COMMUNICATION: How to stop circular arguments

[Wanda]

THis is a good topic because for the longest time this was where i was stuck trying to prove my point, or justify my reason alot steam from i knew my husband was mentally ill but i don't think i accepted it.
 once i did things started changing i did start walking away from those round and round arguments .
 and adventually my husband knew this was just not up for dicussion, and when i came back it now isn't brought up again due to i will leave again, i realized you can't validate in the mist of  my husband being disregulated all i can do is leave..   and this usually don't last long. this is a good topic thanks UNF i think many of us get stuck on this, and forget they are mentally ill , or we have a hard time accepting it we expect a normal argument. which makes it hard to remember not to do the don'ts as you say.. good topic again

[an0ught]

This is a situation I often find myself in.  I used to try and defend myself..that was pointless.  I used to argue back..that only escalated the fights to atomic portions.  Now, I just sit there quietly..tell her I am sorry and I love her.  She gets mad that I have nothing else to say, but nothing I say ever helps. I realize this now.  I just need to keep my head down and pray for the storm to pass.

ifsogirl got a point, this is really a boundary question after running a circle once or twice.

Now telling her you love her while she is angry is damaging as she is angry and expressions of love will obviously not be in sync with her emotions. This means your words will be perceived as invalidating and will make matters worse in the short as well as in the long run. Invalidation contributes to her emotional confusion - the very problem her DBT is supposed to fix.

http://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=81442.0

[havana]

Anyone in a r/s with a pwbpd for any length of time knows what to do. Don't let it get started 9 times out of 10 you can see it coming from a mile away. On the 10th one you walk away.

Although I must admit I like to stick around once in a while just to see how ridiculous it gets.

[Katy-Did]

Ah, ...the conflict cycle.  My H is especially skillful in this area...it's one of his best "tools".  It takes a finely-tuned radar to tell the difference between a "set-up" versus an attempt to constructively discuss an issue.  If it smells funny...I may nose around a bit... but generally, I leave it alone.  If it's legitimate, he'll usually bring it up again w/o the "odor".      However, it takes a lot of restraint b/c  he knows I just love to explain...instruct...and lecture. 

[united for now]

We aren't - and shouldn't be - our partners emotional caretakers.

When they become abusive - our only responsibility is to walk away and take care of ourselves. Abuse should never be tolerated.

When they become upset and abusive - is their responsibility to find healthy ways to cope with their emotions that isn't abusive to others. If they are feeling suicidal due to feeling overwhelmed and flooded with fears, then it is their responsibility to find the appropriate help for themselves.

Think of it this way, if she's upset - does that give her the right to burn the house down? Smash all the windows on the car? run down the street naked? Being upset doesn't give you the right to do whatever you want. It isn't a license to harm others.

She is responsible for her stuff - keeping her side of the street clean.
You are responsible for your stuff - keeping your side of the street clean.

If she is trying to make you responsible for her stuff - hand it back to her and mind your own business.

[luckystrikes]

this is a great thread. i admit ive gotten sucked into a million circular arguments, with my ex, and other romantic interests. i know to walk away when it just gets ridiculous, but its damn difficult. you come up with those bullet proof succinct arguments, and watch it sail over their heads every time, and yet youre still surprised. i ALWAYS found things to go better and be more manageable when i would force a time out, and stop responding.

[MindfulJavaJoe]

I would have to agree. Great thread.

feeling = facts was hard for me to get my head around for so long. I used to make the mistake of thinking that I was dealing with someone who was rational (despite all the irrationality I experienced).

When together I never though of my ex as being unwell or having a serious mental health disorder. I never saw that it was this that affected her perception and her thinking to a degree that she sees the world entirely differently to me.

Knowing what doesn't work is key. I have over the years we were together spent so much time and energy just trying to have a reasonable chat about our relationship or or any differences we had. She would avoid these at all cost but then would explode like a volcano. This I came to realise was her comfort zone. High conflict, circular arguments, blaming and gaslighting. The latter were her favorite weapons. More often than not I would eventually back down (failed to set another boundary) and she would have succeeded in her mission which was to control me. In time I learnt to walk away. I did this to give us both space but I made the mistake of not telling her I was comming back (even though it was obvious to me). Simply walking away without explaining triggered all of her abandonmnet fears. To her I was gone for good, never to return. To me I had just stepped out for a hour or so for things to cool down.

Now that I am out of the FOG I see all this much more clearly. It is easiest not to engage in arguments with her. In fact any dialogue with her is usually a mistake. As we divorce and as we struggle to agree anything regarding property, Money, Children. Conversations, Text messages and emails are kept short, to the point and if longer than a sentenance are too long. Now the relationship is over I find that keeping an air of calm indeifference works best for me.

If you are still in an active relationship with a pwBPD is is not about winning the arguement. This type of closure will only invalidate your partner.

Walking away and taking a time out. I couldn't take a time out in another room without the door being kicked down so I would have to leave the house. Setting firm boundaries that you hold. Maintining a calm demenour and not reacting to having all your buttons being pushed is so important.

When you are in a relationship and in deep you will have invested so much of yourself just to hold things together that your own judgement and your own perceptions cannot be trusted. Only once you are out of the FOG do the reality of the situation reveal itself and the fantasy of what you think you are in begins to disapppear.

Thank you for this thread. I wish that I had read and understood it years ago.

[flatspin]

This is a situation I often find myself in.  I used to try and defend myself..that was pointless.  I used to argue back..that only escalated the fights to atomic portions.  Now, I just sit there quietly..tell her I am sorry and I love her.  She gets mad that I have nothing else to say, but nothing I say ever helps. I realize this now.  I just need to keep my head down and pray for the storm to pass.

ifsogirl got a point, this is really a boundary question after running a circle once or twice.

Now telling her you love her while she is angry is damaging as she is angry and expressions of love will obviously not be in sync with her emotions. This means your words will be perceived as invalidating and will make matters worse in the short as well as in the long run. Invalidation contributes to her emotional confusion - the very problem her DBT is supposed to fix.

http://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=81442.0

That's one of the hardest things for me to do.

Everytime we had a problem, she wanted to divorce me. Everytime we had a happy news or event, she was in love with me.

Well, obviously, I've been told hundreds of threats of divorce. After a while, she noticed that her threats had no effect on me. Back then, I didn't know about BPD so I would make huge mistakes. I would keep telling her "I love you, I miss you" and so forth while she was insulting me and expressing her hatred for me... She might have thought that I was making fun of her.

She used to reply : "I don't love you anymore, I want to divorce and you're acting as if I had said nothing. You are delusional, stop thinking that I still love you." And it's true, I was acting as always because, after having heard hundreds of declarations like those, I didn't even listen to them.

Honestly, how is it possible to validate such words ? I have been lost for words for months... As I didn't know about BPD, I wanted to be kinder and more loving in order to placate her but it would just make things worse. So, everytime I was being romantic or else so she feels less mad at me, it was just adding more gas into the fire.

Regarding circular arguments, it was always about her (imaginary) weight. We spent hours talking about her imaginary weight. It was unbearable but I was sad about such a concern about it from her part. She used to say : "I'm fat". I would reply : "No, you're not !" Then she said : "Yes, I am. So why guys don't hit on me ?" I would reply : "I love you the way you are, why do you want other guys to hit on you ?" Then, a few days later, she would tell me that she was happy because a guy had hit on her. She had turned him down but it had happened. I would tell her "So you see, I had told you that you have nothing to be ashamed about, you're really beautiful !" Then, she would say : "Yes, but that's the only one in months"... and bla bla bla bla bla bla

She wanted me at all cost to tell her that she was fat, which I never told her (because she isn't) and it infuriated her.

And it was endless like this...

Please, how is it possible to validate such feelings without giving her the impression that she is fat...?

[united for now]

Have you really listened to her?

She told you... "I'm fat".

Think about what she is saying to you.

Those are her beliefs.
Those are her feelings.
She truly, 100% completely believes she is fat.

She isn't asking you to agree with her.
She's asking for you to recognize that she feels fat.
That she is feeling undesirable.


Now if you can connect with her feeling fat, then you can connect with her emotions. It has to be painful to feel fat. It has to really hurt to feel undesirable. It would be devastating to feel rejected by others. It would be hard to think about anything else besides how uncomfortable you feel in your own skin.

Can you understand how awful she feels?

[Rewards2]

We aren't - and shouldn't be - our partners emotional caretakers.

When they become abusive - our only responsibility is to walk away and take care of ourselves. Abuse should never be tolerated.

I am curious about this.
When do we validate and when do we leave? What are our reponsibilies?
Seems like abuse would be defined as personal and insulting attacks.
And validation comes when the SO is emotionally charged over an issue, bit not being personally abusive.
Is that correct?

[united for now]

Validate often.
Repeat your validation.
Listen for the emotions behind what the pwBPD is saying.
Validation shows concern and caring and will bring you closer.

There is a time and a place for validation, and it isn't while you are being raged upon or screamed at. Validation comes often and early in a dialogue. Once abuse begins to fly then it is time to step out of the argument and allow time to lower emotions.

[SeekerofTruth]

Very illuminating.  Really appreciate the initial/beginning/original post.

I would so get caught up in circular arguments (while feeling greater frustration, greater agitation, deeper perplexity, confusion, disbelief, patience, tolerance, and really really trying to understand... and really really try to clarify...) - while realizing i was in a circular argument and not being able to believe i was in a circular argument (well let's just get to the bottom of this... and who said what... and how who said it... yada yada) and I would loose so much time e-x-p-l-a-i-n-i-n-g.   Seemingly never winning (and i am a winner), and seemingly never getting in the last word... and seemingly never right... ugg

[Hunter56]

Validating is hard when you hurt!   After reading so many comments on the success of validation, I can hardly argue against the obvious merits of this strategy. 

Yes, I said strategy...not technique.  You see, for a long time now I honestly believed that my SO was sincere.   To find out now that she was only mirroring me like an octopus in order to establish/create a r/s has made me angry. BUT, I am very desirous of peace in my life, and forgiveness is important to me.  That said, I have (in the meanwhile) developed standard responses for those times when my pwbpd comes my way with a handful of stinkbait for me to nibble on.

Sometimes, I just disappear.  It works for me (or should I say, for my sake).  Avoidance?  Yeah.  I'll admit it.  But, I am up on my hypertension meds and similar physical ills.  I need out of the ring, before I get KO'd.  Now that I know about JADE, I can stay somewhat engaged without sounding insincere re:validation. 

As you know, pwbpd are excellent at detecting insincerity.  So, thanks for passing on this self-preservation attitude guide (JADE).  I will use this to get me through until God gives me the grace to let go of the anger and enable me to validate sincerely.

Also, thanks for all the other help (workshops and such) as my little corner of the world doesn't provide support groups for this issue.  I have gone to the MHMR people who said their hands are tied until the pwbpd hurts herself or another (they refuse to elaborate on what level of hurt would generate action on their part).

Plugging along in prayer,
H56

[onetiredmom]

Following this train of thought -
When do you quit?  When do you decide you can do no more and "save yourself"?  Our friends, our family, our BPD's professionals, our church, they tell us "save yourself".  Our entire family is captive of the "I'm fat" (at 98 lbs you have an eating disorder, actually), controlling, manipulating, tantrums, ER visits, therapist appts, modified school schedules.  There is no money left as I had to quit my job... the entire family is suffering.  We have had threats of CPS visits due to exaggerated stories before the newest batch of professionals figured the situation out.  Our BPD sees multiple specialists for imagined health issues, weeps sobs and rails about "why me" and when her self diagnoses are found not to be true, the doctors are stupid and missed something.  Thanksgiving she refused to attend and there were $20,000 in medical paybacks for a medical condition she convinced the ER she has - and doesn't.  It was 'gas'.  At what price our lives?  She is 18, knows better than everyone about everything, refuses all advice, all offers of help.  We have paid with our emotions, our financial future is forever altered, her siblings have been traumatized, household members are diagnosed PTSD - the trauma being the experience of living with her - jobs have been lost due to her refusal to quit calling, etc.  You know the story.  I know we are being compassionate, but I am not willing to sacrifice my life and my relationships any more.  I am tired of being publicly humiliated.  I know, it is an illness.  So is addiction and I would advise there is a time when you have to 'save yourself'.
Please respond - We feel terrible about being "those people"...

[grendel]

This is a very helpful topic, but as many have said a difficult one.
I too used to try to reason with my wife, but learned she wasn't in search of a solution or even comfort or validation - she was just raging to rage.

I have learned to step away, but at times it is hard - especially when my 6 year old daughter (previous marriage) is the topic. I simply won't accept any proposals of anything even remotely harmful for my daughter. Even in a argument. Even knowing it may be a product of my wife's temporary unbalanced state.
There I cannot walk away.
It's the one topic that really pushes me to physically walk away forever.

[Shaktipat]

My therapist told me that defensiveness accomplishes nothing,  so I no longer defend myself. I have been just ending the conversation,  and go into another room,  and ignore him when he wants to continue. I don't know if this is the right thing to do,  but I feel like the circular arguments are his way of creating drama and proving he is right. I've decided I don't need to be right. He can be right and happy with that. If he would rather be right instead of compromise and get along,  then be right and have at it. I have decided not to participate in conflict.  And if I don't participate,  then there is no conflict.

[Hunter56]

I live in a part of the world where therapists are non-existant.  The nearest one is over 50 miles away.  I have relied on BPDfamily advice heavily to guide my judgement.  My corner of Earth is somewhat devoid of attys specializing in Fam Law.  The "one" in town asked me to fill out a "qualification statement" to see if she would take my case.  Even if I wanted to just walk away, it's not going to happen.  So, I need to practice the peace principles offered on this site. 

I can't emphasize the value of JADE enough.  I also practice NC as much as possible considering that my BPDw and I still share a house.  I have slowly been able to detach myself from her issues and deal strictly with mine.  This is not to say that she has stopped trying to instigate disruption, (e.g. she doesn't get along w/her addict daughter but invited her to live w/her---or fight w/her as they 'get it on' daily), but I just lock up my things and go for a walk when she tries the old stuff.  Sometimes, I repeat the old saw, "There but for the grace of God go I."

I have not had an argument for weeks.  I am anxious to leave this r/s, but in the meantime these strategies/techniques are helping me.  I am not the punching bag and that's a good thing!  I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel yet, but I can feel the fresh air coming in from the other end.

Wishing everyone and myself great fortune on this quest,
H56

[Themis]

Ok there's all this information on what we DON'T do, but what about what we do?

So we are not doing any JADE things, what ARE we doing?

Oh and I kid you not, I have to walk away as he will be as silly to answer a "I didn't do that" statement with "you did"

and I think--are we little kids going did!-didn't!-did!

Ok so so far I have to just walk away or just stop talking. I'm not JADEing if I'm not doing that, but what exactly am I doing in an argument?

Confused.

[Ciorsdan]

This is a situation I often find myself in.  I used to try and defend myself..that was pointless.  I used to argue back..that only escalated the fights to atomic portions.  Now, I just sit there quietly..tell her I am sorry and I love her.  She gets mad that I have nothing else to say, but nothing I say ever helps. I realize this now.  I just need to keep my head down and pray for the storm to pass.

This is exactly the way conversations with my uBPDm go. Growing up with that and not having a way to get out of the house or leave the argument, just saying "Yes, ma'am" and "I'm sorry" was the best way to make the situation end. I tried to avoid interaction by staying in my room or reading, but my nonSF always made me stop because I wasn't being a part of the family.

When I became older, we went NC because I just couldn't deal with it anymore. After encouragement from my F, we had CC. Now,  my husband and I are staying with her and its worse than ever. There is a 'discussion' every week where she threatens to put is out or just lays into my husband and I for an offense we didn't realize we had committed. I find myself lapsing back onto the submisive state I grew up in.

[pari]

I get stuck in the exact same situation with my bf all the time. Often when we discuss something, he labels them as argument. I try to justify/explain to make him understand my point but that just makes situation worse. He blames me for going in circular arguments.

This post is great and so informative. It's such a relief that I am not the only one going crazy in this world. I am yet to try these tools with my bf. I worry about leaving the argument because he is the one who demands answers from me, validations and keeps bringing back the issues. He would have his own assumptions of my statements and label them as arguments. I am often too confusing for him. I try so hard to be strong but it's not easy to blamed for everything and have your brain function properly.  This forum has been very supportive.