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Think About It... A person with Borderline Personality Disorder often presents with a characteristic relationship pattern over time. This pattern usually evolves through three stages: The Vulnerable Seducer, The Clinger, and The Hater. This evolution may take months, and sometimes even years to cycle through. In the later periods, the personality often swings back and forth from one phase to the next. ~ Roger Melton, M.A..
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Author Topic: Can BPD's/NPD's be dangerous?  (Read 4258 times)
LightAtTheEndOfTheTunnel
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« on: July 14, 2011, 05:11:24 PM »

I was reading today about famous people with personality disorders   lol at work...

I stumbled upon an article regarding Ted Bundy and OJ Simpson. It outlined these men possesed the feature of never owning personal responsibility, blame shifting, no empathy, pathological lying etc etc

Bundy in particularly came across as a charming man, had friends, was intelligent etc the same way our BPD's did.

The same traits our BPD's/NPD's share, reading more and realising that personality disorders are linked to psychopathy.. this got me thinking.

We have seen our partners rage, seen them possibly become psychically violent with us and act very out of character.

The first time i saw a "rage" from my ex BPD we were staying in a hotel, i was expressing my frustration regarding lack of intimacy in our relationship and his scream really threw me off. While everyone has a right to feel frustrated and express that.. this was something different.. we were in bed at the time and he just screamed with his fists shaking, shouting at me, he then turned over and went to sleep.

I was shocked...this wasn't the man i and everyone else was used to seeing.. it was something different.

While reading up about Bundy on Wikipedia, they showed a picture of him "loosing it" in the courtroom saying how he exhibited how he could switch from cool and calm to out of control.

In England years back there was a story where a man was killed alledgedly by a hit and run driver, his girlfriend did a tearful press conference and alongside his family they pleaded for anyone with information to come forward.

Fast forward a few months and she was the lead suspect and was charged for his murder. She gave herself away in the press conference as she decribed "what happened" an officer noted on the videotaped press conference that she switched, from cool calm and collected to manic. The standstill of footage was truly chilling - the classic eyes etc...

So my question is... our BPD's... are they dangerous?.. Did they have the potential to be dangerous?

Sorry its a bit of a "dark" one

 
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harlemgurl
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2011, 05:54:58 PM »

I can't speak for all people who live with BPD but my uBPDexbf surely fit the bill.

In the ten months that my ex and I were together he raged at me twice. The first time he physically assaulted me and lit a lighter to my hair. Terrifying. The second time he hurled the most abusive, demeaning, denigrating insults ever spoken to me in my 36 years of living. The rages were always zero to 360 and felt like walking the red carpet to HELL.

The narcissism was always there bubbling beneath the surface with a couple of guest appearances but it began to rear its ugly head full throttle in the last days. In the end Mr. Nice Guy was GONE and Mr. Entitled took over: pitchfork in hand. grin grin

I currently have a RO in place and my ex is facing Felony and misdemeanor charges for the physical assault. The physical charges are the only ones that can be proven in court, but the emotional damage is what I really wish he could pay for in a court of law. But being that he has to live with BPD everyday I guess that'll be his "revolving door" karmic retribution until he gets help...if he ever does.

So to answer your question. Hell Yeah. They can be physically abusive. I thought mine would KILL ME or at minimum MAIM me for sure. He saw me looking at the front door and I'm sure in his heart that if he couldn't have me then no one else would. Hello? OJ!  ;p

I'm sure our prisons are filled with the emotionally dysregulated and disordered.

HG
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C12P21
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2011, 05:59:25 PM »

Yes, they can. Not all are-but they can be.
The best thing to do is to stay away.
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C12P21 "and she lived happily ever after.."
C12P21
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2011, 06:08:25 PM »

The other is this-if you read the article "Romeos Bleeding" you might take into account another kind of dangerous person. This person may not kill another-but will cause emotional pain and devastation to their victims.
In my mind-this is another category that falls into dangerous.
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C12P21 "and she lived happily ever after.."
GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?
This board is for members with failed or failing relationships that want to detach from their relationship and relationship wounds. If you are still analyzing the decision to stay, please post on Undecided: Staying or Leaving
All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)
cyndiloowho
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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2011, 08:46:22 PM »

My T suggested I read the book "People of the Lie - The Hope for Healing Human Evil" by M. Scott Peck.

I must admit, there have been times over the last 29 years that things my H did or said sent a chill thru me, caused my hairs to stand on end, caused me to feel a cold fear I didnt understand... Here are some quotes from this book that I highlighted:

"...the time is right, I believe, for psychiatry to recognize a distinct new type of personality disorder to encompass those I have named evil...this [classification] would specifically be distinguished by:
a) consistent destructive, scapegoating behavior, which may often be quite subtle. b) excessive, albeit usually covert, intolerance to criticism and other forms of narcissistic injury. c) pronounced concern with a public image and self image of respectability, contributing to a stability of life-style but also pretentiousness and denial of hateful feelings and vengeful motives. d) intellectual deviousness, with an increased likelihood of a mild schizophreniclike disturbance of thinking at times of stress."

"There are an enormous number of people in this world with serious and identifiable psychiatric problems who, in a psychiatrists eyes, are quite desperately in need of treatment but who fail to recognize this need. So they dont get treatment, even when it is offered on a silver platter. Not all such people are evil. In fact, the vast majority are not. But it is into this category of persons most intensely resistant to psychiatric treatment that the thoroughly evil fall."

"The central defect of the evil is not the sin but the refusal to acknowledge it."

"While usually subtle, their destructiveness is remarkably consistent."

"The evil do not serenely bear the trial of being displeasing to themselves. In fact, they dont bear it at all. And it is out of their failure to put themselves on trial that their evil arises."

"A predominant characteristic, however, of the behavior of those I call evil is scapegoating. Because in their hearts they consider themselves above reproach, they must lash out at anyone who does reproach them."

"Scapegoating works through a mechanism psychiatrists call projection. Since the evil, deep dowm, feel themselves to be faultless, it is inevitable that when they are in conflict with the world they will invariably perceive the conflict as the world's fault. Since they must deny their own badness, they must perceive others as bad."

"While they seem to lack any motivation to BE good, they intensely desire to appear good. Their 'goodness' is all on a level of pretense. It is, in effect, a lie. This is why they are the "people of the lie."

"We become evil by attempting to hide from ourselves. Evil originates not in the absence of guilt but in the effort to escape it."

"...to a greater or lesser degree, all mentally healthy individuals submit themselves to the demands of their own conscience. Not so the evil, however. In the conflict between their guilt and their will, it is the guilt that must go and the will that must win."

"...one of the characteristics of evil is its desire to confuse."

"All of us tend to be more or less self-centered in our dealings with others. We usually view any given situation first and foremost from the staNPDoint of how it affects us personally...nonetheless, particularly if we care for the other person, we usually can and eventually do think about his or her viewpoint, which may well be different from ours. Not so those who are evil. Theirs is a brand of narcissism so total that they seem to lack, in whole or part, this capacity for empathy...narcissism makes the evil dangerous not only because it motivates them to scapegoat others but also because it deprives them of the restraint that results from empathy and respect for others. In addition to the fact that the evil need victims to sacrifice to their narcissism, their narcissism permits them to ignore the humanity of their victims as well. The blindness of the narcissist to others can extend even beyond a lack of empathy; narcissists may not "see" others at all."

I know that EVIL is a harsh word. But, for me, this book shouted TRUTH! It is what it is...no longer can I hide from or deny the severity or the danger with my H. I have actually told my H that "I dont feel that he even recognizes me as a human being with feelings and thoughts of my own."  He seemed shocked when I said that but made no argument against it. God knows Ive been the ultimate scapegoat. If there is a medal for it, I WIN! And, of course, the most frightening thing to me is the complete LACK of empathy and remorse. Chilling. Especially when it comes to things he has done to his own children!

Im glad you brought this up, Light. I wanted to share this topic after I read the book, but was afraid it might be too much for some to take in. But now its out there...
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WonderingWhat
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2011, 09:21:04 PM »

I am seeing a lot of people on these boards asking questions about certain behaviors or in this case, "potential" and almost seem to want to classify it in some way as "BPD." For example, I recently saw a poster asking about a particular sexual position and musing it was typical BPD behavior.

Anyone can be dangerous. t depends on the circumstances and motivating factors.  As someone who spent over a decade in Law Enforcement, I can assure you that being "dangerous" is not something that is "BPD" as well, not all BPD's are dangerous.

I've seen the most passive person's lash out because of extreme motivators - and that can happen to anyone.

Let's also remember that BPD's probably have some legitimate gripes about "nons" that they are in a relationship with just as in any "normal" relationship, there will be legitimate gripes. My exGF had legitimate gripes about some of my behavior that bothered her. Perhaps the difference is that I recognized it as a legitimate gripe (and in some cases, I'll admit grudgingly so) and made efforts to change that behavior.  I spent most of ten years as a single guy running my own business - it didn't matter what time I went to bed and often used that late night quiet time to work. Years of shift work interfered with my circadian rhythms as well.

But to my non-shift working experienced GF, going to bed at 3AM was a legitimate gripe for her. However, her interpretation of it was incorrect quite often, with accusations of "on-line chatting" etc (which I just don't do).

I also have to give her credit too - she was, when she was in her "white mode" understanding of my sleep issues and did take the time to realize that I wasn't a freak or something; that this was an issue with former and present shift workers.

 I did work on this - perhaps it is something I could have worked harder on, which might have at least reduced one behavior that she could key in on when she was in her black thinking.
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cyndiloowho
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2011, 10:45:32 PM »

Anyone can be dangerous. t depends on the circumstances and motivating factors.  As someone who spent over a decade in Law Enforcement, I can assure you that being "dangerous" is not something that is "BPD" as well, not all BPD's are dangerous.

I've seen the most passive person's lash out because of extreme motivators - and that can happen to anyone.
 

I take this to be a person of 'normal' emotional regulation who snaps under an extreme circumstance. With my H, his behavior has been consistently destructive and dysfunctional throughout his entire life (he is 60). I would not classify my H as passive, although most 'outsiders' likely would. He portrays that part of himself very well to the general public, but those of us who know him intimately know this is a facade, a lie. My H can be very cold and cruel. I dont think what you're describing here is anywhere near what my experience has been like in my r/s.

Let's also remember that BPD's probably have some legitimate gripes about "nons" that they are in a relationship with just as in any "normal" relationship, there will be legitimate gripes.

It is my belief that a "normal" relationship involves negotiation, understanding of one another's points of view, compassion for each other's vulnerabilities, and compromise with regards to mutual wants, needs, and desires. What is required, in that scenario, and what is lacking in my r/s, is empathy and respect. My H has never recognized my wants, needs, or desires. He doesnt even 'see' me as a person who has feelings. When I speak of what I want or need, to him its as if Im speaking in tongues. He goes blank, cannot comprehend.

Perhaps, in your r/s, you are one of the lucky ones if your wife has a milder disorder. In that case, "evil" may seem quite a stretch. But in my r/s, I am having to deal with the effects of long term trauma from exactly the behaviors described in my earlier post. And from the many anguished posts I have read, I think "evil" is not such a huge stretch to them either.
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« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2011, 11:22:02 PM »

My exBPD waif tried to strangle her ex before me and had a restraining order never to go near her again.  With me she was very waif - victim and I can't imagine her being violent - she also takes an antipsychotic -  but I always wonder if a violent streak is still in her somewhere...
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WonderingWhat
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« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2011, 11:34:45 PM »

cyndiloowho,

I hear what you are saying. In thinking about it, I guess "dangerous" can be taken subjectively - and I was thinking "dangerous" as in serious physical maiming or killing. I am not sure if my xGF would ever have tried to kill me or seriously hurt me physically - and I don't believe her intent was to inflict emotional abuse - although she did.

And having said that, she did hit me on three different occasions. One time, she split my bottom lip.

At the same time, I've seen some other generalizations here on the boards that could probably be behaviors many might engage in. We all have our quirks - it's part of what makes us, us.
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Overcomingbpd
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« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2011, 11:46:21 PM »

I can not say all BPs are but mine was. His T. told me he was dangerous. Turns out his T. was right.
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cyndiloowho
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« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2011, 11:54:32 PM »

I think that when we think 'dangerous' we think 'physical'. Beatings, maiming, torture. But, as I know firsthand, and Ive read on so many other posts, emotional abuse can be just as traumatizing, just as tortuous, just as dangerous. Abuse = Dangerous, whether physical or emotional. In fact, I feel its more difficult to deal with emotional abuse because it is subjective, but no less demeaning to those of us who've had to suffer through it. And since others cannot "see" the abuse, its difficult to explain. I was refused help from a woman's shelter recently because they couldnt understand my emotional fears!

But if you notice the quotes from the book, no where in this book is he talking about violence. Dr Peck is telling us that you dont have to be Charles Manson of Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy to be evil. For me, this realization of TRUTH has been a real wake up call  Thought

Its the games that torture. Lies. Deceit. Gaslighting. Scapegoating. Blame shifting. Name calling. Disregard. Disrespect. Betrayal. But the most frightening aspect to me has been the complete LACK of remorse or empathy. Its like that disease people have where they dont feel pain. Well, thats bad because they cant know when they need a doctor or are hurting themselves. Well, if a person cant feel empathy or remorse, they have no 'gauge' on how NOT to hurt people. No respect. No regard. No matter. Thats scary and dangerous!
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catnap
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« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2011, 12:18:57 AM »

Quote
The first time i saw a "rage" from my ex BPD we were staying in a hotel, i was expressing my frustration regarding lack of intimacy in our relationship and his scream really threw me off. While everyone has a right to feel frustrated and express that.. this was something different.. we were in bed at the time and he just screamed with his fists shaking, shouting at me, he then turned over and went to sleep.

I was shocked...this wasn't the man i and everyone else was used to seeing.. it was something different.

I can imagine that was a totally frightening experience.  Could it be that you briefly saw the mask completely off? 

My son said the one time she was totally off the charts raging and for a brief second he was looking at the eyes of something that was devoid of any thing resembling a human.  A deep dark abyss of hell.

To he original question, yes they are very capable of physically hurting you and inflicting deep emotional pain. If threatened (abandonment, etc) they are more likely to harm.  Even if they have been passive in the past. 
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luckystrikes
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« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2011, 02:01:49 AM »

sure, as plenty of stories here would attest to, pwBPD and NPD can be dangerous. if they're of the suicidal, or stalking, or physically abusive, perhaps even verbally abusive variety, i think that qualifies. i think the likes of ted bundy and oj simpson are VERY different categories, especially ted bundy. from everything i know about ted bundy (which is a fair amount) he's a sociopath. neither BPD nor NPD should be confused with sociopathy. can there be an overlap of traits? sure. not to mention bundy had a very troubled childhood. but pwBPD and NPD are generally not serial killers.
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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2011, 03:26:12 AM »

For some reason I always got the feeling that my exBPDgf wanted to be good to me for the most part, but didn't know how.
It reminds of a strange episode. She missed an important appointment with me. Afterwards she didn't apologize or showed remorse. A few weeks later, when we passed the place where we had the appointment, she said she wanted to enter. We did. She sat in a chair and said, "Now I understand why you were angry, I am sorry".
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Mystic
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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2011, 07:11:18 AM »

And this begs the question:

How many of us saw our ex's throw or smash things, punch walls or other objects. 

How many of us were physically assaulted by our BPD ex?

Raises hand...

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« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2011, 08:57:33 AM »

I think that anyone is capable of being a physical threat. Some people have anger management issues and don't seek therapy. But Bundy and Simpson were sociopaths. There's been many posts in this forum describing instances of physical abuse.
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LightAtTheEndOfTheTunnel
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« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2011, 09:11:46 AM »

I have a reply that i was typing last night then our internet went down, i will post later  Doing the right thing
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Munch
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« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2011, 09:19:56 AM »

I never thought so before.  He used to be passive agressive rather than raging.  Anyways, the tables have turned and now he does rage and it's scary to me.  His ranting is very repetitive and not thoughtful at all.  When I am really mad the adrenaline makes me articulate my feelings very well and I always remember what I have said or done.  angel   He doesn't.  That is really scary for me and indicates some kind of dissassociation or psychotic elements.  He then reconstructs the whole episode and blames me of course.  So now I am keeping things really low key until he leaves.  I have to convince him he is better off alone for now and that I need some space to handle my own issues.  I am not looking forward to this transition.  Oh Brother.  Thank God the children are grown adults and there are no custody or other huge issues.

But yes, I am not as convinced he is incapable of something more than just raging.  I just don't fully know what is going on in there?

Munchxo
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cyndiloowho
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« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2011, 09:26:42 AM »

I feel my H is dangerous because he HAS hurt me, he DOES hurt me, and he WILL hurt me again if I dont get out soon. I have the trauma triggers to show for it. And he will never show any remorse or empathy for what he's done. He continues on, as if nothing bad has ever happened, and the kids and I are the ones with all the scars!

For me, Dr Peck's diagnostic criteria for naming evil was spot on with regard to my H. For years I continued to believe that the "good" persona my H would eventually get to was was his "normal" or "real" self. Now the blinders are off and I have come to see the truth. The "good/normal" is the facade -the lie. I think my H wants very much to feel normal, and he puts forth a lot of effort to appear that way. But he can never sustain that behavior. The truth always comes out, and then the monster, Mr Hyde, returns. And I am very much afraid of him!

Its frustrating to feel that others dont see a person as dangerous if they arent physically attacking you. But if my daughter were involved with a man who whittled away her self esteem, played games with her feelings, kept her constantly off-balance, degraded and dismissed her, made her feel afraid... I would consider him to be dangerous to her and do my best to get her away from him!
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Mystic
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« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2011, 09:41:02 AM »

I continue over and over again to be amazed at the way I see the same scenarios and nuances of these r/s played out over and over again, sometimes verbatim.  

In the Peck article quoted above, the business of a person's concern with "looking good as opposed to being good".  I had used the same words in one of my last emails to my ex.  In the Romeo's Bleeding article the controller/abuser's state that they had the "right" to commit (insert inappropriate/emotionally brutal behavior here)...my ex had said the exact same thing...he had a "right" to leave.  Well hell's bells, his right to leave was never disputed, but my (basic human moral) right to be treated with honesty, decency and respect,to not be raged at or emotionally abused obviously was.  

I see again and again and again the same scenarios, and the Romeo's Bleeding article states:

In over twenty year's work as a therapist, one of the eeriest experiences has been in listening to clients describing control-obsessed parents or partners. It is as if many of the people I have counseled had the same mother, father or relationship partner, stamped out of a small collection of similar molds. Or that all control-obsessed individuals took the same set of courses at Controller College - some with a specialty in narcissistic personality, others in being sociopathic and still others in sadistic or borderline psychopathology. The behaviors and attitudes of each type are so astonishingly similar, it seems as if they must all belong to the same bowling team.
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