just because I was a person is still something I am getting used to.  

Having trust : This goes right along with having feelings.  It took me, well a very long time to understand I could have feelings and that no one would hit me for having them.  Literally.  When my current therapist would ask me how I felt, I would snap at her "Why do you care?".  Working with a therapist who was willing to wait it out has made all the difference.    And she's waited for several years, patiently.  I had trusted "strangers" (people outside the family) and was usually disappaointed - and no matter how careful I was with my trust, I would be betrayed by authority figures at the least expected times.  Therapists, for example.  I would trust them, and they would just, well, not believe me, or not care.  The first therapist, when I shared just a small instance of how weird my family could be, (after a YEAR of working with her) demanded that I bring in my sister, (who I rarely talk to)to vouch that I was telling the truth.  I felt like the therapist wanted to prove that I was a liar and simply was creating a story.  If I wanted to make up stories, I wouldn't be making this kind up.  

I never considered trusting my family.  That wouldn't make any sense.  And NOBODY would believe me.  

js

[MyBigMouth]

Mom actually said to me once when I was having a serious health issue that she didn't want me to die as she didn't want to mourn me as I should have the pain of having to mourn her not the other way around and she was quite indignant that I possibly might die out of order.

This sounds just like my Gma, my mom's mom, whom it is joked at family gatherings that she was a very unhappy woman.  I don't know, but I've heard horror stories, anyway's I suspect she and my mom are very much bpd.  The reason I brought this up is when my grandfather died, in his late seventies she was mad at him for the longest time, but she was also very much a social person before his death and after she turned into a hermit and secluded herself.  She was definately in mourning but if I remember right we actually talked about it when I was in my twenty's and she said that he wasn't supposed to die before her.  She couldn't be around when we talked about it because she would cry.  She lived eight years longer than he did and she never got "over" him dying.

[MotherSpirit]

Examples of family roles (adding on to those justhere mentioned) include Hero, Family Scapegoat, Rebel, Overachiever, Little Parent. Do other examples come to mind?

Where DON'T we fit in the family dynamic?

B&W

There's also the lost child.  Here's a good website for that: http://www.setyourselffree.com.au/freeresources.html

I was definitely a lost child growing up, but I was/am also a whole mix of things.

Questions:
1. When we look at a family as a system, what insights do we gain?
2. Do the three elements of a narcissistic family (children are parentified, learn to have no needs, lose trust) sound familiar? How?
3. What are examples of overt and covert narcissistic family situations?

1.  The family system, I think, helps us look at how a few or several diverse people can (or attempt) to live under one roof as a structured and functional unit.  It's a biological system, also, something that work, "roommating", etc. are not.  Whereas you can go and find another job, new friends, you cannot choose another family.  Dealing with the different personalities in the family helps, I think, with preparing someone for how to deal with the different personalities outside the family.  Actually, mom's emotional needs (comforting when she was sad) had to be met by us kids because my father was "the reason" she was sad.

2.  I'm not so sure.  The childhood is drawing a blank, but I think some of them definitely came up in adulthood/adolescence.

3.  I'm not sure if ours was totally overt and covert.  We "seemed" normal on the outside.  We did things together and never really put our dirty laundry out.  We had the physical abuser (father) and the less obvious verbal abuser (mom).  I don't know what everyone THOUGHT of us, if they saw that we were such a good happy family.

I have seen families where I really thought they were "normal".  But when I look closer, I think I can see some dysfunction and issues there.

[blackandwhite]

Some more food for thought about how a Narcissistic Family works as a child gets past the simple needs of infancy. As the child meets the family system's needs (as shaped by the parent or parents), he/she:

1. Learns to adapt but that others do not adapt to him/her.
2. Loses opportunities for growth and development.

From The Narcissistic Family: Diagnosis and Treatment, by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman, MSW, and Robert M. Pressman, PhD

As the child's psychological needs become more of a factor in the life of the family, the narcissistic family truly develops. The parent system is unable to adapt to meet the child's needs, and the child, in order to survive, must be the one to adapt. The inversion process starts: the responsibility for meeting needs gradually shifts from the parent to the child. Whereas in infancy the parents may have met the needs of the child, now the child is more and more attempting to meet the needs of the parent, for only in this way can the former gain attention, acceptance, and approval.

This reminds me, among many other good observations in this workshop so far, of what MotherSpirit said:

Actually, mom's emotional needs (comforting when she was sad) had to be met by us kids because my father was "the reason" she was sad.

Classic covert narcissistic family behavior. Again, from the book:

In a narcissistic family the responsibility for the meeting of emotional needs becomes skewed--instead of resting with the parents, the responsibility shifts to the child. The child becomes inappropriately responsible for meeting parental needs and in so doing is deprived of opportunities for necessary experimentation and growth.

This reminds me of what NewPhoenixRising had to say:

- Broken promises - Anything promised was never followed through on.  As a result, the interests I had excitement for were wasted, because I had to jump through unreasonable hoops or she would break promise after promise, and even dashed my own impetus several times. 

Personally, I instinctively refused to participate in activities in school and out because I knew "my mother needed me."

B&W

[NewPhoenixRising]

- Broken promises - Anything promised was never followed through on.  As a result, the interests I had excitement for were wasted, because I had to jump through unreasonable hoops or she would break promise after promise, and even dashed my own impetus several times.  

Personally, I instinctively refused to participate in activities in school and out because I knew "my mother needed me."

B&W

Sounds like you played the 'Caretaker' role very well B&W.  So, I'm assuming there was/is some anger/grieving to deal with in the loss of those opportunities to develop yourself ?  

After I thought about it a bit more, I think I've taken a turn at several of the roles: The Lost Child (probably my predominant role), the Hero (in sports) and later in career (kind of co-Hero with sister), the Surrogate Spouse (with mom in high school), the Scapegoat (since my 'Hero/Scapegoat' sister committed suicide).  I say predominantly the Lost Child because I feel the magical thinking in relationships and life in general, and tendency to withdraw in times of stress, has cost me the most, and has been the most perpetual.  

Finally, I am free of all roles and just trying to undo my dysfunction and live healthy

I've also been thinking that there may have been two, or possibly three, unhealthy dynamics in our family, one caused by my mother, one caused by my father, and one for the family as a whole.  In regard to my father, I was his favorite (Golden Child ?), my sister was kind of Daddy's Little Girl, and my brother was "a mistake" ?.

In regard to my mother, I was the 'Ignored Child', and at times, her 'Surrogate Spouse and her 'Caretaker', my sister was 'the Star' (publicly) and 'the Scapegoat' (privately), and my brother was 'the Baby'.

However, overall in the family dynamic, uBPD mother was 'the Caretaker' and workaholic/alcoholic father was 'the Scapegoat'.  My sister was 'the Achiever' or 'Hero' and then later became 'the Scapegoat' when she couldn't find balance in her life, and became 'needy'.  I was 'the Peacemaker' and the 'Lost Child' and couldn't find a voice in the family.  Later I became 'co-Hero' and then 'the Scapegoat' when my sister was no longer there to be blamed for our family chaos.  And my brother was 'The Mascot' or 'Jester', but has now adopted an extremely pessimistic life-view, and is now being alternately 'Whited' and 'Blacked' by Mom.  Dad has mellowed out, but is still self-centered at heart.