Is BPD so prevalent that it is personality type rather than a disorder?

[Think About It...]

Since a gruesome break-up with a BPDgf, long recovered from, I have become interested in human psychology and how peoples relationships work (or in some cases don't). I talk much more openly with friends about relationships than I used to. Having had a disasterous relationship myself with a woman who seemed about as BPD as you can get, then perhaps there is a danger that in listening to some of my friends accounts and stories about their relationships, that 'reading' BPD symptoms into their situations is tempting, too easy or simplistic. But that said, it just seems to keep coming up again and again. Out of 12 friends (9 male & 3 female) more than half are struggling in their relationships or splitting up, and in talking to my friends many BPD-like attributes seem a common theme in their difficulties. And it seems to peak in mid-life -the dreaded forties! This makes me wonder if the fabled 'mid-life crisis' and BPD type behaviours intertwine in some noxious emotional cocktail at this age? Infidelity, multiple affairs, 'text message affairs', alcohol abuse, feelings of emptiness and meaninglessness, 'retail therapy' and credit card debt, painting partners 'black or white', fogging, push-pull, lack of empathy etc etc. Yes there are degrees of it just as there are degrees in the levels of depression or other mental health issues. But BPD just seems so unbelievably common that it raises the question for me that if it really is that prevalent, apart from the extreme 'clinical' cases where medical intervention is required, is it not just a selfish, personality that lacks empathy?

[whydoIcare]

Since a gruesome break-up with a BPDgf, long recovered from, I have become interested in human psychology and how peoples relationships work (or in some cases don't). I talk much more openly with friends about relationships than I used to. Having had a disasterous relationship myself with a woman who seemed about as BPD as you can get, then perhaps there is a danger that in listening to some of my friends accounts and stories about their relationships, that 'reading' BPD symptoms into their situations is tempting, too easy or simplistic. But that said, it just seems to keep coming up again and again. Out of 12 friends (9 male & 3 female) more than half are struggling in their relationships or splitting up, and in talking to my friends many BPD-like attributes seem a common theme in their difficulties. And it seems to peak in mid-life -the dreaded forties! This makes me wonder if the fabled 'mid-life crisis' and BPD type behaviours intertwine in some noxious emotional cocktail at this age? Infidelity, multiple affairs, 'text message affairs', alcohol abuse, feelings of emptiness and meaninglessness, 'retail therapy' and credit card debt, painting partners 'black or white', fogging, push-pull, lack of empathy etc etc. Yes there are degrees of it just as there are degrees in the levels of depression or other mental health issues. But BPD just seems so unbelievably common that it raises the question for me that if it really is that prevalent, apart from the extreme 'clinical' cases where medical intervention is required, is it not just a selfish, personality that lacks empathy?

[FinalLee]

I've done a fair amount of studying of The Enneagram personality-typing system and that's actually how I found out about BPD.  However, although there is a personality-type that could correspond with BPD, it is in the very unhealthy range of that personality-type. 

Every personality-type has the possibility of being healthy or unhealthy. At the healthy levels, the different tendencies are simply strengths and weaknesses.  For the healthy version of this personality-type, they would actually have a good, adult grasp on right and wrong.  And rather than reacting like an immature child to defend every single aspect of themselves with no impulse control, they would use that strength (knowledge of right and wrong) to protect others, to bring about positive change in society and they would do it out of their Responsible Adult rather than their Hurt Child.

I suspect that those of us raised in families with a tendency to BPD are probably more tolerant of the behavior because we never had any other reference point.  I've always said that the biggest revelation I had from going away to college was that other people got through the day without screaming at each other.  If you have a lot of people in your life with BPD or BPD-like tendencies, I suspect that you have some part of you that is attracted to some aspect or that doesn't think it's abnormal. 

[whydoIcare]

Hi FinalLee, thx think you make a good point. It does just still make me wonder what percentage of the adult population, who whilst not suffering from a mental health issue in the clinical sense suffer from an unhealthy personality? And whether they get more or less healthy as they get older? One would assume age brings experience and maturity. But my experience with my friends, who are mostly professional people at the peaks of their careers, is that many are actively developing some or many, BPD like indicators! OMG hope it's not catching!

[FindingMe2011]

I have talked to a few friends that are in the field. They all tell me. The older you get, the more like your true self you become. I also agree that people on the same emotional level (whether its temporary for one, visa versa, or both deficient) tend to gravitate towards one another. To me this make logical sense. If one was to grow and the other not, or one to regress, or what ever the combination, here in lies the problem. The job,education, or status, only stands to make the perception cloudy. We have a way of covering, what we wish people not to know. Living with someone, things can only be contained for so long. Unfortunately, BPD is directed towards those that care for them, as do alot of other PDs.  It is one thing, to know of your shortcoming, its totally another to work through your shortcomings. (this is what I found to be true of myself)


And rather than reacting like an immature child to defend every single aspect of themselves with no impulse control, they would use that strength (knowledge of right and wrong) to protect others, to bring about positive change in society and they would do it out of their Responsible Adult rather than their Hurt Child.


Lets see. BPD has done this for an entire lifetime, with plenty of validation. Those that are successful or pretty, get even more. They distort, and twist things till they really do believe thier retorric. So why should they change ? Its the other persons fault anyway. I think they do, from time to time, touch on thier inner child ( I now know I witnessed this). But its not easy, and very painful (its been described as anihillation, death, or amputation, for BPD) so as I find myself struggling with my own subconcious (we all do this, especially on this site). I can somewhat understand why BPD reverts to what they know. Is it right. I think not, but Im not responsible for BPD.  PEACE

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for members with failed or failing relationships that want to detach from their relationship and relationship wounds. If you are still analyzing the decision to stay, please post on Undecided: Staying or Leaving All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[rollercoasterrider]

It does seem like everyone in the world has issues.  Including us.

Weather you call it BPD, other PD's, or personality characteristics.  Its just a name.

I am sure my uBPDgf could be on this site trying to understand my behaviours and issues.

[RedRightAnkle]

I've done a fair amount of studying of The Enneagram personality-typing system and that's actually how I found out about BPD.  However, although there is a personality-type that could correspond with BPD, it is in the very unhealthy range of that personality-type. 

Every personality-type has the possibility of being healthy or unhealthy. At the healthy levels, the different tendencies are simply strengths and weaknesses.  For the healthy version of this personality-type, they would actually have a good, adult grasp on right and wrong.  And rather than reacting like an immature child to defend every single aspect of themselves with no impulse control, they would use that strength (knowledge of right and wrong) to protect others, to bring about positive change in society and they would do it out of their Responsible Adult rather than their Hurt Child.

I suspect that those of us raised in families with a tendency to BPD are probably more tolerant of the behavior because we never had any other reference point.  I've always said that the biggest revelation I had from going away to college was that other people got through the day without screaming at each other.  If you have a lot of people in your life with BPD or BPD-like tendencies, I suspect that you have some part of you that is attracted to some aspect or that doesn't think it's abnormal. 

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but FinalLee, I've looked up some Enneagram stuff too - could the personality type you're thinking of be 4? I remember reading about that  number and how they struggle with identity and feel misunderstood and unique to the world. They expect the people in their lives to be the mothers that they feel they never had - they expect to be taken care of and completely understood, and then when they realize that people cannot possibly do this perfectly, they begin to push away. I kept reading and thought...this is him...this is him...this is SO him.

Well, BPD IS  personality disorder - it's not the same thing as say bipolar or schizophrenia in that certain imbalances in the brain cause a shift in regulation and a sense of reality - personality disorders are defined as being consistent disordered traits in a person's defining behavior...this is PART of them, not just something they are affected by...which is why I assume is why it's so difficult for them to change. There are a lot of people like this, but it's all disordered thinking, so really no matter what this can't just be some kind of extreme, yet healthy, personality. I may be misunderstanding the question, forgive me if I am.

[Mystic]

It seems like there are so many variations, so many possibilities that it's hard to pigeonhole someone. 

As for BPD/NPD, considering them disorders...

There are lines, I guess, tipping points where a person moves from the realm of "unreasonable" "difficult" "selfish or self absorbed" to a person who could be considered dangerously abusive. 

Some people stomp about, make a fuss, other people smash things, hit people, cause damage to persons or property, are financially abusive, sexually abusive, abusive to children, etc. 

Where are the tipping points?  Hard to say.  I guess that's why there are criteria ... then it's number of criteria...intensity of criteria, etc. 

Diagnosing?  Having got my PhD at Hard Knocks U, I came to my conclusions based on what I experienced applied to a lot of research in books and online.  Am I certain?  Certain as all get out that there was something *seriously* wrong, but to hang a name...BPD/NPD was as close as I could get without stepping into the Psychopath/Sociopath realm...and that would be a very short and likely justifiable step. 

I know that I'm lucky to be out.  Not so lucky to have been the collateral damage of someone elses serious sh*t, but I kind of liken it to hitching a ride with a drunk driver. Once you're in the car, you're f***ed until you're out...then you get to mop up whatever mess was made as the driver has sped off. 

What's in a name?  Doesn't matter much.  What matters is the reality of your situation and where you go from here. 

[Mystic]

Having said that...culturally, I really do worry sometimes that as a whole we are moving more toward a cult of personality that embraces and even  worships immature 'child-like' behaviors and in essence we are creating a personality disordered culture... meaning, as a culture, it has become more acceptable to lack empathy, look and act young all the time, be selfish and self absorbed, have your cake and eat it to, enjoy getting over and one-upping others,  have to get all your childish "id" needs met instantly,  feel entitled,  absolutely no deferred gratification (eg., total and instant access to drugs, porn, instant contact w/ the mother ship at all times, shallow communication all the time w/ little or no depth etc.), we don't want to raise our own kids, everything that takes time and patience is downplayed as just a pain in the ass, we want to feel 'good all the time' and if we don't it someone's fault...we are in a way...becoming a very childish " borderline" society.  But that is just my humble, worried opinon. 

 

I agree with this, and one of the reasons I see for it is a lack of societal consequences for bad behavior.  Used to be adultery was frowned upon.  So was abandoning your family.  Thieves were called thieves, cheats and liars were called such as well and no one wanted to be around them.  If you acted like a jerk, you were called out for it.  People faced consequences for their behavior.  We live in a society now where when people are victimized, instead of shunning the perp, we chastize the victim, tell them to buck up and get over it and figure out why they were victimized, while the perp goes off completely unscathed to victimize again.  Tough luck.   

[diotima]

I suspect that BPD is on the increase, but this is speculative. To the extent that firm, good attachment bonds are not made in early infancy, the child is at risk for BPD. We are living, at least in our culture and in cultures that promote and exalt rapid change and novelty and value consumerism, at a time when those kinds of attachments are more threatened than ever, i.e., with dissolution of traditional forms of family. I am not saying that traditional forms of family are the be-all, end-all or that all are healthy, by a long shot. Those bred different kinds of issues, but I think culturally we are going through a big transition and it takes a lot of work to be a countervailing force in the midst of this for parents. There is little question in my mind at this point that poor early attachment is a huge contributing factor to producing BPD--aside from whatever biological predisposition (however one wants to construe it) an infant has to BPD. Bottom line: if the parenting figure doesn't cue in emotionally to the infant's needs in a "good enough way," the infant's brain doesn't learn to regulate affect well enough and doesn't develop a cohesive sense of self.

Awhile back someone posted an article linking an increase in BPD to "postmodernism." That is shorthand for what I am describing above, sort of. The article was written by a psychiatrist, who dabbles in philosophy.
Diotima

[truly amazed]

Hmmm ...

Like the rest have read a lot on BPD.

Personality type ? Well I dont think so as my ex BPD partner was a high functioning one but had 8 or 9 out of 9 of the traits.

Lack of emapthy

Lack of conscience and remorse.

Addicted to booze and a sex issue with anyone and everyone.

Turning molehills into mountains and then abusing the other partner as justification for the problem.

Projecting their feelings. Gaslighting ...

Splitting ...

Rages on the turn of a hat.

Jealous and 100% demanding. Never satisfied ... give her $100- it was $200 next time and so on till it became impossible.

Fear of being abandoned.


Cannot be alone and has not had a break of more than 2 weeks between RS in 30 years.

Two failed marriages where she cheated on both and felt zero remorse. It was justified in her eyes.

Friends of 20 years who were compliant with her wishes dropped as soon as they didn't fufill her needs.

List goes on and on ... physical abuse ... verbal abuse ... terrorism ... blackmail ... complusive lying. Rewriting history in her mind totally to make it fit with her actions however awful.

Yes I know personality type maybe ... but the abiltiy to turn someone from black to white is somewhat unique with BPD. There is no grey ...
I love you ... I hate you ... I love you ... I hate you. Life is a series of grey areas ... nothing is really black and white totally.

Everyone of course has some traits of it all but the totality of all the traits added together is a disorder. Then again one could call it a personality type  but the killer along with the black and white splitting of things is the BPD persons lack of abilty to empathise and see that if they do something awful it may hurt the other person. Its all about them and their feelings and they cannot and do not have the abilty to realise others have feelings and needs just like them. So if we did anything approaching their behaviour towards us they would have flipped ... but we as the suffering non BPD endured it and put our needs and emotions under the carpet.


Calling BPD a personality type for me is not possible ... a person without conscience or compassion or remorse has a disorder ... yes its a personality type ... BUT ... its not normal. Sociapathic or Physcopathiic is what it is. Not normal. Being able to go I love you with all my heart one day and then I hate you or love someone else the next day or 7 days latter ... again is not normal. We always love someone if its true love and it doesn't turn on and off with the flick of a swicth 


Sure its a personality type but also a disorder ... borderline Psycho ... borerline neurotic ... borderline bi polar ... borderline with so many things which are quite clearly a disorder. My own 5 ft 1 inch public princess and private demon thought it was normal to do anything from hitting to spitting  kicking .. demeaing  ...  isolating ... threating to kill herself ... killl me ... my friends ...  I had a list of 80- plus things

For me yep a personality type ... but most definatly a disorder sadly.
For her ... nothing wrong at all with it ... its just her personality type and one should accept it as totally normal.

Interesting ... yes a personality type but for me a disorder.

[FinalLee]

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but FinalLee, I've looked up some Enneagram stuff too - could the personality type you're thinking of be 4? I remember reading about that  number and how they struggle with identity and feel misunderstood and unique to the world. They expect the people in their lives to be the mothers that they feel they never had - they expect to be taken care of and completely understood, and then when they realize that people cannot possibly do this perfectly, they begin to push away. I kept reading and thought...this is him...this is him...this is SO him.

I was actually thinking of a different type. I didn't want to give a number because, when the Enneagram is properly used, there are no "good" types and no "bad" types but people sometimes have a tendency to stigmatize different types.

However, now that you mention it, I'm wondering if there are different unhealthy Enneagram types that correspond to the BPD subtypes (Witch, Waif, Queen, etc.).

The book The Wisdom of the Enneagram says that unhealthy fours become so unhappy that they are not the person of their fantasies that they not only hate themselves but everyone else because others cannot save them;  they may sabotage anything good that is left in their life.

In contrast, the most healthy fours become freed from self-absorbtion when they come to accept that they are not more flawed than anyone else.  They know who they are and they know what their significance is in the world.  They are "self-renewing, redemptive and revelatory."

I've avoided quoting too much directly as I'm unsure of this board's policy on direct quotations so the above is my paraphrase.

[FinalLee]

Everyone has personality 'style'. A style is not a disorder. A style is still flexible and adaptable.  A disorder is not...
Having said that...culturally, I really do worry sometimes that as a whole we are moving more toward a cult of personality that embraces and even  worships immature 'child-like' behaviors and in essence we are creating a personality disordered culture... meaning, as a culture, it has become more acceptable to lack empathy, look and act young all the time, be selfish and self absorbed, have your cake and eat it to, enjoy getting over and one-upping others,  have to get all your childish "id" needs met instantly,  feel entitled,  absolutely no deferred gratification (eg., total and instant access to drugs, porn, instant contact w/ the mother ship at all times, shallow communication all the time w/ little or no depth etc.), we don't want to raise our own kids, everything that takes time and patience is downplayed as just a pain in the ass, we want to feel 'good all the time' and if we don't it someone's fault...we are in a way...becoming a very childish " borderline" society.  But that is just my humble, worried opinon. 

I also worry about this.  I think that many folk in the public eye (celebrities and politicians) exhibit lack of impulse-control, scape-goatting and lack of critical thinking.

I'm actually really new to BPD, but one question I had which seems to fit in with this conversation is whether it isn't a failure of socialization? 

I watched a young friend in her early 30s interacting with her 2 1/2 year old the other day and she and her husband had given their son the concept of "frustration";  she soothed him, helped him to understand that if something wasn't working (he was trying to break the laws of physics with his building blocks) that he shouldn't scream and cry but that he could come to mommy and tell her that he felt sad or mad. 

My BPD mother, on the other hand, has absolutely no emotional understanding of frustration and I'm pretty darn sure it's because her crazy mother didn't teach it to her.  If my mom thinks it's OK to throw a temper tantrum when she can't get what she wants, when she wants it, how is that any different from what we're seeing on TV from the politicians and celebrities these days?

[diotima]

I think BPD is a PD, not a personality type.
Re: the enneagram. I am a four and not BPD and my ex is either a 9 or a 6 (nines go to six under stress, so I think he is a nine). I don't think any of the enneagram types is immune from PD. Sevens would have a tendency to be NPD. That said, I could see how a four who has done no work on him/herself could easily fit the self-injuring BPD, but I think other types could too.
Diotima

[FinalLee]

I think BPD is a PD, not a personality type.
Re: the enneagram. ... I don't think any of the enneagram types is immune from PD. Sevens would have a tendency to be NPD. That said, I could see how a four who has done no work on him/herself could easily fit the self-injuring BPD, but I think other types could too.
Diotima

I think it's correct that no type is immune and I think it's probably also correct that some types are more susceptible than others.  Thanks for the benefit of group discussion to get get a range of perspectives and shed different light on the problem. 

[MindfulJavaJoe]

I think BPD is a PD, not a personality type.

I think this is the distinction:

I do not think anyone would suggest that a person with a particular personalty type has a mental health disorder.

pwBPD have a longterm mental health disorder which impacts on their lives and the lives of those poeple who come into contact with them.

Many of them are of the invisible high functioning type that may be all around you at your place of work.

[RedRightAnkle]

FinaLee and Diotoma

I'm sorry, I didn't mean for it to come out like I thougt fours were "bad." I do understand that there are healthy and unhealthy ends of the spectrum, and that the numbers do not correspond with disorders. I myself am a 6, and they tend to be worriers...so it makes sense on some level that I may be more prone to anxiety disorders than other personalities, but I know that's not a guarantee, especially for healthy 6's.

I know that healthy fours, like you said, understand themselves and their place and have a lot of creative energy that they can utilize their unique view of the world to make something wonderful and their lives can be fufilling. Plus, I wasn't 100% sure my ex was BPD when I read about enneagrams, and four seemed to fit him the best...albeit a very unhealthy four. So I personally think specifically my ex falls under the four personality type, but he's very unhealthy and what makes it worse is that those traits are then filtered through a separate disorder. A friend of mine who is studying psychology and who has many connections in the psychology field studies enneagrams and has said something along the lines of how fours can tend to be more susceptible to personality disorders than others, but of course there's no guarantee.

But I definitely think BPD is a disorder in the way MJJ puts it - if it permeates through every aspect of one's life in a negative way and cripples normal functioning, there's no way it just can be a personality type.

[FinalLee]

RedRightAnkle:

I think we agree.  And your challenge helped me to think about the issue more fully.  The only reason I said what I did is that so many people seem to search for "the bad type" and "the good type".  The woman who taught me Enneagram jokes that when you find "the bad type" you know you've found your type because many people have a negative reaction to the negative aspects of their own type.

I'm also a 6.  And, if you look in The Wisdom of the Enneagram book, you'll see that BPD is listed as a potential disorder for 6s.    I came to the conclusion that my BPD mother and I are both 6s and I'm not surprised I'm a 6, since she raised me.  I recognized some of her own tendencies in myself and I try to nip them in the bud.

MindfulJavaJoe, as I understand it, a personality disorder is about an individual's inability to relate in a mature way to others.  A book I read recently (I can't remember which one), says that if you put a depressed person on an uninhabited island, you will have a person living on an island in a depressed state.  If you put someone with a personality order on an uninhabited island, they will "be fine" until someone else comes along and challenges their ability to relate to the other person. 

This explained to me why a BPD person thinks that their behavior is everyone else's fault:  because they perceive that they are "fine" as long as no one else is around.  It also explained to me my mother's tendency to say "I wish everyone else would just leave me alone!" when she's having a bad-BPD day.

[MindfulJavaJoe]

But I definitely think BPD is a disorder - it permeates through every aspect of one's life in a negative way and cripples normal functioning, there's no way it just can be a personality type.

Well put 

[MaybeSo]

I am a four. I don't have a pd, but i do have a melencholly leaning and can be drawn to a kind of tragic, passionate, pain of "love lost" kind of situation. I see how it draws me to injured people. I resonate with them, but I know I don't have a pd.  

[diotima]

RRA, no offense at all taken.  Fours can become very melancholy and often have a lot of early childhood losses and are often in early environments that were invalidating (not saying other types were not) but fours have a special way of expressing that--lots of longing for the lost love.

I worked with Helen Palmer many years ago on the enneagram and funny I haven't thought of it for awhile. Interesting to think about it in relation to PDs.

Diotima