Mommy wants me to model violent behavior for 5yo daughter to make her "tougher"

[Think About It...]

Think About It... There are many things that parents argue about that aren't so important. Some of this is related to different parenting philosophies and some of it is related to the difficulty of sharing your child. Accept that there is more than one "right way" to parent. Learn to be less rigid and more accepting of your child's other parent. Rather than trying to change how the other parent does his job of parenting, do your best job of parenting during the time your child is with you, without criticizing the other parent. ~ Philip M. Stahl, Ph.D.

[qcarolr]

I posted this on the 'parents supporting kids with bpd' board, but wanted to get feedback from others dealing with partners wbpd and raising young children. I have custody of my 5 year old granddaughter with my dh. GD has lived in my home from birth, we took over most of her care at 9 months and custody at 18 mos. The momma, my bpdDD, is 24 and has lived with us off and on over this time. She was married with an infant son and lived in apt nearby for 15 months. My GS was put in foster care at 5 mos and adopted by foster family at age 2, last Oct 2009. DD had a fight with her hubby and ended up with a dui, and the hubby deported back to Mexico Feb 2009 and is now divorced. She lived with us from Feb 2009 until she was arrested in fight with new BF Nov 2009. We have not let her return to our home since she got out of jail Dec 2009. Dd has asked to be in a co-parent situation with her little girl and I am trying to support this as a long-term goal because it seems good overall for gd who misses her momma and it seems to give DD a reason to get up each day - she has been homeless on the streets since last Dec. Life sure has been an adventure.

 Any feedback you all have is very much appreciated. Thanks, qcr

 Re: Passing sadness toward acceptance on doing the best I could as a mom
« Reply #9 on: Today at 11:39:50 PM » Quote Modify  

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Quote from: lbjnltx on Today at 08:32:20 AM
dear qcarol,
i hope that all goes well today and that something the t says or does will pierce the fog and reach your dd's spirit.
i have been reading an awesome book about validation.  it also touches on boundaries.  it is very explicit and direct w/real life examples of how powerful validation is.  i would like to recommend it for you and your entire family.  it is filled with priceless jewels and could have a huge impact on your life.  it is available used at amazon.com for next to nothing.
I Don't Have To Make Everything All Better by Gary and Joy Lundberg
i am only 1/2 way through this book and it has been more helpful to me than most of the books i've read combined.


lbjnltx - wow, just in time. Thanks for the book reference. I will order one tonight. I was going to post here asking for help in how to validate something my DD said after a very successful T visit with her and gd today. Maybe this book will help me communicate with DD more effectively when I cannot agree with a basic belief she is trying to convince me I need to model for her daughter.

The belief is that a person cannot be kind or nice and get by in the 'real world'. Her answer to most situations is aggression. And that dh and I are too nice and will raise gd to be subject to lots of bullying by teaching her to try to use compromise, negotiation, boundaries (ie. walking away from a situation) when she needs to stand up to someone else and fight - very literally fight. DD has done lots of this in her very domestic violence filled relationships with anyone that crosses her since at least age 15. I believe the DV classes the court has required of her for her DUI last year have been a waste of everyone's time and money - luckily not my money anymore! YIIIIIII!!    

The situation that triggered these comments from DD after the T session today was play before the session in the waiting room. We got there really early - like 30 minutes. There was another little girl who was left unattended while her dad(or guardian??) was meeting with their T. She invited gd to play with the giant legos and gd was being shy. So I decided to engage in play - and gd, dd and I all ended up at the little table having lego plates, with little plastic game pieces for 'shrimp', and wagon of foam blocks became vegetable soup, and smaller white legos were white strawberries dipped in chocolate. It was great fun and passed the time quickly. This little 6 year old and gd really got in the spirit of the game, and i was really pleased that DD joined us eating our pretend lunch. Then the 6yo wanted to play lunch again and I said no lets do this "i spy" game book (gd really likes this game on our computer at home). The 6yo was kind of insistent and tried to take the book away - I set it on my lap to look at with gd. DD moved back to the adult size chairs after harshly telling the 6yo we did not want to play anymore. About then our T arrived and gd chose only her momma to go back to the office to play with her. I told the 6yo I was taking a break now to read a magazine, found one and moved to an adult size chair across the waiting room. Another middle-school age girl picked up the "i spy" book to look at. The 6yo continued to try to engage me in playing, but I reminded her I was reading now. so she entertained herself reasonably well for another 15-20 minutes before it was her T time. I had no idea anything had gone on other than appropriate responses by me in the whole situation.

DD went to the restroom when they returned and the T said gd had done really well - for the first time by the end of the session seeming  truly relaxed in T's office. We have been seeing this T since last Dec so this is a major breakthrough, and has only happened since DD has joined her with the T, and I am excluded. Then as we got into the car DD turned on me in a harsh voice about how she heard the 6yo call me a crazy lady and how could I just let that comment go without defending myself. Then I 'let' this litlle girl push me around too much instead of telling her we were done playing and to let me alone to play with gd.

I have no memory of hearing this comment - which doesn't mean it wasn't said just I didn't hear it. I tried, in vain, to explain that I let the 6yo have the natural consequence of my not playing with her, and reading a magazine. DD would just not let it drop. So I asked her how she would have handled this. She said she would have got in a fight with the 6yo to show her who was boss (not those exact words, but that was the gist - DD did use the words 'get into a fight'). I was just stunned, to say the least. DD continued, with gd in the back seat as we drove to drop Dd off at the park where she 'lives' explaining to me what a bad role model dh and I for her daughter. That she will grow up a wimp like us and get bullied in school. That we have no idea of what the real world is like. This digressed into how awful it was that we had turned her out homeless in the streets, and we had no idea how bad it was. And look it is starting to rain so I will get wet and have to sleep in the wet tonight. Now gd chimes in "momma you won't be wet, you stay in a motel". She says not anymore, but did not explain. [her bf paid for a motel for 2 weeks, but it cost too much and was too far away from his work. and today he got laid off his temp job - he prefers to be living in the park with his friends] We often park behind a motel to pick up DD, and gd has assumed that her momma lived in this motel now that she was back in the city. Gd had visited one time at the motel when they were staying  in the next town a couple weeks ago. I chose to just remain quiet after that and let DD ramble on, hoping there was not too much damage repair needed later with gd. Gd was telling her momma to stop yelling at grammi. DD told me to stop arguing with her - I replied that I was just trying to stay quiet and drive. DD was quiet after that. Luckily it was only a 15 minute drive, and DD did choose to get out of the car. Often she refuses to get out of my car when she is angry - this reminds me that DD was saying what would I do if I tried to walk away from the 6yo and she just kept following me and would not leave me alone. This led to her comment that her answer would be to confront her and get into a fight.

Gd got out to hug her goodbye and sat on the curb (behind the  motel again) to finish her milk from earlier. Then she saw her momma sitting on a rock after her friends left and she wanted to say goodbye again. So we did that, then I took her back to the car and we drove away. As I turned the corner I saw her BF had found her and was talking with her.

I will text DD tomorrow, as I promised to remind her to call her DUI lawyer. She may be OK - she may still be feeling angry. Texting works really well to stay disengaged when things are unpredictable.

I came home and vented on dh briefly while gd was outside playing. Now i have apologized to him for that and am processing all this. I feel like I did a really good job with the whole day. I did model appropriate stuff in the waiting room for both gd and DD and the other child. I kept my mouth shut and did not engage DD at all in the car - and i DID NOT CRY.  

Now I am at the place where I am wondering if there was a way to validate any of DD's feelings in this situation while still maintaining a belief that compassion and kindness do work in most situations, even with her homeless friends (at least the ones I have met seem to really appreciate all that I HAVE done for DD). And I acknowldege that my 'real world' is different by choice than the one she lives in. And she lived in a more violent world while she was living in our home, while she was living in various apts with BF's or her husband and infant son. Her current BF is the first to know how to set boundaries with her and take care of himself from what I have seen. I have never seen any anger with him, or heard any stories of such from DD about him. yet he is not seen as a 'wimp' by DD???.

The other question is - am I wasting my time with trying to make it work for her with gd, or rather for GD with her momma? There is such a strong connection from Gd's side of things, as evidenced by her openess in therapy when DD is there and her silence when only I am there. i know gd has a lot of anger at me  for her momma not living in our home. she loved it when the husband was deported and DD moved back in with us last year. Even if she was mostly not available for gd, she liked to go down to her room and give her a hug each day before we got on with our own life. And gd is very jealous of bf, and has been like this with all DD's partners since her daddy left when she was 18 mos old (well we kicked him out on his drunk a** by the highway to hitchhike away).

I am trying to figure out what the reality is that I need to be accepting here? I really appreciate any feedback you all have for me. Thanks again for listening.

qcr

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GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[DreamGirl]

I wish there were simple answers in all of this.

Your granddaughter loves her momma. You love her momma. A five year old's life is simple. She wants to swim in the love of all the people around her. She wants to be happy and she doesn't understand that you not allowing her momma to live in your house is what is preserving her safety and everyone else's mental health. You are so very right in that your daughter has made her choices and is right where she is because of her, not anyone else.

I think that you are doing a pretty great job in limiting what your granddaughter is exposed to and I think GD5 gets to learn what mom is all about thru her own experiences.  

From an outsider's point of view, I don't know that your daughter truly believes that her daughter needs to be "tougher".  It was a reaction in the moment based on her own feelings of injustice. Is this the first time she's brought this up?

~DG

[qcarolr]

DreamGirl,

This is not the first time this has come up. Last summer Dd was home alone with gd 4-6 hours one day a week while I worked. DD had requested this time, and we paid her instead of the daycare home that day. One time DD looked distressed and i was concerned about leaving, but she called a friend and so I droped her and gd off at friend's house. She had 4 kids, and I wasn't 100% comfortable with this person but  better than DD home alone that day.

Later that evening DD approached me, I don't remember if gd was in the room or not, that she believed we were being to "easy" on gd, that all she did was cling to her the whole day and not play with the other kids. Now I saw gd playing away with these kids when I picked them up at the new city fountain - in a borrowed swimsuit. I gave them all a ride back to their house. Over a period of days a bigger story came to the surface about gd playing unsupervised (she was 4 at the time) with the kids in a bedroom and came out crying. The 2 year old was bullying gd and had hit her. DD was aware of the bullying but wanted gd to stand up for herself - ie. fight back - so Dd did not interevene in any way. Dd blamed us (dh and i) for teaching gd to be weak and nice and DD said the world is a harsh place and gd will not be able to take it if we do not teach her to be tougher.

There was also an incident when gd was 3 when DD and her hubby took gd to a birthday party. The playground was in the center area of the low income apts. where the friend lived. DD called me to come get her as gd was being bullied by some of the older kids there and hubby was too busy drinking beer to do anything about it. Dd was very disappointed that gd could not stand up and fight back, and that she had to leave the party early to bring her home. I think we may have picked up gd and DD stayed - or she was too mad at hubby but went back later.

DD has also made comments over time blaming us for not preparing her well enough to handle the 'real world' as a child.  I think DD suffered a lot of bullying, esp. in middle school being in the special ed. classes. I tried the best i knew how to advocate for her needs at the school, but think the  accomadations and intereventions made her feel different. Most of these incidents were never brought to my attention. When DD did share something with me and I contacted the school about it, she was even more angry at me because " the teacher pulled me out of class to talk about it, and YOU made it a lot worse". but she had asked me to call. YIIIIIII.

I have felt trapped in a lose--lose life with DD for a very long time. I can only heal myself and be here for gd with DD out of my house, and limiting my contact with her to very short visits. My dilema is how to support gd's need to have her mommy in her life and protect her from DD's toxic beliefs, surely based on her own life experiences but still toxic. Gd does not have an easy path ahead of her - but thankfully she does respond so far to the love and logic kinds of parenting tools. A very normal kid.

Thanks for listening - it helps so much to be able to share all this in a supportive, non-judgemental place.
qcr

[DreamGirl]

     

Sounds like you are to blame for everything.  

I was hoping that this was a fleeting moment for your daughter, that this was an isolated incident. I guess that she has firm beliefs in this area. As you explain further and suggested.. I see it perhaps as being an irrational fear that she's having for her own daughter based on her own projections from a childhood of being bullied.

I don't think that the only solution in the face of conflict/stress/opposition/bullying is to "fight".  Basic human instinct is to fight, flight, or freeze. Not right or wrong responses, just all different.

The pwBPD in my life seems to be a "fighter" too by the way.  

We can stand up for ourselves in numerous ways and life isn't always about the "fight" to survive.  It's about the strength and will to survive for me.

I know that feeling of lose-lose.  I also think you really are doing just a fantastic job of helping your granddaughter come to grips with all of this as she continues to grow up.

Do you think that you're too easy on your GD?  

I've actually accused my mom of the same thing.  She is Grandma after all.  

Is there a way to just agree to disagree with your DD on this one? Saying to her that gosh, you understand why she feels that way and in many ways it makes sense, but at this point you're just being Grandma and Grandpa?  You two just parent differently.  She can continue to parent her in her own way when she's in her care and you'll do the same?

~DreamGirl    

[Jemima]

hi qcarolr,

I read your post on the other board too, and have been mulling this over. Maybe I'm just not digesting everything properly, but are you asking if you should change your parenting style, or are you asking if you should continue to have as a goal for your daughter to be able to co-parent considering her entrenched beliefs about teaching your granddaughter to be aggressive?

IMO, in the examples you gave, there is just no justifying your daughter's approach. In one scenario, she advocated aggression toward a six-year-old --- not advocating aggression even by your granddaughter, but advocated that you personally should have been more aggressive! I guess I could have seen her point of view in the therapist's office if the other child had been aggressive toward your granddaughter and your daughter encouraged her to fight back. I guess. But thinking a grown-up should be harsh/aggressive with a child that obviously has problems or 1) she wouldn't be in a therapist's office and 2) she would not have had the nerve to get aggressive with a strange adult ... that is stinkin' thinkin'. You didn't let the other child run over you, you played when you wanted to play and you said "enough" and made it stick.

The other example --- that was just supervisory neglect. And it shows that your granddaughter was clingy to her mom (we know that is likely because she is insecure about her mom being there for her) and that your daughter had no patience with that and turned it around to be your fault!

SOme of her feelings and beliefs about the world being a harsh place may come from her time on the streets. However, from the sketch you have drawn, it appears that these beliefs are rooted in much earlier experiences too.

It seems like your daughter is unable to perceive the more subtle ways that most civilized people have in dealing with other people's aggression. Your daughter might be able to survive in primitive situations like on the streets or in a war zone, but has no appreciation for the finer points of social interaction. Personally, although I think your desire for your daughter to co-parent is honorable and positive, I would watch this aspect of her belief system carefully and not give her a chance to throw granddaughter to the wolves again.

Being overprotected OR underprotected produces weakness. Overprotection does not expose us to enough stress and we don't develop the skills and strength necessary to deal with it. But underprotection overwhelms the unprepared person and wounds and damages. Either way, a strong and resilient person does not develop.

I have had the dilemmas with my 16 yo daughter too, about whether to intervene at school or not. WHen she was little, I inquired about EVERY situation (on the bus, in school, on the playground) and tried to help as much as possible. Now she tells me practically nothing. She is eligible for special accommodations in the classroom (but not actual special education), but feels humiliated if she has to use them (like printed out notes from the teacher or preferential seating). So I have said she doesn't have to have the special accommodations as long as her grades are OK. It is my compromise regarding the question, which is more important, that she gets the special help that she qualifies for (she has an auditory processing disorder), or that we avoid humiliating her (even though I think her reaction to the special accommdations is all out of proportion to the situation)? It's hard for us moms to decide.

[qcarolr]

Jemima, I am going to reply to you inside your quote. I really appreciate all the questions you have asked. I had left a message yesterday evening for the T and she called back with some really good supportive ideas today. Can't remember it all off the top of my head, but it usually comes back when i need it. My response is in italics. qcr (am am getting lots of interruptions so am posting and modiyfying so i don't lose this)

hi qcarolr,

I read your post on the other board too, and have been mulling this over. Maybe I'm just not digesting everything properly, but are you asking if you should change your parenting style, or are you asking if you should continue to have as a goal for your daughter to be able to co-parent considering her entrenched beliefs about teaching your granddaughter to be aggressive?

I am really thinking about the reality of whether i can support DD's desires to co-parent. Yesterday's experience really brought the entrenched nature of her aggressiveness into clear focus for me. And that only she can change this with a lot of work. The likelyhood of this happening is remote right now. I have just fine parenting style/skills and the support of a really good child T willing to work with us as a family as needed.

IMO, in the examples you gave, there is just no justifying your daughter's approach. In one scenario, she advocated aggression toward a six-year-old --- not advocating aggression even by your granddaughter, but advocated that you personally should have been more aggressive! I guess I could have seen her point of view in the therapist's office if the other child had been aggressive toward your granddaughter and your daughter encouraged her to fight back. I guess. But thinking a grown-up should be harsh/aggressive with a child that obviously has problems or 1) she wouldn't be in a therapist's office and 2) she would not have had the nerve to get aggressive with a strange adult ... that is stinkin' thinkin'. You didn't let the other child run over you, you played when you wanted to play and you said "enough" and made it stick.

The other example --- that was just supervisory neglect. And it shows that your granddaughter was clingy to her mom (we know that is likely because she is insecure about her mom being there for her) and that your daughter had no patience with that and turned it around to be your fault!

SOme of her feelings and beliefs about the world being a harsh place may come from her time on the streets. However, from the sketch you have drawn, it appears that these beliefs are rooted in much earlier experiences too.

It seems like your daughter is unable to perceive the more subtle ways that most civilized people have in dealing with other people's aggression. Your daughter might be able to survive in primitive situations like on the streets or in a war zone, but has no appreciation for the finer points of social interaction.

DD has a severe cognitive disorder that I never really understood, nor anyone else, or I was unable to process what the reports and professoinals had to say. I said a lot about this on the thread on the 'support parents' board. The key parts of this are auditory processing and visual-spatial processing plus an overall extremely slow processing in general. Her IQ testing is between verbal and nonverbal is a 23 point difference, and this has gotten worse over time for unknown reasons. The important piece of this is that she truly doesn't get the subtle ways of civilized people, and is puzzled as to why things don't work out how she imagines that should. One ideas presented by this PhD that did the neuropsych testing was that the rejection and perception problems we could not solve has been a big factor in her developing the bpd dx as a young adult. She was treated for bipolar starting at age 6, with no success and lots of head scratching by everyone. When i took her for the neuorolgists work up at age 11, after her last in depth testing, the doctor could get past her having migraine headaches and a stressful life. He never did more than a cursory exam. Same with OT testing as part of her IEP reviews - never in depth enough, and not enough cooperation from DD, to get useful results.

 Personally, although I think your desire for your daughter to co-parent is honorable and positive, I would watch this aspect of her belief system carefully and not give her a chance to throw granddaughter to the wolves again.

This is exactly what the T said today. She emphasized that DD cannot have unsupervised time with gd, and I need to be prepared to assertively do damage control when things go awry during a visit. She gave me some useful wording - talk about her momma having problems handling her mad feelings, that momma is working on it, and that "   " fill in the inappropriate behavior is not an OK way to behave in that situation. "mad feelings" i something gd can understand and relate to. I think it is worth the effort as gd is very much loves her mom, and has responded well in the therapy situation when her momma is there. Not an easy path - I look for all the support and ideas I can get along the way.

Being overprotected OR underprotected produces weakness. Overprotection does not expose us to enough stress and we don't develop the skills and strength necessary to deal with it. But underprotection overwhelms the unprepared person and wounds and damages. Either way, a strong and resilient person does not develop.

I have had the dilemmas with my 16 yo daughter too, about whether to intervene at school or not. WHen she was little, I inquired about EVERY situation (on the bus, in school, on the playground) and tried to help as much as possible. Now she tells me practically nothing. She is eligible for special accommodations in the classroom (but not actual special education), but feels humiliated if she has to use them (like printed out notes from the teacher or preferential seating). So I have said she doesn't have to have the special accommodations as long as her grades are OK. It is my compromise regarding the question, which is more important, that she gets the special help that she qualifies for (she has an auditory processing disorder), or that we avoid humiliating her (even though I think her reaction to the special accommdations is all out of proportion to the situation)? It's hard for us moms to decide.

I think you have made a really great choice in how you are handling this. Grades is a very concrete gauge to use for when your D needs to learn to advocate for herself and ask privately for help from the teacher - outside of class. If she needs these notes, maybe they can even be mailed home for her to use. I never realized how vital the appearance to peers was for D - I had always just barreled thru doing it my own way not worrying too much about others opinions. Now dh - he is on the one worried about what the neighbors can see/hear/etc when things are beyond control in our house. But now we have all the nearby neighbors on board with supporting us with Gd - ie. when she was walking away from home. it was great how they help aim her back - walk her back - remind her she has to listen to grammi and grampi, etc. We have 3 new neighbors across the street this past month - and they all have school age or younger kids.

Being open with everyone about some of the issues - not keeping family secrets - is so important to our family health.

Thanks for putting up with these long posts. And thanks for all the help with ideas and stories of your own.
qcr

[Jemima]

THank you, too, for your feedback ... I promise if I ever get that magic wand that I wish for, you will be one of the first people I wave it over   

But until we get that magic wand, we can keep supporting each other ...