10) Belief that they have seen the light.

[Think About It...]

MJJ: how long have you been out of the r/s? I know you have said you would never go back to that situation. How long did it take you to detach? that must have been so hard after all those years.

I hit rock bottom 1 year ago. I know I could not go on and wanted out of the r/s. Up until this point I never doubted my love for her. I never doubted her love for me. I could see that we had problems but expected that these would sort themselves out. My uBPDw was resisting going to see a therapist. 

We had one session with a couples therapist in Oct. I have never seen my uBPDw so out if control. She shouted and raged at the therapist. It was all blame at me. Telling the therapist to tell me my behaviour was not acceptable. Called me violent but the when asked had no example of any instance where I was violent.

I was convinced unless she could get help all hope was lost. The therapist made some progress with her but my uBPDw blame and projections for me were too big. The therapist could not prevent things from going legal, her making false accusations of DV. Considered reporting me for child abuse to damage my reputation and standing in local community. Thankfully someone talked her out of that otherwise the children might be in care.

We agree to separate in Dec 2010 and I was forced to move out of the house in March or risk my children seeing me in a police cell for further false accusations of DV.


I have an amazing therapist who held me together as I was falling apart quite literally. I remember those sessions so well and the harrowed look my thrapist would have on her face as I would share my story. I came here around Feb2011. Read SWOE at that time. After 3-4 months I notice that my therpaist looked about 10-15 years younger. I now realise that this was because I has found my way out. The intesity of the grief I felt had subsided to a point where I could laugh and joke.

My recovery is not complete by a long way. I am still very sensitive to conflict including legal mind games. I try not to take these things personally but this is not easy. I refuse to let my uBPDw know that the mind games get at me. I rely on self reflection, being in touch with my core values. I think just finding ways to have "fun" e.g. with the children, friend or family are an excellent escape from the over intellectualising about my uBPDw that I can sometime slip into. This "fun" recharges my batteries feeds my emotional self  and reminds me what life is all about. I am lucky that I love and enjoy my work. 

I can see my uBPDw and see that part that I loved. She has some wonderful characteristics. I now see the pwBPD that I never understood. I can predict to some extent her patterns. I cannot love her anymore. I do not feel safe in her company. I do not trust her. I cannot help her. I wish her well. I hope she goes and finds a therapist and I hope for her sake and the sake of the children she recovers from BPD.

I have enjoyed getting to know myself better. I feel I have grown emotionally. Being with a pwBPD prevents us from growing emotionally too. Recognising that I had some growing to do in this area was a help too.

I am open to finding love again but not just yet. I want the dust to settle on our divorce papers before I even consider that.

This forum has been a huge part of my recovery. I now recognise the codependency that we had allowed to develop between us. I recognise the part I played and how it may have prevented her from growing. If I had held my boundaries earlier she would have gone to therapy earlier. Our relationship may have been a lot shorter. By getting caught up in FOG from very early it was hard to see my reality.

I do not have regrets I think dwelling on the past too much can be unhelpful. Reflecting rather than dwelling is much better.

I can still feel the pain of my grief. I was given the priceless advice here not to wallow in my grief but to lean into it from time to time.

I have learnt not to feel or react when I meet with my uBPDw.  She alternates from two extremes. Sometimes she is waif-like looking to see I am still connected and at others she acts out, pulls silly stunts just to provoke a response. I try to show the same me no matter how she acts. I stay calm and indifferent.

I think this r/s and the experience around it may always be a part of who I am. I try not to deny what happened to myself, I focus on the positives, I look after myself as best I can, I try to act and speak with integrity. As we have separated I know that I am not perfect and that I have made mistakes.

Reclaiming you life it a wonderful feeling. The ongoing conflict of divorce intrudes significantly from time to time.

Realising that I am not alone by spending time has been an essential part of keeping  myself grounded. Spending time with friends I can support my children and give them the tools of self confidence, setting boundaries, judging people based on their actions not their words and providing them a safe heaven on on when they are with me.

MJJ

[MindfulJavaJoe]

MJJ: how long have you been out of the r/s? I know you have said you would never go back to that situation. How long did it take you to detach? that must have been so hard after all those years.

I hit rock bottom 1 year ago. I know I could not go on and wanted out of the r/s. Up until this point I never doubted my love for her. I never doubted her love for me. I could see that we had problems but expected that these would sort themselves out. My uBPDw was resisting going to see a therapist. 

We had one session with a couples therapist in Oct. I have never seen my uBPDw so out if control. She shouted and raged at the therapist. It was all blame at me. Telling the therapist to tell me my behaviour was not acceptable. Called me violent but the when asked had no example of any instance where I was violent.

I was convinced unless she could get help all hope was lost. The therapist made some progress with her but my uBPDw blame and projections for me were too big. The therapist could not prevent things from going legal, her making false accusations of DV. Considered reporting me for child abuse to damage my reputation and standing in local community. Thankfully someone talked her out of that otherwise the children might be in care.

We agree to separate in Dec 2010 and I was forced to move out of the house in March or risk my children seeing me in a police cell for further false accusations of DV.


I have an amazing therapist who held me together as I was falling apart quite literally. I remember those sessions so well and the harrowed look my thrapist would have on her face as I would share my story. I came here around Feb2011. Read SWOE at that time. After 3-4 months I notice that my therpaist looked about 10-15 years younger. I now realise that this was because I has found my way out. The intesity of the grief I felt had subsided to a point where I could laugh and joke.

My recovery is not complete by a long way. I am still very sensitive to conflict including legal mind games. I try not to take these things personally but this is not easy. I refuse to let my uBPDw know that the mind games get at me. I rely on self reflection, being in touch with my core values. I think just finding ways to have "fun" e.g. with the children, friend or family are an excellent escape from the over intellectualising about my uBPDw that I can sometime slip into. This "fun" recharges my batteries feeds my emotional self  and reminds me what life is all about. I am lucky that I love and enjoy my work. 

I can see my uBPDw and see that part that I loved. She has some wonderful characteristics. I now see the pwBPD that I never understood. I can predict to some extent her patterns. I cannot love her anymore. I do not feel safe in her company. I do not trust her. I cannot help her. I wish her well. I hope she goes and finds a therapist and I hope for her sake and the sake of the children she recovers from BPD.

I have enjoyed getting to know myself better. I feel I have grown emotionally. Being with a pwBPD prevents us from growing emotionally too. Recognising that I had some growing to do in this area was a help too.

I am open to finding love again but not just yet. I want the dust to settle on our divorce papers before I even consider that.

This forum has been a huge part of my recovery. I now recognise the codependency that we had allowed to develop between us. I recognise the part I played and how it may have prevented her from growing. If I had held my boundaries earlier she would have gone to therapy earlier. Our relationship may have been a lot shorter. By getting caught up in FOG from very early it was hard to see my reality.

I do not have regrets I think dwelling on the past too much can be unhelpful. Reflecting rather than dwelling is much better.

I can still feel the pain of my grief. I was given the priceless advice here not to wallow in my grief but to lean into it from time to time.

I have learnt not to feel or react when I meet with my uBPDw.  She alternates from two extremes. Sometimes she is waif-like looking to see I am still connected and at others she acts out, pulls silly stunts just to provoke a response. I try to show the same me no matter how she acts. I stay calm and indifferent.

I think this r/s and the experience around it may always be a part of who I am. I try not to deny what happened to myself, I focus on the positives, I look after myself as best I can, I try to act and speak with integrity. As we have separated I know that I am not perfect and that I have made mistakes.

Reclaiming you life it a wonderful feeling. The ongoing conflict of divorce intrudes significantly from time to time.

Realising that I am not alone by spending time has been an essential part of keeping  myself grounded. Spending time with friends I can support my children and give them the tools of self confidence, setting boundaries, judging people based on their actions not their words and providing them a safe heaven on on when they are with me.

MJJ

[diotima]

Thanks for sharing that. I see that it really is fairly recent, and it is also complicated because of children and having to interact with her. I wish you the very best. 
Diotima

[Schroeder's Piano]

In my case, after I left and we were apart, I continued to grow through recovery and therapy.  I would read the ten mistakes over and over and made real progress in moving on.  But I made the mistake, against everyone's advice including my T's, of contacted my ex with a goodbye letter, because I "understood" things better.  After I sent a letter explaining my feelings, she decided she wanted to us to go to back to counseling and think about a reconciliation. The topic of marriage was even discussed because things could be different now. But because she was in the first year of grad school, we decided to delay for 2 1//2 month until winter break.  But she said she had insurance through school and would schedule the appointment. 

Well winter break came and went with no contact from her.  Finally, I caved and wrote her in late January asking why no contact.  He explanation was she "just couldn't bring herself to do it."  Later she said she was stressed out.  So I said OK and good bye.  But of course she wanted to go back to counseling.  She scheduled an appointment for three weeks later.  But by the time we went, I realized she had just met only as a mechanism to alleviate her guilt.  She had already replaced me with someone else.  And the session topics became about me stalking her and why couldn't I accept that she just wants to move on.  She said that she was sorry about her behavior at times, which was a result of how I acted...HUH?  She also parroted another counselor by saying that she wanted to learn to live her own pain.  But, I knew that she already had another guy waiting in the wings and this was just a way to have the therapist agree with her.  It was hard watching her seduce him in the middle of the session. I guess that why she choose him.  She's had six therapist since I've know her, and she's getting better and better at knowing which ones she can seduce. 

During the session, my favorite line that she kept repeating was, "I did my best" or "I tried my best for us."  Which makes no sense.  These claims about doing her "best" are just ways of avoiding the responsibility of self reflection and the need for change.  After all, how could I ask for more than her "best".   I wanted to scream if you had tried your best, why didn't you ever drag your brother into counseling with you and talk about how he and his friends would routinely molest you when they were sixteen and you were ten. And why is it that you two are still sexually suggestive with each other.  But I didn't.  I just cried through most of the session, because I could see that she had clearly "split" and had already discarded me like an old pair of shoes that were smelling stale.

Why so much detail.  Because I went backwards, relapsed and lost a year of therapy and spent four months waiting for her to respond and thinking that she was moving forward like me.  All because of a letter, a few emails, one phone call, and one hour of enablement therapy.   My obsessiveness is more severe.  My anger and resentment (at her and myself) is debilitating at times.  My pulse will race in the middle of the day, and my relapse has negatively affected my work and relationships with those people who can genuinely care for me.

I did not have a brief setback from the point of my recovery and moved forward from there.  I went to the place where I would have been if I had not left a year and half ago.  A much deeper and darker place.  It is not just a brief setback...It's a relapse.  Writing that letter is similar to me inviting malignant cancer back into my life.

I see now that she has no capacity for true remorse for her actions.  Maybe regret, but no remorse for her transgressions.  She can't even handle the guilt of an obvious transgression, so her actions were never about amends to me, but just a means to justify her behavior.  My BPD ex in denial has limited capacity for remorse, empathy, altruism, or understanding personal responsibility toward others.   As a result, growth is not possible.  She simply went backward to a time and place where we never existed.  There is no way to ever see the light under those circumstances.

But the above are her issues.  I'm regrouping and trying to deal with the shame about the fact that I could be so deeply attached to a woman who clearly lacks the ability to love.  Why am I so damaged that I would devote so many years of my life to someone who had treated me in a manner that I couldn't even imagine doing to someone that I cared for.  So the healing has to come from within me.

My advice, is if there is any doubt, STAY AWAY.  BPD's in denial have survival techniques so deeply imbedded that it's not possible for them to see the light.  But also have compassion for your ex.  Seeing the light would require them to first see the dark place that they have had to hide to survive their childhood.  And if they do look at that place at a time when they are not ready and without proper guidance, the pain and reality of the nightmare could possibly kill them. So forgive, but do not forget the reality of the destruction inherent in almost any contact with your ex BPD. 

I was not a victim.  I was a volunteer, but the damage of the relapse is real.  SO STAY AWAY. Just for today.  One Day at a time.  One minute at a time.  Call a friend.  Go work out til you drop.  Go on another date, but STAY AWAY, because nothing has changed on the on the other end.

[patientandclear]

Wow, Elies, that is such a moving story.  Recounting the actual impact of the limited contact you had has the effect of making me redouble my commitment to NC.  Thank you.  I understand ... I thought nothing could feel worse than I felt after my ex initially ended our relationship so abruptly & morphed into a cold, irrational being I couldn't recognize as the person I loved.  But.  It did get worse after I saw him again two months later, we talked about the supposed issue he had pointed to in the breakup, he decided it wasn't a barrier, and he asked if we should try again.  I was open, I tried to discuss my real conditions (that he try to figure out what had happened & why it wouldn't just happen again ... I knew nothing of BPD then, wasn't sure what the answer would be) -- and his responses immediately stopped making sense, he pulled away, and had another emotional cave-in.  A few weeks later he was cultivating a renewed connection to his ex-gf.

Somehow that second round was even more debilitating than the first.  I kept feeling like I should have handled it differently & it could have ended up OK; that by setting some standards for how I expected things to go, I drove him away.  Because a big part of me wanted to accept him on any terms, without any standards.

I've been strictly NC for the past 5 months; he has reached out a couple of times & I've reiterated warmly but clearly that I really need him not to contact me.  It's taking a ridiculously long time but I have made a lot of healing progress during those 5 months.  I can only imagine how awful it would be if we were in touch, all the while he is plunging back into a relationship with an ex, and I were trying to subtly get him to see the light, want me again, etc.

Thank you so much for sharing your story.  I bet you actually have made more progress than you can clearly see yourself right now.   I hope it starts to feel somewhat better very soon.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for members with failed or failing relationships that want to detach from their relationship and relationship wounds. If you are still analyzing the decision to stay, please post on Undecided: Staying or Leaving All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[GreenMango]

The belief that they have seen the light got me a lot.  But true changes are shown through commitment and time.   That's the part that didn't stick.

GM

[WonderingWhat]

Never thought I would write this but- yup... they don't change, even after ALL the promises to do so.   

Interestingly, my ex didn't promise ever to change. She was always demanding change in me. In fact, there was one incident - it was the second incident in which my younger son was privy to and I did not want him to see or experience it. The first time there was such an incident, it got so bad, even after my pleading with her to take it "private" and not in front of him (he was six years old at the time), she refused and it got to the point where I had to "get out of Dodge" as fast as I could for the sake of my son. At that point, we were living due to some circumstances "long distance" and I had traveled to see her. Getting out of Dodge meant a $250.00 cab fare for me to the airport.

The second time when she erupted in front of my son, again I tried to calm things down, and persuade her to discuss things in private and not in front of my son (at this point, we were living together).

Her response to me that second time was, "I'm not changing you know. I'm not changing."

I should have listened to her.

[MindfulJavaJoe]

Actions always speak louder than words.

Comitment to therapy.
Appologising.
Accepting some responsibilty for actions.
Willingness to talk and discuss issues.

these are just some actions that might indicate someone was willing to change.

[oceanblue]

Actions always speak louder than words.

Comitment to therapy.
Appologising.
Accepting some responsibilty for actions.
Willingness to talk and discuss issues.

these are just some actions that might indicate someone was willing to change.

MJJ - this is a good list but I would add that the above items need to be sustained and not just a hook to keep the other person in the relationship.  As I was ending my relationship with my BPD, he offered to go to therapy (lasted 2 sessions), he did apologize for many things (although I doubt it was heartfelt) and he made more of an effort to listen to me which mostly meant at least staying still and hearing me although I am not sure he took anything in because he later referred to those times as the times I was yelling at him.  The weird thing is that I wasn't yelling.  I was frustrated with his behavior but I think he perceives any conversation that I have with him that isn't complimenting him as "yelling at him" so I don't take it personally.

At the end of a relationship, I think some BPDs will put in some temporary efforts to keep you on the hook.  It just goes to show that they do know what a healthy relationship should look like.  In my case, my BPD was unemployed and financially dependent on me so it was worth his time to try a few things to see if he could keep me going.  He even went on a job interview which is something he didn't do for 4 years.  But the reality is that, making temporary changes to try to keep the relationship going isn't nearly the same as "seeing the light" and owning even some of their own issues.

One of the things I learned is that my BPD eventually showed his true colors.  We recycled, things improved temporarily at times, but they always reverted back to the same dysfunctional cycle.

[mgl210]

Sounds like my ex gf/fiance in a nutshell...This most recent time of splitting. She did that. She claimed she wanted nothing to do with me, and then that if I wanted us to work out that I would have to be upfront with my mom about her...I was never upfront with my mom, because my mom didn't like her, for the pure fact that she had lead her parents to believe that I had thrown her down a flight of stairs..She and I talked one night, and I told her that I don't want to hear the next day that she regrets that we should never have talked and yada yada...Next day, I got a txt msg from her saying that exact phrase..She regretted us talking,that it was a big mistake, and to never talk to her again. Then fast forward about six hours later, she was texting me again asking me what I was up to and then how she missed me and wanted to work things out. We worked things out for about a record four days, and then she disappeared without really giving me a valid reason as to why she was leaving. Its been over a month since she's been gone. She told even if things didn't work out for me and her that she would always love me somehow...Im just wondering if its something I should be on guard about her getting back in touch with me even after an extended amount of time...When she lead her parents to believe that I had thrown her down those flight of stairs. We didn't talk for two months and then I contacted her. Please tell me what the heck is possible to happen between me and her..
<MGL

[oceanblue]

MGL - I can really relate to the way you describe yourself.  I also was raised by a mother who never understood me or saw my point of view.  My guess is that she is NPD although I only recently realized this.  Being raised by someone who is self-centered means you have to develop huge amounts of empathy because you always have to predict what the other person is going to do - a lot like walking on eggshells.

I think, unfortunately, at least for me, too much of my empathy carries over into my interpersonal benefits.  I tend to make excuses for other people's bad behavior toward me even though they really don't deserve it. 

Having a lot of empathy is NOT a bad thing at all.  But, if it extends to the point where you are a door mat and you live your life trying to please other people at your own expense, then it becomes self-destructive.  Pretty much any personality trait, even good ones, need some kind of boundary and limit.  This doesn't make you a bad person at all.  Drawing boundaries is necessary to protect yourself. 

You can extend empathy to your ex.  You can understand why she did what she did.  However, it is ok to draw a boundary and say the relationship is over when she is involved in any way in filing false claims against you. 

I always had weak boundaries because of my upbringing although I didn't know it until recently.  Learning about and enforcing boundaries has been hard because the people in my life don't expect it so initially they pushed back.  But, in the last year since I have built these skills I realize now that I am getting so much more respect and kinder treatment from other people.  I've also had to let a couple of relationships go and that's ok.  They are being replaced by people who treat me better.

You are definitely not a bad person although many BPDs will tell you that you are if you draw a boundry.  They are wrong - not you.  And they are not the ones who should define what a healthy boundary is.

[lastwave]

YOU ARE NOT WHAT SHE THINKS OF YOU...love that thanks BPDlover..

when my ex would rage and at times I would get confused and would say, "What are you saying, if that's who you think I am, you need to stay far away from me".

This is day 5 of my NC...I think my F/BPD/NPD friend had been dis-regulating all week and when one of her friends (male) asked me to go lunch without inviting her she flipped out at me saying I was violating her boundaries blah blah blah. The next day the same rant plus we need to separate our business dealings from our friendship we are too enmeshed and she is barely able to keep her yelling under control. I was manipulating her friends to get her closer to me...blah blah blah and this was pushing her away..etc...I felt like she was ending the friendship and the accusations were groundless. I tried to reason with her and explain my point of view but was told as she was slamming the phone down that I was angry and defensive.

I have spent three days trying to figure out if she was right...being angry because she wanted me to be a cash station, and hurt that she would push me put of a close friendship (I thought) of 18 months without acknowledging any of the positive things I gave her.

I am not the manipulator she claims. I am not a bad guy. I deserve to not be screamed at and while I am a little sad today determined to not to believe the things she said about me.

[GP44]

I think it is safe to say that until and unless this person takes the initiative to seek you out to apologize and take responsibility for how badly they handled the demise of your relationship, there is no reason to believe that they have seen the light? I take my ex's silence as a continuing sign that she has not "seen the light" and if she had, she would be willing to make amends. I'm not saying I was perfect or never made mistakes. I have taken my personal inventory and endeavored to see what on my side of the street needed cleaning, but if she had done the same, she would be willing to at the very least seek me out for a dialogue? I use her silence as the intellectual basis to hold to NC?

[Schroeder's Piano]

GP44.  Are you sure your ex is a pwBPD.  If so, then apologizing is very unlikely.  A pwBPD really has never learned to apologize b/c they are basically a three-year old in terror and shame.  Survival mode for a BPD doesn't include a real apology, because that would require introspection, which is well beyond most pwBPD.

I would suggest reading the posts from 2010.  Closure is not possible with a pwBPD.  Apologies, remorse, self responsibility...it's not that mine was unwilling, it was that fact that she was UNABLE.

good luck and stay on the board and read as much as you can and see if you identify with the stories and the thought processes that lead us here.

[GustheDog]

Would *you* apologize to someone who you believed treated you in a controlling, punitive, persecutorial fashion?  Of course not.  You'd scoff at the suggestion and be reinforced in your decision to flee such a monstrous person. 

We are that monster to them.

It's the equivalent of someone telling you that you've been wrong in your characterization of the sky as blue for your entire life; the sky is actually aubergine and that you believed it was blue is a delusion.  But when you look at the sky you do not see aubergine - you see blue.  This is a fact to you.

To BPDs, it is a fact that there isn't anything over which they should take responsibility or apologize for to us.  They have behaved the way any reasonable person would when confronted by an imposing controller who means them harm.

Apologizing would be absurd.

[KellyO]

We are that monster to them.

This is the hardest part for me. It still haunts me. Because I know how he sees me, and in the end I got the pretty good picture of what kind of person he thinks I am. It is like looking in the mirror that is foggy, or broken. And I still question myself every day, if I really was the person he thinks I am. What if I'm the one who is twisted beyond repair, and seeing him in the broken way? I could see how much I disappointed him in every way, and I tried to live with that pain for three months  trying to save what there is to save. I have never felt so lonely in a relationship.