BOUNDARIES: Case studies

[Think About It...]

Of course i wasn't seeing my life the way i see it now and blackanwhite you said Somewhere along the way, you learned this principle about boundaries and values yes i learned it in the hard way the price was so high after 28 years of marriage

I can see now how the problem started at my childhood my father was emotionally abuser i've been mollested at the age of 9 and at the age of 17 from adults who represent for me high level of power and social position in other word who are idol in life and i started having low self image and self worth and self respect i felt the guilt and shame and dirtiness for not saying no to the people who were nice to me and gave me candies not knowing that they stole my rights.

The worst was when my father in law did the same and shook the idol image of the father. In my mind fathers do not do mistakes so if it is not his mistake then it is mine
Marrying the man who is like my father made things worst after my FIL incident my H turned from idealizing me to switch me black. Living with one who has BPD traits was not helping my self esteem to see the light at the contrary it dragged me more down he was mistreating me and later our kids.
In all the situations that i went through in my life i wasn't self confident seeking to please the others to avoid being blamed mixing the concept of loving me for who i am and loving me for what i can do...

I was so good in protecting my kids or anyone who needs me but when it comes to myself I was choosing to sacrifice my needs for the best of my beloved OR the best of the family or...

All i needed was seeing myself as worthy
And finding a way to justify my actions so i don't feel guilty

The transition from A to B happened when i became totally consumed when i was broken in pieces when my patience reached the edges when no matter what i did or how much i ran back and forth to keep my doors locked didn't help to protect me from the invasion and the harm that resulted from that.

What brought me back was the LOVE OF LIFE i felt my self dying in unfair life i needed to recollect myself and save what is left of me
EVEN THEN i couldn't take the decision until i had this justification:
THE WELL BEING OF MY KIDS this justification gave me the push and the satisfaction that i need and i felt myself not selfish but it is also for my kids well being.

That's how i started improving myself in this point starting from my own life inside my house with my H. Each time i was gaining more confidence and more self esteem... I was equally gaining more power and my H started to change strategies to attack in different ways but this showed me his weaknesses and empowered me even more because i felt i am doing right things to me and to my beloved (of course reading about boundaries and values and the support of the friends at BPDF and other forum  who were assisting me in my progress helped me a lot to see things clearly)

Anyway i am still in the process of forcing my boundaries and always trying to justify my actions to not guilt myself and i can say i am still doing the baby steps
It is still much easier to force my boundaries with people who doesn't know me than with the people who already knew my weakness as you said blackandwhite it is not this simple as it seems

The main think is i have had uncountable incidents in my life where my boundaries were invaded let's call them A to Z but when i improved in my life with me H in situation A the improvement reached all the places from A to Z because the change wasn't in my house it was in my inside and then all the other situations changed  

[LVS]

Of course i wasn't seeing my life the way i see it now and blackanwhite you said Somewhere along the way, you learned this principle about boundaries and values yes i learned it in the hard way the price was so high after 28 years of marriage

I can see now how the problem started at my childhood my father was emotionally abuser i've been mollested at the age of 9 and at the age of 17 from adults who represent for me high level of power and social position in other word who are idol in life and i started having low self image and self worth and self respect i felt the guilt and shame and dirtiness for not saying no to the people who were nice to me and gave me candies not knowing that they stole my rights.

The worst was when my father in law did the same and shook the idol image of the father. In my mind fathers do not do mistakes so if it is not his mistake then it is mine
Marrying the man who is like my father made things worst after my FIL incident my H turned from idealizing me to switch me black. Living with one who has BPD traits was not helping my self esteem to see the light at the contrary it dragged me more down he was mistreating me and later our kids.
In all the situations that i went through in my life i wasn't self confident seeking to please the others to avoid being blamed mixing the concept of loving me for who i am and loving me for what i can do...

I was so good in protecting my kids or anyone who needs me but when it comes to myself I was choosing to sacrifice my needs for the best of my beloved OR the best of the family or...

All i needed was seeing myself as worthy
And finding a way to justify my actions so i don't feel guilty

The transition from A to B happened when i became totally consumed when i was broken in pieces when my patience reached the edges when no matter what i did or how much i ran back and forth to keep my doors locked didn't help to protect me from the invasion and the harm that resulted from that.

What brought me back was the LOVE OF LIFE i felt my self dying in unfair life i needed to recollect myself and save what is left of me
EVEN THEN i couldn't take the decision until i had this justification:
THE WELL BEING OF MY KIDS this justification gave me the push and the satisfaction that i need and i felt myself not selfish but it is also for my kids well being.

That's how i started improving myself in this point starting from my own life inside my house with my H. Each time i was gaining more confidence and more self esteem... I was equally gaining more power and my H started to change strategies to attack in different ways but this showed me his weaknesses and empowered me even more because i felt i am doing right things to me and to my beloved (of course reading about boundaries and values and the support of the friends at BPDF and other forum  who were assisting me in my progress helped me a lot to see things clearly)

Anyway i am still in the process of forcing my boundaries and always trying to justify my actions to not guilt myself and i can say i am still doing the baby steps
It is still much easier to force my boundaries with people who doesn't know me than with the people who already knew my weakness as you said blackandwhite it is not this simple as it seems

The main think is i have had uncountable incidents in my life where my boundaries were invaded let's call them A to Z but when i improved in my life with me H in situation A the improvement reached all the places from A to Z because the change wasn't in my house it was in my inside and then all the other situations changed  

[CalicoSilver]

I'd like to look toward another principle by posing a question. If we say that boundaries are rules of a sort, who are they rules for? Are boundaries rules for yourself, or for another person?
B&W

Boundaries, in my view, serve to regulate future interactions between ourselves and someone else. So, they're applicable to both.

In establishing a boundary - we want someone else to change their behavior. We hope they will, anyway. The act of establishing a reasonable boundary helps to empower us by taking responsibility for ourselves and helps stop setting ourselves up to be victims.

We set boundaries to define our territory and protect our space - physical, emotional, mental, sexual, spiritual, financial, etc. We set these boundaries because this is what we need to do for ourselves.

We set them having full knowledge that the other person may not be able or willing to change their behavior - and also that we are fully prepared to take any action we deem necessary when it becomes obvious that they're not going to change. That action may include cutting that person out of our life completely.

I've often been asked if setting boundaries isn't just a sophisticated way of manipulating others. And I suppose the difference between setting a boundary in a healthy way and manipulation is when setting a boundary, we let go of the outcome. If we intend to manipulate others, we expect a certain outcome. Big difference.

[blackandwhite]

Thank you, LVS and CalicoSilver! Great further contributions. We're exploring the question of boundaries as rules and who the rules are for in relation to our formula:

Boundaries = Our value system in action

I'd like to go back to an example Gettingthere provided us:

Quote from Gettingthere

This [mother taking photos of kids without permission] went on over years. Initially i was too scared to do anything, then over time started telling her. This resulted in a huge guilt trip "we live so far away we dont get too see them/ the photos arent for me but elderly relatives who cant come to visit" etc. As i started to verbally repeat my boundary, she became more and more sneaky in an effort to "prove" I would not give her a boundary...she'd say she'd take the kids to the park...a few days later one of the kids would say "how come she took my photo at the top of the slide when we dont do photos?" - or wait till i out of the room and whip a damn camcorder/camera thing out of her handbag - then a couple days later play it too me trying to get me to agree it was cute - then i didnt agree but felt i'd betrayed myself for not speaking up stronger

Gettingthere also offered how awful she felt about these incidents. That bad feeling was a sign to her that something was wrong, that her doors were open somewhere and bad things were coming in. Telling her mother not to take photos was her lock (verbal boundary). However, if we look at her actions (and Gettingthere thank you for offering this for us all to learn, it's very instructive  x), we see:

Gettingthere lets Mom take kids to park--take photos
Gettingthere leaves Mom in room with kids--takes photos
Gettingthere allows Mom to discuss why photos are needed (guilt)
Gettingthere would watch video

Since actions speak louder than words, we can weigh these:

LET MOM TAKE AND DISCUSS PHOTOS REPEATEDLY         versus          "Don't take photos" verbal statement

In this case, Gettingthere set a rule for her mother, but her mother chose not to follow the rule. It was a rule for another person; unfortunately, this person was a boundary buster. Once her mother broke the rule, she felt powerless (and angry and a lot of other things, I think) to stop it and even more defeated herself. 

The values here are probably something like--Gettingthere please comment or correct, as of course I'm speculating:

I believe in no photos for my kids. (This is what Gettingthere was verbally saying.)
I believe that I need to bow to my mother's wishes. (This is what the action is saying.)
I believe that I am a bad person (guilt) if I don't do what my mother says. (This is what the action is saying.)
I believe that my opinions do not matter. (This is what the action is saying.)
I believe that I can control another person. (This is what the action is saying.)

CalicoSilver said:

We set boundaries to define our territory and protect our space - physical, emotional, mental, sexual, spiritual, financial, etc. We set these boundaries because this is what we need to do for ourselves.

We set them having full knowledge that the other person may not be able or willing to change their behavior - and also that we are fully prepared to take any action we deem necessary when it becomes obvious that they're not going to change.

Boundaries as rules for other people don't work. Other people, especially boundary busters, break rules.

Does this make sense? Can you see this principle playing out in your own life?

[Gettingthere]

On the whole, i agree with you B&W, and it looks laughable when you put it like that!
I agree boundaries are for us, not trying to control others, however you have put

"I believe that I can control another person. (This is what the action is saying.)"

Now i'm confused, how is the action saying i am trying to control her? In the sense that i dont want her to take the photos, then i guess, but i dont understand how stating that i dont want her to take photos is controlling? Please explain.

As we are NC its not technically an issue, but lets just say we rewind the clock. How do or would others handle this. After the park incident, no i never let her take them out alone again. I never did directly state that it was why neither, and she never directly said she knew, just pouted sulked and acted generally martyrish.

But in the house, its harder. I cant physically be there all the time - need to make meals/tend to baby etc (and no, the queen  doesnt help  )  I can see now the only consequences were what i took ie bad feelings from myself, and from husband as we both agree with not taking the photos, but never once did i say, if you persist you may not visit or whatever...

Oh the benefit of the retroscope! This is helpful, thanks

[blackandwhite]

Hi Gettingthere. I'm so glad you posted and we can explore more. I have to run now but will reply in more depth later. I love the idea of the "retroscope," LOL! The thing about control is a great topic in relation to boundaries, and I'm not using that word in the way we often do casually to mean pushy or demanding or anything like that. More later...

B&W

[LVS]

BlackandWhite Thank you for this interesting workshop
You said::
Boundaries as rules for other people don't work. Other people, especially boundary busters, break rules.
IMO all of us if we get the chance we can be boundary busters
Who breaks our boundary doesn't do the same thing with other people who keep their boundaries
IMO Boundaries as rules work if they are followed by actions

Gettingthere You asked for others opinion and i like to give mine since i can see for the others better than i see for myself

If you rewind time you need to believe that:
You did all what you can or have to do with your mom
You gave her all chances
Most boundaries busters are close people to us could be father mother husband son or daughter...

So don't fall in the FOG(Fear, Obligation, Guilt)
Tell her when taking pictures will be ok (it could be once a year)
Tell her that enjoying times at the expense of the others' well being is full of selfishness this is not what the mothers are committed to be
We really want you to be with us have fun and enjoy the time together, we love you
Taking pictures is causing an issue if you chose to keep taking them it is like telling us you care for the pictures more than for you care for us
We do love you but you are hurting our love
We need you as a caring mother and if you keep showing us that you care more for material things don't be surprise when you find us not wanting you to be with us

Is this make any sens?

[blackandwhite]

Let's get back to the picture taking example, but I wanted to have this information in as a reference...

Boundaries and Values in Relationships: Scenarios

Our working definition:

Boundaries = your value system in action; they contain and protect your sense of who you are and give you a stable platform from which to relate to others. How does that look in action in different types of relationships? Let's examine some scenarios.


Both Have Good Boundaries
If two people have a healthy sense of self and good self-esteem, and are clear about their values, serious boundary issues aren't too likely to arise. As they get to know each other, there will be exploration and some testing, but they are likely to work things out without a great deal of conflict.

Example: You make a new friend at work. Friend is very warm, but prefers to keep social interactions to a bit of chit chat at work, some lunches, and perhaps a quick happy hour now and then. Friend keeps weekends private and for the family. Although you feel you would enjoy getting to know friend's family and vice versa, you accept this limit. You have other friends you see on weekends and you value the friendship even if it's not as close as it could be.

As LVS pointed out, all of us--as human beings--are boundary busters sometimes. Let's say you have a great boss, but from time to time, he asks too many questions about your personal life for your comfort. Or your neighbor, who is so helpful and nice, peers into your windows when you have visitors. Or you feel a bit shut out of your spouse's life when he/she takes on a new project, and you find yourself reading his/her e-mail when it's left open on the desktop. All of those are boundary busting acts that need some attention; if both parties have good boundaries generally, however, they can usually be discussed or handled in a calm way using some communication techniques we can talk about more later in this workshop.

One Has Good Boundaries, One Has Poor Boundaries
If a person with a healthy sense of self and good self-esteem and a clear sense of personal values encounters someone with none of those qualities, such as a person with BPD, some boundary issues are likely to arise, but be resolved fairly quickly.

Example: A young man meets a young woman and they begin to date. She's extremely taken with him and gives him a lot of attention. He feels flattered at first, and protective when she starts having a hard time with her roommate. However, when she pushes to move in with him as a way to solve her problem and for them to get closer, he realizes he needs to slow things down. He likes this woman, but he knows he's not ready to live together and he's not afraid of being alone. He lets her know, kindly, and she breaks things off with him in a rage. Although he's upset at the turn the relationship took and is bewildered by the intensity, he's generally relieved and senses he's avoided worse by nipping things in the bud.

Of course it's quite possible that a relationship with a person with BPD erodes one's good boundaries (self-esteem, sense of self, values) over time. It's also possible to develop a good sense of these qualities but have an "exception" in your life, such as your BPD sister or boyfriend. The exception is a clue that the the self-esteem, sense of self, and values aren't as firm as they might be. Your values should be consistent across your life, even if applied in different ways in different realms (at work versus with your children, for example).

Both Have Poor Boundaries
In these relationships, there is a degree of enmeshment, with poor delineation between one person and another. One or more of the examples of poor boundaries that Phillip Mitchell describes in Boundaries: Tools of Respect may be present:

• A poor sense or disregard of personal space—not sensing or knowing how physically close you should be in relation to another
• Disregarding your personal values in order to please others
• Ignoring another person’s display of poor boundaries or invasion of your boundaries
• Sharing too much personal information with someone you don’t know well [Or with someone you know well cannot be trusted not to do harm with personal information.]
• Accepting food, gifts, touch, or sex that you don’t want
• Falling in love with a new acquaintance
• Excessive giving or taking
• Obsessive thinking about another person
• Letting others describe you or your reality
• Acting on the first sexual impulse
• Expecting others to anticipate and fulfill your needs
• Being sexual for your partner and not yourself
• Manipulative behaviors, abusive behaviors, etc.
• Disregarding your personal values in order to please others

Example: An adult child with a BPD father has moved her elderly father into her home in order to care for him. She feels completely responsible for her father's happiness, and rage and frustration at her father's continual complaints despite making enormous sacrifices to help him. She has remodeled her home to give her father comfortable quarters, let go of the hobbies and friends she used to enjoy in order to transport her father to all of his medical appointments, and has accepted her father's vision of her as incompetent, selfish, and ungrateful, while experiencing at the same time tremendous resentment that her sacrifices are not recognized. The two share a closely entwined life marked by hostility, silent treatments, and wounded feelings.


Both Have Poor Boundaries, But One is Getting Better
This is the situation many of our members here and the focus of this workshop. 

[blackandwhite]

So back to the picture taking example Gettingthere provided!

Quote from Gettingthere

"I believe that I can control another person. (This is what the action is saying.)"

Now i'm confused, how is the action saying i am trying to control her? In the sense that i dont want her to take the photos, then i guess, but i dont understand how stating that i dont want her to take photos is controlling? Please explain.

From what you've said about your mother, she was a clear boundary buster. (This analysis is not to get on your case, but to learn. You were obviously doing the best you could and we all have experienced similar situations here.  x) Using the "retroscope": At the time when you were trying to get her to stop taking pictures, you would say "I don't want pictures taken" but act in ways that allowed the pictures to be taken, as we talked about earlier. There was a degree of magical thinking in it...if I express my wish (which I know, I know! is brave enough when you have a BPD parent) then my wish will go out into the world and make my mother stop...my wish will control her bad behavior. In fact, it's possible that you may even have hoped your expressed wish would change her as a person, help her evolve from someone who would disrespect your wishes to someone else, to a mother who is sensitive to you, your values, and your point of view. (Speculating. So many of us long to see our mothers, husbands, brothers, sisters, lovers, etc. change in this way.)

That's what I meant by "I believe I can control another person." Perhaps it's better stated as "I believe I can control another person with my wish alone."

By not backing up your words with sufficient actions within your own control, you undercut your stated value and gave your mom room to bust the boundary. You seem to have been in the position I describe in the scenarios above as someone who had poor boundaries (didn't even used to say anything) but was getting better. So you were trying to figure it out, testing different things, and were able to limit some of the behavior but not stop it.  x

Here's what LVS has to say about how you might redo if you were able to go back in time. What are your thoughts, and those of other participants, on this approach to boundary communications?

If you rewind time you need to believe that:
You did all what you can or have to do with your mom
You gave her all chances
Most boundaries busters are close people to us could be father mother husband son or daughter...

So don't fall in the FOG(Fear, Obligation, Guilt)
Tell her when taking pictures will be ok (it could be once a year)
Tell her that enjoying times at the expense of the others' well being is full of selfishness this is not what the mothers are committed to be
We really want you to be with us have fun and enjoy the time together, we love you
Taking pictures is causing an issue if you chose to keep taking them it is like telling us you care for the pictures more than for you care for us
We do love you but you are hurting our love
We need you as a caring mother and if you keep showing us that you care more for material things don't be surprise when you find us not wanting you to be with us

B&W

[bpdfamfan]

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries been violated?

My relationship my parents became incredibly strained when they became a "package deal." The combination of the two together was like bleach & ammonia to me--extremely toxic.

Question: How what values did it violate? 

I missed having a unique, individual relationship with each one.
I resented the constant triangulation & drama that surrounded us every time we got together.

Question: What did you do?   

I requested to see them individually.
 At first I was told no.  We went for over a year seeing each other only in groups on special occasions (so rarely.)

Question: What happened?

As time passed I was asked to resume a more frequent relationship.
I agreed, as long as I can see them separately.


Question: How do you feel about it?

I'm glad I stuck to my boundary.  I'm able to see them individually & on their best behavior (& not just bringing out the worst in each other.) I'm also more relaxed & enjoy them both much better than I did before 

Thanks for the excellent workshop, B&W     

[Gettingthere]

Hi BPDfamfan, hats off to you! That's really impressive that not only you stuck to your boundary, but that your also getting more enjoyable time with your parents 

Yes B&W, i think we can clearly say my mother is a boundary buster!  I had heard of magical thinking, but never applied it in this context, which is really insightful, thanks.  Yes, in some ways i think i did think expressing a wish would make her transform into a sensitive being! In part if you try and point things out to her she gets defensive and victim like "i didnt know" so  i think part of me thinks well i've told you, so now you know to be sensitivie!  ;p

BlackandWhite Thank you for this interesting workshop
You said::
Boundaries as rules for other people don't work. Other people, especially boundary busters, break rules.
IMO all of us if we get the chance we can be boundary busters
Who breaks our boundary doesn't do the same thing with other people who keep their boundaries
IMO Boundaries as rules work if they are followed by actions

Gettingthere You asked for others opinion and i like to give mine since i can see for the others better than i see for myself

If you rewind time you need to believe that:
You did all what you can or have to do with your mom
You gave her all chances
Most boundaries busters are close people to us could be father mother husband son or daughter...

So don't fall in the FOG(Fear, Obligation, Guilt)
Tell her when taking pictures will be ok (it could be once a year)
Tell her that enjoying times at the expense of the others' well being is full of selfishness this is not what the mothers are committed to be
We really want you to be with us have fun and enjoy the time together, we love you
Taking pictures is causing an issue if you chose to keep taking them it is like telling us you care for the pictures more than for you care for us
We do love you but you are hurting our love
We need you as a caring mother and if you keep showing us that you care more for material things don't be surprise when you find us not wanting you to be with us

Is this make any sens?

LVF, you are not alone, ther peoples situations are clearer to me than my own 

Thankyou for taking the time to make suggestions. As i was reading through your suggestions, it struck me how closely this is entwined with being assertive - something until recently i have never been with my mother, its very much a capitol F in FOG for me.

The not taking photos is a boundary for me, so i wouldnt suggest once a year. Also i know that with this particular boundary buster, she would take it as a green light to ignore the boundary anyway.

LVF i think what you have written is "adult" and great for healthy people. My only concern is that if i were to approach it like this with my mother then she would percieve it as nothing but confrontation and critisim. I dont know if thats just her or BPD...saying her actions were selfish (i'm running to take cover at the thought of it!...)

B&W you also said "If two people have a healthy sense of self and good self-esteem, and are clear about their values, serious boundary issues aren't too likely to arise"

I agree wholeheartedly with this, and know that i didnmt even think nor feel capable of setting boundaries until i had worked on self esteem and self worth, which again ties into needing self esteem to be able to be assertive...

I am aware that my example is dominating this workshop and i apologise profusely to the other participants 

When dealing with boundary busters, it can sometimes feel that everything you say is going to be "busted" and its exhausting constantly stipulatng boundaries and consequences. How have other poeple handeled this?

[blackandwhite]

Gettingthere, you're not dominating, you're a case study!  Thank you for that.

BPDfamfan, let me add my   as well!

When dealing with boundary busters, it can sometimes feel that everything you say is going to be "busted" and its exhausting constantly stipulatng boundaries and consequences. How have other poeple handeled this?

BPDfamfan provides a good example of how to handle this. She determined that seeing her parents together led to trouble. BPDfamfan, I might attempt to restate your values a bit (maybe incorrectly...please do correct/comment) to positive versions:

I missed having a unique, individual relationship with each one.
I resented the constant triangulation & drama that surrounded us every time we got together.

Having a unique, individual relationship with each of my parents is important to me.
Having interactions that are free of drama and triangulation is important to me.

Again, boundaries = your value system in action.

BPDfamfan put those values into action by creating circumstances in which her values could be expressed. Her parents might have refused to cooperate, in which case she would have to weigh again her values, particularly how important a relationship was with them if her basic needs for the relationship could not be met.

Getting back to Gettingthere's question, which is one of the key questions in this topic: When dealing with boundary busters, it can sometimes feel that everything you say is going to be "busted" and its exhausting constantly stipulatng boundaries and consequences--how do you handle? Let's try an exercise.

Which of the following are under your control*?

*Assume for the sake of this exercise no physical coercion, which we've seen in some of these examples and certainly happens. Physical abuse calls for intervention from authorities and rapid action to protect yourself.

1. Stopping someone else's behavior.
2. Leaving a situation.
3. Stating your needs calmly.
4. Determining under what circumstances you will see someone (barring accidental run ins).
5. Getting someone to respect you.
6. Getting someone to stop "X" (whatever X might be).
7. Clarifying your values.
8. Accepting the consequences of implementing a boundary, including another person's anger or decision to end the relationship.
9. Getting someone to love you in the way you deserved to be loved.
10. Finding ways to get your needs met.
11. Changing someone else's mind.
12. Hanging up the phone, stopping texting, etc.
13. Ending the intimate part of a relationship in which you share your inner self.
14. Inviting someone into your home.
15. Accepting a gift.
16. Getting someone to stop trying to enter your home or give you a gift.
17. Getting someone to honor your privacy as you see it.
18. Making your private thoughts and things inaccessible to someone you don't trust.

[bpdfamfan]

Thanks for the  s
I just started formally working on boundaries after joining this site, and the example with my parents is the first success I can think of.  Of course our relationships aren't perfect, but they are easier to deal with one-on-one.
I still have SO MUCH learning and work to do when it comes to boundaries!
B&W you restated my values perfectly:
Having a unique, individual relationship with each of my parents is important to me.
Having interactions that are free of drama and triangulation is important to me.
Thanks to everyone participating in this workshop 

[bpdfamfan]

I'll try the exercise
 =under my control

Getting back to Gettingthere's question, which is one of the key questions in this topic: When dealing with boundary busters, it can sometimes feel that everything you say is going to be "busted" and its exhausting constantly stipulatng boundaries and consequences--how do you handle? Let's try an exercise.

Which of the following are under your control*?

*Assume for the sake of this exercise no physical coercion, which we've seen in some of these examples and certainly happens. Physical abuse calls for intervention from authorities and rapid action to protect yourself.

1. Stopping someone else's behavior.
  2. Leaving a situation.
  3. Stating your needs calmly.
  4. Determining under what circumstances you will see someone (barring accidental run ins).
5. Getting someone to respect you.
6. Getting someone to stop "X" (whatever X might be).
  7. Clarifying your values.
  8. Accepting the consequences of implementing a boundary, including another person's anger or decision to end the relationship.
9. Getting someone to love you in the way you deserved to be loved.
  10. Finding ways to get your needs met.
11. Changing someone else's mind.
  12. Hanging up the phone, stopping texting, etc.
  13. Ending the intimate part of a relationship in which you share your inner self.
  14. Inviting someone into your home.
  15. Accepting a gift.
16. Getting someone to stop trying to enter your home or give you a gift.
17. Getting someone to honor your privacy as you see it.
  18. Making your private thoughts and things inaccessible to someone you don't trust.

[LVS]

I am aware that my example is dominating this workshop and i apologise profusely to the other participants  

All of us had in our lives similar stories the hero and scenario could be little bit different. . Studying yours is going to give insight to all of us and it is going to be more helpful when we hear more suggestions even from people who are reading and didn't post yet...

As i was reading through your suggestions, it struck me how closely this is entwined with being assertive - something until recently i have never been with my mother, its very much a capitol F in FOG for me.

We all who had poor boundaries in the past were living the
FOG. Increasing our self worth and self esteem increases as well our self confidence and gives us more power to fight the FOG even more than people with healthy boundaries because we were hurt a lot in the past and we are the best who know what it feels like...

The not taking photos is a boundary for me, so i wouldnt suggest once a year. Also i know that with this particular boundary buster, she would take it as a green light to ignore the boundary anyway.

LVF i think what you have written is "adult" and great for healthy people. My only concern is that if i were to approach it like this with my mother then she would percieve it as nothing but confrontation and critisim. I dont know if thats just her or BPD...saying her actions were selfish (i'm running to take cover at the thought of it!...)

...When dealing with boundary busters, it can sometimes feel that everything you say is going to be "busted" and its exhausting constantly stipulatng boundaries and consequences...

In fact it's my D18 who inspired me for this suggestion
 (she has healthy boundaries)she is in love with a guy but my uBPDH doesn't want him for her and each time they have conversation he tries to show her that she needs to leave that guy.
In one conversation he said you are going to lose all the family support and love for keeping this guy you need to chose between me or him

She said "I love the whole family and i love my dad
they should love me unconditionally for who i am if you are going to delete me from your life for this reason then it is your choice not mine i am going to keep loving all of you no matter what your choices in life are going to be, it is true your decision is going to hurt me but this is your choice and i respect it ".
She impressed me in my whole life i wasn't able to think in this assertive and firm way wow

And it worked but as you said Gettingthere with BPDers or boundaries busters we need to stay on our guard. It's trues this is exhausting but also saying these words is, as B&W described it, the lock but we always need to stay on our guard and not let go things to keep our front and back door locked

In my H mind he lost a battle but didn't lose the war and for sure he is going to find another way and change tactic and try again...

We need always to remember that BPDers also have weakness points like the fear of abandonment so they will always fight to bust our boundaries because from their experience with us they know they can because we use always to keep our back gate open but when they feel they are going to lose us they will step back...(they need to not feel we have any fear)

[Mollyd]

This is a great conversation - and chalk full of many useful tools.  What I might add is a starting point.  Well, perhaps it was my starting point.  For some reason, until I actually embraced this starting point, I ended up wheel spinning ... thinking I was making progress, but actually it was more like one step forward, two back. 

The starting point for me was inspired by reading.  I was quite knowledgable about codependency, and one day was re-reading some writings on the topic.  The words I read, initially, bugged me.  I read something like, " ... being codependent is being controlling of others ..."  Now this irked me, as I really didn't see it that way, but I kept reading.

The author (who was Beattie, I think) went on to say, (paraphrased) people have the right to be as horrible and mistaken as they are.  The "art" of recovery from codependency is learning to get out of the way.

For some reason, it finally clicked to me.  I had been banging my head against this wall of trying to make the relationship into what I wanted it to be for years.  Thus, I violated the boundaries of my partner (by trying to get him to be the "best version" of him I wanted/needed ... to no avail, btw), failed to examine my values and ultimately failed to declare any meaningful boundaries for myself.

So, it was this starting point - recognizing that the "off" behavior of others was not my cue to start acting and trying to change things, but actually to GET OUT OF THE WAY.  That realization, and the practice of getting out of the way, gave me time to think, time to formulate the "me" of things. 

Hopefully that makes sense, and is somewhat relevant to the conversation.

Best,

mollyd

[Gettingthere]

She said "I love the whole family and i love my dad
they should love me unconditionally for who i am if you are going to delete me from your life for this reason then it is your choice not mine i am going to keep loving all of you no matter what your choices in life are going to be, it is true your decision is going to hurt me but this is your choice and i respect it ".
She impressed me in my whole life i wasn't able to think in this assertive and firm way wow

That is really impressive LVF, and well done you raising her with clear boundaries and assertiveness! 

Getting back to the control exercise, the ones i think that we have control over ( ) are
1. Stopping someone else's behavior.
 ;)2. Leaving a situation.
  ;)3. Stating your needs calmly.
 ;)4. Determining under what circumstances you will see someone (barring accidental run ins).
5. Getting someone to respect you.
6. Getting someone to stop "X" (whatever X might be).
 ;)7. Clarifying your values.
 ;)8. Accepting the consequences of implementing a boundary, including another person's anger or decision to end the relationship.
9. Getting someone to love you in the way you deserved to be loved.
 ;)10. Finding ways to get your needs met.
11. Changing someone else's mind.
 ;)12. Hanging up the phone, stopping texting, etc.
 ;)13. Ending the intimate part of a relationship in which you share your inner self.
 ;)14. Inviting someone into your home.
 ;)15. Accepting a gift.
16. Getting someone to stop trying to enter your home or give you a gift.
17. Getting someone to honor your privacy as you see it.
 ;)18. Making your private thoughts and things inaccessible to someone you don't trust.



I struggle with 6). I know that you cant stop someone doing 'X' but the wishful thinking bit can be very strong for me. eg DH dont do that cos it will result in x/y/z...bit i am working on this as i think this stops me doing rescuer bit and stepping onto the drama triangle

And 8...when i know the consequences are going to be someones anger...

[LVS]

Which of the following are under my control?  { } for what is under my control and  { } for what is 50% under control and { ? } unclear for me
  1. Stopping someone else's behavior.

  2. Leaving a situation.

  3. Stating your needs calmly.

  4. Determining under what circumstances you will see someone (barring accidental run ins).

  5. Getting someone to respect you.

  6. Getting someone to stop "X" (whatever X might be).

  7. Clarifying your values.

   8. Accepting the consequences of implementing a boundary, including another person's anger or decision to end the relationship.

  9. Getting someone to love you in the way you deserved to be loved.

  10. Finding ways to get your needs met.

11. Changing someone else's mind.

   12. Hanging up the phone, stopping texting, etc.

? 13. Ending the intimate part of a relationship in which you share your inner self.

  14. Inviting someone into your home.

  15. Accepting a gift.

  16. Getting someone to stop trying to enter your home or give you a gift.

  17. Getting someone to honor your privacy as you see it.

  18. Making your private thoughts and things inaccessible to someone you don't trust.

for number 11 I think i can't change somebody's mind because i can't controle the way they think but i can sometimes control the way they behave with me

but i believe we can't change anyone if they don't want to change but we can change ourselves and actions so i do what i need to do and if they don't change what they suppose to change i go to number 2 leave a situation

WOW i can see how much i got improved it is impressing i am so proud of my accomplishment in the past i was only having under my control number 3 10 18 hmmm pity on me

By the way Gettingthere i am LVS not LVF  

[blackandwhite]

Thank you LVS, BPDfamfan, mollyd, and Gettingthere for your recent contributions.

Mollyd, I'd be interested to hear more about your thoughts on "getting out of the way," if you have time to comment?

Thanks for participating the exercise. Most of the answers seem pretty aligned. LVS, could you explain a bit more about the items you marked as 50% under your control?

For anyone: What do you take from the exercise about boundaries and control?

B&W

[bpdfamfan]

Mollyd, I'd be interested to hear more about your thoughts on "getting out of the way," if you have time to comment?

I've been thinking about this ever since I read it & it has already helped be in a few minor situations! 
I'd also like to hear more, Molly! 

[LVS]

  1. Stopping someone else's behavior.

Still working on finding the right consequences at the right time

  4. Determining under what circumstances you will see someone (barring accidental run ins).

Sometimes i still fall in the obligation and find it hard to say no by putting the others ahead

  6. Getting someone to stop "X" (whatever X might be).

All what i need increase more my self confidence

   8. Accepting the consequences of implementing a boundary, including another person's anger or decision to end the relationship.

I am still working on that sometimes the FOG take over and makes me give more chances

  9. Getting someone to love you in the way you deserved to be loved.

I did so much progress in the area of codependency but still working to keep the back gate closed i am working to not care of how the others see me it is how i see myself i don't need to be the others pleasant i don't need them to love me for what i can give but for who i am

   12. Hanging up the phone, stopping texting, etc.

Fear of making someone angry or mad at me or lose this someone

I meant by 50% that i am still working on them It is about finding the right Consequences
and all what I need Build more my Self Confidence and liberate more myself of the Fear, Obligation, and Guilt
And i just remembered The emotional side play a big role of keeping me struggling