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Author Topic: Good vs bad sexuality  (Read 1136 times)
Scupper
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« on: May 04, 2010, 02:31:38 AM »

I'm moving this from the undecided board because it departed a lot from the original thread. Seems to fit a lot better here and might be of interest to anyone struggling with sex issues.

The main bit below is by Hieronymous, in realation to a comment that my uBPDw doesn't seem to have experienced orgasm. He suggests this is quite common amongst BPD sufferors and his w's discovery of the climax transformed her from a girl into a woman.

Quote
Quote from: Scupper on Yesterday at 05:15:18 AM
"I have to ask, - and feel free to not respond if this is getting too personal, but... erm... how did she learn to climax?"


Perhaps worth a separate thread.  Anyhow, it's not too personal.  +18 language coming up...

We took our time and observed every single aspect of our love making, over several months.  I'm good at this (the observation and analysis).  From the start it was clear that there was "bad" and "good" sex.  The bad sex was: her being aggressive, forcing herself on me, alcohol use, and so on.  Standard BPD sex, I guess.  I simply didn't respond, except to ask her to relax, talk to her, talk more, cuddle, etc.

We learned to observe and talk, and stop if it wasn't pleasant for both of us.  We learned to not try to make love if she'd drunk (and later me) any alcohol.  We learned to keep some lights on, low, because it was so vital for me to see her face.  We learned that she had to keep some clothes on, to not feel exposed (which made her aggressive).  We learned to avoid porn, sad music.  We learned to take our time to get into real harmony, mentally.  That took days of being close, sometimes.  And talking, always talking, before, during, after.  We analysed obsessively until we felt we'd understood and could move on.  Literally every aspect.

And then she relaxed more and more, trusted me, and started to really feel her own body.  That was utterly new for her.  We moved from obvious approaches (clitoral stimulation) to more and more subtle ones until she could climax from penetration.  We got so good that she could climax several times in an evening.  We worked through every nervous pathway, every type of sensation.  It got banal to her.

We'd break the rules now and then, and it'd always go "wrong".  Especially alcohol, which was so tempting because she was so often nervous and stressed.  Just one beer!

The amazing thing to me was that this changed her.  She literally developed from child to woman, over a few months of this.  I saw her body change, become more feminine.  I watched her mind also change, become more adult.  She used to be a child to other women, she ended up a mother.  She used to dress like a boy, she ended up dressing beautifully and looking after her hair and body.

The changes in her do seem permanent but it's not the whole story: she still needs medication and therapy.  However there was a perfect correlation between the quality of our love making and the quality of her lifestyle... and I mean in the large picture: her work, and relationships with family, etc. all went from catastrophic to normal during this period and seem to have remained normal.

Hope this helps, and I'm happy to answer more questions but perhaps we should start a separate thread on "good vs. bad sexuality" in the Staying section.
 
 
 

Thanks, Hieronymous, - quite an inspiring story in my opinion. Thoughts anyone?


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heironymous
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2010, 03:42:55 AM »

There was another thread about "porn star sex" being one of the reasons for nons to stay with their BPD partner.  JoannaK put it succinctly, "Sex is often a tool to control a partner/s, not an expression of mutual love and caring."

http://BPDfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=114970.0;all

It struck me that the person asking for sex is always the weaker party, so offering intensely good sex but arbitrarily and unpredictability withholding it is a kind of assault.  It reminds me of the cult brainwashing techniques, "love bombing" combined with arbitrary punishment and incomprehensible rules.

It would be very interesting to hear from folks here about certain aspects of their sex lives with BPD partners.  Specifically, who initiated sex, who received the most pleasure, and whether the sex was an expression of mutual love and caring, or a physical satisfaction (and for whom, then).

For our couple it was her, not me, who asked for attention, and it happened within an agreed set of rules.  I gave her sex, but on a predictable basis.

Some indicative differences between the "bad" sex and the "good" sex were:

* She'd remain relaxed and open after sex, if it was good.  If bad, she'd close up, be unhappy, get angry, sometimes flip.
* She'd sleep really well, and open, again very relaxed.  If bad, she'd sleep tight on one side of the bed.
* She'd climax (as I said), more and more easily.  If bad, that simply would not happen.
* She'd look happy, face open and relaxed.  If bad, she'd be tense and closed.
* She'd be gentle with me.  If bad, she'd scratch and bite.
* She'd go slowly.  If bad, she pushed and forced the rhythm.

It was never easy, she'd have flashbacks and unexpected emotions.  Sex was something horrible for her, initially, two rapes and childhood abuse.  But over time she learned how to love her own body.
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Emeritus
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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2010, 11:26:02 AM »

Sadly - sexual abuse is much more common than most people are aware of  cry

The statistics are shocking

    * 1 in 4 girls is sexually abused before the age of 18.
    * 1 in 6 boys is sexually abused before the age of 18.
    * 1 in 5 children are solicited sexually while on the internet.
    * Nearly 70% of all reported sexual assaults (including assaults on adults) occur to children ages 17 and under.
    * An estimated 39 million survivors of childhood sexual abuse exist in America today.

As the survivor of childhood sexual abuse myself - I know how it messes with your understanding of what "sex" is all about. I too, could have been heironymous's gf in my early years (without the aggression and hurting aspects). Sex was to keep the other person happy so they would love you. It wasn't about sharing - it was about controlling the environment so that you could get what you wanted - and it wasn't an orgasm - it was to be loved.

I was lucky enough to find a man who was able to slow me down and teach me differently. It was a true breakthrough, and now my sexual identity is pretty solid and healthy.

My best friend was also sexually abused as a child, then gang raped when she got drunk at 15 years old, with guys she thought were trust worthy. To this day, she can't have an orgasm, and she is the 44 year old mother of 2 cry

Does this mean that all BPD sufferers have been sexually abused? No - but many have been.
Does this mean that all BPD sufferers have unhealthy sexual patterns? No - but it "is" an issue for some members.

What defines "bad sex" vs "good sex"?
It is shared and reciprical?
Is "yes or no" used to control you?
Do you feel as though you have a healthy intimate bond that goes beyond just sex?


If you fear that your sexual relationship is unhealthy - How can you deal with this?
With lots of sensitivity and patience.
Possibly hook up with a trained T who can offer some suggestions.
Will it work? Maybe - maybe not.

I do know that nothing will change without changes...

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Change your perceptions and you change your life.  Nothing changes without changes


BPDUSoCrazy
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« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2010, 11:35:55 AM »

when i met my BPDw, she was 20 and had only slept with one guy, she had i think 3 boyfriends that she "fooled around" with. she told me though that she never got an "O" with any of them. It just never happened. Our first encounter, "it" happened. A week later, she called her ex fiance' and in a fight stated, "oh and btw, you never got me off, but he (me) did the very first time" huge ego boost for me of course. she never had any problem obtaining an orgasm with me, typically multiple times in a "session". but looking back, i wonder if she REALLY ever did. I'm pretty sure she did, i remember her even telling her mom she was that excited, but who knows.

but overall, our sex life was awesome...but in spurts. it was crazy, some weeks would be 5 times in one week, one time 8 times in one day, then suddenly 2 weeks could go by with nothing, then kaboom, all over again. i totally see now how it is a tool to keep us hooked, it's that intermittent reinforcement, to where we stick around or hold out because we never know when the next stretch could happen.
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pfunk
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« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2010, 04:58:07 PM »

[quote author=united for now link

As the survivor of childhood sexual abuse myself - I know how it messes with your understanding of what "sex" is all about. I too, could have been heironymous's gf in my early years (without the aggression and hurting aspects). Sex was to keep the other person happy so they would love you. It wasn't about sharing - it was about controlling the environment so that you could get what you wanted - and it wasn't an orgasm - it was to be loved.

man this is a really interesting topic. my wife was sexually abused as a child, she's been raped and has been ganged raped as a teen, so much of what united is saying here about sex and BPDs i can relate to with my wife.

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iluminati
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« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2010, 08:15:05 PM »

It's interesting you mention sexuality, because that's one of my wife's big things.  Yes, she was sexually abused as a child, but (at the risk of sounding callous) the invalidating environment she grew up in mode her more of a mark for sexual abusers more than the abuse caused issues.  Simply put, she could have never been sexually abused and probably would have ended up with BPD anyway.

In terms of sex, it seems like the more detached she could be during sex, the more she enjoyed it.  In fact, one of the things she had to get used to when we first were a couple was getting used to the idea that she was going to have sex with someone she knew and was close to.  She was huge into BDSM for the intensity of feelings it generated, overwhelming her feelings.  Also, she liked to have sex angry and have me pound her hard so she could feel something.  Failing that, she preferred for me to wake her up so I could take advantage of her.  And I do fully relate with the drunk sex phenomenon.  Up until recently, most of the good sex we've had as a couple required her to be three sheets to the wind.

Interestingly enough, that was one of the first boundaries I put up.  I flat refused to have sex with her when she just wanted to avoid dealing with her feelings.  The first few times were rough (especially since my hormones work VERY well, thanks), but I knew I had to hold out for the greater good.  Eventually, she managed to break down and finally be vulnerable with her sexuality.  While my wife wasn't completely anorgasmic before, the whole experience has forced her to open up more about her sexuality and relax with me.  Combined with a few new tricks she's trying to get into the groove, and now sex isn't something that's a trigger behavior these days.  It's been only about a couple of months, but so far, so good. 

I understand the porn star sex phenomenon very well.  After all, I did meet her at a swing party, and there she was very, ahem, skilled.  However, it's only been late that the passion she's had for it has caught up in her skills, since in the past, she used sex as a way to avoid dealing with emotions.  Now, she's finally feeling them, and I'm so glad.  Besides, feeling into it makes for better sex...at least for me.
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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2010, 02:37:37 AM »

Ah yes, good old porn star sex.  Unfortunately too much of our relationship revolved around sex - something we are both aware of. She needed it to feel validated and was interested in just about anything sexually.  She also cheated on me as well, even though she tried very hard to deny it. Sometimes we swung from sex to no sex.  She had a really hard time just having sex and having fun. It either had to be deeply meaningfull, or "all I wanted her for was sex".  I told her several times I would give that all up (well most of it) for a sane relationship.  Of course that lead to her saying that I wanted to take sex away from her and accused me of trying to control.  Really a no win situation there.
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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2010, 06:18:00 AM »

Ah yes, good old porn star sex.  Unfortunately too much of our relationship revolved around sex - something we are both aware of. She needed it to feel validated and was interested in just about anything sexually.  She also cheated on me as well, even though she tried very hard to deny it. Sometimes we swung from sex to no sex.  She had a really hard time just having sex and having fun. It either had to be deeply meaningful, or "all I wanted her for was sex".  I told her several times I would give that all up (well most of it) for a sane relationship.  Of course that lead to her saying that I wanted to take sex away from her and accused me of trying to control.  Really a no win situation there.

Thankfully, my wife has never cheated on me (three cheers for social anxiety disorder...woo!), but I understand where you're coming from.  With my wife, the swing was either some dramatic spectacle or just "lying back and thinking of England", neither of which got my motor running.  Also, there were periods where she didn't even want to think of sex, but the whole wifely duty thing had her giving it up, lest I masturbate and therefore not need her.  Whenever I tried to calm things down and have saner sex, it became about those women in my past I'd been with, and how much I obviously wanted to be with them instead of her.  (Though in my weaker periods, I would think about how much saner sex was with them, and how come I just couldn't have that for myself.  Thankfully, I never acted on those thoughts.  grin)  It's strange how much sex isn't about, ya know, sex with someone with BPD.
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He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.  Matthew 5:45b
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