SELF-AWARE: Has the anger gone too far?

[suzn]

  I look at venting very differently now. I use to think it was healthy. It definately got me attention immediately. I mean hey, if YOU got me this angry YOU had better pay attention. Now I know I'm the one responsible for letting myself get that angry.

  Now I am willing to try to stop well ahead of allowing myself to lose control. As Clearmind says it did nothing but raise my blood pressure, it does nothing to resolve a problem. It's physically unhealthy for sure. It stopped all meaningful communication when I vented on someone. I certainly can't think straight and things were usually said that could have been handled so much better had I just stopped to notice the signs of letting myself get out of control.

  I feel alot of getting that angry and venting had to do with my perspective of a situation. I really have no way of knowing what is expected of me without allowing someone to communicate and then me asking questions if I don't understand, and without a predetermined idea that I being mistreated/used. So I try hard to listen without expectation. I'm not always 100% successful but it takes practice. Learning about my perspective and controlling my emotions has been challenging at times but definately an accomplishment when I succeed.   
       

[CaptainM]

I think my definition of "venting" differs to others here...

"Venting" as in reliving (either verbally or mentally) the experiences that made you frustrated or angry in an attempt to "work them out" or let others know why you feel the way you feel is, on the whole, a negative experience.

However, "venting" as a process of using activities to let off steam, acknowledging the fact that you feel frustrated, but not ruminating on the reasons as to why you're frustrated, more just getting out there, having a run and feeling better because of it is, on the whole, a positive experience for me.

Reliving bad experiences (for whatever purpose) has never had a positive effect for me - I used to replay angry thoughts over and over in my head after an argument and all it did was amplify them and make me feel worse. Why did I do it? Because I was confused, and I was trying to convince myself in my head that I was "right" and that I wasn't a bad person. So I'd replay entire arguments or situations with the intent of proving to myself that I wasn't horrible. Of course, reliving angry scenarios in your head isn't going to make you any less angry - that's as nonsensical as eating more food expecting it to make you more hungry. Anger + anger doesn't equal calm, it equals double anger!

But this still came as a revelation to me from my T - she taught me to combat negative thoughts with positive ones in the same way you combat flames with water (not more flames) and, whilst it was challenging and took a lot of my attention at first, it worked a treat. When my mind would take me to a negative place, I would turn that situation (mentally) into a positive one. As absurd as it sounds, it absolutely worked.

So, in short, you can't diffuse anger with anger just like you don't fight fire with fire. But I am still a proponent of recognising when you're frustrated and taking steps towards channelling that frustration in healthy channels (like vigorous exercise).

I think this quote says it best: “Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die.” (same goes for anger, bitterness, frustration).

[united for now]

If the venting doesn't lead to a solution, a lesson learned, or an idea for next time -isn't it time to wonder "what's the point?"


Life has it's painful moments.
It's how we choose to deal with those moments that makes a difference.

[argyle]

Dunno.  I see venting as a bit like pooping...not something to spend time on...but sometimes required. Some people deal with their emotions that way.  Others process things better by talking out loud. I know I've worked with engineers who problem-solved by talking at a nearby blob.  (Not that I'm stupid...just that I could have been dead...and the conversation would have gone the same way.)

That said...repetitive venting without a certain amount of reflection is probably a bad idea.

--Argyle

[ennie]

Dunno.  I see venting as a bit like pooping...not something to spend time on...but sometimes required.

--Argyle

I like it.  Though this really depends on how much spicy food you eat.  I myself have a little basket full of interesting literature to read during particularly spicy sessions. 

But as for venting, I process things verbally, so it is sort of impossible for me to cut out this behavior entirely...it is more a matter of how much, and with what content.  I do find that the less of my mind I focus on the destructive stuff BPD ex brings into my life, the better. 

[plaff]

Venting by giving voice to my anger has never been healthy. When I feel angry, it's because there's a problem that I want resolved, but if I'm angry, I can't approach that problem with clear judgement.

With the ubpd spouse, I often have to just give up on the problem altogether because even if it gets addressed, the spouse makes my life miserable until things go back to the way they were. To deal with that without anger, I just tell myself that I'm going through this terrible experience for a reason, and I might never even find out that reason, but I have to accept that.

[GreenMango]

* Does allowing our partners to vent on us increase their aggression?

* Does venting here increase our resentment and the helpless feeling of being stuck?

I would be interested in knowing about an aggression study that included a longer time frame between the actual feelings/expression of anger, any intermediary buffers, and the actual response/reaction (or venting on the target).

It seems like this forum is a healthy place for expression of the feelings or confusion we are having and if given the right kind of feedback can help to deescalate the anger.  I believe that once the overwhelming anger subsides and we can see reason again...that is the situation in reality, helps to reveal what emotions the anger was masking.  Sometimes we need a nudge, or a place, to dig deep for it.

But, yes anger can be promoted in the wrong context.  Anger isn't a responsive healing emotion...it seems like a fight or flight reaction to what many of us here felt like a very dangerous environment.  The immediate anger can be a catalyst to move and save yourself, where a person takes it, with whom they share it, and how they handle it can be both good and bad.

I think you have to be careful with anger.

-GM

[argyle]

Dunno.  All emotions exist for a reason.  Love, anger, hate... I think caution is important - but I believe it is important to respect the full range of emotional expression and the ways humans typically handle their emotions.

People feel anger.  And they complain sometimes.  I'd argue that that is fine, normal, and healthy. Honestly, I could probably use more anger in my life.

That said, being unhealthy is possible.  And here, personality disorders come in handy. Repetitive and reinforcing dysfunctional coping behaviors are a problem - basically anything with a positive feedback loop.

So, venting?
Type 1: Expressing anger towards a S/O.
Pluses: Reminds people you're human. Can help communicate the existence of a problem.*
Minuses: Hurts people, feels good==self-reinforcing. Leads to conflict, abusive behavior.
My opinion: good in extreme moderation, handled carefully, essentially cayenne pepper. Excluding it from your diet completely - probably a mistake.

Type 2: Expressing anger towards a S/O to people other than the S/O.
Pluses: Can help with emotional processing, helps a lot to verbalize stuff/write it down, outside perspectives help.
Minuses: Modestly increases anger each time.  Quite problematic if combined with lack of personal responsibility or if constantly repeated. Also problematic if used to diffuse righteous anger below the level of action.
My opinion: useful, perhaps vital if performed in moderation.  The additional perspective from the first time through is really handy for me. However, quickly becomes a net minus if performed more than once on a given issue.  Basically - salt.  Excluding it from your diet completely - fatal. Cutting down - possibly healthy if you use a lot.

Type 3: I'll just call this distracting - working off stress with another activity.
Pluses: Not harmful, no feedback loop
Minuses: Problematic if carried to extremes.  A moderate case would be BPDw - whose distraction activities can occupy most of the day, every day, for weeks...  An extreme case would be an old friend who looks like an anorexic now because she exercises too much.

--Argyle
*As opposed to people being surprised that you're angry.

[momtario]

I'm not big on the rage. In fact, I tend not to allow myself the privilege of feeling any anger at all.
This has gotten me into some pretty sticky situations. I don't like to rage (never even did the temper thing as a small child), but allowing my anger to be felt and giving voice to it, so that it is known  -actually allowing my feelings to exist in the open world- has led me to a more mentally healthy, albeit a more confusing and sad, place.

Yes, I let out steam that built up while my head was buried in the sand, but I haven't allowed it to build up again since. Maybe venting isn't healthy for a lot of people, ie- people who are trying to move away from anger... but for those of us who may need to move toward anger to be healthier, it may really help.

I hope this post was coherent.

[JimNelson89]

I disagree.  While venting may initially increase agitation, it later calms one down.  I vent into a computer diary.  I have a phantom counselor that I write to.  Later I read the old messages and wonder why I felt that way.  If I vented directly onto my spouse it would have ended the r/s long ago.

[ennie]

I think anger itself can be a powerful and important emotion.  PArticularly for someone not comfortable setting boundaries, it can allow that person to make boundaries.  It can also level the playing field in a disempowered situation.  Particularly if anger can be expressed without blame, it can be very powerful and important.  My DH has a tendency to allow himself to be walked all over; he was by his ex, anyway, and carried those habits into our relationship.  Anger allowed him to leave her. In our relationship, sometimes I am just fed up with the circumstances, and I am complaining to him.  I usually takes him getting angry to really set a boundary; sometimes he yells, but always says true things:  "It hurts my feelings when you say those things!  I just need a break!  I do not want to hear about how my life is to much for you!  I love you!"  Sometimes I need to hear that in order to be there for my mate.  It might be nice if he could say this when he is calm, but he has habits of disempowering himself, of feeling like his boundaries are not important, only mine are.  So it takes anger to break through his accommodating habits.  Without this, I would not know how much I am hurting him...he would probably just get tired of my frustration one day without me knowing. 

I think when we are in disempowered situations, anger can make us give voice to our piece.  This can be so with an unfair boss, with a bureaucracy, and so forth.  It may feel nicer just to smile and nod, but it does not necessarily allow us to be our whole selves.  I think self expression can happen without anger, but often our inhibitions make us comply when someone else has the power.  Without anger, the boss may never hear how hard she is on her workers.  She may NEED to know this.  I think there is huge value in learning how to express anger in a non-destructive way, in a way that is respectful of the others' point of view without giving up any of your own ground.  Conflict can be a great way for people to get better at making the needs of all be met, particularly if conflict can be peaceful.  I remember how liberating it was for me to tell my mom, "When you say I am ruining your life, I feel really hurt and angry at you."  I remember clearly that I did not blame, but was able to express intense anger in a totally peaceful way.  This was hugely helpful for  me in being able to love my mom more, because the stale resentment I had was blocking love. 

Anger is also an emotion that has negative physical impacts on our bodies.  But so does stress, which results from stuffing anger. 

We are talking about venting, and about how it might perpetuate anger and aggression.  To the degree that anger can be what it takes to empower us to take care of ourselves when we are in "one down" situations, venting is a tool for keeping anger strong even when the ill is not happening.  For any of those who have studied abuse and the "cycle of violence" concepts, a real problem for people in abusive relationships is that they get stuck in a cycle where they are either dealing with crisis, and thus do not leave the abuse, or in a peaceful cycle, and not wanting to leave. I think this is true about any time we are being oppressed--when someone has power over us and it is working for us (we are getting what we want), we do not want to rock the boat.  When it is not working, we are too afraid to rock the boat.  It is okay with me for people to have power over me much of the time, but sometimes it is not. 

With the BPD person in my life, she wields giant power, because she is willing to be crazy and violent.  PArticularly when she does this in front of the kids, I have little power to do or say anything.  I am also structurally disempowered as a step-mom, so I have no rights to make her stop (unless she is doing stuff that is prohibited by criminal law).  Most of the time, I am kind and walk away.  But when things get to intense, sometimes I have been able to get her to stop.  With her, my anger is totally managed--i do not yell or be mean.  But it helps me to be willing to set clear boundaries that are not negotiable. 

Here is the problem.  With a BPD person, the truth is that because that person is mentally ill and cannot change easily, my power (using whatever tools I have) is limited.  The reality is that what I want from her is not possible.  The only way I can REALLY level the playing field is to be happy, and to create social boundaries around her to limit her power (boundaries that might include court orders, and also having her friends and the kids teachers know who she is and what is going on, so her stories do not get traction).  But trying to make her care about my feelings, or not hurt her kids emotionally--she cannot do that, and I cannot make her.  It is like yelling at a flat tire to get it to be not flat. 

Anger can be helpful where someone has the capacity to change.  I am not saying it is the best method, but for some people in some situations, it takes anger to be willing to risk. 

What I have found is that for DH and I, anger has lead us to create boundaries at times, and is good in that way.  But the same stuff happens all the time, so if we are always angry, we have to deal with the physiological effects of these feelings on ourselves and our happiness.  Complaining does sometimes propel us into action, but there is too much that is upsetting to really act on it regularly.  It is true that I think my DH learned to vent once he left his wife, and sustaining that anger, rather than living in fear, made him make choices that are better for the kids and him.  He is not a raging or difficult person when angry; he does not get stuck there.  But he just REALLY avoids conflict unless he is angry. 

For me, I set boundaries without anger.  With the kids, some of their more enmeshed lying and intense behavior results in anger in me...and while I do not always feel great about how I express it, I always do it with love and limited blame, and I think it helps SD11 see when she is being hurtful.  When she is mimicking her mom's worst, I am not sure it is bad for her to have someone respond with appropriate anger.  "I do not like being treated that way.  I feel angry at you right now."  I think me just avoiding dealing with her when she acts that way is easier for me, but is alienating.  Closeness involves knowing when you hurt someone. 

In sum, venting is does perpetuate anger.  When we are powerless, sometimes we need anger to motivate us and lessen inhibition around rocking the boat to get what we need.  Because there is danger when the anger arises, we use venting to keep our feelings strong into peace time, when action may be more useful.  But with a BPD person, if we responded appropriately with anger to each outrageous event, we would be angry all the time. If my DH did once what BPD mom does all the time, I would probably have left him a long time ago.  But with BPD mom, there is not a lot I can do.  Feeling angry does not feel good to my body, so I have to try to inhibit my natural response to her.  Again, my anger is pretty mellow.  I have never been violent with anyone in my anger, and I usually am not even very blaming. 

So venting makes my life unhappy.  It is not that I want not to be angry with her because it does not help; it is because I feel bad when I feel that way a lot.  Anger IS useful, natural, important, but not  necessarily the most effective tool if we can manage and deal with our feelings.  But when someone is not able to change or be influenced by our feelings, that lack of inhibition anger creates does not help.  So to keep up with the anger feels bad to us, with no change to them.  So we have to override the circuit somehow to feel good. 

As a contrast, let me relay an example from my young life.  I was an employee of a grumpy, controlling person.  I took care of her disabled child.  She was gruff and rude every morning.  After a year of working for her, one day she was really mean.  I finally got angry, and told her that I felt angry, and that it really hurt my feelings when she was mean.  She was shocked.  She had no idea that I felt that way, and she told me that a lot of people in her life feel that way.  She told me her husband feels that way, her non-disabled son, and lots of co-workers.  But no-one bothered to tell her how it made them feel.  She cried, I cried, we became great friends.  This is a person who has habits of being rude and controlling, but who is not mentally ill and DOES have the capacity to change her behavior in response to new information .  My anger gave me the push I needed to share my feelings with her, and we were both the better for it.  I am sure I vented many times over the course of being her employee. 

I think the idea that venting (as the term implies) "let's off steam" so we do not blow up CAN be true, when the situation is so extreme that venting is a lesser state of intensity, and when the consequences of speaking our anger to the person it involves are too great.  But in general, venting perpetuates anger. There are times this is useful, and times when it is not.  But whether or not it is useful, it can be destructive to our well being over time; also, our anger tends to make it harder to get allies. 

[PDQuick]

I know this subject is about venting. What causes us to vent? Anger. What is anger?

Anger, to me, which I lived almost my entire adult life in, is a strong emotion. Many papers have been written on the varying degrees and instances of anger. Anger is brought on by many things. What i had the most problem with, during my life, was an anger that I, myself, put myself through, all the while, blaming others for it.

Let me try to explain.

Anger, to me now, is an emotion that is trying to get my attention, to tell me to move, or to change. When I say move, I don't mean it in a literal sense, I mean it in an emotional one. I used to get angry at my job, my relationship, and my life. People would take advantage of me, and I would get angry for the motives of the person that took advantage of me. I would either cast them out of my life, or stay away from them. This didn't solve the problem, because it continued to happen with different people. That continued to anger me. Then I would get frustrated in my anger, because it kept happening, and would build up to a point where I had to have a release.

What my anger was trying to get me to do was to get to the bottom of the dynamic. It was trying to teach me something. I have found that things that used to anger me, now don't if I understand them. I understand now that people were taking advantage of me, because I allowed them, and I now know the reasons that I allowed it to happen. I have since repaired those reasons. Now it doesn't happen, and I don't get angry.

This has happened to me on so many different levels over the years. Mindfulness, compassion and understanding are the antidote to anger. None of which I practiced in my earlier adult life. I just reacted, with no understanding of my own emotions, or the circumstances that brought others to their own meeting point with me.

[HardDaysNight]

Have to read the thread but to respond to the title. 

I think it is healthy to vent as long as it does not serve as a substitute for action or working on yourself to make things better for you, and your children if you have them.

Venting can help release frustration and anger thereby helping you focus on the dayd to day work of living with a pwbpd.

[flatspin]

Excerpt from the movie Pathfinder :

- A : There are two wolves fighting in each man's heart. One is Love, the other is Hate.
- B : Which one wins?
- A : The one you feed the most.

-------------------------------------

I think that venting is good but at the condition that we don't vent just for the sake of it or because anger/sadness has turned into bitterness and hate.

To vent is to be mainly descriptive. I've been venting here and it made me feel good. Others vent too and when I read their stories, I came to understand that some of my wife's behaviours and ways were caused by her illness. It placated me and reinforced my love for her, despite the temporary anger. Reading other's stories is like being in front of a mirror in which we see ourselves and that may help us to realize that feeling angry/guilty/sad is a normal reaction and that we can overcome those negative feelings and turn them into positive ones.