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Author Topic: Borderline Personality Disorder and the Impossible Scenario for Nons  (Read 4865 times)
PotentiallyKevin
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« on: February 11, 2010, 10:58:47 AM »

I had a very vivid dream last night. I dreamt about her and it was so real. The dream was reliving one of our many break-ups and my attempts to get her back. I woke up in a cold sweat thinking about it. Her coldness, bitterness, indifference, haughtiness, etc that she was portraying in my dream was a perfect example of how she was every time she discarded me and I flailed about trying to get her back. Like I said, I was very disturbed by all of this, but it got me thinking.

I was watching a video last night about BPD and how therapy tends not to work because the therapists are going about it all wrong. I didn't agree with a lot of this video, because the gentleman was adamant about dropping labels like "BPD" and that personality disorders aren't diseases and therefor should not be treated through pharmacology. The part that I did find so fascinating, was where he compared treating a normal "diseased" person who had depression or bipolar disorder or schizophrenia with treating someone with BPD, or "nondiseased". With a "diseased" person, they actively are seeking treatment from a "healthy" therapist. They understand that they are unhealthy and therefor, reach out to someone who IS healthy that can help them heal.

Not so with borderline. At the root of borderline personality disorder is the feeling of being inferior. Borderlines explicitly feel this way, like they are nothing. If a borderline were to actively seek someone "healthier" than themselves, naturally this person would be viewed as "superior." This elicits a powerful response in the borderline to fight this unequality - the borderline MUST be equal. If a therapist goes into therapy treating the borderline as if they are weak or dysfunctional, the borderline will DO ANYTHING to fight against this appraisal. The only hope for therapy, and I have read that DBT actually uses this platform, is to try and establish and equal, trusting relationship between the "client" and the therapist.

I know this is probably not making a lot of sense right now, as my mind is going 1000000 miles per hour ... one of my "AHA" moments. But i promise you an epic post when I can put this all on paper.

When thinking back to my own relationship, I am now seeing how doomed this relationship was from the get go. My exBPDgf was initially attracted to me because I am what you would consider a "strong" or "colorful" character. I had what she desperately wanted, a sense of control, power and belonging. I have hobbies, friends, goals and am a very vissionary person. What would a borderline want in a person more than that... that is also why borderlines are extremely attracted to narcissists. Narcissists offer the fantasty of power, control, substance...

Anyways, this ultimately lead to why my relationship with her was doomed because she could never respect me for what I possessed because in the end it was threatening to her - it brought out her INFERIORITY COMPLEX.

Although I believe the resent studies and observations on borderline personality disorder are extremely invaluable and have added to mine and the communities understanding on the disorder - definitely causing awareness - but I believe the research is going in the wrong direction.

There seems to be a big backlash to Frued and Psychoanalytic Theory lately. The focus has turned much to the hybrid studies of Behavioral Theory and Cognitive Theory especially with the emmergence of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy as the psychological powerhouse. This recent movement has shifted focus and tried to explain BPD as a trauma based disorder. In fact, I have seen studies claim as high as 80% of borderlines were abuse victims... many sexually abused. There also seems to be a large focus on borderline and PAIN and the catch phrases "Fear of Intimacy, and Fear of Abandonment." Although I do believe that bordelines do have problems in this area, these two are actually powerful manifestations of greater problems at the core psyche. They are: Inferiority Complex, Emmotional and Cognitive Immaturity, and Identity Disturbance.

Borderlines do not fear intimacy or abandonment in the traditional sense. It took me the longest time to grasp this concept, because I could never wrap my mind around why a borderline would sabatoge their safety net. If they really feared intimacy and abandonment, they would clinge to their safety net and probably have Dependent Personality Disorder - not the bizarre behaviors of Borderline PD.

Let me explain my scenario. Like I said before, I am a strong character. I know who and what I am. I grew up being told who I wasn't and what I wasn't capable of doing - and I fought this tooth and nail. Along comes my borderline partner. She initially worshipped me for what I represented - everything she desperately wanted for herself. But, as we became more attatched to one another, my strenghts became insulting to her - just the representation that I was strong, made her feel week and useless. At first this elicits a positive response in the borderline: "I will show him how wonderful I am!" So she bought me gifts and toned her body into a supermodels and praised the hell out of me... everything she could do to try and feel wonderful, needed and important. How did I respond, I treated her like a Queen, bought her gifts, showered her with attention etc. Unfortunatley, borderlines interpret this as YOU being once again superior to THEM. You have just upped the ante and once again they are beneath you...indebted to you.

The next reaction in the borderline psyche is: "If i can't be where he is, I will tear him down to where I am!" Then came the rages, the put downs, the relationship sabotoging... you know the drill. The purpose to all of this was to try and be on common ground - but of course, YOU AS THE NON won't let this happen. Neither would I. All of her attacks were met by my resilience. I was good! I was just! I was wonderful! and I was going to prove this to her! I will make it so she CANNOT see me as she does now!

All this ended up doing was invalidating her quest to become equal. By thwarting her attempts to tear medown, she increasingly felt more shameful, more worthless, more useless... "I can't ever make him feel the way he makes me feel". She hated me for this. All a borderline is trying to do when they pick fights, rage, and be abusive, is force you to feel exactly how they have been feeling all along. Dreadfully confused to why the "world" supposidly treats them this way. If you want to know how a borderline feels most of the time, just listen to their insults and rages, it is key to understanding exactly how they feel the world is treating them.

Anyways, I have to run back to work.

To be continued.
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2010, 12:07:17 PM »

dude jesus.  have I told you lately how amazing your posts are?  you put my thoughts into words all over this place here so eloquently.  thank you
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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2010, 12:12:48 PM »

dude jesus.  have I told you lately how amazing your posts are?  you put my thoughts into words all over this place here so eloquently.  thank you

ditto Doing the right thing
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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2010, 12:41:41 PM »

Mobocracy  x,
I love reading your posts!

I've read a lot of articles and seen a lot of videos regarding BPD and it's "root" cause. This explains a lot and also proves the "child-like" mentality they have. The "if I don't have it you won't have it", "if I don't go, you don't go". For us nons having an adult with "chil-like" behavoirs is beyond confussing, we try to "rationalize" their behavior, but we never will. They are for ever in a "child-like"  mentality until they get help.
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"Taking responsibility for everything in your life gives you the power to change it. Taking responsibility for nothing ensures that you'll stay a victim"

David Viscott
GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?
This board is for members with failed or failing relationships that want to detach from their relationship and relationship wounds. If you are still analyzing the decision to stay, please post on Undecided: Staying or Leaving
All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)
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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2010, 01:12:47 PM »

My uBPDw's sister told me that she had only dated 'intelectually' inferior guys before she met me... she always like to feel more intelligent than her partners, and she almost always dumped them first... her last ex- before me left her, and she took that VERY hard.

I frequently get really hateful comments like '... just because i dont have a PhD from xxx...' she would say it with such a venomous tone in her voice... i really dont care about anyones schooing and qualifications, but for her its a big deal... oh and now she has dug out her degree and has it displayed on her nightstand ! Like a constant reminder of how smart she is.
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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2010, 01:13:03 PM »


I've often thought Mobacracy needed 90% of his posts in a "Must Read" sticky...

Cudos to your insight and empathy for your plight.
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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2010, 01:16:57 PM »



My stbxdBPDw gave me a huge red flag early on that I did not perceive...

she said I'm better balanced than what she is used to.  She said she typically sought out guys who were not as together, intelligent or good looking. (not that I'm all that, imho)... She said she dated guys 'beneath her' because they would always be afraid she'd leave them.  Kept them on a meat hook so to speak.

That bi+ch was ALL icing and NO cake.

Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2010, 01:23:40 PM »




That bi+ch was ALL icing and NO cake.


Awesome expression ! Doing the right thing
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PotentiallyKevin
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« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2010, 01:30:11 PM »

Real quick before I have to go back to work.

Has anyone seen the episode of "The Office" where Dwight keeps doing favors for people so he can be "one up" on them and they will owe him a favor? When he does this for Andy, Andy can't let anyone be "One up" on him, so its back and forth between the two of them. Eventually Dwight goes into a rage about it, neither of them are doing the favors out of kindness, its out of control and power.

I think this is a lot the same with BPD. The acts of kindness are just like Dwight's favors.

Anyways, I promise an epic post. I don't know if i will publish it here or on my blog as I am sure it will be long. It has a lot to do with Alfred Addler's theory of Inferiority Complex etc.

Thanks for the comments.
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« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2010, 01:35:45 PM »

Quote
neither of them are doing the favors out of kindness, its out of control and power.

AMEN!  Doing the right thing

Yes, they do nice things to make THEM feel good. WE have nothing to do with it, but  we liked thinking we did!
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« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2010, 01:36:25 PM »

Real quick before I have to go back to work.

Has anyone seen the episode of "The Office" where Dwight keeps doing favors for people so he can be "one up" on them and they will owe him a favor? When he does this for Andy, Andy can't let anyone be "One up" on him, so its back and forth between the two of them. Eventually Dwight goes into a rage about it, neither of them are doing the favors out of kindness, its out of control and power.

I think this is a lot the same with BPD. The acts of kindness are just like Dwight's favors.

Anyways, I promise an epic post. I don't know if i will publish it here or on my blog as I am sure it will be long. It has a lot to do with Alfred Addler's theory of Inferiority Complex etc.

Thanks for the comments.

I always felt acts of BPD kindness were more like acts of control... if she did something nice, it was to ensure she got a specific response from me... she didnt seem to be able to just be nice for the sake of being nice, or to feel good about herself by doing something kind... she ALWAYS needed the control to be able what she wanted from every act.
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« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2010, 01:45:39 PM »

Yes, my brother - I ditto the praise for your stellar insight.  Doing the right thing  You certainly have my wheels a turning...

Quote
Anyways, this ultimately lead to why my relationship with her was doomed because she could never respect me for what I possessed because in the end it was threatening to her - it brought out her INFERIORITY COMPLEX.
I would add the double adjective, "ultra-gnarly" before the words, "inferiority complex".  grin


Quote
She initially worshipped me for what I represented - everything she desperately wanted for herself.

I once complimented uBPDxgf on her eyes and told her that they projected a woman who was "fiercely independent and simulataneously nurturing". Her response? "Wow. This is the best thing you could have said. This is what I'm going for. How I see myself will be how others see me." 10 minutes later she mimicked my compliment to her by repeating verbatim the same compliment to me. I hadn't thought about that until I studied your post just now. One more reason I thoroughly dig the BPD Family!  


Quote
But, as we became more attatched to one another, my strenghts became insulting to her - just the representation that I was strong, made her feel week and useless. At first this elicits a positive response in the borderline: "I will show him how wonderful I am!" So she bought me gifts and toned her body into a supermodels and praised the hell out of me... everything she could do to try and feel wonderful, needed and important.

Similar here yet again. This is purely speculation, but uBPDxgf was likely threatened by my high activity level. Soon after we began to get serious, she began to make it a point to tell me how she had begun running, hiking to waterfalls, lifting weights, doing hot yoga, and whitewater rafting. She even told me once how she was going to begin running barefoot on concrete (she had never run in her life before I met her) like an indigenous tribe from South America. She did begin to hate me after awhile as well - when I would try to share an adventure I had with her, she would either minimize it or change the subject. She did not want to hear about any of this. I don't think this fully hit me until about 6 months into my enmeshment with her. Admittedly, after I realized this, I stooped below the integrity I know and used this as a way to repay her abuse to me a couple of times.  

Quote
How did I respond, I treated her like a Queen, bought her gifts, showered her with attention etc. Unfortunatley, borderlines interpret this as YOU being once again superior to THEM. You have just upped the ante and once again they are beneath you...indebted to you.

Yes sir. Did anyone else's pwBPD get upset with you if you did not want to accept their (patronizing/manipulative) gifts?

Quote
The next reaction in the borderline psyche is: "If i can't be where he is, I will tear him down to where I am!" Then came the rages, the put downs, the relationship sabotoging... you know the drill. The purpose to all of this was to try and be on common ground - but of course, YOU AS THE NON won't let this happen. Neither would I. All of her attacks were met by my resilience. I was good! I was just! I was wonderful! and I was going to prove this to her! I will make it so she CANNOT see me as she does now!

Wow, brother. I thought a paraphrase version of this exact thought this past summer while pruning tomato plants. I will NEVER forget that moment. "I, Leroy Brown, will never stoop to her level and show her the resilience of a super-human." We see how that worked out, right?  lol I distinctly remember her saying to me once, "Please stop being so nice to me. You are making everyone else in my life seem so terrible." She was cleary projecting her own inner-beast onto others, but the point is, it's quite frustrating for them when we don't stoop to their level.

Quote
All this ended up doing was invalidating her quest to become equal. By thwarting her attempts to tear medown, she increasingly felt more shameful, more worthless, more useless... "I can't ever make him feel the way he makes me feel". She hated me for this. All a borderline is trying to do when they pick fights, rage, and be abusive, is force you to feel exactly how they have been feeling all along. Dreadfully confused to why the "world" supposidly treats them this way. If you want to know how a borderline feels most of the time, just listen to their insults and rages, it is key to understanding exactly how they feel the world is treating them.

uBPDxgf used to talk about other men to me, and would get visibly frustrated when I did not (sometimes pretended not) to let it phase me. She once told me she was having an old flame over to her house and couldn't talk to me because she had to clean up the house for him. When I didn't show much emotion at this, she decided to post a photo to FB of her crudely dry-humping another man in public and asking him to ejaculate all over her again and again. <---That was Mr.Leroy's last straw and the day he went NC and began his trip on the Underground Railroad to Non freedom.  smiley


The sick part is, they will go through life doing this again and again to people. This is precisely why I think a STRONG BPD advocacy campaign should be formed (I am working on some essays I am goingto submit to some mags). Yeah, it'd be nice for the pwBPD, but what about the collateral carnage? Look at The Witness' thread about side effects from dealing with the pseudo-humans with BPD.

In solidarity,
LB
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« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2010, 01:48:34 PM »

Not that it actually helped things much, but many things suddenly became much more understandable to me when it dawned on me that everything was a competition (in the mind of my dBPDw).

Before that realization, with half the problematic things she said I literally couldn't tell what she was talking about.
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« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2010, 01:58:21 PM »

Quote
I always felt acts of BPD kindness were more like acts of control... if she did something nice, it was to ensure she got a specific response from me... she didnt seem to be able to just be nice for the sake of being nice, or to feel good about herself by doing something kind... she ALWAYS needed the control to be able what she wanted from every act.

Yup! Same here, they lack self esteem so they need to be praised all the time because they don't feel it in them.
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« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2010, 02:27:52 PM »

Quote
Similar here yet again. This is purely speculation, but uBPDxgf was likely threatened by my high activity level. Soon after we began to get serious, she began to make it a point to tell me how she had begun running, hiking to waterfalls, lifting weights, doing hot yoga, and whitewater rafting. She even told me once how she was going to begin running barefoot on concrete (she had never run in her life before I met her) like an indigenous tribe from South America. She did begin to hate me after awhile as well - when I would try to share an adventure I had with her, she would either minimize it or change the subject. She did not want to hear about any of this. I don't think this fully hit me until about 6 months into my enmeshment with her. Admittedly, after I realized this, I stooped below the integrity I know and used this as a way to repay her abuse to me a couple of times. 

Yeah, mine eventually started raging at me about how abusive it was of me to demand she look like a supermodel... definitely a W.T.F moment! I never once demanded anything of her, told her she would always look beautiful to me, and if she wanted to get in shape to do it for herself and not me. Ahhhh the projections. "Do you know how hard it is to pass up my favorite foods! I have aesthma! I could die running, but because you hate fat women I have to run in this pollution!"

Oh you little hero, you.  barfy

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4. Something possessing the capacity for growth or development.
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« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2010, 04:37:10 PM »

I beg to differ when folks say BPD is not a disease like schizophrenia, etc. These projections which we see, the denial, lies, painting black and white, stealing, etc., and overall refusal to acknowledge past crimes of the heart, mind, body, and soul, are all also symptomatic of schizophrenia without the major delusions.  I have personally witnessed these parallels. 
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« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2010, 05:53:02 PM »

I have witnessed that too glenn.

As the illness continues, psychotic symptoms develop:

    * An appearance or mood that shows no emotion (flat affect)
    * Bizarre motor behavior in which there is less reaction to the environment (catatonic behavior)
    * False beliefs or thoughts that have nothing to do with reality (delusions)
    * Hearing, seeing, or feeling things that are not there (hallucinations)
    * Thoughts "jump" between unrelated topics (disordered thinking)

sound familiar to anyone?
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« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2010, 07:15:14 PM »

My strong, dedicated, community orientated personality is what attracted my ex and what she loved about me. After a while it became sickening to her. She then began bringing me down to her level (even though I didn't let her)

Excellent initial post mobocracy and a great discussion everyone else!



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« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2010, 08:29:52 PM »

I beg to differ when folks say BPD is not a disease like schizophrenia, etc. These projections which we see, the denial, lies, painting black and white, stealing, etc., and overall refusal to acknowledge past crimes of the heart, mind, body, and soul, are all also symptomatic of schizophrenia without the major delusions.  I have personally witnessed these parallels.  

I completely agree

There are also studies that show that there really is a physical problem in their brain. I've studied this illness for a long time and I've come to the conclusion that it really is a physical issue on their part with their brain which leads to psychological issues for not only them, but with everyone else around them, since we're trying to rationalize a problem that isn't psychological at it's core, but physical.

You can spend countless hours and countless threads rationalizing, debating, and wondering but it really comes down to the simple fact that there really are developmental issues with actual areas of their brain which are extremely reliant upon chemicals such as seratonin for example. All the caring, validation, love, support cannot compete with something like that.

You have to understand that this "disease" and yes it's a disease is a lot worse than you realize. They are truly very sick people that need a lot of help.
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« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2010, 08:41:15 PM »

That definitely makes sense.  Great insight.
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