PERSPECTIVES: Family systems--understanding the narcissistic family

[boarderchic]

*skewed responsibility--children meet parents' needs instead of the other way around. Children are parentified.

This feature was definitely present in my family.  From a young age I was parentified and expected to mother my mother.  I cannot remember ever receiving comfort or mothering from her.  As a result of this parentification, I learned:

1.  I was responsible for mom's mental health.  
2.  I was obligated to provide comfort on demand.  
3.  Any rejection of my duty to mother my mother was selfish and cold-hearted.  
4.  Having my own needs was selfish and cold-hearted.  I was to think of mother and only mother.  
5.  Being a good person means taking abuse and any rejection of abusive behavior is selfish and cold-hearted.  I was wrong to hurt my abuser by not allowing her the opoprtunity to treat me badly whenever she needed the opportunity to vent her rage and frustration with life.  It was my job to be her whipping post whenever she needed me to be and to not do so means I'm a terrible person.  
6.  Being my own person was unacceptable.  I was not to have a personality beyond a drive to fill my mother's endless needs.  I was not to have boundaries as mother needed to engulf me lest she feel abadoned and rejected.  I was to allow that and anything less was cold and selfish, and made me a terrible person.  
7.  I was not entitled to a life of my own.  My life belonged to my mother.  

*reactive and reflective--"rather than act on their own feelings in a proactive way" (better not to have feelings that cannot be expressed or validated), "children wait to see what others expect or need and then react to those expectations." Children learn not to have needs or to expect needs to be met.

I certainly learned not to have needs or expect them to be met, and I learned not to have feelings.  It has taken me a long time to really be able to identify the range of emotions I tried so hard to suppress as a child.  This suppression served me well as a child and helped me escape from my dysfunctional family environment, but to become truly functional and healthy I had to re-learn how to identify my feelings and even allow myself to feel them.

I was also pretty much a doormat for a long time because I simply could not put any importance on my own needs.  If someone else had a need, it was automatically and subconsciously deemed more important than any need of mine.  I was often angry and resentful after doing so, yet also couldn't bring myself to assert myself and stand up for my needs because I thought I was a selfish and bad person if I did.  It took a lot of work to become more assertive and realize that no one (except my mother) would hate me or think I was a bad person if I had needs, even if my needs conflicted with theirs.  Conflict didn't have to mean raging argument.  Compromises could be reached to accomodate everyone and I didn't always have to bend over backwards and bury my needs to maintain relationships (work, friends, romantic...relationships of all types).  

*problems with intimacy--children unlearn trust. Although their needs may have been met as infants and toddlers, as they develop and their needs are more complex, the family system buckles. Children learn not to trust their caregivers and, by extension, others.

Although seemingly confident, I was really extremely insecure in my relationships.  I simply seemed confident because I could successfully pretend not to care, a defense mechanism that helped me survive living with my raging mother.    

Overtly narcissistic families are the classic dysfunctional families--easy to recognize, for a therapist at least, if not the individual. The authors point out that even obvious dysfunction is often repressed or denied by those within the family system, noting "the patient who can readily identify the reality of his or her upbringing is the exception, not the rule." In these families, there is often physical abuse, sexual abuse, severe emotional abuse, and/or neglect.

It took me a long time to recognize the full scope of my family's dysfunction.  It was easy for me to recognize my mother's raging, insults, criticisms, and intentional humiliations as abuse.  It was obvious to me that screaming vile names at your daughter was abusive.  It was obvious that chasing me around with a hammer was abusive.  It was not so obvious that it was abusive to make me feel responsible for my mother.  After all, society itself tells us that children should be responsible for their parents, and honor them no matter what.  So when she told me I was a bad person for not bowing to her every demand, it was an easy message to internalize even though on the surface I rejected it.  I knew intellectually she was wrong.  But it took a long time to change the internalized message or even recognize that I had internalized these messages.  Actually, the recognition that my self-esteem was incredibly low and I was a doormat, for instance, was harder than actually changing those things.  I had told myself my mother was wrong to say I was a bad person and thought my self-esteem and confidence hadn't suffered as a result of her constant barage of criticism.  But in reality, I had internalized the message that I was a bad person at the same time I was telling myself she was wrong, and until I accepted that I was a doormat.  Therapy helped a lot as did these boards, because it opened my eyes to the full scope of the abuse and let me recognize it, the first step to fixing it.  

Covertly narcissistic families are more subtle, harder for the therapist--and of course the family member--to recognize. The family may appear "normal," but the "needs of the parents were the focus of the family, and that the children were in some way expected to meet those needs." In these families, there is often emotional abuse and neglect; one sibling may be strongly favored, or a parent may draw all attention to him or herself or expect caretaking from a child or children from a young age. Emotional incest may be an issue.

My family was covertly narcissistic at first, but my mother became less and less capable of hiding her dysfunction over the years.  It is now at the point that she has been banned from several local stores due to her behavior.  But despite how normal we appeared for a long time when I was a child, I realize now that many people noticed something was wrong.  They just couldn't put their finger on what it was.  But somehow my mother's dysfunction was transmitted to them and they felt it.  

[methinkso]

I'm wondering, and B&W and others, I hope you will chime in on this.

Just how much does abuse of power play into the triangulation and how deeply can it run?

One of the numerous triangulations that have gone on, and still go on in my Foo was that momster parentified me but WHILE being a controlling and 'militant' mother (queen). An example for me is that I'd have established plans to go out on a particular evening in my late teens. Momster would brush past ordering me to "Stay home and watch the kids". No discussion, total compliance on my part. Aka my needs, wants and humility did not exist. Not much good for self-esteem I'd guess.

Also, not that anyone has made an issue of this on this thread, but this same triangulation (power) is what feeds into and allows emotional and sexual abuse within the nuclear family, IMO. How many have heard professionals state that the mother is never unaware that a D is being sexually abused by the father? I've heard many. I know that my father knew momster was emotionally abusing me and his quietness granted her permission. This alone could open up more cans of worms. In that scenario there seems to have been no rescuer.

I think that there is never a clean cut triangulation. I think that it gets messy and complex depending also on how many family member's are involved.

I hope the issue of power in triangulating will be probed.

[Cordelia]

So how do people avoid triangulation?  In my family, this happened all the time - if me or my sister misbehaved, my mom used that as a weapon against dad, my mom has said that she saw me as a representative of her mother, as well as, at times, of my dad, and fought out those conflicts in her relationship with me, and she would also tell us, through direct instruction and example, that dad was not to be trusted, and to live in fear of him, that he was unpredictable, judgmental, and potentially violent (none of this was true - it may well have been true of her father, though).  

Since adulthood, my strategy has been to avoid talking about my sister or father with mom, and if she complains about their behavior, to say that she should talk to them about her feelings, not me.  I have also rejected her attempts to get my advice on her relationship with potential love interests, saying I don't have specific advice since I don't know the situation and she surely knows better than I do what the best course of action is.  At first, I gave her innocuous information about my in-laws (i.e., grandma is sometimes forgetful, a new college grad seems unsure what to do with his life, etc.) but have started shutting down those conversations as well, for fear that they will give her more material for manipulation.  All of this shutting down leaves us with very little to say, naturally!  I'm not really sure how to deal with it other than not to respond, and drop with subject, with dead silence if necessary.  With the result that our relationship consists of a symbolic call (which means, I haven't cut you off, we still have a relationship) but no substance, just her complaining about how others mistreat her and silence on my part, padded with her false double-edged happiness for my "perfect life."  It's pretty bleak.

[methinkso]

Hit post too quickly.

Triangulation/power would be a 'must' in a narcissistic family since narcissists operate by having power/control. An interesting statement I once read is that the narcissist demands other's to 'obey'.

[MyBigMouth]

author=methinkso link=topic=108970.msg1074992#msg1074992 date=1262634753]

Also, not that anyone has made an issue of this on this thread, but this same triangulation (power) is what feeds into and allows emotional and sexual abuse within the nuclear family, IMO. How many have heard professionals state that the mother is never unaware that a D is being sexually abused by the father? I've heard many.

Being the mother of a children who were sexually abused I would have to disagree.  I knew that he was emotionally abusive, I would plead with my daughter just do the dishes or he will get mad. I thought he was having an affair. He would leave and work in another state for a week, etc.  He was abusive verbally and I would run after trying to make it all better. It was because the kids didn't do enough chores, etc. I was running in circles and he knew that and he kept the facade going then once in a while he would be nice and help out and I thought wow ok we are making progress. The times he said I'll go to the grocery store you stay here I'll bring (eldest daughter) and that way you can stay and I can have help. It sounded harmless and I thought he was actually listening to my cries for help.  He was molesting her on those trips. I never had one red flag, other than his behavior was weird.  His nice, seemingly understanding persona also filtered to my other kids. I see now his manipulation and his way's of keeping me from seeing what was really going on. Now anything strange or out of the ordinary is a red flag but I still get manipulated by people very easily and it feels like crap. I believe I am not in tune with these things because of the lack of trust for my fear, anger, etc.  So in essence yes I believe the whole triangulation does lend itself to abuse of all sort, however I have to disagree with your thinking that the other person involved see's everything as it is. I do know because he told the DA that I knew that he was doing it, wich he may actually think I did know and somewhere in his messed up head he thought that gave him permission, who knows if he was truthful in that statement or not. From the bottom of my heart I had no idea that was what was going on, I thought he was abusive though and I wish I had the gut's to get out of there sooner.

Being the child of a ubpdm I do know for a fact that my father saw and heard the mean things she did and he chose to ignore it.

[MyBigMouth]

Since adulthood, my strategy has been to avoid talking about my sister or father with mom, and if she complains about their behavior, to say that she should talk to them about her feelings, not me.  I have also rejected her attempts to get my advice on her relationship with potential love interests, saying I don't have specific advice since I don't know the situation and she surely knows better than I do what the best course of action is.  At first, I gave her innocuous information about my in-laws (i.e., grandma is sometimes forgetful, a new college grad seems unsure what to do with his life, etc.) but have started shutting down those conversations as well, for fear that they will give her more material for manipulation.  All of this shutting down leaves us with very little to say, naturally!  I'm not really sure how to deal with it other than not to respond, and drop with subject, with dead silence if necessary.  With the result that our relationship consists of a symbolic call (which means, I haven't cut you off, we still have a relationship) but no substance, just her complaining about how others mistreat her and silence on my part

This is exactly what I have done, but everytime I want to make conversation and I give in and let tidbit's out, she manipulates it. Sarcasm or tone of voice inuendo suggesting I dont know what Im talking about, duh how stupid of me?  I want to get out of this invisible child role, and stand on my own two feet in front of her not just when she isn't around.  It's hard to sit without having anything to say! It's hard to hear her complain about this or that and not say something! It leads to a very uneasy feeling in my stomache and anxiety wether I stick to my guns and deflect like you suggested with directing the responsibility back to her or just have no opinion. The anxiety is higher than I can tolerate and I then get flashbacks of how stupid she makes me out to be. If Im quite Im stupid, if I have an opinion it's stupid. It's a no wind situation and the triangle continues.

[NewPhoenixRising]

I think that there is never a clean cut triangulation. I think that it gets messy and complex depending also on how many family member's are involved.

I agree with this.  I think often the waters become murky when there are multiple family members involved, complicated alliances, and such.

One Christmas, a very infamous one in our family, my sister and I teamed up against Mom and Dad.  It all started with Sister trying to clear off the coffee table, so there was one surface in the house that did not have a mess of papers and miscellaneous junk on it.  Mother would not allow her to do it.  It escalated and Sister was yelling at both Mom and enDad  that 'things had happened', that our family was dysfunctional and parents played an integral part.  Momster was 'fighting back' and I stood up for sister.  enDad backed momster.  Momster and sis began pushing each other (the only time I remember the fam getting physical like that).  I yelled in support of sister, but did not take part in the physical stuff.  Brother was having his own meltdown just wanting us all to stop.  This led to an alliance between sister and I against Mother and enDad.  Although she was still looked on as the main Persecutor, a fissure had formed in the static triangulation where it had been Sister-Persecutor, Mother-Victim, Dad-Rescuer.  I think Brother and I were co-Rescuers, although much lesser than enDad, for Mom before this event.  Before this, Sister did not have a Rescuer on her private phone calls with mother, when I think they were both Persecuting each other.

[blackandwhite]

Boarderchic, thank you for sharing your responses. Really interesting. These points struck me especially as among the common "lessons" of the narcissistic family:

1.  I was responsible for mom's mental health. 
2.  I was obligated to provide comfort on demand. 
3.  Any rejection of my duty to mother my mother was selfish and cold-hearted. 
4.  Having my own needs was selfish and cold-hearted.  I was to think of mother and only mother. 
5.  Being a good person means taking abuse and any rejection of abusive behavior is selfish and cold-hearted.  I was wrong to hurt my abuser by not allowing her the opportunity to treat me badly whenever she needed the opportunity to vent her rage and frustration with life.  It was my job to be her whipping post whenever she needed me to be and to not do so means I'm a terrible person. 
6.  Being my own person was unacceptable.  I was not to have a personality beyond a drive to fill my mother's endless needs.  I was not to have boundaries as mother needed to engulf me lest she feel abandoned and rejected.  I was to allow that and anything less was cold and selfish, and made me a terrible person. 
7.  I was not entitled to a life of my own.  My life belonged to my mother.

Methinkso, power is absolutely a critical part of the family dynamics. You gave an example:

An example for me is that I'd have established plans to go out on a particular evening in my late teens. Momster would brush past ordering me to "Stay home and watch the kids". No discussion, total compliance on my part. Aka my needs, wants and humility did not exist. Not much good for self-esteem I'd guess.

The example doesn't seem to be so much about triangulation as about domination. Your mother wanted you to know that you had no rights. Two quotes from The Narcissistic Family (bolding mine):

Adults raised in narcissistic families do not know that they can say no--that they have a right to limit what they will do for others and that they do not have to be physically and emotionally accessible to anyone at any time. In their families of origin, they may not have had the right to say no, or to discriminate between reasonable and unreasonable requests.

Children in narcissistic families do not learn how to set boundaries, because it is not in the parents' best interests to teach them: the children might use that skill to set boundaries with them!

B&W

[blackandwhite]

There aren't any easy answers with all of this.

Salome pointed out the strategy of refusing to carry information with a redirect:

Since adulthood, my strategy has been to avoid talking about my sister or father with mom, and if she complains about their behavior, to say that she should talk to them about her feelings, not me.

You do have to be very firm and consistent to make this work, but eventually, in my experience, the "let's complain about so and so" (and imagine him/her as the root of all evil) version of triangulation can fade away.

A useful tool when you are being verbally attacked (but being made into a persecutor) is found a TOOLS: Stop accusations and blaming.

B&W

[Cordelia]

Wow, that workshop on stopping accusations and blaming was helpful!  The idea that when someone accuses you of feeling a certain way or being motivated by certain things that you aren't it's a lie told about you to you, and that it's a form of abuse that should not be tolerated...wow.  This was practically a way of life in my family. 

Giving me lots to think about, as usual, blackandwhite!  Thank you!

[MyBigMouth]

So I skimmed through the workshop on stopping accusations and blaming, so is there a way to end the triangulation by simply saying stop. Triangulation comes in all forms and it is sometimes silent and you have no idea what is going on, but when we do see the pattern emerging the actual triangulation in itself is a form of abuse so would saying stop your putting me in the persecutor role and actually calling it what it is help the bpd see that they are using us as a pawn?  Mabe Im taking it too literally.

[blackandwhite]

Triangulation comes in all forms and it is sometimes silent and you have no idea what is going on, but when we do see the pattern emerging the actual triangulation in itself is a form of abuse

Yes!

My reading of it is by recognizing unfounded accusations and blaming and calmly saying "stop" and naming what's going on ("stop the accusations and blaming"), you are stepping off the triangle. You're creating a clear boundary. The other players may perceive your action as persecuting, but it isn't. You're calm. You're simply stating a boundary and putting an end to abuse.

so would saying stop your putting me in the persecutor role and actually calling it what it is help the bpd see that they are using us as a pawn?  Mabe Im taking it too literally.

I think these things have to stay pretty simple to work in these situations, so saying "you're putting me in the persecutor role"--though TRUE!--would probably muddy the waters. You can think it, to help you recognize what's going on, but keep your words to "stop" and "stop the accusations and blaming." Also be prepared for how to enforce the boundary once you set it. If accusations continue, you will probably have to take a time out and leave the situation.

The critical thing is that you see it, you call an end to the behavior, and over time, the behavior is likely to diminish. That's my take, at any rate...

B&W

[blackandwhite]

Thank you again to everyone who participated in this workshop. Your questions, stories, and insights have been terrific. Before we wrap up this phase, I wanted to be sure to include information on recovery from the Narcissistic Family, as outlined in the book by that title referenced throughout this thread.

Five Stages of Recovery from the Narcissistic Family:

1. Revisiting--facing the reality of your childhood

2. Mourning the loss of the fantasy--recognizing that you will never get what you need from your family and grieve that loss

3. Recognition--naming and validating the strategies the child used to survive, but recognizing the strategies may not be helping (and my be hurting) the adult

4. Evaluation--assessing the current situation and deciding what you want to keep and what you want to change

5. Responsibility for change--accepting the reality and working toward change

These stages are similar in general concept to those provided in our Survivors' Guide in the right panel of Coping With Parents, Relatives, or Inlaws with BPD. The Lessons there offer additional tools to work through this process.

The problem was a system that served the needs of the most powerful family members at the expense of the least powerful. The solution, however, is individual--it's about each of us.

The key ideas in getting past our narcissistic families of origin are that recovery:
*is a process
*is difficult but possible
*is within the control of each of us

Note: If you are questioning whether you are currently in an abusive relationship, review Safety First.

[blackandwhite]

Here is the famous "wolf pack" post with another way of describing a dysfunctional family system and the role of the scapegoat in it.

This was written by StillStanding:

One of the principles of systems is that every system is uniquely designed to do what it does and that includes the social structure of the BPD/NPD.  The only way that a system in which one member makes their needs paramount can be maintained is if the other members subordinate their needs to the dominate member. 

One of the things that I have noticed is that whether we are talking NPD/BPD, alcoholic/drug addict, or nasty turd, the social system that maintains the dominant or privileged position of the main player is the system that is termed pack structure.  That is to say that the pack structure normally expressed in the canine is the same structure we see in what we choose to term the "dysfunctional family." 

In pack organization there is one individual whose needs are dominant and who reigns supreme.  There is not a hierarchy.  It is ME and everybody else.  The only way this structure can be maintained is if other members of the structure subordinate their needs to the dominant member (called the alpha in the canine pack).  This is why BPDs and nonBPDs have to hook up together. Ever see a canine pack in action?  Talk about walking on eggshells.  It is the duty and responsibility of the non-dominant members (beta) to please and appease the alpha.

If we could graph this you would see the BPD as at one level and all of the other members of the social system at a lower level.   Interactions would be from the BPD to all other members and interactions between the other members would be controlled or eliminated making the BPD (alpha) the dominate member of the social system. 

Pack structure is the perfect system for maintaining control and blind obedience and fosters dependency and lack of initiative.  Sounds like my family.  Military and paramilitary organizations are set up this way because it serves their purpose. 

In the pack structure it is the alpha's perfect right to attack any one for any reason or for no reason.  Challenges to the alpha are rare because the alpha has random displays of aggression (often pseudo aggression to maintain control) and there is no coalition formation.  One of the ways coalition formation is prevented is by the process someone else has identified as "triangulation."   If alpha is angered at beta1 it just might attack beta2 and beta2 will nail beta1 with a thanks a lot, see what you did.  This is a much more effective method of control, because of the "guilt factor."  True terrorists understand this.  Someone crosses you it is much more effective to punish some innocent than the true perpetrator then the entire pack turns on the guilty party.  This process serves to limit challenges to the dominant member as the risk is too great and you can count on other members standing with the dominant member against you.

In the canine pack one member is often chosen to be the buffer or (mixing animal metaphors I realize) the scapegoat.  This member is termed the omega.  The omega is the "bad child" that is blamed for all that goes wrong.  This is a very important role in the pack and serves to reduce over all conflict in the social system.  I'm sure that many BPD families (packs) have their omegas. 

The point of all this is that each of us has existed in an identifiable and although screwed up social system from the stand point of individual growth and development, one that obviously fits the needs of the BPD/NPD (alpha).  The alpha will do anything to maintain that system.  Including feigning injury or helplessness to regain position and support from the other members of the social system.

Another principle of systems is that they seek to maintain themselves.  So when one of the members tries to break out of role there will be tremendous pressure put on that individual to return to role.  That is why some Ts will require or urge individuals to reduce or eliminate family contact as they work on personal issues.

Don't know if anyone else finds this interesting but I find it fascinating that the structure that the BPD creates is the pack structure, the perfect one for control and obedience, designed to eliminate individuation and personal growth.

I think it is important to see this behavior in a systems context.  It also explains why there are so many similarities in our experiences.  Same system, same outcomes.   

[picturelady]

Many of us who have lived longterm with someone with narcissistic behaviors struggle with some basic issues regarding our personal safety.  We are so used to the theatrics, threats, stalking, etc., that we are the proverbial frog in the pan of hot water.  We tolerate ongoing threats to our own safety, even long after we have left the relationship. We even tell others (including attorneys, guardians ad litem, etc.) that "something bad is going to happen because this situation is out of control," but then we are afraid to act on our own behalf.  This is especially true if there are children involved and we cannot go "no contact" with our ex. 
Is anyone aware of an article re. when to create a safety plan?  I know there are some articles on domestic violence and how to create safety plans.  But I am talking about more covert emotional abuse which is escalating, and the individual has become desensitized and so is at further risk.  I would like to see an article addressing "When to Call the Police."  I have a sister who is divorced from a narcissist, and he has dogged her in court for well over a decade.  He is very abusive towards her and escalating - but he always stops short of doing anything which could be proved.  Recently he insisted on having his parenting time late at night with his son (age 15), after his son's soccer game.  He planned to bring the boy home at 1am.  My sister refused, so this man blocked her car with his.  When traffic backed up behind him he had to move - so he followed her all the way to her house, his bumper nearly touching hers the entire way.  When she got home she put the garage door up and quickly got in the house with her son.  Her ex began calling her home phone and cell phone repeatedly (he sometimes does this for hours.) 
Sorry if this is a confusing post - I'm not really sure how to even articulate this question.  My FOO has a pattern of getting into abusive relationsips - I am well on the way out of mine, but I fear for my sister and her son.  I know it would've helped me long ago to read an article instructing me on when to call the police, or on what behaviors (BEYOND OBVIOUS PHYSICAL ABUSE)never to tolerate, etc.
Thanks for any help,
PictureLADY

[Telios]

This is an interesting thread for me.

 The first thing I thought about when the phrase Narcissistic family came up was that I have thought within the last few years that my FOO was like this.
I was thinking they were narcissistic because they always acted on the outside to people like what a great family we were , esp. if you included all the aunts, uncles and cousins. 

No one ever was willing to admit dysfunction except for the overuse of alcohol in the family, even then, my mom would never admit anyone was really an alcoholic until one of my sister actually admitted it herself.

No one ever saw the many problems that came up over and over again as dysfunction.  Every damn thing that came up was swept under the rug, shrugged off.
All my mom ever said to me about the things I questioned was, Well we can't do anything about it.

My mom was as sick as my philandering, alcohol abusing, immature dad, but in a codependent way.

We all were programmed to focus on their needs, as my mother was programmed to focus on my grandmothers needs.

There was never , ever any real closeness among the five siblings, just posing.  Some are still posing.

I can't wait to be completely healed of the posing, I am working on it every day with the help of Faith Therapy, and the book Codependent no more by Beattie.


 xoxoTelios

[Gettingthere]

I'm wondering, and B&W and others, I hope you will chime in on this.

Just how much does abuse of power play into the triangulation and how deeply can it run?

In my opinion, triangulation is all about the abuse of power, depending on which of the three positions you are in at any given time, you are either exerting too much power in the relationship, or CHOOSING TO GIVE YOUR POWER AWAY, which i think is a way off of the triangle, to choose to keep your personal power. A T made the very important point to me too that in stepping off the triangle, you may well be percieved by other players as a pesrecutor, you have to be clear in your own head of your intentions and that you are not persecuting, you cant change how others interpret things.

B&W, do you or the book have any examples of step 5 of the recovery process? 5. Responsibility for change--accepting the reality and working toward change
I believe that this is where i am now, and as God is my witness, i am trying my hardest not to pass this stuff on to my kids. I am currently readung "Kids who carry our pain", although this is more about codependancy than narcissim.  I have found this, which although brief i thought was a succint way re parenting to prevent narcissm

http://www.family.org/sharedAssets/correspondence/pdfs/LifeChallenges/Responding_to_Narcissism.pdf