Can Kids Sense BPD?

[Think About It....]

Whenever my BPDw goes out of town on business or I'm watching our 3-year-old toddler for a few hours, I have almost no problems with his behavior. Our son is pretty much under control and behaves himself when it's just the two of us. He eats his meals and goes to bed without a fuss. There's no slamming doors, throwing toys, yelling, hitting, etc.

When my BPDw is around, there always seems to be something making our son go nuts. He constantly craves attention and acts-up. He throws fits when it comes time to eat and refuses to go to bed without a fight, unless he's absolutely exhausted, and that's not often. And, he has a tendency to hit my wife.

Here's the strange comparison I make when I think about our son and, believe it or not, our 2 dogs. From the moment my BPDw moved in with me 7 years ago, she was so upset that my dogs barked and acted like dogs that she managed to convince me they needed shock collars. Their behavior embarrassed her and it absolutely drove her crazy to think she couldn't control them or their instincts as dogs.

Sometimes, I feel like she treats me like our dogs, but that's another story. It absolutely drives my wife mad that she can't control our son's behavior, and she's always trying to figure out new techniques so he won't act like a toddler spreading his wings and testing the limits. If she could buy a shock collar for him, I'm sure she would. She is so embarrassed by any peep he makes that we stopped going to Church last Easter.

Her attempts to control behavior in humans and dogs always results in failure and frustration. I'm just wondering if our son can sense she's unstable and exploits it. I have no idea if he's even capable of doing so, but he's an angel when it's just the two of us and he's a little devil whenever my wife's around.

[scaredsilly]

Whenever my BPDw goes out of town on business or I'm watching our 3-year-old toddler for a few hours, I have almost no problems with his behavior. Our son is pretty much under control and behaves himself when it's just the two of us. He eats his meals and goes to bed without a fuss. There's no slamming doors, throwing toys, yelling, hitting, etc.

When my BPDw is around, there always seems to be something making our son go nuts. He constantly craves attention and acts-up. He throws fits when it comes time to eat and refuses to go to bed without a fight, unless he's absolutely exhausted, and that's not often. And, he has a tendency to hit my wife.

Here's the strange comparison I make when I think about our son and, believe it or not, our 2 dogs. From the moment my BPDw moved in with me 7 years ago, she was so upset that my dogs barked and acted like dogs that she managed to convince me they needed shock collars. Their behavior embarrassed her and it absolutely drove her crazy to think she couldn't control them or their instincts as dogs.

Sometimes, I feel like she treats me like our dogs, but that's another story. It absolutely drives my wife mad that she can't control our son's behavior, and she's always trying to figure out new techniques so he won't act like a toddler spreading his wings and testing the limits. If she could buy a shock collar for him, I'm sure she would. She is so embarrassed by any peep he makes that we stopped going to Church last Easter.

Her attempts to control behavior in humans and dogs always results in failure and frustration. I'm just wondering if our son can sense she's unstable and exploits it. I have no idea if he's even capable of doing so, but he's an angel when it's just the two of us and he's a little devil whenever my wife's around.

[larissap]

Hi

I have a BPDexh and have been separated for 3 1/2 years.  I don't know what others are going to say but actually in my opinion it doesn't have to be his mother's BPD that makes him act like that.

Often perfectly 'normal' children with perfectly 'normal' mothers act that way around their mothers.  I am not saying it isn't the affect of his mother's BPD although I would personally doubt that at 3 years of age.  My 11 year old is only just starting to figure out something isn't quite 'right' with his dad.

Children often act out with their mother's because they feel safe with them.  Children that are angels with grandparents, at childcare, with their dad turn often into monsters when their mum's come around. A psychologist actually said this is normal to me.  She explained that is why my 11 year old acts out so badly after visits with his dad.  (although this is unrelated to your situation as his Dad and I aren't together but you are still with your wife!)

Like I said, as the first poster, I may differ from what other's think, but I would say this isn't to do with the BPD but normal 3 year old behaviour.

[scaredsilly]

I think he's normal, too, but it drives me nuts when my BPDw is always trying to fix him. She's convinced he's the only toddler who acts this way. Like I noted, she gets embarrassed whenever he acts like a toddler in public. She comes home and gets moody and depressed because she thinks she's a bad parent. She's constantly adjusting her parenting techniques, and I think it's just confusing and frustrating him because she's so inconsistent with her discipline.

This is sort of on the topic ... she has been trying to fix him and make sure he's perfect since he was born. She made sure he was on a rigid schedule for eating and sleeping. That was actually good for us and him, so I can't find much fault with it.

She read all of the mommy blogs and books that had timetables for development, and when he wasn't quite speaking 20 words by a certain month, she called the state's health office and got 2 social workers to come and assess his speech development. Turns out, he was/is normal. Of course, we fought because I thought it was useless and unnecessary, but she needed an "expert" opinion. Common sense and trusting her own parental instincts is not enough for her.

Ever since his first tooth came in she's had him going to the dentist for cleanings and exams. I have no problem with practicing good oral hygiene, but for her, it's more about him being 110% healthy and, again, perfect. She goes to doctors for personal examinations almost every month for one reason or another. Before we got married, she was scheduling appointments for me with a dentist, dermatologist, and physician. I'm guessing it was to make sure I was perfect, too, and wasn't going to croak on her before the big day or anytime soon.

When he started his "terrible twos," she wanted to get him evaluated by his pediatrician and/or a child psychologist to figure out what was wrong with him and how to fix him. I put my foot down and told her he's a toddler exploring boundaries and testing limits. She's probably still mad at me for not entertaining her paranoia.

Now he bites his nails and she is telling me he's doing it because of tension between us. She's using that as justification for her on again, off again threats to leave me and protect him. I explained he might have seen his friends do it at daycare or he might be doing it just because he can. In her head, there always has to be a worst case scenario and someone to blame. Our infant daughter sucks her fingers until they're raw, but I haven't been accused of causing that -- yet.

He has frequent nightmares, too, and that's also being attributed to "us."

Basically, she can't find any cures or quick fixes for his normal toddler behavior, so "we" must be causing it. I'm tired of talking about ways we need to try to fix what's not broken and being cast as the root of his so-called problems. It's one of many, many phases he's going to go through and they're all perfectly natural and normal -- but she doesn't want to accept that fact.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[larissap]

What you have written about here is more about your BPD wife than your son!  

I don't feel that I am experienced enough to answer some of your other questions (if you are actually asking one!    I think you are venting more than anything which is fine.)

You are probably asking how to deal with this.  I think other board members who are still with their pwBPD would be better of answering as I left my X and trying to coparent with a pwBPD as a separated partner is very different from trying to do it while still living together and maintaining a relationship.  In fact you might be better off asking this on the staying board. Not sure.  One of the board's senior people will probably help.

Glad though that you realise your son is the normal one and it is your BPD wife with the problem!

 

[scaredsilly]

I'm doing a lot of venting these past few days since she threatened to divorce me and now she's all lovey-dovey with me again. That might change on Monday night when we goto the marriage counselor, but I'm prepared to validate-validate-validate. Praying for a conflict-free weekend. Wish me luck!

And thanks for listening!

[BattleBornMom]

What you are describing is classic behavior of BPD parents toward their children -- and it is very scary. I don't know if you know that yet, but start exploring it.

Why is it scary? Because BPD are generally very good with children who are 3-4 and younger. They are the perfect recepticles for their disorder. They are true needy individuals who offer non-judgmental, unconditional love and have no opinions of their own. What more could a BPD ask for? They are blank slates to project onto and live vicariously through.

That is exactly what your wife has done with your DS so far. What you see as her actions of being a good mother are actually her selfish motives to present a "perfect" child to the world. If the world thinks she has a perfect child, then she is a perfect mother to have created that perfect child, right? So, it is all on your DS to be sure he toes the line of perfection. If he steps out of line, there will be hell to pay. If he steps out of line in public, the consequences will be even more severe because he will have exposed her to others as an "imperfect" mother. (Just as your dogs barking exposed her as the "imperfect neighbor and pet owner" and she needed to correct that at all costs. Even if it meant using electric shock on your dogs. What it did to them didn't matter. It was about what it was doing to HER.)

He is also reaching the age where he is individuating. This is a cardinal sin to a parent with BPD. He will no longer be that perfect, moldable, blank-slate. She will start to resent him for that and see it as a personal rejection and abandonment. She will lash out at him for it. He will learn to do whatever necessary to please her so that she won't rage at him. That will mean he will squash his own needs, desires, and personality in order to project the person that he thinks she wants him to be. He will learn to put her and her desires first. He will learn to guage her moods and try to guess at what she needs before she even know she needs it. The problem is that this will be a constantly moving target and he will never get it right. So, that adds a great deal of confusion, chaos and instablility into his attempts. But it won't stop him from trying -- he'll just try harder.

How do I know this? Been there, done that, still doing it with my uBPDm. I'm 35 and just NOW coming to the realization this is all wrong.

I've also seem my uBPDm do it to my 14yo niece. I've also seen the seeds of it sown in my own DS2 and DD1. Thank goodness I see it now and can stop it before it ruins my own children.

I don't want to terrify you, but I want to arm you. Arm you with the knowledge of how this really works and where it is heading. Maybe then you can find some tools and strategies to minimize it and keep it from damaging your children.

Also, maybe start doing your own parenting research. There are many differing opinoins out there about what is "best" for children. What she settles on might not really be best. The thing that sticks out to me is the enforcement of a sleeping and eating schedule as an infant. If you do the research that sort of "baby training" is highly frowned upon by trained, educated, and certified professionals. It is usually only promoted by a select few with no real background in child rearing and/or education and/or research. But they sure make a pretty penny off the books they sell. Baby training works for the parents because it seems to produce the "perfectly behaved baby." But there are other (educated, experienced) experts that feel strongly it is damaging to the child. It teaches them to NOT be their own person and NOT to trust their own needs. It teaches them to be tired whem mom says they are tired and hungry when mom says they are hungry. They learn to ignore when THEY FEEL hungry and when THEY FEEL tired. Think about it. That plays perfectly into the projecting needs of a BPD mom -- "you don't have your own needs, MY needs are your needs." That is what we, as children of pwBPD, are taught from infancy.

All trained experts I have consulted -- including the AAP -- strongly recommend eating and sleeping on demand (infant's demand, not parents') for AT LEAST the first 6 months of life. I mention that because it sounds like you have a baby girl, too.

Hang in there!

[Althea]

Battle Born,
That was very useful to me!  Thank you, as I am married to a uBPDh and worry, constantly,  about the effects on my 2 and 4 year old.  Thank you for arming me with first hand info.  We were totally ondemand parents. when they were infants.

[BattleBornMom]

I'm glad it provided you with insight.

Maybe you should consider doing some reading on the Coping board of this site. Many posts there are by the adult children of pwPD. It might provide you with insight into how we were treated and made to feel as children. Then you can look for the red flags of the same patterns in your spouse's interactions with your own children.

[scaredsilly]

Thanks, BattleBornMom! A lot of useful information. A bit scary, too, but I'm glad you made me and others aware of it.

Just got a call from my wife -- she wants me to buy egg timers so we can use them to train our son for time to clean-up, turn-off TV, goto bed, etc.

When the bell rings, he'll know he has to jump. Maybe he'll get a Milkbone too.

I'm not equipped with the skills the nip my wife's behavior in the bud yet. It kills me that I'm being tasked with buying the egg timers -- finally, she has her shock collar for our son. I'm very sad about this right now.

[BattleBornMom]

Scaredsilly,

Actually egg timers might not be a bad thing. I know, this is all very confusing. But keep posting and keep asking.

Egg timers are actually recommended by some respectable child experts. However, they have very limited use and must be used very carefully. They tend to work well not to reinforce a schedule like your wife is trying to do, but to give a toddler that doesn't have a real sense of what "5 more minutes" means the cue when "time is up."

My DS is 2 and I haven't used them yet. However, it is something I might use in the near future. Like this:

It is after supper and we usually do supper, bath, jammies, then bed. However, sometimes a bit of TV time or play time is allowed to sneak in there. So, right now, when he wants to "stay up longer/late" I tell him, "Okay. You may watch 1 episode of Blue's Clues and then it is time for bed." That is a limit he can understand, especially if I consistently enforce it.

The egg timer would work for a slight older child -- say the child wanted to color before bed. "Ok, you can color for 15 minutes, then it is time for bed. I will set this timer for 15 minutes and when it dings, that means it is time to put the crayons away and go to bed."

THAT is how it works. Make sure you are using it like that. The way you describe your wife wanting to use it is as a drill sargent's tool to enforce strict schedules. One way introduces the child to the concept of being allowed an extra bit of freedom, the concept of negotiation, knowing they have to stick to those agreements/rules, and learning what time is (ie 15 minutes). The other makes him into a mini-private in a personal rigid army of do this and do it now.

Do you see the difference?

This is the other thing your wife will do... use her powers of twisting to make something that is actually good into something bad. If you question the egg timers, she will say expert such and such says it is effective! But the truth is it is only effective when used properly and she has rewritten the truth to use it to her own means instead. Be viligent with that.

Your wife's shock collar will be her rages or with holding her love and approval. THAT is what is truly hurtful and scary to your children. THAT is what she will use as negative reinforcement.

If you'd like some gentler parenting techniques and are looking for a place to start with your research, google Dr. Sears and Attachment Parenting. The website is askdrsears.com Start there and see if you like it.

[FinalLee]

She is so embarrassed by any peep he makes that we stopped going to Church last Easter.

Her attempts to control behavior in humans and dogs always results in failure and frustration. I'm just wondering if our son can sense she's unstable and exploits it. I have no idea if he's even capable of doing so, but he's an angel when it's just the two of us and he's a little devil whenever my wife's around.

These themes sound like my mother.   I have "emotional memories" from about that age.  I also have a specific memory of being younger than 4 (because of the house, I know I couldn't have been any older) and having my mother go ballistic and scream and spank the heck of me when I spilled my orange juice at breakfast.  In fact, until I was about 10 years old, I actually thought that spilling a drink was an immoral action;  I kid you not. 

The emotional memories from that age are that the world is a very unsafe place and nothing is predictable.  I might take a step and the floor might open up and swallow me because evidence suggests that there is no consistency in anything.  There is nothing I can do in any sphere to make "good" happen and "bad" can happen any time, without my knowledge.  There is no predicting.  And even though I will have no idea how I made the "bad" happen, it's always my fault that the "bad" suddenly appeared.

It seems your son already knows the difference between the two of you.  If I may say so in a factual way, you are responsible for protecting your son emotionally from your wife's craziness.  I know that might seem unfair when you also have to try to protect yourself but your son is helpless.  Be aware of that responsibility and solicit help from others to be on the protection team.  My dad didn't protect me, he just made sure he was out of the house as much as possible.

[scaredsilly]

Thanks again BattleBornMom!

I'll be sure to take your tips into consideration when we discuss our approach.

My wife is pretty good with paying attention and giving attention to our kids. Because she works F/T, she has an awful guilt complex about it, so she devotes everything she has whenever she has it to them.

The only time she loses her cool and gets scary is when the 3-year-old goes into one of his rages and she fires back at him, "I'm done. I can't take it anymore. Do whatever you want. I don't care!" She'll then look at me and say, "I don't know what to do. What am I doing wrong?" Then she retires to the couch or bed and goes into her zombie state. All of this while the little guy has instantly calmed down and stands there like a deer in headlights.

I comfort him. I comfort her. He apologizes to mommy, but she never apologizes to him. So, yea, I guess he's getting a taste of her BPD now and I need to get to work on mastering those Lessons ASAP.

[scaredsilly]

Thanks, FinalLee!

Yes, I am my kids' sworn protector. I make that promise to them every day and that's why I'm dedicated to trying to make this relationship work.

[BattleBornMom]

I can identify with what you describe -- when my mom was good, she was VERY good. Mother of the Year for sure. When she was bad, she was VERY bad and abusive. This is what makes it so confusing and chaotic and damaging to the kid. They want the Mother of the Year and will do whatever necessary to make her appear and keep her around. The problem is that there is no predicting or understanding or logic in when Mother of the Year will disappear and Queen Witch will appear. pwPD's thinking is so disordered and illogical to us as adults... how can you expect a child to figure it out? They can't.

You are seeing the early parts of that -- your toddler is being a toddler. When you say he "rages" my first instinct is to say -- are you SURE? And if that is what he is doing, you need to get him to a child psychologist. More likely he is being a toddler. My DS2 throws tantrums, too. Frequently and seemingly randomly. He is in a very difficult stage: he can speak just enough that he understands language is powerful and a way to express himself. But he doesn't yet have the language or emotional tools to express all his feelings and desires with clarity. So, he wants or needs something... or feels bad for some reason (maybe had a bad day, maybe is tired, maybe he bumped his head and has a headache). He can't express any of that in words, so instead he looses control and tantrums when he is frustrated.

Example:

2 days ago my DS fell at daycare and got a nasty black eye. That evening he was a little monster. Nothing pleased him, he cried and screamed and threw fits at everything. Finally, I got down on my knees to be eye level with him (what I always do), put my hands gently on him, and said calmly, "Son, look at me." I repeated that and waited until he did... or at least turned toward me, then, "Bubba, use your words. Mommy can't understand you when you cry. Use your words." He would try to start to speak, but was still crying/whining. Me, "Use your words, sweetie."

Most times when I do this, he will eventually calm down enough to show me or tell me what is wrong. But sometimes he just doesn't HAVE the words. This was one of those times. So, I guessed and asked him. "Does your owie hurt?" He put his hand to his eye and said, "Yes. Hurts." Of course the poor guy had a headache. I gave him some advil.

The red flag for me in your post is that your son apologizes, but your wife does not. Classic. And problematic. He gets that "deer in the headlights" because he sees your wife angry (probably the start of what will eventually become full on raging) and it scares him. He doesn't understand why she is doing it. He just knows it is scary. Pretty soon he will start to try to link his own behavior, thoughts, and feelings to his mom. Then he will blame himself (especially because he is already being made to apologise, so clearly it is his fault). Then he will come to believe ALL her problems are his fault and it is his job to fix them.

Can you see that progression? I've lived it.

How you choose to dicipline and raise your child is entirely your choice as his parent. And remember you have at least an equal say in that compared to your wife!

Keeping that in mind, I will share what I do with my own toddler. You can take it or leave it.

At this young age (or any age really!), I NEVER expect him to apologise for his feelings, even if those feelings are anger. I always try to head off any violent expressions of anger by doing what I described above.

If I can't and he hits or bites (a normal stage at this point in development), I ALWAYS act swiftly on that. We are working on learning about the "naughty spot." I also fully expect him to apologise to anyone he has physically hurt. I do NOT expect him to apologise to ME if he has hurt someone else. The "sorry" is very specfic and very directed. "You hurt your sister when you hit her. You need to tell her you are sorry." When he does that, all is forgiven and we move on.

I never tell him "You need to apologise to your sister for being angry." Why? Because... NO, he doesn't. He has a right to his feelings. He just needs to learn he does NOT have the right to act violently on those feelings.

When he is a little older and past the uncontrolable impulses of a 2 year old developing brain, we will refine those more to learn how to control expressions of anger in healthy ways.

Expressing anger in an appropriate way is VERY hard for a child of a PD parent to learn. After all, their parent with the PD is a TERRIBLE example of how to express anger properly.

[FinalLee]

Thanks, FinalLee!

Yes, I am my kids' sworn protector. I make that promise to them every day and that's why I'm dedicated to trying to make this relationship work.

   on their behalf

[dawnjd]

scaredsilly,

Understand your issues. Mine is opposite. My uBPDso has no routine and I can't get him to understand that our child at least needs a little routine and stability to eat, sleep, etc. (my son and I get up at 6-7am, but when his dad is home, he will let our son sleep til 9 or 10...messes with our whole napping routine!)

I have also read your other post in "staying" and I have to agree with one of the other posters... she sounds OCD. There is also something call narcissistic parenting and the perfection factor your wife has might fit that. I don't know the details about it, but it might be worth exploring.

My brother-in-law is very OCD with my nephew...your wife sounds like a female version of him...

[scaredsilly]

dawnjd,

OCD, BPD, PTSD ... my wife probably has a bunch of 'em. Her MPD father tortured her during her youth and his living ghost continues to haunt her today.

She had to deal with his multiple personalities, rages, violence, and everything she saw him to do her mother, too. Her mom's a total control freak, but I don't know her well enough to put a label on what's wrong with her now. I just know that I don't want her giving relationship or child rearing advice to my wife.

I'm just trying to do my best and learn the most I can here to make sure her family's illness(es) don't get passed-on to another generation. Thanks so much for everyone's advice here!

[scaredsilly]

Here's an update and a request for some advice:

My BPDw lost her cool the other night with our 3yr old. He was throwing her stuff around and she absolutely went ballistic on him. She yelled and screamed. He cried and ran to me. I soothed him and he calmed down quickly.

She went into a rage against me after that happened. She blamed her behavior on me for making her angry all the time. No big surprise. She also felt compelled to keep on waking him up after we put him down to bed so she could tell him how much she loves him "no matter what." Interesting choice of words.

Now she feels extreme guilt and pain for lashing out at our innocent child. She continues to blame me for making her angry and won't accept personal responsibility for her own actions.

The real kicker is that she wants us to consult the pediatrician about his behavior that caused her to lose her marbles and yell at him. And she thinks we might need to take him to a child psychologist.

So, along with blaming me for making her angry, she is pinning blame on him for inciting her rage. But she pitching her idea to me as trying to help him behave better and feel safe around mommy and daddy who are "always fighting" (but we're really not - and especially not around him when we do). She just keeps telling me our son can "sense the tension between us," and that's why he's misbehaving and even biting his fingernails (we stress him out).

Do I entertain this latest attempt by my BPDw to fix our son and save him from "us?" If I disagree about it, she'll tell me I always shoot her down and don't care about her needs. And should I call the pediatrician to give her a heads-up about what's going on in my wife's head and make sure she realizes who/what we're dealing with?

[marlo6277]

I know that your son is still quite young.  But there are play therapies for very young children.

You can look at this as a silver lining. Eventually your son will likely need therapy anyway.  If mom is pushing now for him to enter therapy, I would considering just saying "I agree it would be good for him to talk to someone".  (NOTE - you are not saying that you agree that you are at fault for his behaviour or hers.  You are not saying that HE is at fault for her behaviour.  You are merely saying that it would be good for him to talk to someone)

She just keeps telling me our son can "sense the tension between us," and that's why he's misbehaving and even biting his fingernails (we stress him out).

There could be some truth to this.  Children have this amazing sixth sense when it comes to dischord between their parents.  And they can sense it.   Even if you act like it's all rainbows and bunny farts, they know otherwise.  They just do.

When we attempted to get help for my skids, mom was so against them seeing any type of therapist that it was actually making everyone more disregulated just by her disagreeing and saying that kids didn't need to see anyone.  And putting the blame on us for their behaviour.  And hers. 

We managed to find a counsellor who was willing to go the extra mile and literally find her to confront her as to why she didn't want the kids in counselling and to seek her written permission.  She did a very good job at evading the therapist.  But eventually when the stress got too much for her and the kids started lashing out at her she eventually had a revelation and decided that this was enough and said that they needed to see a therapist. 

Since then, whenever the kids start to act out at her place, she immediately sends an email to my DH stating that they need more therapy and they should be booked into an appointment ASAP as they are the ones with problems. 

While I agree, my skids do have some serious issues, I also see why they might be acting out at her house.  They aren't angels.  They act out here as well.  But we are better equipped with handling it and neutralizing the situation, where mom has a tendency to exacerbate a situation and then turn it around.

The only time she wants them to have a therapy appt is when she is affected by things.  And you know what? It works out well, because then at least they are getting the therapy they need.  Who cares how it happened?

I will also tell you as a warning - the things that come out in therapy are going to be things that probably don't paint her in a good light.  And possibly you either for some situations.  You need to be prepared for that.  And she probably won't be well prepared for it.  And then she will likely try to put a stop to it.  But as long as you have that initial consent, you are good to go.  Because then she had agreed.  Her changing her mind can easily be seen by the Ts that it's because she feels she might be in hot water.   They will continue to treat your son, especially if they see that there is actually a lot of merit to the fact that he should be in therapy to help deal with her anger and ways he can learn to cope and not internalize everything.  Which children are also very good at doing.

[scaredsilly]

Thanks for your feedback and advice, Marlo!

The more I think about this, the more I feel it's just another one of my BPDw projecting onto our kids. She was in therapy at a very young age and it's become a normal part of her life. Because of that, I feel like she can't ever make a decision on her own without consulting an "expert."

I'm afraid that she's setting-up our own 3yr old to doubt himself and to focus on things that he simply doesn't see or feel like my BPDw sees and feels. His sensitivity level just isn't set that high, but she wants us to treat him like he's being affected by anything and everything and internalizing it all -- just like mom.

My wife needs to blame his behavior on something because, as I've noted already, she is frustrated that she can't control it. So, when the books and blogs can't provide the quick remedies, she proceeds to blame herself (a busy working mom) and eventually, us -- the parents who are "always fighting" and "stressing him out."

This is just me venting, but maybe if she exerted some confidence around him instead of always being panicked and worried, he'd feel safer and more secure about himself. Right now, he sees his mommy constantly changing her approach to him and getting frustrated by his natural instinct to test the waters and figure out the difference between right and wrong, good and bad, etc.

And I certainly don't want our son growing up thinking that he needs a therapist to validate all of his emotions. I believe my wife is afraid that every grunt and groan has the potential to manifest itself into tragedy and misery and eternal emotional damage/scars. It sure did for her. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it seems to me like my wife wants to make him emotionally dependent on an expert and encourage him to dwell on things that aren't always perfect in his young life. Knowing her, she'll have him scheduled every week to go in and dig-up some wounds for the sake of digging-up wounds. I just don't think that's a healthy approach to raising a toddler.

[BattleBornMom]

First, I think it would benefit me to know what YOU think about your son's behavior. After seeing other say "It sounds like toddler behavior" do you still think he truly rages? Do you feel he needs help? Do you feel he is acting out in such a way that is completely abnormal for a toddler?

If you feel he doesn't have true, abnormal behavioral problems, then I, personally, would strongly suggest against therapy for him. If he is just exhibiting typical toddler behavior, therapy will be of no benefit. He isn't old enough to comprehend the complexities of his mom's behavior, he isn't old enough for "talk" therapy. He is really only old enough for behavioral therapy. If his behavior is normal, taking him to therapy because of it will only make him feel like something is wrong with him. It will reinforce the idea that his mom's behavior is HIS fault and HE needs to change his behavior to suit her needs. This is a slippery, dangerous slope, imho.

When I was about 12-13, I started acting out by cutting myself. I didn't know why I was doing it at the time. My mom saw it on my arms and freaked out. She immediately decided I needed therapy. She drug me around to about 4-5 Ts -- all of which evaluated the family, then said "She's not the problem, you are" to my mom. She wasn't happy with that because she disagreed. So, she kept T shopping until she found one that said, "Sure, this kid is the problem and I can help fix her." Next thing I know a slew of oppressive rules and regulations were slammed down on my head. This only caused me to retreat further into isolation and misery. I stopped cutting -- because look what it had gotten me. But I FELT worse than before. And even more responsible for my f'ed up family dynamics. Eventually, I started to outright refuse to go to the T and when I was made to I refused to participate. So, it stopped.

Be careful you don't let your wife start your son down this path already -- I mean, egads, he's only 3!

Your wife is following typical BPD parent behavior. She raged at your son -- the first of many to come. Like I said, that will be her shock collar for him. "If you misbehave, it will CAUSE me to lash out at you." She's already claiming that very thing by tryingn to convince you and herself that his misbehavior resulted in her raging. She wants to take him to T so he can learn to repress himself and behave "better" so that he doesn't trigger her. HE has to figure out how to adjust himself so as not to set the shock collar off. After your wife realized that she zapped the heck out of her son, she freaked out. This was her train of thought "OMG, what if he doesn't love me anymore? What if he abandons me now? What if he loves his daddy more? Now he'll just distance himself from me like everyone else." Cue the fear of abandonment and rejection. Cue the desperate attempts at preventing it. So, now she disregards all logical sense of what your son needs or deserves and soothes HERself by repeatedly waking him to tell him she loves him. What good is that doing him? None. It's only waking him up and not allowing him to have sleep -- and we all know what a nightmare toddlers are if they don't get their needed sleep!

But it is not about him. It is about her. When she says "Mommy loves you no matter what" she's not saying it like a normal parent would. A normal parent means "I am here for you, I will support you, I will guide you, you have my unconditional love. I love you when you are good, I love you when you are bad. I am a constant in your life." What a parent w/BPD says it, she is actually saying "Remember I love you even when I hurt you. I love you even when I rage at you. I love you even when I hit you. I love you no matter what I do to you. Remember that so you won't leave me or hate me."

I honestly believe that is what my mom always truly meant. I have heard the same thing from her more times in my life than I care to remember. I always felt like she forced me to accept her desperate declarations of love until I relented and said, "It's okay, Mom, I know you love me. I forgive you and I love you, too." Then and only then she settled down. She wasn't looking to reassure me. She was looking to reassure herself. That is what your wife was doing.

If I were you, I would take a validating but stern approach with your wife. Something like,

"I understand you get angry. I understand you feel anger and fear. You have a right to those feelings and they are okay feelings to have. However, what is not okay is for you to act on those feelings of anger and fear by screaming at our son. I understand his misbehavior causes you to feel very frustrated and angry. However, he is just a toddler and does not yet know how to control his impulses and behavior. Those are things WE, as his parents, have to guide him to learn. It takes time. You are the adult, I am the adult. We have the ability to control our actions. Even if his behavior makes your angry, you cannot act on that by yelling at him. That only scares him. And it only sets a bad example for learning how to control anger. We don't want him to learn to react to his anger by yelling and screaming. So, we cannot do the same. He doesn't need therapy for acting like a normal toddler. However, if his actions are causing you to act out, then maybe we need to think about getting you help instead. We cannot expect him to control his behavior if we, as parents and role models, can't control our own."

I don't know if she is ready for those last 2 sentences yet, so they may not be a good idea to include. If she will feel better if you approach it as both of you need to seek some sort of help, then that might be an idea, too. But only do that if you are comfortable with it.  

That is my 2 cents...


apologies, x-posted

[marlo6277]

**** cross posted ****

but maybe if she exerted some confidence around him instead of always being panicked and worried, he'd feel safer and more secure about himself.

I think you might be hoping for the impossible here.  I don't know your wife, but I know my DHs ex.  And this just doesn't even fall into her orbit.  It's just not who she is.  So of course, that makes it more difficult.  Expecting something from someone that they just can't deliver on will make you crazy.

I believe my wife is afraid that every grunt and groan has the potential to manifest itself into tragedy and misery and eternal emotional damage/scars.

This is possible.  It's also possible that she is looking to get control of the situation.  One that she can't control because he is just acting out because he is upset.  

I also know that we don't join the kids in therapy.  The therapist goes off and does play therapy (when they were smaller) or talk therapy and we come back and pick them up.  The T will give us the 'coles notes' version of what happened, but usually won't discuss anything in depth unless there is a concern.

So she really doesn't have the opportunity to control what is said in T, and certainly not to be able to dig up old wounds of her own.  A good T would let her know gently that this therapy is for your son, not her.

[BattleBornMom]

The more I think about this, the more I feel it's just another one of my BPDw projecting onto our kids.

You are probably right.

She was in therapy at a very young age and it's become a normal part of her life. Because of that, I feel like she can't ever make a decision on her own without consulting an "expert."

The other thing a pwBPD has is NO sense of self or self confidence. They always need someone else to tell them what to do and to validate their actions as correct. They can't validate their actions themselves because they have no confidence to draw upon to convince themselves their decisions are right, iykwim.

I'm afraid that she's setting-up our own 3yr old to doubt himself and to focus on things that he simply doesn't see or feel like my BPDw sees and feels.

This is what I touched on before. He is at the age where he is starting to individuate and that is a major sin to a parent with BPD. His needs are not his needs. HER needs are his needs. The sooner he realizes he is nothing more than a object that exists to attempt to soothe her endless emotional void, the better. *sarcasm* She already feels the (unconcious?) need to make him validate HER, not the other way around. pwBPD "parentify" their children. The children become responsible for the parent's desires and emotional well being instead of the reverse. It is very damaging to the child because it steals away their ability to BE a child.

My wife needs to blame his behavior on something because, as I've noted already, she is frustrated that she can't control it. So, when the books and blogs can't provide the quick remedies, she proceeds to blame herself (a busy working mom) and eventually, us -- the parents who are "always fighting" and "stressing him out."

She will find ANYthing to blame it on other than herself. The problem is SHE is to blame. So she will be endlessly chasing a phantom that is impossible to catch. This will introduce no end to the confusion and chaos your children will face. They will never know what to expect or what is coming next.

This is just me venting, but maybe if she exerted some confidence around him instead of always being panicked and worried, he'd feel safer and more secure about himself.

YES! Children need this. The problem -- pwBPD have no confidence. So any they exert is generally only a show and very fragile. So, it doesn't hold well. Especially around people with whom they feel the "safest" -- spouses, children, and other close family members.

Right now, he sees his mommy constantly changing her approach to him and getting frustrated by his natural instinct to test the waters and figure out the difference between right and wrong, good and bad, etc.

Yep. He is starting the long process of learning that it is impossible to tell how mommy will react to anything he might want, do, try, or say. Eventually, he will learn to try to anticipate her reaction before he so much as takes a step. Then he will try to adjust every little step to make her the happiest he can. The problem? He will fail more often than succeed. But, like I said, before, that won't stop him from trying.

And I certainly don't want our son growing up thinking that he needs a therapist to validate all of his emotions. I believe my wife is afraid that every grunt and groan has the potential to manifest itself into tragedy and misery and eternal emotional damage/scars. It sure did for her. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it seems to me like my wife wants to make him emotionally dependent on an expert and encourage him to dwell on things that aren't always perfect in his young life. Knowing her, she'll have him scheduled every week to go in and dig-up some wounds for the sake of digging-up wounds. I just don't think that's a healthy approach to raising a toddler.

If your wife things he needs this sort of "talk" therapy at his age, you need to make her think about that. My DS is only 26 months (so just over 2) but I can't imagine him being ready for this kind of introspective therapy by age 3... or 4 or 5 or 6...

I suspect her desire to get him into therapy is more related to behavior -- see my earlier post.



x-posted again

[scaredsilly]

BattleBornMom,

Your insight and advice is amazing! Better than any therapist I've ever seen

You wrote: "The sooner he realizes he is nothing more than a object that exists to attempt to soothe her endless emotional void, the better. *sarcasm* She already feels the (unconcious?) need to make him validate HER, not the other way around. pwBPD 'parentify' their children. The children become responsible for the parent's desires and emotional well being instead of the reverse. It is very damaging to the child because it steals away their ability to BE a child."

That's exactly what my wife's mother did to her! My wife was the one who soothed her mother when the MPD father became abusive; she never got soothed in return. It seems so selfish that her mom would wear her problems on her sleeve and make my wife take care of her to stop the pain -- when she was in pain, too. Her mom just sent her to therapy instead of dealing with the issues head-on and soothing her like she should have been doing -- as her mother.

Now her mom is revered in this house like a living martyr. My wife always tells me how much her mom "sacrificed" to make sure she grew-up safe from her dad when her mom is just as responsible for her present state of mind. And I noted in a previous post that it scares me to death when she asks her mom for marriage/relationship/child-rearing advice. The two of them are constantly talking about our toddler's natural toddler behavior and trying to figure out how to fix him. And it all makes sense in a sick and twisted way.

[BattleBornMom]

Is her mother BPD, too? It is a learned coping mechasim (maladaptive) by and large. It is not unusual for parents with BPD to "create" children with BPD.

It sounds like your wife and her mother may both be highly enmeshed/enabling BPD.

I learned the same thing from my mother -- that I was there to soothe her, not the other way around. I was very parentified in that regard. Have you read the Emotional Incest Workshop? If not, take a look at it. The scary thing is that I never even realized what happened until after I discovered my mom is likely BPD (she's undiagnosed, but I have no doubt that is what she has). After reading about how BPDs need others to soothe them and make others responsible for their emotional needs, a light bulb went off in my head:

DING! "I love my Dad. I love spending time with my Dad. I have a lot of fun with him and time together makes us both happy. However, I have NEVER, not for a minute, felt RESPONSIBLE for his emotional well being or happiness. I have ALWAYS felt responsible for mom's emotional well being. Especially when living with her. If she wasn't happy, it was my fault and my job to fix that."

Thankfully, I had my non-Dad to compare it against. It was like this massive burden was suddenly lifted off my shoulders -- at age 35! I finally gave myself permission to not drain myself dry in an attempt to make someone happy that is INCAPABLE of sustained happiness. Wow.

If I continued to buy into my uBPDs view of the world, she would be a martyr, too. How she stayed with my Dad through years of an abusive, loveless marriage for us kids. How we wouldn't have had any love or warmth in my life if it wasn't for her sacrifice (she accuses my Dad of being a very cold, unemotional man). How she stayed home during the day to take care of us kids and then worked nights so we didn't have to be in daycare. How she worked long hours at crappy jobs so we could have what we had. How she took beatings from my Dad so he wouldn't beat us. How she worked all those years and then didn't ask for anything in the divorce and let my Dad have everything.

99% of that is lies -- twisted, sick lies to make herself feel better. To gain sympathy for who and what she is now. So people will feel sorry for her and comfort her. It is a VERY big part of the FOG she creates in her children (have you read about FOG and are familiar with it?). The constant implication since I can remember is that I "owe" her, I am obligated to do what she wants and needs, if I don't she will bring on the guilt hard and heavy until I am emotionally and mentally crippled, or she will rage until I am so terrified I will do whatever it takes to make it stop (Fear Obligation Guilt).   

When (not if) your wife creates that same sort of FOG around her children, it will be very hard for them to see their way clear of it. Hopefully, by having awareness and tools at your fingertips now, you will be able to counteract some of that. Or soften the blow.

The relationship between your wife and MIL sounds scary. Do you feel threatened by it?


P.S. I am glad you find my ramblings helpful. I've lived it. So, I'm just being honest from my limited experience. But, if I can help another innocent child not face the full force of what I have, it would be amazing to me.

[Wrongturn1]

Sorry to interrupt the thoughtful analysis with a bit of silliness, but Scaredsilly, you mention your wife's desire to stop your dogs from acting like dogs, and I had to LOL b/c the description was so similar to something at our house. 

We have a very well-behaved dog, who, on occasion licks his own b@lls, just like all dogs do... but this flies all over my uBPDw, and she snaps and yells at him every time.  Her behavior would be hilarious to me, if she didn't expect me to yell at the dog over this as well... which being the codependent that I am, I typically do (time to stop that, though).

[ennie]

Scaredsilly,

First, a small child seeing a therapist is really different than a grown up seeing one.  For a child, a therapist is not someone to tell your problems to.  It is a neutral third party who can validate who you are with no repercussions that matter much.  When you validate your kid and comfort him after mommy yells, he has to see mommy get angry at daddy.  That makes it not safe to get validation and comfort.  If a child is with a T, playing fun games, and says something about mommy being very angry, the T can help the child know that he is fine, not bad, when mommy is angry (there are all kinds of ways that T's do this by playing and having fun, not just telling a kid how to think).  What the kid comes away with is feeling like he is ok, which is very useful if mommy is NOT okay with his normal behavior.  If mommy hates the therapist, this is far less frightening and damaging than if mommy hates daddy, not to mention the fact is most likely mommy will never know what goes in between the T and her son.  Make sure you get someone who has experience with BPD moms, so that they will know how to connect with her to help her to feel safe. 

Allowing a child to have a relationship like that also can help him/her to feel what it is like to have a relationship with someone who is not caught up in mom's drama.  A partner cannot help but get caught up in the drama.

My DH had to finally insist that the kids see a T.  His ex always wanted that, but was too afraid to find a T, afraid they would think she was a bad mom.  She chose the T, he pays.  The T made him promise that when mom hates her, which would happen at some point, he would get a court order to allow therapy to continue.  The T has made all of the difference for the kids.  You can see how much more relaxed they are when they return from seeing her.   

I also want to say that I am not sure that staying is the best way to protect children.  My husband stayed with his BPD wife for 7 years, partly to "protect" the children.  In that time, they got to see very dysfunctional stuff that has had a huge impact on them--seeing mommy beat up daddy and daddy not protect himself, seeing mommy rage at daddy and daddy mostly take it, seeing mommy hit herself and blame daddy, seeing mommy tell daddy he was a bad father over and over...all this stuff really does influence how the kids experience and treat mommy.  My older step-daughter treats her mom like daddy did--like she can make it better by loving her mom, and like her needs do not matter. 

My DH separated from his wife 5 years ago after she left him, and within a year, both kids' significant behavioral issues disappeared.  We have been together 4 years, and I cannot tell you how much growth and change I have seen in the kids in terms of psychological health.  SD11's learning disabilities are much better, SD7 went from being a total introvert to being very well adjusted. 

We have the kids 50% of the time.  We are currently in custody litigation, which has been awful.  The kids are having a really hard time.  Some of the old behaviors have resurfaced (lying, bed wetting for the younger SD, etc.).  But generally, they are still doing well even given the high stress.  The kids grandparents regularly comment on how much the kids seem happier than when their parents were together. 

I am not saying you should leave your partner.  Just that you should be aware that living full time with a BPD parent can be more stressful than living part time with one and the rest of the time with a stable home.  That stress can result in routine health problems (and yes, those on this board will report that many BPD folks have a lot of excessive concern over health issues, etc...in our home, the kids eventually caught on...Mommy LIKES illness!  It is fun!).

All kids love their moms and want to adjust to get their approval, attention, and to get their own needs met.  Someone with BPD can have too many requirements for that to be wholly positive.  I find that when the kids have time away from their mom, they can receive her good qualities more readily, and can better take care of their own needs. SD7, who was 2 when her parents developed separate residences, is FAR more able to love herself and move toward what feels good and away from what does not than does her sister.  When a child depends so much on someone who can go from loving and nurturing to raging and rejecting very quickly, the needs of that caretaker become all important, because the risk of being rejected or harmed feels immanent and unpredictable.  Clinging to that person feels safer than focusing on your own needs.  For SD11, this is very hard.  She will do anything to break up a fight between her mother and others, even if it means placing herself at risk.  When the kids' mom is having a hard time, SD7 just takes some alone time, or finds a neighbor friend.  She just does not depend on mom alone the way that her sister does. 

I see this as a direct result of having one family that is safe and works things out in safe ways.  She knows the difference; also, she had the foil of her sister. 

I also see the fact that your partner works as a good thing.  This gives your son time to be with people who do things "normally," which is helpful in developing a sense that the upset is who mommy is, not who he is. 

Finally, have you read "stop walking on eggshells" or other literature addressing communicating with someone with BPD in a validating way while still being able to have boundaries?  Seems like you have, but just wanted to check. 

Daddies are very important in the lives of children.  There is a lot of literature indicating that having a dad in your life, divorced or not, improves children's self esteem, results in improved performance at sports and other activities, and puts a child less at risk for lots of teen problems.  But when mom has a possible mental illness, the stability of a sane parent can turn a desperate situation into a safe and loving one.  Under one roof, there is a degree to which a mentally ill parent can really be the dominant force.  But in any event, your role in your child's life is huge, and it is beautiful to see how seriously you are taking that role. 

[BattleBornMom]

I agree that staying in a relationship with a BPD partner is not always the best solution -- probably rarely is. My Dad stayed because he had previous experience of fighting for custody of his son (my half brother) in the courts and loosing. Despite the fact that the mother was crazy and abusive. He didn't want to risk the same thing with us girls.

I would say that if anyone chooses to leave a partner with a PD, be sure you can get primary (even full) custody. The worst case scenerio would be for the PD parent to get primary or full custody, imho. Best case scenerio for the children? The non-parent leaves and gets primary custody. Time with the PD parent is limited to visitation.

However, that is not always possible for every family.

[zoso80]

BattleBornMom,

Thank your wonderful posts! Without getting too deep into my story, my ex partner was diagnosed with BPD (it wasn't disclosed until the twilight of the relationship). At first she painted SD6 black as night. SD6 had 'problems.' SD6 was to blame for all the problems of dxBPDp so she said. SD6 looked shell shocked and was almost 2 years behind in normal development. Poor kid had no boundries, limited language and more than likely had been touched by a friend of her half brother's inappropriately. What did her mom do? Call her a liar and threaten to beat her bloody and shame her. Her mom was still doing that when the child brought it up 2 1/2 years later.

I was with dxBPDp for nearly a year.  Being a non, I had to step in and take primary parenting of SD6.  SD6 started visiting specialists and got better and better. You know whats odd? dxBPDp got WORSE! My only explanation to this was that I was blocking dxBPDp's black painting of SD6. dxBPDp COULDN'T project it on SD6. I wasn't accepting dxBPDp's projection either.

Fast forward to me saying to dxBPDp that 'I'm done' and that I was leaving. Before I could leave I knew that SD6 had no one to look out for her. Her dad isn't involved in her life and won't be for the foreseeable future. SOMEONE had to stop the nightmare the child had laid out in front of her. Being dragged to ANOTHER school, moving from place to place with her mom.  The child had already moved 5 times in six years. She'd had no stability. With me leaving dxBPDp, SD6 would be going to her 4th school and she was just in second grade!

There is a boarding school that was in the community. I started the process to see if I could get SD6 enrolled. I didn't even tell dxBPDp until the school was willing to take SD6 on a trial basis to gauge full admission (boy she was PISSED). I was working part time and  getting ready to live with my folks, plus dxBPDp was already massively splitting, manic and completely nutso. I couldn't take SD6 and since she's not biologically tied to me, there is no way I could get her mom to let me take her.

Long story short, your words about getting the kids out struck a nerve. That's what I did. SD6 went in to the boarding school. Her mom made it touch and go, since dxBPDp really didn't want it to happen - but in the end, did it. She remains there to this day. October 1st will mark one year. dxBPDp tried to remove her earlier this year, against even dxBPDp's T's wishes. My family went to court and just finished a settlement with dxBPDp. The child remains in the school indefinately via court order. My parents were even granted joint decision making and regular visitation. We have enough leverage on her, we know enough skeletons to make her squirm.

Bottom line: dxBPDp cannot jerk SD6 around anymore. Visit her yes, remove her - Not without court oversight.

I stayed out of it, because if my name was on the whole proceeding, surer than snot, we'd be in trial right now. I know it's extreme to say a child is BETTER not living with it's mother. In this case, it's absolutely better for SD6 not to be in dxBPDp's physical custody.

It may not be ideal for SD6, she's still coping with not living with her mom and now building fantasies about living with her biological family. The fantasies are just that - fantasies. They'll never happen. dxBPDp will NEVER  improve. Her history is of blame, projection, fighting, parentification of her son... etc. dxBPDp has dropped all therapies and has the Alfred E. Neuman philosophy of 'what me worry?' nothing is wrong!

SD6 is getting tons of therapy and has grown so much mentally. It's amazing. I hope this is enough for SD6 (who'll be 9 in Nov.) to break free of the terrible life.

(On a side note, SD6 has expressed anger at her mom - which is new - I knew it was there a couple years ago, now she says it - example, her mom making them move and her mom forgetting all SD6's baby pictures.  When dxBPDp returned to get them, the landlord threw it all in the dumpster and they were gone forever. So, SD6 has no pictures of her from about age 4 back. Not a single baby picture of her - nothing.)

Thank you again.
Stephanie

Time with the PD parent is limited to visitation.

[BattleBornMom]

Good for you for fighting for that little girl! :D It is impossible for her to understand that she is better where she is and not with her mom because she is just a little girl who wants her mommy. But she is better off. Of course, it would be ideal if she could live with a healthy non-PD bio mom... but that simply isn't within her realistic reach. So, not having to be painted black by her mom, having a stable place... those are important to her. More than she knows.

[zoso80]

Thanks for your reply.

It's strange now, with the settlement in place, SD6 is now her perfect precious baby.  The black that SD6 was painted was so intense between dxBPDp and her son it shocked me. After the boy went to North Carolina and dxBPDp came to live with me, SD6 was continued to be painted black.

It was so bad, dxBPDp was about halfway through putting SD6 up for adoption in Nov. of 2009.

As I worked with SD6, as she went to counseling, I worked with her schoolwork, SD6 got better and better. Meanwhile, dxBPDp got worse and worse.

Do you have any insight as to how a BPD mother can paint her child black, publicly say that the SD6 is perfect poster child for birth control then less than a year coo "I Love you sooo much" and idealize her as her precious baby?

The only thing I can think is that the black got transferred to me because I protected the child from her mother and dxBPDp just "forgot" about all the dark energy she felt and projected.

Thanks!

Good for you for fighting for that little girl! :D It is impossible for her to understand that she is better where she is and not with her mom because she is just a little girl who wants her mommy. But she is better off. Of course, it would be ideal if she could live with a healthy non-PD bio mom... but that simply isn't within her realistic reach. So, not having to be painted black by her mom, having a stable place... those are important to her. More than she knows.

[BattleBornMom]

Do you have any insight as to how a BPD mother can paint her child black, publicly say that the SD6 is perfect poster child for birth control then less than a year coo "I Love you sooo much" and idealize her as her precious baby?

I wish I understood why any pwBPD chooses to paint people black and then white. Sometimes it makes sense, but more often the reasons involve a great deal of twisted thinking that only the pwBPD is privvy to.

It probably has to do with the "I hate you, don't leave me." mantra that pwBPD so often experience. As long as SD6 was with her and HERS, BPDm was free to paint her black and be as evil to her as suited her own needs. Maybe making SD6 out to be such a terror validated BPDm's view as a matyr and victim -- "I've been cursed with this terrible child and I am suffering through it as best I can. But believe me, it isn't easy! I'm a saint for doing as well as I am with this devil-child."

But as soon as SD6 was taken from her, she started playing the "Don't leave me" game. She feels abandoned by SD6 and will do ANYthing to lure her back in. It is common for pwBPD to slather on the love words and gifts and begging very thick in order to prevent someone from leaving their lives. BPDm is no longer the victim of DS6, she's now the victim of those that took SD6 from her and forced SD6 to abandon her. So, her victimhood is intact and she can paint her new persecutors black. SD6 is now the one that has left and needs to be idolized until she wants to come back to BPDm.

That's my best guess, but it is hard to say for sure. Like I said, often trying to make sense of a pwBPD's twisted thinking is next to impossible.

[zoso80]

That makes so much sense!

My family's lawyer had a run in with dxBPDp outside the court. dxBPDp was splitting and literally spitting nails. My family was black. Our lawyer not missing a beat said, "These are people who you just trusted them to have your child for a month and you are saying these horrible things?" dxBPDp shut her mouth quickly. Other highlights of that run included the parentified 13 year old son. He confronted our lawyer FOR his mother. Our lawyer told him she didn't talk to children about adult matters.

Regarding SD6, that change from black to idealization it's confusing for her. She wants her mommy as any child that age will. Her hopes of a real family have been rekindled. Mommy now wants her and 'loves her soooooooooo much.'  It's horrible to watch the child's feelings be played with like that from a dBPDm. Take my family out of the equation, take the boarding school out, take the court out and return back to the way things were before dxBPDp came to live with me; in short order I am sure the original dynamic would reassert itself since dxBPDp could control it. Especially now that dxBPDp's son lives with her. He's the one who's screamed at SD6 that all the family's problems were because of her. dxBPDp didn't vocalize it, but projected it. The boy also has said SD6's birth screwed up everything in the family.  The boy scares me,  because he's admitted he's a mama's boy (hence, parentified) and his splitting to SD6 is disgusting. He is not good for SD6.

SD6 continues therapy, yet I fear her progress will be dispite her mother. Her mother will run interference and give that child hope when she in no way can deliver on it. SD6 was annoyed her mother 'promised' a package, yet nothing ever came in the mail. SD6 took to blaming the mail system. I have since then sent a few packages and SD6 has received them. I used it as lesson that, yes the mail system works. It might just be the package your mom said she sent, she never did. SD6 knows in the past her mom hasn't shown up/or did things she said she was going to.

Thanks again for helping me understand. Best to you.

Stephanie

BPDm is no longer the victim of DS6, she's now the victim of those that took SD6 from her and forced SD6 to abandon her. So, her victimhood is intact and she can paint her new persecutors black. SD6 is now the one that has left and needs to be idolized until she wants to come back to BPDm.

[joyous]

Hi,

I'm new to the boards and so, a little late jumping in on this post, but just wanted to share that I have a similar experience with my D, 3 and my BPDh. So I don't think it's exclusive reaction to mom. The ways that she acts out with me seem to test the rules, boundaries etc., things that I guess are pretty normal for the age group. But with him it's pretty aggressive, lots of yelling and hitting. I don't think my D is exploiting his instability but I do feel like she doesn't feel quite safe around him and that causes her to act out. A lot of his rules are inconsistent and arbitrary and he has some unfair expectations of what a 3yo is capable of. During the time of his last 'cycle' she would scream to not have to spend time with him, understandably, he was angry, critical and unpredictable. He, in turn would blame me for turning her against him. I can see how personally he takes her rejections even now, even on his 'good days'.

Also, he is constantly testing her on letters and colors and numbers, spelling and math. It drives me up a wall, but when I mention it, he says that he's not testing her and that he's not doing anything different than any of the workbooks she has. BattleBornMom's comments about needing to create a perfect child now make so much sense.

I think it's pretty interesting that you first mentioned the dogs barking. There have been certain occasions where normally friendly dogs will bark excessively at BPDh. There was even a co-workers dog who had a pretty shy disposition but would bark and then run and cower anytime BPDh entered the office. I always wondered what the dogs sensed and now I wonder if they pick up on the imbalance as well.

I'm sorry you're going through this, I know how hard it is to feel like you don't have a partner in parenting your kiddo. 

~Joyous