SD13 wants a custody change - thoughts?

[Think About It....]

But not much can be done once the parties agreed to the terms because the judge herself ruled that the children belong with the mother and not the current circumstances.

I'm not sure if this is true or not.

Legally I'm sure it is true, and in most cases surely it's best to abide by the court order.

When there is damage to the kids, I'm not sure the court order will be enforced.  You can at least do what you think is right - which may include reducing the time the kids have to spend with the disordered parent - and let the chips fall where they may.  I have never heard of a parent being punished for spending more time with the kids, in order to minimize the time the kids had to spend in the custody of an abusive parent.

Courts are slow to act.  For us law-abiding types, that's bad, because we want court orders to be taken seriously.  But in a situation like this - where the court order is harming the kids - it may be a good thing.  Do what you believe is right and let the court decide - over time...

[Matt]

But not much can be done once the parties agreed to the terms because the judge herself ruled that the children belong with the mother and not the current circumstances.

I'm not sure if this is true or not.

Legally I'm sure it is true, and in most cases surely it's best to abide by the court order.

When there is damage to the kids, I'm not sure the court order will be enforced.  You can at least do what you think is right - which may include reducing the time the kids have to spend with the disordered parent - and let the chips fall where they may.  I have never heard of a parent being punished for spending more time with the kids, in order to minimize the time the kids had to spend in the custody of an abusive parent.

Courts are slow to act.  For us law-abiding types, that's bad, because we want court orders to be taken seriously.  But in a situation like this - where the court order is harming the kids - it may be a good thing.  Do what you believe is right and let the court decide - over time...

[marlo6277]

yes, this is the difficulty as you stated.  It takes YEARS for it to be undone.  And given the age of the children now, in 2 more years, they will all be in high school...By then, other things may have come up.  It's just how it goes...it takes forever for stuff to be processed in the courts and that's why it's best to have the parents agree outside of court.  But again, we all know that it's difficult to have parents agree when there is such strife.

I hear all that you are saying - I was making a point about how long it takes to undo these things once they are set in stone.

And doing what we believe is right - having mom see the children less - would be undermined by the law itself, since the police would enforce the order that both parties agreed to...

It really is best to act before an order is made.  And to really weigh all the terms of the agreement before submitting it for order.

[KHat]

I'm fine, thanks for asking.  But maybe because that's only because it's only SD13, and only because we're talking about a far-off possible date.  I'm also considering a job change myself, and when BF asks how we'll shuttle SD13 to and from activities, I say we can figure it out when the time comes, maybe I'll get a part-time job instead (which would require that he and I be married and I be on his health insurance).  I guess I thought that this would be part of a planned process, not a dramatic dump.  Guess that goes to show what I've learned in the last 18 months or so of being in a relationship with a man with a disordered ex-spouse.

Frankly, one of the things that makes this easier is that I have my own son.  If something happened at his father's house and he begged me to live with me, and his dad gave his blessing, I'd want my BF to be welcoming and flexible and able to keep an open mind.  I think I've also made good strides in my relationships with both his daughters - even though there are still things that both of them do that drive me NUTS - I think we're finally at the point where we are all more likely to give each other the benefit of the doubt rather than get all bent out of shape at something.  Yes, transitions are always hard and they come back every week with those loyalty binds stronger than when they left, but it's pretty easy for us to find our grooves again.  And I don't feel like we're trying to "woo" them; we just give them time to readjust to the dynamics of our household.

Honestly, I think that the possibility of it really hasn't hit me yet.  I really don't think that her mom would EVER give up custody and I don't know to what lengths BF would go to fight it in court, having been told by everyone in the legal industry that he wouldn't have a chance in hell of winning unless she had some kind of drug or abuse record.  It's easy to agree to something you think will never happen, isn't it?  

The legal maneuverings, as you know, are different from state to state.  Here, we have been told, that the court would NEVER allow him custody if he and I are living together unmarried.  Well, we can't get married until his divorce is final.  And if you're saying that finalizing the divorce is codifying the custody arrangement (which was made as part of their separation agreement and is supposedly considered final even without the divorce decree) that will be very hard to overturn, then bam, we're back at square one and asking for trouble.  It's a vicious circle.  Sometimes it's very hard to know whether to take the advice of an attorney familiar with family court in our jurisdiction, or people here who have been through this with a disordered ex.

Now I just have to figure out how to bring him the experiences of others and let him decide whether BM is really as sick as he likes to believe that she is when she's at her worst ...

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[Matt]

Sometimes it's very hard to know whether to take the advice of an attorney familiar with family court in our jurisdiction, or people here who have been through this with a disordered ex.

Probably both, and neither.  It would be best if you consulted with an attorney in your area who has experience dealing with someone who has BPD.

I'm sorry but I don't remember if you, BF and the attorney have read "Splitting"?

[KHat]

I haven't read "Splitting" and neither has my BF.  The lawyer has barely read anything related to this case.  I worked for a state supreme court for 14 years and can say that BF's lawyer is absolutely horrible, even though he's the law partner of one of BF's best friends.  If BF pursues custody of SD13 in court, it will be with another lawyer.

We have read "Understanding the Borderline Mother;" I own a copy.  But you're right, she is undiagnosed.  We've been focusing on her behaviors, not any diagnosis.  She has been working with the same therapist for decades even though she hasn't seen her in person in many years, one who, according to BF, enables her victim mentality and blame of others.

Maybe I'll look into buying yet another book.  How do you think it will help?

[Matt]

"Splitting" is written by a lawyer, William A. Eddy, whose web site also has lots of good information.  He focuses on high-conflict legal cases and how they are different.  "Splitting" specifically deals with divorce and custody cases involving someone who has BPD or NPD (narcissistic personality disorder).

Eddy says that these are "blamers" who behave differently than most people in these cases, so you have to have a different approach.  An attorney who has a lot of experience might be great for most cases but clueless in a case like this;  he's likely to keep trying what works for his other clients and never figure out that it won't work in this case.

[DreamGirl]

Sometimes it's very hard to know whether to take the advice of an attorney familiar with family court in our jurisdiction, or people here who have been through this with a disordered ex.

This is hard...

Also, Matt is very no-nonsense... where some of our counterparts tend to be a little more wishy washy.

During my husband's divorce, he tried to take the bull by the horns... and failed miserably when he stood before a judge at an emergency hearing trying to reassemble the temporary order for him to have primary custody.  She had pulled the girls from school on a Friday to pick up her newly released prison penpal who she was meeting for the first time and moving him into the marital home. There was evidence of drug use, leaving the girls alone by themselves for extended periods of time, the new BF's son was sharing a room with my oldest SD, and my husband's ex was diagnosed bipolar/BPD and had stopped taking her meds. The girls were 2, 6 and 8.  My H's lawyer said that it was a sure thing...

Not so much.

She had been a stay-at-home. So to the presiding judge, that seemed to be reason enough along with her lawyer arguing that my husband was an abuser and was just trying to control her. (Awww... hell hath no fury when you backed her into a corner). So my husband had the privilege of paying child support and maintenance (alimony) as the mentally ill mother of his children and her unemployed, convicted-felon boyfriend sat at home and "took care" of his precious daughters... and they were ordered to coparenting classes.

It was our own little personal hell on earth. I'm not kidding when I say that, I couldn't imagine how it could have been any worse... until three months later that she decided to move away to a little trailer 45 minutes away uprooting everything the girls had ever known. And again, her fly by the seat of your pants decision caused an upheaval of emotions and legal paperwork to ensure the safety of three little girls.  Being completely gun shy from the last debacle, my H ended up agreeing to the move instead of fighting it... with a quid pro quo of getting the girls every single day that they weren't in school.  And of course, being that his exW was a creature of chaos ~ the new boyfriend faded within 6 months and she was back in our town, with a new BF and a new school... and on and on I could go.

Anyways... my point may be that sometimes it's easy for us to listen to the ever so logical advice of others of what we should/could/can do. However I also learned the very hard way that in reality often judges are humanly biased, the court system is imperfect, and that poor parenting is hardly a reason to lose custody. SO, my advice - based solely on my personal experience - is that your best bet would make a decision, and then just get her to agree.  

Let her save face in handing over custody of her daughter to the more capable parent (because she so obviously wants to).  Give her credit as a good mom even if it doesn't feel like she is... we all do the best we can with what we've got and I wouldn't give her a single reason to have to defend herself.  It's Radical Acceptance at it's finest... and it benefits just about every single person involved but most importantly... the kiddos.

~DreamGirl

[ennie]

KHat--Good luck to you.  I just wanted to add a little about "Splitting"--very practical and useful advice about how to address issues and deal with different kind of divorce/custody issues with PD people.  The author has a reasonably compassionate tone, more interested in developing understanding, knowledge, and practical solutions than in painting the PD as the only "problem." 

We followed LOTS of his suggestions in my DH's various legal situations...and have not regretted DH's choices.  Probably the best things we did was get an attorney who is low conflict; true to the book's assessment, my DH's BPD ex had hired a very vicious attorney, and Eddy's suggestion to counter this by hiring the opposite sort of attorney has probably saved us $10,000 to date.  He just does not react to specious arguments.  He has 35 years experience, is really kind and thoughtful, and is very patient.  The only trouble we have had with him is that he tends to be totally useless when DH wants him to advise him as to how to proceed--which can really be a problem.  On the other hand, the few times on custody issue that the attorney said, "I really think you need to do something this time.  We need to file something," DH REALLY listened.  DH has used him for the divorce, for custody issues. 

But there are many other useful suggestions that Eddy makes.  I see this book as sort of a must read for entering court with a personality disordered person. 

[NorthernGirl]

KHat -- wanted to add a thought about SD9. I think one thing that SD9 will learn from all of this is that if she asks her Dad to live with him in the future, he will listen. Because he listened to her sister.

When SS19 was moving into his Dad's house, SS16 witnessed lots of his Mom's raging. She made all sorts of threats, threw SS19 out (even though he just asked for a change in the schedule.) But it didn't stop SS16 from asking to live with his Dad down the road. He knew that his Mom would rage, so he asked his Dad how to make it easier.

So I believe that sharing some of the discussion of what is happening with SD13 (that she is considering living with her Dad, that she is struggling some days, etc.) will help educate SD9 and let her know that her Dad is listening.

Just my view.

[KHat]

I just want to say first how honored and grateful I am that so many of you who have been in my shoes have weighed in here and sent me private messages.  On the one hand, you could say that this is not my decision so why should it bother me?  On the other, you stepmothers know the helplessness with which you struggle when you watch these people you care for try to find their own solutions, and know that all you can do is advise.

I see a child in crisis, and I see a man who loves her but who is not confident enough in his own parenting skills to stand up to the woman who has made his life hell these past two and a half years.  But I also don't think that he realizes that he is basically pushing his child into the same lion's den that he himself is too afraid to enter, thinking that a mother can't possibly destroy her own child the way that she tries to destroy him.

I've given him my opinion and offered help in finding a new, better attorney, and even expressed a willingness to delay the divorce (and by virtue of that our marriage) if it's what his child needs.  But I want him to start with a call to her therapist - she has an appointment today - to relate their conversations as well as what he overheard during the argument on Sunday (not surprisingly, her mom threatened to give away all SD13's pets, and while she said she'd be willing to discuss a custody change, she's also pressuring BF into agreeing to pay to enroll SD13 in all sorts of activities for this coming school year.  It's the equivalent of putting her hands over her ears and talking more loudly.).  Perhaps the therapist can help with some guidance.

I just don't think that BF is strong enough yet in his recovery from 20 years with a disordered partner to believe in himself and his parenting.  The only thing I want him to promise me is that he will parent from a position of strength, not of fear.  If he can do that, I'm okay with whatever comes next.

Thank you, everyone. 

[Matt]

Well I think you're looking at this wisely and in a balanced way.  You and other "secondary nons" have an extra challenge - supporting someone who is struggling, but not able to shove him out of the way and do what you think is right.

This may be a side-issue, but about the pets...they're living beings, and kids can be very tightly bonded to pets, and pets can be very therapeutic.  Do the pets belong to the SDs?  Would it be an option for SD13 to maybe bring one of the pets to BF's house - see how that goes - and then maybe one more, and one more?

This gets to the whole issue of "rescuing", which has a good side and a bad side.  The bad side is, we nons often try pretty hard to rescue people (like the person with BPD in our lives) who doesn't want to be rescued.  The good side is, sometimes there is someone - like SD13 - who really needs to be rescued.  Starting with the pets - showing SD that the pet is now a part of your family, and will always be taken care of and loved, even if there's an "accident" on the carpet now and then - that could be a powerful message from BF and you to the SDs...

[KHat]

This may be a side-issue, but about the pets...they're living beings, and kids can be very tightly bonded to pets, and pets can be very therapeutic.  Do the pets belong to the SDs?  Would it be an option for SD13 to maybe bring one of the pets to BF's house - see how that goes - and then maybe one more, and one more?

Trust me, we know a thing or two about accidents on the carpet ... we rescued a shelter dog last year and lately there's not a day gone by where he hasn't left us some kind of gift when we've gotten home.  I have a vet visit for him later this afternoon since he is now doing it in front of us right after we get back from a long walk and it's clearly not related to his separation anxiety.

SD13 ADORES animals.  She would be an animal hoarder if she could.  When her parents were together, she was not really allowed to have much in the way of pets because her mom was supposedly allergic.  When I first met her last year, she had two guinea pigs ... although I'm not a huge fan of rodents, it wasn't an issue, in part because they moved to Mom's house with her.  The pet situation is one issue in which Mom has dropped all the previous rules and gone for the Miss Popularity title.  SD13 got two more guinea pigs, and a few months ago, a kitten.  I'm not clear whether these are SD13's pets, the SDs' pets, or family pets there.  Also, her mom's male friend who is always there (but supposedly not a BF) has a pit bull that he brings over with him and there was some talk about breeding the pit bull and getting at least one puppy from the litter.  A neighbor has a dog that SD13 dogsits.  Guess mom doesn't have allergies anymore.

I'm not quite certain about bringing five new pets into this house, especially a kitten (I'm not a cat person at all and would never have one voluntarily).  Remember, we live 300 miles away from uBPD mom and most custodial weekends during the school year are spent up near her at my Dad's house.  We do bring the dog for them but ten hours in a car each weekend with an 80lb dog, a cat and four guinea pigs?  Another issue is that SD13 wants no expense spared for these animals.  Around the time I became reconnected with BF, he was talking about spending a few thousand dollars on vet bills for one of the guinea pigs, justifying it as the only pets SD13 has been allowed to have and being as dear to her as a cat or dog to other people.  Those bills, if they exist, are now her mother's problem.  I don't know what the rules would be about the pets if SD13 chose to live here, especially because I don't know if they are family pets or SD13's. 

I have discussed the possibility of fostering rescue animals or volunteering at the shelter with SD13 if she spent more time here, but frankly, we have our hands full with working full time and the dog we already have.  At one point, he was on anti-anxiety medication costing $100/month, and SD13 doesn't realize that his shots, flea control, heartworm preventative, food and occasional kennel stays also cost a considerable sum of money that would be doubled with an additional animal.  Our entire family room smells of urine right now despite our spending an hour each night with the portable carpet cleaner, and that is not the home that we want to live in, but he jumps our 4' high fence and runs away if we leave him outside, so tack on another few thousand dollars for an Invisible Fence (he has torn two crates to shreds from his separation anxiety, spraying urine everywhere in his fear and ending up bleeding from his efforts).  BF and I have had countless conversations about how to help this poor damaged creature and the sacrifices we are willing to make so as not to give up on him, so we are quite familiar with the message that is possible to send to children regarding a pet.  (A pet, by the way, that all the kids loved when we first got him and pretty much ignore and make excuses not to walk less than a year later.)

If we had to take the animals from her house, I guess we would.  I'd probably try to send the kitten to BF's sister's house down the road since she likes cats, and if SD13 were here she could care for the guinea pigs, but we are not in a position to take on more animals, especially without kids anywhere around to play with or care for them.

[KHat]

Just a very brief update on this.  BF wrote uBPD ex a lengthy email (I proofed it for him) that essentially said that he HAD originally agreed to her having primary custody, but then all these other things happened, and he needs to feel as if some changes are being made to get SD13 off the path that she is currently on.  He said that it does not necessarily have to mean that she live with us, but that something has to change.

He also tried to speak to SD13's therapist before her weekly appointment.  We were in the room on Saturday when SD13 was on the phone with her mom who said the appointment was Tuesday at 4.  When he called the office Tuesday, the receptionist said the therapist was not scheduled to be in, and that the appointment was Wednesday afternoon.  He tried telling this to SD13 and her mom, and they insisted it was Tuesday.  Apparently after uBPD mom discovered her mistake (and had already made plans to take the kids out of town, leaving their petsitting responsibilities to her male friend), she called the therapist and insisted on an "emergency" appointment on Tuesday.  So BF did not get to speak to the T in advance, but his speaking with her Wednesday apparently helped her understand some things better, as she never quite understood what the emergency was (the ex said it was Sunday's conversation in the car).  The T's impression is that SD13 is tied very strongly by the loyalty binds and is constantly torn between upsetting one or both of her parents.  Oddly, I've never seen BF get upset with her - he gets frustrated and impassioned, but not angry - but his ex constantly paints him to the children as an angry man.  At any rate, the T wants to meet with both the parents together to brainstorm how they can ease this source of tension for SD13, and BF is looking at Aug 8 to be up there to do it.

uBPD mom's response to his email was that all those negative things happened on HIS watch, which I don't get.  Yes, she did sext one pic while with us, to a boy from her new school at uBPD mom's.  But when she was with us last week and felt the urge to cut, and instead wrote "BAD" on her arm to remind her that it was not good to do, and made it through the night without cutting, uBPD mom claimed that she really DID cut and wrote that to cover it up, even though we never saw any evidence of any cuts on her arm at all.  And of course I don't know how the incident with the police car and hospitalization could end up blamed on BF, but I guess she found a way.  I didn't see her reply and I really don't want to, as it will just raise my blood pressure.  It's amazing, though, the compulsive lying and mental manipulation she pulls until BF goes back to doubting whether he knows his own child at all (especially while he's trying to get the kids to trust in his love for them no matter what else they might be "told").

I have faith that one day at least one of the girls will "get it" but I feel the pain for how much it will mess them up before that aha moment comes.  I think my goal is just to develop a good enough relationship with them that when it happens, I can help them sort it out.

[ennie]

This gets to the whole issue of "rescuing", which has a good side and a bad side.  The bad side is, we nons often try pretty hard to rescue people (like the person with BPD in our lives) who doesn't want to be rescued.  The good side is, sometimes there is someone - like SD13 - who really needs to be rescued.  Starting with the pets - showing SD that the pet is now a part of your family, and will always be taken care of and loved, even if there's an "accident" on the carpet now and then - that could be a powerful message from BF and you to the SDs...

This is something my T addresses often.  She is really into the idea of the "rescue triangle"--in which people in relationships take turns playing, in sequence, the roles of rescuer, victim, and persecutor.  She points out that "we are always in the rescuer role to some degree with children, and they are always in a victim role to some degree, by nature.  So you can't change that."  For her, taking care of kids is something where personal growth cannot change some of the role of adults in relation to kids. 

My values system is that we are all responsible for children.  Moms and dads are more so, but also so is anyone in a trusted and important relationship with kids--teacher, counselor, and step parents, too.  In some ways what makes the step-parent relationship most difficult for me is the fact that I cannot entirely act out of my own values BECAUSE part of my role in my marriage is also to support my husband in being the best dad he can.  And sometimes that looks like not doing something for the kids that feels like the best thing I could do for them as just a grownup in their lives.  Today, I took my 12 year old nephew out to lunch. We had a great time together.  I can really see how kids thrive with that one on one time, how meaningful it is for pre-teens to be treated like a whole person.  A special person.  This is something I rarely do with my SDs, because I often have both my SDs, or want to "save" that special one on one time for the kids to have with their dad. 

It is not just that I want to reach over and grab the steering wheel away from my DH when he cannot quite get around to setting the boundaries or making some hard decision---it is that I often choose to defer my OWN decisions so as not to pressure him or be dominant or take away part of what it is to him to be a dad.  For the most part, we work well together as a team, and I enjoy the lives we have together.  However, I often see things I have missed out on.  I do not want kids of my own, but it is hard to have kids and to be constantly pulling back from doing it the way I want to. 

How K-hat is going about this decision is a good model for how it might be having SD13 living with you...so many little things that impact your life that you have to gather as much info about as you can, see if it is interesting to DH, then step back and see what happens.  That is tough.

[KHat]

How K-hat is going about this decision is a good model for how it might be having SD13 living with you...so many little things that impact your life that you have to gather as much info about as you can, see if it is interesting to DH, then step back and see what happens.  That is tough.

The funny thing is that we finding ways to manufacture a relationship.  SD13 came back yesterday and was struggling last night with a lot of feelings.  BF was disappointed that she ducked his phone calls all last week to try to understand what was happening with her wanting to move and/or register for swim team, and she didn't feel comfortable talking with her mom around.  And of course, when she feels like she has upset or disappointed a parent, she is prone to cut herself, so she asked BF to take away her cutting implements last night.  He assured her that unless she cuts herself to the point that he cannot stop the bleeding, he will never call the police, and that she can always tell him what she's thinking and feeling, and what help she needs from him.  She is really beginning to realize a lot of her mom's manipulative ways, but then asks, "but dad, what can I do?" 

He said to me last night that he wishes she will learn to open up to me more; that he feels that I am a huge calming influence on everyone.  And last night, as he and I sat in our living room and I read a book while he was on the laptop, she came down asking to visit a website that people posted to about stopping cutting.  It turned out it was sixbillionsecrets.com, and they sat together reading things for a while.  It was helpful for him to see what drew her, what she identified with, and he was able to answer questions she had, like what anorexia means.  Once in a while, he would read something out loud to me, which I took as an opportunity to show that I had empathy and didn't judge the author.  In time, maybe SD13 will feel more like she can approach me, but I think that we can help that along by giving her exposure to how we approach and discuss and resolve things together.

I hurt that she hurts.  And I hurt that she knows that her mother has the ability to make it worse, not better, and that she feels helpless against that.  And I hurt that BF realizes now that she may spend a lifetime of frustration hoping that her mom will be someone or do something other than what she has been and done until now, and that will be a painful thing for all to watch.  But I take heart in the idea that we are giving her tools to move forward in life in a different way than she might have otherwise.  So that's what I hold onto.

[DreamGirl]

First, I don't quite understand the boundary: He assured her that unless she cuts herself to the point that he cannot stop the bleeding, he will never call the police, and that she can always tell him what she's thinking and feeling, and what help she needs from him.

Is the intent that she feel safe in sharing? or not hiding when she does it? Was this at the advice of her therapist?

I also have to admit that I've come back to this post about a handful of times trying to decide whether it's cynicism, pessimism, logic, reality, or what my problem may be.  Perhaps it's a reflection of how many times I've sat in my Stepmom support group and watched as the tears stream from a good-hearted stepmom who is hanging by a thread in struggling to keep her marriage together.  

What I definitely struggle with, though, is this:

He said to me last night that he wishes she will learn to open up to me more; that he feels that I am a huge calming influence on everyone.

I've been doing this stepparenting gig for a while and I see a common theme when it comes to the husbands involved. This fantasy idea that we, as new wives, are going to "help" solve some pretty deep rooted issues in the former family dynamic. Somehow we are going to bring balance to what is so astronomically imbalanced or that we will somehow fill a void or make something that was broken become complete again.

Every workshop that I have ever been to has Experts expressing just how much we are not equipped, required, or even capable of doing it.  In the end, everyone is left feeling let down ~ and our attempts to do so possibly making the situation worse then when we arrived on scene.

I've also read on these forums (and others combined) of just how significantly everyone is affected when a there is a custody change.  Statistically speaking - it is not usually for the better when there is a stepmom involved.

Again, I think my own pessimism may be coming into play.  I was once hopeful in my own situation of what my best case scenario looked like and in that the kids would be the best they could be without the influence (or at least less) of the disordered soul in our life. I guess now, I feel like it goes against the grain of Radical Acceptance that somehow their lives could be monumentally better... or even that they should be.  I've come to know some pretty remarkable souls who have endured childhoods involving one or both parents being disordered.  It's helped me become less attached to the outcomes of my stepkids an how they'll come out on the otherside of their childhood having a mother who suffers from this sometimes insufferable disorder.

So I guess I think that we as stepmoms should practice being less reactive to that which is sometimes "painful to watch" ~ I just don't think it's our calling in this life to figure out how to neutralize the affects this disorder can bring to each one of our families, even when it's the hope or expectations of our beloved husbands. I think KHat and ennie have it right in that we can offer tools... and hope for the best.


~DG

[Matt]

First, I don't quite understand the boundary: He assured her that unless she cuts herself to the point that he cannot stop the bleeding, he will never call the police, and that she can always tell him what she's thinking and feeling, and what help she needs from him.

Yeah, that is confusing.  Sounds backward.

I think what is usually recommended - and where I went with my son when he was drinking and "joking" about suicide - is, "If you say anything or do anything that suggests you might hurt yourself, I will call 911."

Where I live, what that means is that the police come and take him to "suicide watch" - 24 hours in a room with nothing - not even clothes - and a clear wall so he can be observed.  That happened, and he didn't like it.

The idea is, I love him and don't want him to hurt himself, and I also do not want to be manipulated by him - consciously or unconsciously.  I do not want to reinforce his behavior - threats or jokes or actual acts - by reacting to him - engaging in the drama.  So I will call 911 and let the chips fall where they may.

I did it once.  He's been sober for 3 years now, so I hope it's moot, but I think he knows that if it comes to it, I'll do it again.  I can't stop him from acting out like that but I can make sure the consequences are appropriate and safe.

[KHat]

He said that with regard to calling the police and having her taken away, alone, in a police car, for self-harm, I believe.  I don't think he made any promises with regard to taking her to the hospital himself, calling a therapist, or anything concerning threats.  But I don't know since I wasn't part of the conversation.  I DO understand her reticence to discuss anything with him after her mom's reaction, and his encouragement that she can tell him things when she needs help without fearing retribution.  But yes, I also wonder what happens the day that she begins to try to manipulate him with anything as a threat.

I don't know ... to me, the difference is clear as to whether you call police because you need help dealing with a situation beyond your control, as opposed to calling police to punish someone else.  But it's probably not clear to her.

I think the important thing to remember with most of the stuff quoted is that he's trying to draw a distinction between what she's come to expect as the "new normal" at mom's versus how things can and would be handled here.  My calming influence is not that I'm all smiles and serenity, it's just that I refuse to engage in already heated situations, cast judgment, or turn a situation around so that it's about me, not someone else. 

DG, I get where you're coming from, I really do.  But in our home, I've taken a VERY hands-off approach, knowing that a) they come here for him and they should get a lot of access to him, and b) it's easier to gradually draw closer than to insist on closeness and then later pull apart.  I don't see his comment about her opening up to me as anything more significant than if a mutual friend said to me, "god, I wish my sister would talk to you; you seem to get this and know what to say better than I do."  Maybe we arrange a meeting and click; maybe we don't.  But I don't at all get the sense that he's uncomfortable in dealing with his daughter and wants to hand it off, or that he thinks I'll be a good replacement mom.  I think that he sees us as a team and wants his children to see us that way too, not pull him away from me and whisper something they're uncertain about how to share in front of me.  And honestly, I've kind of created that scenario, since I will often leave the room out of respect for their privacy if a child indicates that she needs her dad.

The bizarre thing to me is that as a CASA, I have the legal authority to step in and help a child whose parent is incapable, but I have none of that own authority in my own home with the children I see and get to know best.  That, to me, is something I often have to wrap my head around.

Oh, and a PS - BF's divorce finally became final this week.  Nearly 32 months in the making from the moment he asked for it until the moment the judge signed off, and full of concessions and expense, but undoubtedly, to him, all worth it.

[marlo6277]

KHat - I just wanted to send you hugs. x

And to say congrats on the divorce being final.

[Matt]

I don't know ... to me, the difference is clear as to whether you call police because you need help dealing with a situation beyond your control, as opposed to calling police to punish someone else.  But it's probably not clear to her.

Yeah, I think this is exactly the challenge - thinking in terms of consequences not punishment.

Punishment - to me - is striking back.  I think we punish kids sometimes but adults don't punish each other.  (My BPD ex punished me a lot and I view that as very dysfunctional.)

Consequences are natural and appropriate results of the choices we make.

Calling 911 when someone threatens to hurt herself, I would view as consequences.  When someone gives an indication that she may hurt herself, that's a dangerous situation, and it makes sense to focus first on her safety, and the most sure way to ensure her safety is to call 911.

If she doesn't enjoy that experience - and from my son's experience, I think she won't enjoy it at all - then that may be a learning experience for her.  When we get unpleasant consequences from our actions we can change our thinking.

I do understand your husband's view - he wants her to feel free to talk with him openly and doesn't want her to think she will be punished for saying something "wrong".  The way professionals handle this is, they ask very clearly, "Are you having thoughts of self-harm?" or something like that.  Give the person the chance to say, "I'm not going to hurt myself." and that's that.

Even though you have a CASA background, I don't think most parents are able to manage situations in which a young person is struggling with self-harm.  It may be best to work out some plans for that - what you both will do if she threatens suicide, or if she acts out in different ways - and let her know that you want to help her and this is part of helping her.

It may be important for you and your husband too:  Letting too much chaos into our lives can make it harder for us to make good decisions.  We can lose ourselves in the chaos of someone who is struggling.