My annual Thanksgiving waffling.

[Think About It....]

So...for those of you who have helped me with this in the past, sorry for the re-runs.  I'm a slow learner...

I expected Ex to take the kids (S12 and D14) to her family for Thanksgiving.  They live a few hours away, but love having the kids around, and put on a great dinner.  I'm taking the kids to see my family, in another state, over Christmas, so I was prepared to agree to that, and I have a lot of stuff I need to do, so I would be plenty busy.

But Ex has a volatile relationship with her sister;  maybe she didn't get invited, or maybe she's mad at her sister and wants to punish her by not coming - who knows.  Yesterday D14 told me that Mom got a turkey and wants to know if we should all have dinner together, at "one of our houses".  (We live a few miles apart.)

Ex has never been in my house (moved in July).  I like that.  When we were married, near the end, she got violent twice, and then accused me of assault, which made my life hell for awhile.  So having her in my home has at least a little risk, though she has behaved well for quite awhile now.

More likely, I could make some stuff and take it over there.  I did that last year - just stayed for dinner and left - no sitting around watching football or anything like that.

I've told about a billion other members here how it's better not to do stuff like that - sharing holidays with a disordered ex.  But it will be a little hard to explain to the kids why I don't want to have dinner there.  I find myself thinking up weird excuses:  "I found out I'm allergic to turkey." or "I joined a new religion and there's an all-day ceremony Thursday."  Or I could accept, and then Thursday morning call and say I'm sick.  (But she would probably see me later at the mall and I'd have to come up with something else.)  I really don't want to make something up.  The kids know their mom has some problems but they don't understand much about that, or about what broke up the marriage.  They're doing very well so this isn't the time to talk with them about negative stuff.

Has anybody made this kind of situation work?  Or any ideas how I can gracefully decline and explain it to the kids?

[Matt]

So...for those of you who have helped me with this in the past, sorry for the re-runs.  I'm a slow learner...

I expected Ex to take the kids (S12 and D14) to her family for Thanksgiving.  They live a few hours away, but love having the kids around, and put on a great dinner.  I'm taking the kids to see my family, in another state, over Christmas, so I was prepared to agree to that, and I have a lot of stuff I need to do, so I would be plenty busy.

But Ex has a volatile relationship with her sister;  maybe she didn't get invited, or maybe she's mad at her sister and wants to punish her by not coming - who knows.  Yesterday D14 told me that Mom got a turkey and wants to know if we should all have dinner together, at "one of our houses".  (We live a few miles apart.)

Ex has never been in my house (moved in July).  I like that.  When we were married, near the end, she got violent twice, and then accused me of assault, which made my life hell for awhile.  So having her in my home has at least a little risk, though she has behaved well for quite awhile now.

More likely, I could make some stuff and take it over there.  I did that last year - just stayed for dinner and left - no sitting around watching football or anything like that.

I've told about a billion other members here how it's better not to do stuff like that - sharing holidays with a disordered ex.  But it will be a little hard to explain to the kids why I don't want to have dinner there.  I find myself thinking up weird excuses:  "I found out I'm allergic to turkey." or "I joined a new religion and there's an all-day ceremony Thursday."  Or I could accept, and then Thursday morning call and say I'm sick.  (But she would probably see me later at the mall and I'd have to come up with something else.)  I really don't want to make something up.  The kids know their mom has some problems but they don't understand much about that, or about what broke up the marriage.  They're doing very well so this isn't the time to talk with them about negative stuff.

Has anybody made this kind of situation work?  Or any ideas how I can gracefully decline and explain it to the kids?

[innerspirit]

Well it sure seems like your X is playing you, sending word about Thanksgiving via your daughter -- it puts her in the middle too.  I would agree with you about keeping your new house Mom-free.  You and your kids deserve a space that is fresh.
Is there some way you can just say something general to them?  Like "Mom and I split up because, (as you know,) there are times that when it's been impossible for her and me to get along.  I don't want risk that ruining your holiday, your time with Mom, so what I'll do is drop you off at Mom's house."

(Maybe you could offer to do something special with your kids on Friday.)

I dunno -- just my 2 cents -- maybe just 1 cent because (other than my X) I didn't have kids.

[DreamGirl]

Any other invites from your friends or family? I would just do that instead or even volunteer at a local shelter/soup kitchen. Tell them that you have those plans instead because you thought they were leaving.

We did a Christmas evening together a few years ago. Never again.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[Matt]

Thanks guys.

I do have other invitations, and I could volunteer;  I know the outreach facilities here have too many volunteers on holidays and not enough other days, but in the past I have done some different jobs for them, like picking people up and dropping them off - the weather is turning bad here - so I'm sure I could find a way to help.

The reality is, I have a ton of stuff I need to do, for work, and to winterize the house, so I will be very busy.  The truth is, "I don't want to join you guys for dinner but I'll be plenty busy and happy."

I'm reluctant to get into "Your mom and I got divorced because we don't get along" - it's not actually true, by the way - we didn't get along for many years but I never considered divorce.  The reason we got divorced is because she became violent and accused me of assault.  I have told the kids that, very briefly, but it's old news (from 2006) so I'm reluctant to use it as a reason not to join them for Thanksgiving.

I realize I'm wallowing in this.  I usually like the truth.  (It's easier to remember.)

I'll probably take the kids Saturday to the big city, just for the day, and then to see their big brother Sunday morning, then home.  So I would actually prefer to have Thursday and Friday off to catch up on stuff.  Going over there for dinner would only take an hour - and a guy's got to eat.  But I would probably take something, which means shopping and cooking;  in the past I've made the big meals on Thanksgiving and Christmas, and I expect that Ex is assuming I'll bring half the food...

[DreamGirl]

My therapist recommended that I quit doing just what you're doing. 

If you don't want to be in the same room with the woman who falsely accused you of assault 4 years ago? Don't.

If you feel like it's really not going to be a big deal and you want to hang out with your kiddos? Go.

If you'd rather just stay home? Stay home.

What does your little heart desire most of all?   

[david]

I went to jail for 14 days in September under false allegations by BPDw. S12 and S7 witnessed the event and seen that I did nothing. I explained to them that I thought it best if I didn't go near mom. They understood. When I pick them up at her place they know to come out and get in the car immediately. S7 used to play hide and seek when I picked him up and doesn't anymore. I was afraid my kids would be upset but surprisingly they are fine with it. Sometimes I pick them up at school and S12 wants something at mom's. I drive there ,he gets out of car, gets whatever and comes right back. S7 wanted something several weeks ago and said I could trust him and he would be quick. He ran both ways !

[Matt]

What does your little heart desire most of all?   

Yeah...that's it...

I'll think about that.  I guess I'm so used to figuring out what will work, I forget to think about what I want.

Probably, what I really would prefer, is not to go into her house or have her in mine.  A few times I've seen her car around town, and my heart skips a beat (and not in a good way).  Kind of like when I see a police car close behind me.  I have nothing to fear but it brings up bad memories.

I guess I'm just struggling with how exactly to tell the kids, "No, I'm not coming over.  I don't like being around your mom.  She has hurt me a lot and I wish I would never see her again."  (Maybe the key is to figure out when to stop talking.)

[Matt]

I went to jail for 14 days in September under false allegations by BPDw. S12 and S7 witnessed the event and seen that I did nothing. I explained to them that I thought it best if I didn't go near mom. They understood. When I pick them up at her place they know to come out and get in the car immediately. S7 used to play hide and seek when I picked him up and doesn't anymore. I was afraid my kids would be upset but surprisingly they are fine with it. Sometimes I pick them up at school and S12 wants something at mom's. I drive there ,he gets out of car, gets whatever and comes right back. S7 wanted something several weeks ago and said I could trust him and he would be quick. He ran both ways !

I was only in jail for 16 hours but I consider that "hard time".  It was enough.

I've settled into a pretty successful way of dealing with her - almost no contact but when there's something to communicate we do that OK.

It's these darn holidays that lower my defenses...

[Jbird]

Ugh Matt, that is a tough spot. I say talk less that is the key.  Sounds like there are things you would really rather do. So be confident in that. She really is putting your daughter in the middle like that. One of the therapists first rules for us was to not make plans through the kids. When she did that she automatically played on your "not disappoint my kids" button  ;p  Even when we are completely detached it still sucks. So short and simple. I love spending holidays with you KIDS, but I have made some plans I don't want to cancel. We will just keep our plans for later. It is honest and short. 

[Amberlee]

Thanks guys.

I do have other invitations, and I could volunteer;  I know the outreach facilities here have too many volunteers on holidays and not enough other days, but in the past I have done some different jobs for them, like picking people up and dropping them off - the weather is turning bad here - so I'm sure I could find a way to help.

The reality is, I have a ton of stuff I need to do, for work, and to winterize the house, so I will be very busy.  The truth is, "I don't want to join you guys for dinner but I'll be plenty busy and happy."

I'm reluctant to get into "Your mom and I got divorced because we don't get along" - it's not actually true, by the way - we didn't get along for many years but I never considered divorce.  The reason we got divorced is because she became violent and accused me of assault.  I have told the kids that, very briefly, but it's old news (from 2006) so I'm reluctant to use it as a reason not to join them for Thanksgiving.

I realize I'm wallowing in this.  I usually like the truth.  (It's easier to remember.)

I'll probably take the kids Saturday to the big city, just for the day, and then to see their big brother Sunday morning, then home.  So I would actually prefer to have Thursday and Friday off to catch up on stuff.  Going over there for dinner would only take an hour - and a guy's got to eat.  But I would probably take something, which means shopping and cooking;  in the past I've made the big meals on Thanksgiving and Christmas, and I expect that Ex is assuming I'll bring half the food...

I think you've already developed your message to your kids here.  

Perhaps you're concerned that your kids are worried that you are leaving yourself without any friends or family on TG.  Let them know you won't be lonely and forsaken if they spend time with their mom on TG, and you've plenty of other activities to do with them during the TG weekend.

[Matt]

You guys are good...

Yeah, I do think they worry about me.  D14 nagged me a lot about going to the gym;  I think they get "healthy living" messages at school, and apply them to me.  (I live healthy but could do better.  Going to the gym most days now.)

So...

"My Thanksgiving is going to be Sunday with you guys and SS33.  I gotta do some work Thursday and Friday but you guys have a great time with Momma!"

I got an e-mail this morning from Ex - first time she has told me directly that she doesn't want to take them out of town Thursday.  She actually didn't invite me to dinner, just asked what my plans were for the weekend, so I focused on taking the kids out of town Saturday and Sunday.

I'm really OK with this now.

Thanks!

Matt

[Jbird]

Sweet glad you are feeling better about it and figured out a plan that works for you. Enjoy it! Sounds like a wonderful holiday weekend coming up. 

[GreatDad]

I've settled into a pretty successful way of dealing with her - almost no contact but when there's something to communicate we do that OK.

It's these darn holidays that lower my defenses...

Matt, if you haven't made up your mind, and will allow me to toss in my thoughts belatedly, I have been coached by T and coparenting counselor in these situations to make decisions based on, in this order 1) what's truly best for S7 (fully recognizing, as here, it may not make a difference), 2) what is best for me, and 3) without any regard to how it will be perceived by others (including stbx, her family, my family, etc.).

If I read your initial post correctly, ex was supposed to take kids to her family, hours away, but due to relationship clash, that isn't happening.  So, perhaps feeling lonely (it's undisputed she gets kids whereever she goes, right?), and probably knowing what a helpful sap you are, she prefers for you to be there for tons of reasons  (lemme guess, she knows kids want you there, less burden on her to prep/clean, less focus on her as sole parent having to entertain/keep occupied the kids, and she likes your company (all that jail silliness four years ago, for just a few hours, and you probably got some free food anyway, why haven't you forgotten about it; I have; so quit your b!tching, in her mind)).

Based on best for kids, it doesn't sound like (other than them wanting you there), it's a big deal whether you go.   So, we finally get to think about what's best for you.   Only you can answer that, and you should, with all candor.  Kids need that understanding/validation, they are old enough, and to tell white lies probably isn't best for them.  T also tells me often I explain things when I don't need to.  Not sure if you are in that boat.  You really owe no explanation to anyone (including your kids), so consider:  "thanks for the offer, but when you/she told me y'all were going to [insert few hour destination here], I made some other plans.  Have fun and I will be thinking of you." 

End of report, do what you want to do. 

[Matt]

I have been coached by T and coparenting counselor in these situations to make decisions based on, in this order 1) what's truly best for S7 (fully recognizing, as here, it may not make a difference), 2) what is best for me, and 3) without any regard to how it will be perceived by others (including stbx, her family, my family, etc.).

These seem like pretty sensible criteria.

1) At this point I don't see that it impacts the kids a lot, one way or the other.  They do worry about me, but I can handle that - just simply be OK - without sharing Thanksgiving dinner with them.  And I worry about them, being with their mom too much, but I see them almost every day anyway, and they're with me most of the time, and both doing well in school, and happy.  So not a big deal.

2) Best for me is probably not to be around Ex.  It gives me the willies, and I don't think that's covered by my insurance now.  Or there's a big co-pay maybe.

3) Yeah, the only people whose views on stuff like this I am concerned with are you all, and everybody here is always supportive, even if I do dumb stuff.

If I read your initial post correctly, ex was supposed to take kids to her family, hours away, but due to relationship clash, that isn't happening.  So, perhaps feeling lonely (it's undisputed she gets kids whereever she goes, right?), and probably knowing what a helpful sap you are, she prefers for you to be there for tons of reasons  (lemme guess, she knows kids want you there, less burden on her to prep/clean, less focus on her as sole parent having to entertain/keep occupied the kids, and she likes your company (all that jail silliness four years ago, for just a few hours, and you probably got some free food anyway, why haven't you forgotten about it; I have; so quit your b!tching, in her mind)).

Well I'm a sap, but not that helpful...

It's not completely undisputed about her getting the kids every time she wants to see her family, but I've had them way more than the court order says (50/50) this year;  and I'm taking them to see my family over Christmas.  So it would be pretty unreasonable for me to fight her over taking them for a few days.  And they really like her family - it's a big treat for them to go there.  (Which means, whatever is keeping her from taking them, she's depriving them of that treat.  I'm tempted to take them myself...)

Yeah, she's made it very clear that in her mind, what happened years ago was no big deal and shouldn't be a consideration anymore.  She views our relationship very differently from how I do.

So, we finally get to think about what's best for you.   Only you can answer that, and you should, with all candor.  Kids need that understanding/validation, they are old enough, and to tell white lies probably isn't best for them.  T also tells me often I explain things when I don't need to.  Not sure if you are in that boat.  You really owe no explanation to anyone (including your kids), so consider:  "thanks for the offer, but when you/she told me y'all were going to [insert few hour destination here], I made some other plans.  Have fun and I will be thinking of you."

This is pretty much where I've come to.  I also often think I need to give a big elaborate answer, when nobody really expects me to.  It wouldn't surprise me if the kids ask me why I don't come, but if I give them a short and sensible answer, that will be good enough.

Thanks!

Matt

[GreatDad]

It gives me the willies, and I don't think that's covered by my insurance now.  Or there's a big co-pay maybe.

I know the willies all too well.  Better than fleas.  But, why voluntarily subject yourself to that?  We always say and hear, you can't control them, you can't fix them, etc. ad nauseum, infinitum, and you can only control your behavior.  Well, that means you have sole control of putting yourself in an willie-infested environment.  So, just don't do it.  You don't have to.  Free willy, and be willie-free. 

Yeah, the only people whose views on stuff like this I am concerned with are you all, and everybody here is always supportive, even if I do dumb stuff.

Not always, my friend.  If you do something bonehead, you will hear it and get appropriate grief.  Some dude on another post bought his wife's engagement ring after she hocked it the first time, and gave it back to her to reconcile.  And, she hocked it again, then asked him to get it a second time.  The good man had enough sense to say no, then, but he got deserved grief for his first snafu.  Sometimes support on this board includes tough love.  I may not call you an idiot on a board, but I'm not shy with PMs.  Nor do I want shyness from others.  Tell me when I screw up. 

Yeah, she's made it very clear that in her mind, what happened years ago was no big deal and shouldn't be a consideration anymore.  She views our relationship very differently from how I do.

Imagine that.  Minimizing as a form of cognitive distortion.  I see it all the time.  My stbxw's response to driving S7 (then 3 years old) after swalling Ambien in the morning, getting in a single car wreck, and a cop almost arresting her for DUI and taking son to protective services: (and I'm not making this up): "Well, S7 says you back out of the driveway sometimes before you hear the click of his seat belt, and that is more recent." 

This is pretty much where I've come to.  I also often think I need to give a big elaborate answer, when nobody really expects me to.  It wouldn't surprise me if the kids ask me why I don't come, but if I give them a short and sensible answer, that will be good enough.

Matt, this is why I was most inclined to reply to your post.  A lot of the great advice on this board relates to this, but I don't see a lot of this talk.  And, it doesn't just apply to dealing with others that are "rationality-challenged."  There's something about me, and I plan to explore it, and you fessed up that you are this way too, that we feel the obligation to give more detail or explain things.  Maybe to my S7 as part of parenting, but even with him there are limits, and with others, p!ss off.   The answer is X.  It's so much easier when you don't feel compelled to give reasons. 

[KHat]

I'm glad you've come to a decision that you are happy with.  I see that same struggle in my BF, in that if he can't come up with a good way to explain it to the children, he will get drawn into doing something he doesn't want to do.  I tell him that he's the parent and he doesn't need to justify himself to the children.

I think it's most important to be consistent.  That is what children do not get from the disordered parent, and what they crave from us.  Spending a holiday together could tell them that you and the ex might get back together, that there is no reason for you to do other things apart.  Even if you could get along amicably in the same room for a few hours, it may not necessarily mean that you should.

Good luck and enjoy the holiday yourself.

[Matt]

Matt, this is why I was most inclined to reply to your post.  A lot of the great advice on this board relates to this, but I don't see a lot of this talk.  And, it doesn't just apply to dealing with others that are "rationality-challenged."  There's something about me, and I plan to explore it, and you fessed up that you are this way too, that we feel the obligation to give more detail or explain things.  Maybe to my S7 as part of parenting, but even with him there are limits, and with others, p!ss off.   The answer is X.  It's so much easier when you don't feel compelled to give reasons. 

I think we (nons) second-guess ourselves a lot.  I know I have a running conversation in my mind, justifying every move I make, even four years out of a 12-year marriage.  As if she's standing behind me wanting an explanation for every decision I make.

My kids often ask "Why?".  S12 is a little lawyer, arguing with me over little stuff.  I often fall back on, "Because I said so." and feel fine about that.  I think he's arguing for the fun of it;  when I say the discussion is over he accepts that.

Stuff like this - not huge but worth thinking about - the main person I have trouble getting to shut up and get on with life, is myself.

[Gagrl]

I'm coming in to this late, but...

I find it extremely liberating that the house DH and I live in together is off-limits to The Dark Princess.  It's one boundary I enforce.  It makes our house a safe place.

You may need to set some boundaries for your own emotional health and well-being, and let some decisions fall out of that, instead of considering every in and out and other person involved or affected.  It's OK to let your own needs and wants come first once in a while.

[GreatDad]

Stuff like this - not huge but worth thinking about - the main person I have trouble getting to shut up and get on with life, is myself.

The same reasons that support telling a child, spouse, boss, sibling, fellow worker, etc. "I'm not discussing this further" apply to ourselves, with the twist being, "I'm not deliberating further."  Something I have noticed this year, in many areas, is the point of diminishing returns.  It's everywhere.  Like the guy who posted about how much to document.  Like proofreading a post before clicking "post."  Like double checking your draft parenting plan.  And, in virtually everything we do, we run this risk.  A dear friend of mine struggles over the most mundane things:  most recent example was when we went to a restaurant recently, with three kids and one infant.  He spent literally five minutes trying to figure who should sit where.  Hostess was visibly fed up.  Maybe it's a confidence thing, or a competitive thing?  Not sure, but I'm drawing that line a lot more to the left, and finishing earlier rather than getting overly diminished.  What's the incremental benefit compared with the effort?   Life is too short.  

This is all a far cry from Thanksgiving, but I do think this is a valid point, and would love to hear reasonable dissent.  
~GD

[Matt]

You may need to set some boundaries for your own emotional health and well-being, and let some decisions fall out of that, instead of considering every in and out and other person involved or affected.  It's OK to let your own needs and wants come first once in a while.

Yeah, one of these was, I do all the driving - picking up and dropping off.  So there is no need for her to be at my house.  There are exceptions and I don't throw a fit;  when I moved in July I really thought maybe I wouldn't give her my new address - make this an Ex-free neighborhood - but that wasn't realistic.  She has come to my house, but never inside.  I'd make an exception to that, too, if the kids wanted to show her their rooms or something; that may have happened when I wasn't home.  But I've never invited her in, and I feel good about that - not a punitive thing, or nasty, just, this is my home, and I get to decide what kind of person comes in.

So yeah, if I just go with my gut - I don't want to go, so I'm not going, unless there is some big reason - that would probably simplify my life a lot.  (But if I made decisions like that I'd never do my income taxes, or clean the garage.)