BPD BEHAVIORS: Why marriage counseling so often fails

[angst]

The confusion I have MissInterpreted, is this...Altho boundries can be difficult to respect, they are important...is it that you don't care for his boundaries? I mean from my understanding, boundaries should be reasonable and fair, tho they may be difficult to respect. Why in the world would you merely "go along" with a reasonable boundary? And, why would a reasonable boundary, lead to a "argument that spins out of control"?

I guess this confuses me also.

[Escher450]

We started with a T/MC and had said we had "communication" and "money" problems. But that was just the tip of a very large iceberg. I think our T saw through it very quickly based on her behavior in the sessions - lashing out at me, screaming, etc. After several sessions it was clear we weren't making any progress. (By way of example, it took us more than 2 sessions to hammer out guidelines for our interaction in the sessions. Something the T said to me should have taken about 10 minutes.) So our T suggested that perhaps our "individual issues" were making it difficult to proceed.

In one of the first sessions with me alone, he looked at me and said "you are in an abusive relationship." To have the said so bluntly was really shocking - even though I knew it to be true. I told him about reading Eggshells and he was pretty definite that I was on the right track.

A couple of weeks ago she asked that I join her individual session - which, against my better judgment I did - and that resulted in a very harrowing experience - having my car rammed by her car, me leaving the house, cop escort to get some things, the whole bit. Getting ready now for divorce proceedings.

In short - starting MC was good for me - but not because of MC; it only opened my eyes to what was happening to me, confirmed my fears about her BPD, and set me on a better path. Things are likely to get a lot worse before they get better, but an end is in sight.

[MissInterpreted]

Altho boundries can be difficult to respect, they are important...is it that you don't care for his boundaries? I mean from my understanding, boundaries should be reasonable and fair, tho they may be difficult to respect. Why in the world would you merely "go along" with a reasonable boundary? And, why would a reasonable boundary, lead to a "argument that spins out of control"?
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Of course boundaries should be reasonable and fair, but if the ones he is using  are not, who is going to tell him that without an argument? It isn't as if we sit down with our BPD partner and say, "ok, here is a boundary I am putting into place..." We simply do it, feeling it is fair and hoping they will voluntarily comply - most times without even realizing it. If we could sit down and rationally discuss the necessary boundaries with them and have them agree to it all, then we wouldn't be here discussing it with each other, because there wouldn't be a problem, right?
The fact is that he is going to do what he does and either I can deal with it or I can argue with him about it. What I meant by things being better, is that we don't argue about it anymore because I don't have the energy, so I "gave up". He will never see it any other way than as it is pictured in his head and we all know that we cannot change them or their viewpoint of the world as they see it.
So to your questions, "Why in the world would you merely "go along" with a reasonable boundary? And, why would a reasonable boundary, lead to a "argument that spins out of control"?" They are not reasonable, they are self-serving, and they lead to arguments because initially I would not agree to allow him to continue to BE self-serving.

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[angst]

Altho boundries can be difficult to respect, they are important...is it that you don't care for his boundaries? I mean from my understanding, boundaries should be reasonable and fair, tho they may be difficult to respect. Why in the world would you merely "go along" with a reasonable boundary? And, why would a reasonable boundary, lead to a "argument that spins out of control"?
-------------------------
Of course boundaries should be reasonable and fair, but if the ones he is using  are not, who is going to tell him that without an argument? It isn't as if we sit down with our BPD partner and say, "ok, here is a boundary I am putting into place..." We simply do it, feeling it is fair and hoping they will voluntarily comply - most times without even realizing it. If we could sit down and rationally discuss the necessary boundaries with them and have them agree to it all, then we wouldn't be here discussing it with each other, because there wouldn't be a problem, right?
The fact is that he is going to do what he does and either I can deal with it or I can argue with him about it. What I meant by things being better, is that we don't argue about it anymore because I don't have the energy, so I "gave up". He will never see it any other way than as it is pictured in his head and we all know that we cannot change them or their viewpoint of the world as they see it.
So to your questions, "Why in the world would you merely "go along" with a reasonable boundary? And, why would a reasonable boundary, lead to a "argument that spins out of control"?" They are not reasonable, they are self-serving, and they lead to arguments because initially I would not agree to allow him to continue to BE self-serving.

Ok I see...sorry, it was confusing, still kinda is actually. Then they're aren't boundaries, rather self-serving agenda's...this was off topic a little anyway, was just kinda confusing.

[hendo123]

Having previous individual therapy will make a HUGE difference in whether or not MC works, since those who are willing to get individual treatment are the ones who recognize - at some level - that they need help and are willing to seek out and work towards getting healthier.

Sadly, a great many of the members here don't have partners who fit that criteria. They have partners who are deep in denial and blame, leaving the non the focus of everything that is wrong. Without the ability to self analyze, then progress is pretty much doomed from the start.

Adding to those poor statistics is that so many nons feel like helpless victims too, so they wind up feeling stymied and unable to enact any changes on their own.

And round and round you go 

I find this topic very interesting, as me and my wife are going to MC at some point. Both of us are already in individual counselling (my wife's appears to be going well, mine less so, due to having a T who can't even remember what I told her in the last session - only had two sessions, but seriously considering looking for another T).

In my situation I am hopeful by your words UFN that those engaged in individual therapy have a greater chance of making MC work. My wife is also, at points, very reflective and shows great insight into her past, her behaviour and her need to change. All of that gives me hope - what I'm worried about is that she is saying it could be up to a year before she feels ready to start MC (i.e. after she has dealt with her own issues). I'm worried that is a long time before you start, especially as she is currently living seperately (though we have very regular contact, every day, only difference being i no longer sleep in the same house as her most nights). Is there an optimum time after individual counselling starts that MC should begin, or is it the same answer to "how long is a piece of string"?

[GreatDad]

In her "Essential Family Guide," Randi Kreger explains the pitfalls of MC with a Borderline.  It is a six stage process, and mine went exactly the way she said it would go (only read the book after the fact).  Someone should post the six stages, and I remember she says they are almost certain to happen, or something like that or as certain as the change of the seasons.  One of the thigs she says, and I had happen, was a MC who wasn't privy to the BPD issue (I really didn't focus on it, but it all makes sense now) could validate and reinforce the pwBPD's blame.  Soooooooooooo true.  It invigorated my stbxw.  How can you both take an inventory when only one of you has eyes?

[GreatDad]

Reminds me of a cartoon (Bill Eddy gets the credit; it's in his book).  The cartoon features a teenage girl sitting in her bed with her mom, who is standing over her from the hallway, folded arms, looking frustrated.   The daughter says, "So I blame you for everything.  Well, whose fault is that?"

[tranch]

Wow, I'm glad this topic was introduced! I'm starting MC next week. I've never been in any type of therapy (went with her to one of her sessions with an old T, and witnessed her sit there, literally like a shy and mad 10 year old, talking only when pried open...[i thought: i'm paying for this?])

Her new T i think she trusts more and opens up to. She also has specific BPD experience and is a DBT group leader/teacher (although not for the group my wife attends). My wife wants help and to improve herself and our marriage too, so I guess I'll report back. Thanks greatdad, I will look into the Essential Family Guide to find out what to watch out for.

[T2H]

Yay, my first non-intro post!  Thought I might be able to add something a bit different here.  Since I've never been married and am getting older than most that have, I'm now trying to have complete relationship cycles in 2 years or less.  My second last gf and I were together just under 1.5 yrs.  At around the year mark, we went to CC.  I suspected she might have NPD by that point (only thing I could find online to explain the bizarre things that happened - but now I think she may have had both strong B and N traits).  Anyway, I was actually going sincerely to see if we could work things out, improve our communication, etc (I was also in IC during that time - she had only gone once before on her own for a few sessions to get over some issue she had with her dad) - I didn't need the T to say it was all her fault or that she had a PD or anything like that.  I picked two people and said she'd have the choice on which one we'd go back to after the initial visit.

With the first one (who seemed to be more on her side - and of course who she picked later), I ended up looking crazy right at the end of the session because my ex whispered something that set me off and then claimed she didn't say anything (and the T didn't see/hear it).  My ex (who essentially admitted later the only reason she was going was to find out how the therapist would tell me I was crazy) said afterwards that she was glad the T could see how crazy I really am - and when I attempted to tell her using effective communication that my feelings were hurt, she called me a "big fat crazy baby."   (but at the time not very nice ;( )

Anyway, I was prepared for the second round with printouts - the T gasped at some of the incredibly hurtful things I listed that my ex had said to me on the several times I attempted to break up with her.  Then she witnessed us have an argument about a recent trip where my ex harassed me for two solid hours until I finally blew up (and then she gave me the silent treatment all evening/night) - it was mind-boggling, she would say "You did/didn't do [this]" and I would give her an example of how that's exactly what I did, and then she would say "but you didn't say it in [this] way" and I would give an example of that - and it just went on and on to ridiculous levels.  Clearly this time she was the one not looking so pretty.  Funny that after the first session, my ex suggested that we both agree to leave things from T in T and just go on with the rest of our day normally - but after that one she was furious (she rarely got visibly mad - she was quite good at getting her way without raging) and said "how dare you suggest we go to dinner after what you pulled in there?".

So she picked the first T - we went back, tried some effective communication - I went first - was fine.  Then I said some stuff and my ex had absolutely no idea how to reflect, validate, etc - couldn't even start.  So the T bit by bit fed her lines until she said the whole thing - completely unemotionally, like a robot.  That night, after sitting through the second half of dinner under silent treatment because I asked the wrong question, I decided to end things - she agreed (but then tried to get me back many times after).

ANNNYYYWAAYYYY so for my most recent gf (who does know something's wrong, has been in T previously for several years, and had a T who told her that she has strong BPD traits), she actually went to MC without me.  Yep, with her H.  They were separated when we met but that was one of the excuses she gave to give him another chance (and strung me along with) that she had to make sure she tried everything with him to make things work.  He seems to have strong N traits so the 2 or 3 sessions that they went to failed spectacularly (because of him, according to her, of course - but she's probably right - he never really listens/understands/follows-up - btw, I've met him!).  Yet she stays.  And because I'm in lo... I mean, codependent, I helped/supported her - to the point of almost killing myself (several times) - and am now for some crazy reason still considering whether or not we should be friends.  But currently have gone NC and am doing my best to stick with it.

I would really be interested to know how CC with her and I would have gone (if we'd had the chance in the future).  I definitely agree with what UFN wrote in the initial post anyway.  My IC said (with the first one above) that if I'm going to go to CC, (as is said often here...) I should focus on myself and my contribution (positive and negative) to the relationship - and the only thing needing addressing between the two of us would be better communication (although I'm not sure this part is the whole picture if a PD is involved).

Btw, I have a friend who has a (now-ex) gf (who appears to have strong B traits) who tried going to CC - they kinda went sporadically and it didn't really help much with them (although it did a bit, and *he* seemed to benefit somewhat) - they were also having IC with the same person - which I don't believe is really that good an idea from what I understand (and it did seem that there were some things going on that shouldn't have - like the T telling my friend what his gf said in her IC session...)

[Wanda]

My Husband and i went to theropy like 12 years ago him for his anger me for my codependance at the time that was a must we were separated and we made rules and one of them was to seek help to find out what was wrong. WE each had our own Therapist,
 now through his therapist he told me that myhusband had a personality disorder and then through mine we came up with BPD, and that is when i started reading and learning coping skills,.
 So in a way this is where THerapy helped it helped me i continued for a year so did my husband blamming me, for everything he couldn't take any of the blame.
 during this year like i said i became stronger, and learned alot. i told him things had to change and they did but that was because i started setting some strong boundaries, and using the tools given to me.  after about a year and we got back to gether I beleived the Theapist told him about him having a personality disorder and then he was to never returned, i kept just learning what i could. but THerapy got my husband to see he needed AA again due to he got out, and so i can say THerapy helped but not in the way i would of liked due to my husband sees no proublem.

[MaybeSo]

Of course boundaries should be reasonable and fair, but if the ones he is using  are not, who is going to tell him that without an argument?
What kind of boundaries are you talking about here?

Ditto...I am wondering if his attempts at 'boundaries' are actually something else.  Many of us, upon our first attemtps to set boundaries, were not really setting boundaries...rather, we confused boundaries w/ trying to dictate the behavior of another person.  Which, usually, doesn't work, and doesn't go over well w/ the other person.

Boundaries, correctly done, may still not go over well w/ the other person...in deed, they usually do not!...but, I would be curious hear an example of one his boundaries.  What was it, how was it communicated (often they aren't even communicated but just acted on).   

[MissInterpreted]

Actually, he has decided that his work and the things he feels he needs / wants to do WILL come first regardless of anything else planned and he has "enforced" this by just doing it, or by constantly "telling" me he must tend to his things first (to the point that I feel I am lectured about it daily). He feels this is necessary because he believes I am selfish and put myself before any of his needs. The fact is, there was a time when I had issues with him spending a lot of time at work, earlier on in the relationship...and it was due in part to the "activities" that had taken place "at work" before we were married. I have since changed that behavior because the relationship has brown, obviously. However, I still can't seem to get credit for that and he still feels the need to "remind" me he has things to do as well, even when I haven't said anything about it! He lived where he works, if that helps clear things up regarding the "activities" I mentioned. I have even asked to HELP him, and he still goes into his speech about how he has things he needs to do, etc etc etc...
Additionally, it was HE who decided he wanted to spend every waking moment of the day with me and then when he figured out that the things he needed to attend to were falling apart because of this, it became my fault that his things were not getting the attention they required, of course.
No win...

[MaybeSo]

hey...are you married to my fiance?

It sounds like there were some fairly signifiant trust issues caused by past behavior?  There certainly was in my case, too.

Additionally, it was HE who decided he wanted to spend every waking moment of the day with me and then when he figured out that the things he needed to attend to were falling apart because of this, it became my fault that his things were not getting the attention they required, of course.
No win

ughh...This sound very familiar, too.   Before DBT therapy, and especially the first year of the relationship, my finace did the EXACT same thing.  He overextended himself in requiring he be w/ me all the time...to the point where it actually felt werid to me, and I actually was verbally encouraging him to back off and to get back to work (he owns his own business) but I had to do that very carefully becasue I had already learned how hyper sensitive he was to any perceived critisizm.  Despite the gentle proding to quit gloming onto me and to get back to work...he usually wouldn't...he had all sorts of excuses why not including that he'd been in a horrific 16 year long marriage and now that he'd found me (his perfect partner) he was more intersted in making the most of our time together and work could always wait.  And work did wait.  Until, finally some kind of crises would ensue (cause he'd not been engaged in work for so long).  Then, he'd grow extremely anxious, and would withdraw abruptly and almost completely, which would stimulate alarm in me especially when just days earlier I couldn't even get him to leave me alone...and when I'd try to check in to see when he was ever going to be availabe again, he'd speak to me in blaming terms about how he'd sacraficed his work to be with me...w/ a tone that suggested I had REQUIRED this of him.  It did feel like a no win...and it was crazy making.   We repeated this cycle on and off for the first year or more.

Over time and w/ therapy...his communication skills became better...he takes more ownership now of his own impulses and decisions.  Part of the crazy- making stuff was really crappy communciation skills, and part of it probably was a desire to off load the anxiety he was experincing by finding someone who 'caused it' who he could blame his bad feelings on.  That was really a bad habit and he is not so quick to do that anymore, but it took quite a while becasue in his FOO...that's how people operate...there's always someone or something outside of 'self' to blame, and no one takes any responsibility for their own lives/decisions.  

Now that he's been in DBT...he 'gets' that if he drops the ball on an aspect of his life, there will of course be consequences, and he is the one in charge of creating balance in his own life, not me, and not anyone else.  His first attempts to try to do this...were also...clumsy...and to me, his style was pendantic and abrasive.  I think he is less so now.  

To be honest...this, and all the other crazy making stuff, and the trust issues...did make me act out in a way that looked very borderline.  I gave him an article about bpd so that he might see himself...he probably saw me...I don't care...it got him into DBT therapy where he has learned skills that make him sooo much easier to live with!  If he thinks all his learned skills were necessary to handle MY borderline traits...that's fine by me!  There's more than one way to skin a cat!  I don't even CARE anymore who the BPD is...I'm just gald this crazy making b.s. no longer permeates our lives!

[mwamvua]

We've just been to our fourth session of MC. My bpdh is loving the attention and he is getting something out of it. I am not really, but am conscious of taking a back seat to allow H to explore himself. Yesterday he actually broke down and cried in our MC session. This was about his sister who died 40 years ago. Obvious he had never been able to grieve before. However, this self revelation has made him very anxious and he's now in a blue funk and picking on me for all kinds of stuff - mainly to do with money. I have poured myself a large brandy and have gone to bed in the spare room.

[Nutts45]

I suggested MC just to start somewhere.  My H responded why, I wouldn't listen to anything that they would say I needed to work on.  So when he did his little song and dance on how I was the one with the problem and continued to tell me why.  He opened the door, I took it, made my own T appointment.  I will say he did try to sabotage me making it..didn't work.

Am so glad I went to my T, and luck had it that I found a good one.  When I repeated that my H wants to do joint..she said not in mine or his best interest and because of the problems of black and white he would have to see a different T.  She recommended another T and he has an meet and greet appoint friday with a new T..who does at least work with personality disorders.

Even now..I shudder to think, what MC would have been like..especially after a session.

The worst part out of it all...I have worked with mental health clinics in the past...but the realization on the time frame encompassed with setting appoints, waiting, referring to another..my heart really goes out to those seeking help.

[Escher450]

dsnutt: I can tell you exactly what it would have been like - disaster after disaster. Your T is exactly right - and mine came to the same conclusion after meeting with us jointly for a few sessions. We've stopped that. I'm doing my individual now. I'm NC with my W but I think she was going to continue with the same T. He actually asked if I thought that would be ok, which I thought was nice of him. He did mention that she needed a "higher level of care" than he might be able to give.

In short, seems like you are on the right path and your T did you a big solid.

[Nutts45]

My T was going to see him.  I told her that it would not bother me but she had to know that he had already brought up that I probably poisoned him against here.

Although I really wanted a T for him that is as good as mine.. I had previous read some post on this, I did not hesitate to bring it up. 

[MissInterpreted]

Missinterperted for what it's worth...IF you are accused of being BPD...it's not a bad thing...IF your mate is truly convinced, then HE should be the one reading up about how to deal with you. And at the same time, you learn about how to take care of yourself and recognize some of your own bad habits and fix them.

Couldn't agree more! I guess it is just so frustrating that they can't take a look in the mirror because they are too busy looking at us. My husband won't ever look at himself in a BPD light and that is just a shame. I am certain he reads up on BPD because he uses little "treatments" and "tricks" that he learned and they frustrate the hell out of me because I feel like I have to play the game just to keep the peace. I am truly not happy at all because of this game...it only makes me feel that as long as he has me to work on (and fix, and blame and "treat") that he will never try to fix himself (because in his world, he requires no fixing).
I will agree that I had MANY BPD traits back in the day but I have worked very hard to change those things within myself that even I felt were unacceptable. I am a better woman for it too. I love me!   

[angst]

Missinterperted for what it's worth...IF you are accused of being BPD...it's not a bad thing...IF your mate is truly convinced, then HE should be the one reading up about how to deal with you. And at the same time, you learn about how to take care of yourself and recognize some of your own bad habits and fix them.

Couldn't agree more! I guess it is just so frustrating that they can't take a look in the mirror because they are too busy looking at us. My husband won't ever look at himself in a BPD light and that is just a shame. I am certain he reads up on BPD because he uses little "treatments" and "tricks" that he learned and they frustrate the hell out of me because I feel like I have to play the game just to keep the peace. I am truly not happy at all because of this game...it only makes me feel that as long as he has me to work on (and fix, and blame and "treat") that he will never try to fix himself (because in his world, he requires no fixing).
I will agree that I had MANY BPD traits back in the day but I have worked very hard to change those things within myself that even I felt were unacceptable. I am a better woman for it too. I love me!   

Wow! The commonality of many of the post's on this forum are eerily similar. I simply can't comment confidently because I am so new to all this, yet I will say this...take heart, if your husband is interested enough to read and learn, he will learn in short order that this IS about him, and not you. The content of this site at least, has little to do with who's who, and what's what...as much as it is taking personal responsibility to improve oneself...that's what I've learned at least.

If there's one singular fact that I have learned here, and CONTINUE to learn...is that from all the research I do, and this site also, is about ME! It's not so much a label of BPD, and who has it, or not...the sypmtoms are so complex and varied it's vuirtually impossible to accurately diagnose...that's the not the point for me here...for me it's recognizing how I can be a better person. In that regard, it's EXTREMELY been helpful.

[exfundamentalist]

My borderline wife and I have been going through counseling for a couple of months now. After a few sessions, the counselor told me privately that he detected that she has bpd. His awareness of this does help with the counseling, because it enables him to treat it as a "bpd situation". He told me not to tell her that she has bpd, but to let him gradually work towards the possibility of reccommending medication to her in one of the upcomming sessions without even mentioning the words "bpd". He says that eventually, no matter how carefull he is, he is sure to do something or say something that will trigger her anger towards him. My wife does a lot of the talking and the marriage counselor asks a lot of questions... If only my wife could see how ridiculous some of her "thinking" is - she would be embarrassed. It is truly "nuts" how she takes and interprets things. The counselor told me in private that I need some stress relievers like working out and taking walks. That is for certain! I almost feel like I need to be hospitalized after dealing with years of my wife's abnormal thinking, intense fits of anger at me, and verbal abuse. If I could only get someone to "babysit" my wife for one week, so I could get one week to detox from her, I'd be greatly relieved. Her secular job is a blessing, because it is about the only think that gets her out of my hair, so I can have a little space and sanity!