TOOLS: Dealing with Enmeshment and Codependence

[an0ught]

US: Dealing with Enmeshment and Codependence

In an enmeshed relationship the two parties overlap, psychologically. It is a particularly problematic situation as the BPD sufferer struggles to deal with the own emotions and we become involved with it.  Our feelings are the pwBPD's feelings and the pwBPD's feelings must be ours. And we become a means for the BPD sufferer to visualize their own feelings and self validate. When we do not play along and when our feelings are out of sync with the BPD sufferer's feelings (because we are after all independent) we are likely to invalidate the pwBPD with bad short and long term consequences.



Some definitions from Skip that may help...

Interdependence It is what everyone wants.  Interdependence is two whole people who are capable of giving, being vulnerable and connected.

Cohesion is a measure of supportive interaction (including warmth, time together, nurturance, physical intimacy, and consistency).

Enmeshment is a measure of psychological control (including coercive control, separation anxiety, possessiveness/jealousy, emotional reactivity, and projective mystification). In an enmeshed family everyone shares the other's life-system. One learns not to look within one's self for awareness of what one is about, but to the other members of the family. The husband who is happy when his wife is happy and sad when wife is depressed is an example of enmeshment. This is also referred to as co-dependence.

Disengagement is the extreme opposite of both cohesion and enmeshment.

We want Interdependence.  We generally counterbalance the enmeshment with some level of disengagement - hopefully not too much because it also affects the cohesion.  

If we are in an enmeshing environment, it's hard not to become enmeshed.  It's not likely we will change the others, so ultimately it comes down to how we process the enmeshing environment as to how it affects our quality of life.  

The starting is point is to realize that this is a problem that we face and the goal we want to achieve.

In this workshop we want to discuss:

How did we get there?
What is our role? What is the other persons role
How can we breakout from enmeshment?

[Lucky Jim]

Great topic, anOught.  I think it's easy to get enmeshed in a BPD relationship and, if you're not careful, you can lose all sense of self, which is no fun, believe me.  One way to look at it is that those with BPD tend to be "takers" in an emotional sense, always trying to fill the inner void with something.  It could be their relationship with the Non, alcohol, drugs, self-harm, or usually some combination of the above.  On the other hand, we Nons tend to be "givers" in the sense of trying to help others, to the point of our own detriment.  When you put together a "taker" and a "giver," it's like lining up the opposite polls of a magnet: the pull is strong and there is a high probability of enmeshment, in my view.

As I see it, the solution, in part, comes from boundaries and detachment, and getting back in touch with one's own independent thoughts and feelings, which sounds easy but takes a lot of effort, particularly because the pwBPD will strongly resist any attempt to pull back, due to their own fear of abandonment, and there is likely to be a heavy dose of FOG applied in response to the Non's attempt to become un-enmeshed.

At least that's my perspective on this important issue.  Ukeplayer

[CaptainM]

Great topic!

The hardest part with enmeshment for me is that, by the very nature of our personalities and conditions, both me and my SO are constantly told by our brains that that is the way to be, the way that brings happiness.

My SO feels most comfortable when I have no friends, no family, no outside interests and basically she is in 'control'. As a consequence of me complying with her demands, I lose friends, I lose family and I become ever more reliant on the only relationship I'm left with...I become co-dependent and an extension of my SO.

Then, of course, at the slightest hint of dysregulation...BOOM. It explodes, and both our lives are thrown into chaos.

So how do we get out?

For me, it continues to be a slow process and requires me to be constantly aware of my own actions. I often have to step outside of myself and look at my situation objectively, like me and my SO were characters in a play, and inspect the power-plays in the relationship to see whether they're healthy or not.

Since being in DBT, my SO is showing some signs of introspection as well and is often encouraging of me when I say I am going to go out for sport or something social. I know her brain is yelling at her to go the other way and 'yank the chain', but mostly she has been better.

Still, the biggest fear/issue/problem to overcoming enmeshment is fear of being alone. Being in a relationship with a pwBPD can be demoralizing for long periods of time. Unchecked, your confidence gets shot and your ability to value yourself as an individual disappears. So importantly for me, unenmeshment requires me to push my personal boundaries. Take up new sports, put myself in social situations, and try incredibly hard to enjoy them for what they are. Don't spend the whole time worrying about the repercussions of my own enjoyment.

It's a difficult road, and it's often so ingrained (having been 5 years in an undiagnosed BPD relationship - I was [and am] pretty mixed up) that it feels like breaking an addiction. You've got to ignore your instincts and be prepared to feel uncomfortable. It does get easier...but as soon as I stop the constant assessment of myself, I begin to slip back. For me, it requires constant attention...and probably will for some time to come.

[iluminati]

I don't think I've had enmeshment to the point where I never did my own thing.  My approach was one of negotiation.  For example, when we lived in another state and visited people at home, I knew I needed to get back by a certain time AND do something she liked for her to feel like I wasn't abandoning her...even if all I was doing was catching up with friends and family every now and again.

How I managed to do it was to do it.  I had to set a boundary that I needed my me time, and if she was going to get upset, oh well, that's her problem.  Now does that approach stop the rages?  Of course not.  If I had a dime for every time I was accused of abandoning her, I'd be a wealthy man.   But I needed to do it to keep my sanity.

On a slightly different note, the biggest part of my wife's enmeshment was her going through my emails and listening to my phone calls.  If I didn't constantly praise her name when I mentioned her during my conversations and mentioned anything ever so slightly negative, I wouldn't hear the end of it.  I had to enforce a boundary that my communications are MY business, and I have the right to talk about who I want about what I want.  I've also learned to not have conversations on the phone around her to keep my own space.

[holdingouthope]

This has been a very big issue for me. I ended up in therapy because of it, where my T explained to me just how enmeshed we were, and what I needed to do to detach myself before I ended up in an emergency room (it was manifesting to real suffocation feelings and such). Not surprisingly, my wife does not like it at all. What I described as enmeshed, she described as "love", and so if I became less enmeshed, I must not love her. It's an all or nothing game. I've now few friends, few places where I feel I can truly be myself, and I still struggle with the "how will she react" syndrome, although for the most part now I've moved past that. But it took me several years even to get this far. And I still feel guilty for doing my own thing, and she endorses my feeling guilty. So I do my own thing infrequently. She has few friends, so I am supposed to be her one and only companion. I'm the one "who's never supposed to leave, the one and only person I can count on" were her words. It's a weighty load to bear.

The problem is that, as it takes two to become enmeshed, to truly become un-enmeshed it takes two as well. This way, I feel sort of as though I'm pulling a rope in a tug of war. A gain, a gain, a loss of holding, then tug again. I'm sort of settling in to a depression about the whole state of affairs as well, which isn't helping me - it just gets to feeling hopeless at times, and you get tired of trying to manage something that shouldn't even need management.
HOH

[Lemlover]

EXCELLENT TOPIC--that has been at the forefront of my mind, lately.
Enmeshment so easy to fall into, so hard to escape. 
I met my bpdh as a teenager and still in ubpdmomsters clutches. I did not know any better. As I grew up, and he did not, I tried to unmesh myself and suffered the consequences (mental, emotional, physical abuse) that I thought were normal. I thought I was crazy, but knew in my heart deep down that I was not.  At some points, I got so entangled in FOG and was/am so codependent, that unmeshing became my problem--I didn't want it.
Now as I am further disentangling my meshment, am experiencing extinction bursts and threats of divorce--which I do not want (yet) and am struggling too overcome these threats and let the chips fall where they may.
We have to maintain our individual identities--do things on our own and for ourselves in order to grow as a couple, but bpd's just don't see this. Nor do they see the harm enmeshment causes--except when they are feeling suffocated  .
I am working on me, my worth as an individual and my feelings.  Because h doesn't like what I do, doesn't make me a bad person.  Because he paints me black, doesn't mean the world sees me as black.  Because he sees me as untrustworthy does not make me a liar and a cheat.  I will overcome the little belief that is left--that I am somehow not good enough or undeserving. I am good and I deserve better than being loved part time or on "terms" or "conditions" that are constantly changing. As I change and grow, I won't let him try to force me back into codependency.

[Jaybird]

I am still trying to figure this out.  I never felt I lost myself in my marriage.  I have always been an independant sort of person, very intropsective. I have always had good friends, activities, hobbies, and strong convictions.  I suspect I have catered too much to my DH under the guise of being his "helpmate".  I felt like a single mom and raised/homeschooled our daughters myself.  While he has always struggled with being productive, early years of counseling did not bring an improvement on follow up skills.  Eventually it just became easier to do everything myself.  Now I don't know where to draw the line between what he is capable of(and insisiting that he figure it out)and what he just isn't up to.  I see myself caving(out of FOG) too frequently to his subtle pressure to spend all my time with him.  What I am working on now is not letting is current state of dysregulation bring me down.  His moodiness does not have to equal my moodiness.  I am a separate person with a good, fulfilling life out side of my marriage.  What he says about me does not need to be internalized and I don't need to feel the sting of it for days on end.  Still so much to learn...

[Skip]

Some definitions that may help...

Interdependence It is what everyone wants.  Interdependence is two whole people who are capable of giving, being vulnerable and connected.

Cohesion is a measure of supportive interaction (including warmth, time together, nurturance, physical intimacy, and consistency).

Enmeshment is a measure of psychological control (including coercive control, separation anxiety, possessiveness/jealousy, emotional reactivity, and projective mystification). In an enmeshed family everyone shares the other's life-system. One learns not to look within one's self for awareness of what one is about, but to the other members of the family. The husband who is happy when his wife is happy and sad when wife is depressed is an example of enmeshment. This is also referred to as co-dependence.

Disengagement is the extreme opposite of both cohesion and enmeshment.

We want Interdependence.  We generally counterbalance the enmeshment with some level of disengagement - hopefully not too much because it also affects the cohesion.  

If we are in an enmeshing environment, it's hard not to become enmeshed.  It's not likely we will change the others, so ultimately it comes down to how we process the enmeshing environment as to how it affects our quality of life.  

The starting is point is to realize that this is a problem that we face and the goal we want to achieve.

[1q2w3e]

I'm definitely struggling with being too deeply enmeshed wth UBPW.
Interestingly, I met up with an old buddy of mine who I haven't seen in about 10 months (I was always coming up with excuses for not getting together sooner - all because I was fearful of W's reaction, and ultimately, not feeling worthy enough to really take care of myself by seeking my old friends).  Anyway, we hung out, had a beer or two, shared war stories about our wives, and I walked away feeling great about myself.  And surprisingly, I felt more enthusiastic and less dreadful of going home than I've felt in a long time.  The simple act of just hanging out and talking with an old friend helped to validate and normalize my feelings, and gain much needed perspective.  The FOG lifted!

But what to do when your SO also struggles with hypochondria?  My wife's symptoms are very real to her, I can appreciate the strong mind-body link such that physiological symptoms can really manifest themselves.  How to stay sympathetic when she feels sick although all indications are that her hypersensitivity, anxiety, and momentary panic are the real culprits?  We've spoken in the past about her getting back on her anti-anxiety meds, but this typically triggers dysregulation - her weak and fragile ego can't handle the idea that some of her pains are psychosomatic.  I'm really struggling with this.

[Ikwit]

My relationship with my BPDh started with a lot of closeness and time together which naturally comes with that stage of a relationship. Little did I know that this is what my h would expect for the rest of our lives.  Soon after we were married I was in T for personal issues-I grew TONS and got healthy.  H did not.  Has never done T for any length of time until recent DBT.  So I began trying to have my own life with healthy separation and togetherness.  For many years something didn't feel right, h was too smothering, but I couldn't identify it beyond that.  Finally, about 3 years ago, I couldn't take it anymore and told h he had to get help (REAL help) or get out.  That's when we found out about his ADHD and BPD issues.  Since that time I've learned tons from my own T and lessons on this site.  I will never forget the day it hit me that we were WAY enmeshed.  My h has no sense of privacy or personal space-if he wants to occupy a space he will.  He constantly barges into the bathroom (a super tiny space enough for 1 person) when I'm in there and just completely takes over, moves me out of the way...  It suddenly hit me that I let this happen and I don't need to.  I started setting boundaries, taking back my space, my words, my body, my ideas, my feelings.  It was pretty ugly on his end, but I am once again myself, I am healthy and feel TONS better than I have in years!

[Lucky Jim]

Skip, The definition of enmeshment you posted reminds me of a saying that one friend once shared with me -- "Happy wife, happy life" -- which to me is codependence in a nutshell and not something to which I subscribe.

IQ2 & Ikwit, I salute both of you on your efforts to avoid enmeshment.  IQ, connecting with an old friend is a great way to gain perspective again, and yes, my ubpdw is a hypochondriac, too.  She is bedridden again today and just called, asking me to bring her some soup, which I declined to do, in a nice way (I'm not that codependent anymore!  Years ago I might have jumped at her request).

IKwit, You said it well:

It suddenly hit me that I let this happen and I don't need to.  I started setting boundaries, taking back my space, my words, my body, my ideas, my feelings.

It feels like I am on a similar journey to reclaim friends, feelings, thoughts, and interests that I lost for a while there in the throes of a BPD marriage.

Thanks to all, Uke

[iluminati]

Skip, The definition of enmeshment you posted reminds me of a saying that one friend once shared with me -- "Happy wife, happy life" -- which to me is codependence in a nutshell and not something to which I subscribe.

IQ2 & Ikwit, I salute both of you on your efforts to avoid enmeshment.  IQ, connecting with an old friend is a great way to gain perspective again, and yes, my ubpdw is a hypochondriac, too.  She is bedridden again today and just called, asking me to bring her some soup, which I declined to do, in a nice way (I'm not that codependent anymore!  Years ago I might have jumped at her request).

IKwit, You said it well:

It suddenly hit me that I let this happen and I don't need to.  I started setting boundaries, taking back my space, my words, my body, my ideas, my feelings.

It feels like I am on a similar journey to reclaim friends, feelings, thoughts, and interests that I lost for a while there in the throes of a BPD marriage.

Thanks to all, Uke

Thankfully, I never hit that point where I completely disconnected, and there's one thing I had to thank for that...haircuts. 

Allow me to explain.  At one point a couple years ago, my wife and I lived in a different state from where I grew up in, but within easy distance for a day trip.  Fortunately for me, the town where we lived didn't have a barbershop with expertise in cutting hair for Black people.  As a result, I used her desire to keep my hair looking nice as an excuse to go back to where I was from, get my hair cut, and since I made such a loooong trip go see other people or do other things while I was out. 

The take-home in this example is that you need to have your one thing to hang you hat on to do on your own, from which you can branch out and do other things...without your pwBPD.

[toomanyeggshells]

This is also a big issue in my relationship.  My uBPD live-in bf wants me to "just cut back" on doing things outside the relationship.  Really, he wants me 100% to himself ... he's not fooling me  

On a recent Saturday morning, his D16 needed a ride an hour away and he wanted me to go (1 hour there, stay 1 hour and 1 hour back).  When I suggested that I could get something else done during that time that would take me about 2 hours and then we would have the whole rest of the weekend together, HE ACTUALLY WENT FOR IT! 

I did what I had to do, then went for a haircut and then stopped at another store.  It was unbelievable how free I felt having 3 hours to myself. It was also unbelievable how much it upset me that I was that happy to have 3 hours to myself.  It really brought into focus how much I need some time to myself.  I actually felt "normal" during that time ... not feeling like I had to rush home so I wasn't a minute late, not having him breathing down my neck so to speak. 

Note to self - I need to set a boundary for this too!

[Skip]

What does it feel like to be "interdependent"?  I'm not suggesting that this is an easily acheivible state with a partner with BPD - but as the emotional leaders its important that we know what the ideal is.

   1.  Interdependent couples accept the need for them to change and take ownership of their own issues. They do not blame their partner or others for their problems, nor do they assume the role of a victim. Interdependent couples are able to realize what their issues are on an individual level, and are dedicated and motivated to working through their issues, regardless of what their partner has chosen to do. They recognize when their issues are being brought into the marriage, and are dedicated to their own growth and recovery.

   2. Interdependent couples don’t give up their own identity. They recognize the importance of having and maintaining their own identity outside of the marriage, in addition to their identity as a couple. I view interdependent relationships as having a “me”, “you”, and “us”. I like to think of interdependence like the concept of fire. In order for fire to burn, it must have the right amount of oxygen to survive. Without oxygen, the fire will burn out. Much the same in relationships, when one person “becomes” the other person, the relationship does not get the oxygen it needs in order to survive and the fire will go out. We call this term enmeshment. On the same note, with too much oxygen, the fire will burn out of control. In relationships, when people become disconnected emotionally and there is too much distance between them, we term this “cut-off”. Interdependent couples are able to celebrate their individuality and uniqueness, without “becoming” the other person, or taking on the other person’s feelings. They feel confident to express their own opinions, without sacrificing their own sense of self for another person. At the same time, however, they are able to compromise in the relationship and are sensitive to the other person’s needs without compromising their own values and self-worth.

   3. Interdependent couples are able to confront and criticize their partner in a non-judgmental, healthy, and non-blaming manner, without rage and without shaming. They also step up to the plate in accepting their own role in the marital conflict, accepting constructive criticism without becoming defensive or reactive. Because they are able to accept their own flaws, their own need for change, and work on their own issues, interdependent couples are fully accepting of each other, including their flaws! It is much like each partner is holding up a mirror to the other. This mirror allows the partner to see both strengths and weaknesses, which can be seen as an opportunity for growth as opposed to a passive-aggressive way of hurting the other person.

   4. Interdependent couples are not enablers, and set good boundaries and limits in their relationships. They do not enable nor do they invite hurtful, dysfunctional, and unhealthy behavior to continue in their partner or relationship. Through the continual process of recognizing and working on their own issues, as well as having a voice in their relationships, they share mutual respect with each other. When they do not feel respected, they are able to voice their feelings in a genuine manner. By setting good boundaries and limits with others, interdependent individuals hold others accountable for their actions. They do not assume responsibility for, rescue, or make excuses for the other person’s unhealthy behavior. As they continue to work on their own growth and recovery, they are confident in letting go of unhealthy and destructive behaviors in their life.

   5. Interdependent couples fight! They fight in a healthy way and do not fear or avoid healthy conflict and uncomfortable feelings in their marriage. Because they are able to express their genuine feelings when they occur, they are able to show anger in a healthy way, without rage. When they do show their feelings in an unhealthy manner, they are able to recognize their relapse, realize what deeper issues have been touched, and forgive themselves without spiraling in shame. They are also able to forgive their partners for their mistakes. Interdependent couples recognize that to deny feelings is to deny who we truly are. They accept that the full range of emotion is to be real. They know that without expressing genuine emotion, the feelings will run their lives and take over in the form of addictions or other counterproductive and unhealthy behaviors.

   6. Interdependent couples have healthy communication, with deep connection and intimate sharing. Because they are consistently working on healing their emotional wounds and confronting their emotional pain, they feel free to communicate and show others their real self. Commitment to working on their relationship is a priority. They commit to therapy and individual growth in their recovery. They trust the process of healing, trusting their ability to feel their pain, work through their issues, and follow through with their individual and marriage counseling appointments.

~ Joleen Watson MS Ed, NCC

[toomanyeggshells]

I'm not going to quote Skip's whole post, but that's an amazing piece of writing.  I've already read it 3 times! I printed it out and I'm going to carry it in my purse to read and re-read and just maybe, if the time is ever right, show it to my bf. Thanks for posting that Skip 

[hotapollo]

Thanks for this amazing post...
I needed this right now as Im struggling to get out of the FOG.
Can we not have this as a pdf file on the site for everyone to read?

[an0ught]

hotapollo,

this will move at one point to the workshop section.

And you immediately hit on one interesting aspect - FOG.

Enmeshment works both ways. BPD over-reacts to our stuff. But also we over-react to their stuff (and that side is wild and weird). And this has quite some disorienting effect.

[raven11]

Great Topic and posts.  Really needed this today as I've been dealing with a lot of emeshment issues the past couple of months both with FOO and with a number of situations in the work place.

How we get there?  For me, the original pattern was established in my FOO - uBPDm; absent uPDf combined with the best and worst of a small town, strict religious upbringing.  It wasn't "ok" to have thoughts and feelings that didn't agree with what you were "supposed" to think and feel; anger was not ok unless you were the authority figure.  Questioning things or pushing back was "rebellion" and selfishness.  You should be nice to people, not hurt their feelings and do for others first.  Not too much room in that world to develop good boundaries or an independent sense of self.

Also not surprising that I have ended up in a number of personal and professional relationships where I didn't recognize warning signs of exploitation or unhealthy emeshment until some crisis event. . . or if I sensed something wasn't quite right, or felt instrusive, I didn't have any self-protection "how-to's" or practice.  Still trying to learn that.

I think that lack of validation in the past has made me very vulnerable to the "you're wonderful, you are so understanding, etc." hook with manipulative people. Learning to not automatically respond to requests, hints, neediness without FOGging myself is huge.  Setting limits and not taking on other people's frustration when they don't get what they want or are used to is also important for me.  Not sure how to say this, but I need to get a better balance around "entitlement" - I need to expect more for myself and respond less to others sense of entitlement.  I'm amazed and caught off-guard by the things some people feel free to do and expect, when I would never take those kinds of liberties.  Some place in the middle is healthy interdependence.

I'm dealing with several situations at work right now where I'm needing to pull back because in the name of teamwork, collegiality, etc. things have gotten very emeshed and unhealthy.   It's uncomfortable and awkward and very difficult to redraw boundary lines - especially when you realize that some of the players were using those "admirable words and concepts" as a cover for exploitive BPD and PD supply games.  How people respond when you say "no" is becoming my early warning sign for "Emeshment Danger Ahead".

[justMehere]

Is this an ongoing workshop? I think it would be great to come together on this common subject. 

[sarah1234]

I come from the angle that my mother wants to be enmeshed with me. She probably has been to some point. I want to peel her off of me. She is not bpd. Just very enmeshed co-dependent. This is very helpful thread to me I hadn't seen it before