Can Kids Sense BPD?

[Think About It....]

First, I think it would benefit me to know what YOU think about your son's behavior. After seeing other say "It sounds like toddler behavior" do you still think he truly rages? Do you feel he needs help? Do you feel he is acting out in such a way that is completely abnormal for a toddler?

If you feel he doesn't have true, abnormal behavioral problems, then I, personally, would strongly suggest against therapy for him. If he is just exhibiting typical toddler behavior, therapy will be of no benefit. He isn't old enough to comprehend the complexities of his mom's behavior, he isn't old enough for "talk" therapy. He is really only old enough for behavioral therapy. If his behavior is normal, taking him to therapy because of it will only make him feel like something is wrong with him. It will reinforce the idea that his mom's behavior is HIS fault and HE needs to change his behavior to suit her needs. This is a slippery, dangerous slope, imho.

When I was about 12-13, I started acting out by cutting myself. I didn't know why I was doing it at the time. My mom saw it on my arms and freaked out. She immediately decided I needed therapy. She drug me around to about 4-5 Ts -- all of which evaluated the family, then said "She's not the problem, you are" to my mom. She wasn't happy with that because she disagreed. So, she kept T shopping until she found one that said, "Sure, this kid is the problem and I can help fix her." Next thing I know a slew of oppressive rules and regulations were slammed down on my head. This only caused me to retreat further into isolation and misery. I stopped cutting -- because look what it had gotten me. But I FELT worse than before. And even more responsible for my f'ed up family dynamics. Eventually, I started to outright refuse to go to the T and when I was made to I refused to participate. So, it stopped.

Be careful you don't let your wife start your son down this path already -- I mean, egads, he's only 3!

Your wife is following typical BPD parent behavior. She raged at your son -- the first of many to come. Like I said, that will be her shock collar for him. "If you misbehave, it will CAUSE me to lash out at you." She's already claiming that very thing by tryingn to convince you and herself that his misbehavior resulted in her raging. She wants to take him to T so he can learn to repress himself and behave "better" so that he doesn't trigger her. HE has to figure out how to adjust himself so as not to set the shock collar off. After your wife realized that she zapped the heck out of her son, she freaked out. This was her train of thought "OMG, what if he doesn't love me anymore? What if he abandons me now? What if he loves his daddy more? Now he'll just distance himself from me like everyone else." Cue the fear of abandonment and rejection. Cue the desperate attempts at preventing it. So, now she disregards all logical sense of what your son needs or deserves and soothes HERself by repeatedly waking him to tell him she loves him. What good is that doing him? None. It's only waking him up and not allowing him to have sleep -- and we all know what a nightmare toddlers are if they don't get their needed sleep!

But it is not about him. It is about her. When she says "Mommy loves you no matter what" she's not saying it like a normal parent would. A normal parent means "I am here for you, I will support you, I will guide you, you have my unconditional love. I love you when you are good, I love you when you are bad. I am a constant in your life." What a parent w/BPD says it, she is actually saying "Remember I love you even when I hurt you. I love you even when I rage at you. I love you even when I hit you. I love you no matter what I do to you. Remember that so you won't leave me or hate me."

I honestly believe that is what my mom always truly meant. I have heard the same thing from her more times in my life than I care to remember. I always felt like she forced me to accept her desperate declarations of love until I relented and said, "It's okay, Mom, I know you love me. I forgive you and I love you, too." Then and only then she settled down. She wasn't looking to reassure me. She was looking to reassure herself. That is what your wife was doing.

If I were you, I would take a validating but stern approach with your wife. Something like,

"I understand you get angry. I understand you feel anger and fear. You have a right to those feelings and they are okay feelings to have. However, what is not okay is for you to act on those feelings of anger and fear by screaming at our son. I understand his misbehavior causes you to feel very frustrated and angry. However, he is just a toddler and does not yet know how to control his impulses and behavior. Those are things WE, as his parents, have to guide him to learn. It takes time. You are the adult, I am the adult. We have the ability to control our actions. Even if his behavior makes your angry, you cannot act on that by yelling at him. That only scares him. And it only sets a bad example for learning how to control anger. We don't want him to learn to react to his anger by yelling and screaming. So, we cannot do the same. He doesn't need therapy for acting like a normal toddler. However, if his actions are causing you to act out, then maybe we need to think about getting you help instead. We cannot expect him to control his behavior if we, as parents and role models, can't control our own."

I don't know if she is ready for those last 2 sentences yet, so they may not be a good idea to include. If she will feel better if you approach it as both of you need to seek some sort of help, then that might be an idea, too. But only do that if you are comfortable with it.  

That is my 2 cents...


apologies, x-posted

[BattleBornMom]

First, I think it would benefit me to know what YOU think about your son's behavior. After seeing other say "It sounds like toddler behavior" do you still think he truly rages? Do you feel he needs help? Do you feel he is acting out in such a way that is completely abnormal for a toddler?

If you feel he doesn't have true, abnormal behavioral problems, then I, personally, would strongly suggest against therapy for him. If he is just exhibiting typical toddler behavior, therapy will be of no benefit. He isn't old enough to comprehend the complexities of his mom's behavior, he isn't old enough for "talk" therapy. He is really only old enough for behavioral therapy. If his behavior is normal, taking him to therapy because of it will only make him feel like something is wrong with him. It will reinforce the idea that his mom's behavior is HIS fault and HE needs to change his behavior to suit her needs. This is a slippery, dangerous slope, imho.

When I was about 12-13, I started acting out by cutting myself. I didn't know why I was doing it at the time. My mom saw it on my arms and freaked out. She immediately decided I needed therapy. She drug me around to about 4-5 Ts -- all of which evaluated the family, then said "She's not the problem, you are" to my mom. She wasn't happy with that because she disagreed. So, she kept T shopping until she found one that said, "Sure, this kid is the problem and I can help fix her." Next thing I know a slew of oppressive rules and regulations were slammed down on my head. This only caused me to retreat further into isolation and misery. I stopped cutting -- because look what it had gotten me. But I FELT worse than before. And even more responsible for my f'ed up family dynamics. Eventually, I started to outright refuse to go to the T and when I was made to I refused to participate. So, it stopped.

Be careful you don't let your wife start your son down this path already -- I mean, egads, he's only 3!

Your wife is following typical BPD parent behavior. She raged at your son -- the first of many to come. Like I said, that will be her shock collar for him. "If you misbehave, it will CAUSE me to lash out at you." She's already claiming that very thing by tryingn to convince you and herself that his misbehavior resulted in her raging. She wants to take him to T so he can learn to repress himself and behave "better" so that he doesn't trigger her. HE has to figure out how to adjust himself so as not to set the shock collar off. After your wife realized that she zapped the heck out of her son, she freaked out. This was her train of thought "OMG, what if he doesn't love me anymore? What if he abandons me now? What if he loves his daddy more? Now he'll just distance himself from me like everyone else." Cue the fear of abandonment and rejection. Cue the desperate attempts at preventing it. So, now she disregards all logical sense of what your son needs or deserves and soothes HERself by repeatedly waking him to tell him she loves him. What good is that doing him? None. It's only waking him up and not allowing him to have sleep -- and we all know what a nightmare toddlers are if they don't get their needed sleep!

But it is not about him. It is about her. When she says "Mommy loves you no matter what" she's not saying it like a normal parent would. A normal parent means "I am here for you, I will support you, I will guide you, you have my unconditional love. I love you when you are good, I love you when you are bad. I am a constant in your life." What a parent w/BPD says it, she is actually saying "Remember I love you even when I hurt you. I love you even when I rage at you. I love you even when I hit you. I love you no matter what I do to you. Remember that so you won't leave me or hate me."

I honestly believe that is what my mom always truly meant. I have heard the same thing from her more times in my life than I care to remember. I always felt like she forced me to accept her desperate declarations of love until I relented and said, "It's okay, Mom, I know you love me. I forgive you and I love you, too." Then and only then she settled down. She wasn't looking to reassure me. She was looking to reassure herself. That is what your wife was doing.

If I were you, I would take a validating but stern approach with your wife. Something like,

"I understand you get angry. I understand you feel anger and fear. You have a right to those feelings and they are okay feelings to have. However, what is not okay is for you to act on those feelings of anger and fear by screaming at our son. I understand his misbehavior causes you to feel very frustrated and angry. However, he is just a toddler and does not yet know how to control his impulses and behavior. Those are things WE, as his parents, have to guide him to learn. It takes time. You are the adult, I am the adult. We have the ability to control our actions. Even if his behavior makes your angry, you cannot act on that by yelling at him. That only scares him. And it only sets a bad example for learning how to control anger. We don't want him to learn to react to his anger by yelling and screaming. So, we cannot do the same. He doesn't need therapy for acting like a normal toddler. However, if his actions are causing you to act out, then maybe we need to think about getting you help instead. We cannot expect him to control his behavior if we, as parents and role models, can't control our own."

I don't know if she is ready for those last 2 sentences yet, so they may not be a good idea to include. If she will feel better if you approach it as both of you need to seek some sort of help, then that might be an idea, too. But only do that if you are comfortable with it.  

That is my 2 cents...


apologies, x-posted

[marlo6277]

**** cross posted ****

but maybe if she exerted some confidence around him instead of always being panicked and worried, he'd feel safer and more secure about himself.

I think you might be hoping for the impossible here.  I don't know your wife, but I know my DHs ex.  And this just doesn't even fall into her orbit.  It's just not who she is.  So of course, that makes it more difficult.  Expecting something from someone that they just can't deliver on will make you crazy.

I believe my wife is afraid that every grunt and groan has the potential to manifest itself into tragedy and misery and eternal emotional damage/scars.

This is possible.  It's also possible that she is looking to get control of the situation.  One that she can't control because he is just acting out because he is upset.  

I also know that we don't join the kids in therapy.  The therapist goes off and does play therapy (when they were smaller) or talk therapy and we come back and pick them up.  The T will give us the 'coles notes' version of what happened, but usually won't discuss anything in depth unless there is a concern.

So she really doesn't have the opportunity to control what is said in T, and certainly not to be able to dig up old wounds of her own.  A good T would let her know gently that this therapy is for your son, not her.

[BattleBornMom]

The more I think about this, the more I feel it's just another one of my BPDw projecting onto our kids.

You are probably right.

She was in therapy at a very young age and it's become a normal part of her life. Because of that, I feel like she can't ever make a decision on her own without consulting an "expert."

The other thing a pwBPD has is NO sense of self or self confidence. They always need someone else to tell them what to do and to validate their actions as correct. They can't validate their actions themselves because they have no confidence to draw upon to convince themselves their decisions are right, iykwim.

I'm afraid that she's setting-up our own 3yr old to doubt himself and to focus on things that he simply doesn't see or feel like my BPDw sees and feels.

This is what I touched on before. He is at the age where he is starting to individuate and that is a major sin to a parent with BPD. His needs are not his needs. HER needs are his needs. The sooner he realizes he is nothing more than a object that exists to attempt to soothe her endless emotional void, the better. *sarcasm* She already feels the (unconcious?) need to make him validate HER, not the other way around. pwBPD "parentify" their children. The children become responsible for the parent's desires and emotional well being instead of the reverse. It is very damaging to the child because it steals away their ability to BE a child.

My wife needs to blame his behavior on something because, as I've noted already, she is frustrated that she can't control it. So, when the books and blogs can't provide the quick remedies, she proceeds to blame herself (a busy working mom) and eventually, us -- the parents who are "always fighting" and "stressing him out."

She will find ANYthing to blame it on other than herself. The problem is SHE is to blame. So she will be endlessly chasing a phantom that is impossible to catch. This will introduce no end to the confusion and chaos your children will face. They will never know what to expect or what is coming next.

This is just me venting, but maybe if she exerted some confidence around him instead of always being panicked and worried, he'd feel safer and more secure about himself.

YES! Children need this. The problem -- pwBPD have no confidence. So any they exert is generally only a show and very fragile. So, it doesn't hold well. Especially around people with whom they feel the "safest" -- spouses, children, and other close family members.

Right now, he sees his mommy constantly changing her approach to him and getting frustrated by his natural instinct to test the waters and figure out the difference between right and wrong, good and bad, etc.

Yep. He is starting the long process of learning that it is impossible to tell how mommy will react to anything he might want, do, try, or say. Eventually, he will learn to try to anticipate her reaction before he so much as takes a step. Then he will try to adjust every little step to make her the happiest he can. The problem? He will fail more often than succeed. But, like I said, before, that won't stop him from trying.

And I certainly don't want our son growing up thinking that he needs a therapist to validate all of his emotions. I believe my wife is afraid that every grunt and groan has the potential to manifest itself into tragedy and misery and eternal emotional damage/scars. It sure did for her. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it seems to me like my wife wants to make him emotionally dependent on an expert and encourage him to dwell on things that aren't always perfect in his young life. Knowing her, she'll have him scheduled every week to go in and dig-up some wounds for the sake of digging-up wounds. I just don't think that's a healthy approach to raising a toddler.

If your wife things he needs this sort of "talk" therapy at his age, you need to make her think about that. My DS is only 26 months (so just over 2) but I can't imagine him being ready for this kind of introspective therapy by age 3... or 4 or 5 or 6...

I suspect her desire to get him into therapy is more related to behavior -- see my earlier post.



x-posted again

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[scaredsilly]

BattleBornMom,

Your insight and advice is amazing! Better than any therapist I've ever seen

You wrote: "The sooner he realizes he is nothing more than a object that exists to attempt to soothe her endless emotional void, the better. *sarcasm* She already feels the (unconcious?) need to make him validate HER, not the other way around. pwBPD 'parentify' their children. The children become responsible for the parent's desires and emotional well being instead of the reverse. It is very damaging to the child because it steals away their ability to BE a child."

That's exactly what my wife's mother did to her! My wife was the one who soothed her mother when the MPD father became abusive; she never got soothed in return. It seems so selfish that her mom would wear her problems on her sleeve and make my wife take care of her to stop the pain -- when she was in pain, too. Her mom just sent her to therapy instead of dealing with the issues head-on and soothing her like she should have been doing -- as her mother.

Now her mom is revered in this house like a living martyr. My wife always tells me how much her mom "sacrificed" to make sure she grew-up safe from her dad when her mom is just as responsible for her present state of mind. And I noted in a previous post that it scares me to death when she asks her mom for marriage/relationship/child-rearing advice. The two of them are constantly talking about our toddler's natural toddler behavior and trying to figure out how to fix him. And it all makes sense in a sick and twisted way.

[BattleBornMom]

Is her mother BPD, too? It is a learned coping mechasim (maladaptive) by and large. It is not unusual for parents with BPD to "create" children with BPD.

It sounds like your wife and her mother may both be highly enmeshed/enabling BPD.

I learned the same thing from my mother -- that I was there to soothe her, not the other way around. I was very parentified in that regard. Have you read the Emotional Incest Workshop? If not, take a look at it. The scary thing is that I never even realized what happened until after I discovered my mom is likely BPD (she's undiagnosed, but I have no doubt that is what she has). After reading about how BPDs need others to soothe them and make others responsible for their emotional needs, a light bulb went off in my head:

DING! "I love my Dad. I love spending time with my Dad. I have a lot of fun with him and time together makes us both happy. However, I have NEVER, not for a minute, felt RESPONSIBLE for his emotional well being or happiness. I have ALWAYS felt responsible for mom's emotional well being. Especially when living with her. If she wasn't happy, it was my fault and my job to fix that."

Thankfully, I had my non-Dad to compare it against. It was like this massive burden was suddenly lifted off my shoulders -- at age 35! I finally gave myself permission to not drain myself dry in an attempt to make someone happy that is INCAPABLE of sustained happiness. Wow.

If I continued to buy into my uBPDs view of the world, she would be a martyr, too. How she stayed with my Dad through years of an abusive, loveless marriage for us kids. How we wouldn't have had any love or warmth in my life if it wasn't for her sacrifice (she accuses my Dad of being a very cold, unemotional man). How she stayed home during the day to take care of us kids and then worked nights so we didn't have to be in daycare. How she worked long hours at crappy jobs so we could have what we had. How she took beatings from my Dad so he wouldn't beat us. How she worked all those years and then didn't ask for anything in the divorce and let my Dad have everything.

99% of that is lies -- twisted, sick lies to make herself feel better. To gain sympathy for who and what she is now. So people will feel sorry for her and comfort her. It is a VERY big part of the FOG she creates in her children (have you read about FOG and are familiar with it?). The constant implication since I can remember is that I "owe" her, I am obligated to do what she wants and needs, if I don't she will bring on the guilt hard and heavy until I am emotionally and mentally crippled, or she will rage until I am so terrified I will do whatever it takes to make it stop (Fear Obligation Guilt).   

When (not if) your wife creates that same sort of FOG around her children, it will be very hard for them to see their way clear of it. Hopefully, by having awareness and tools at your fingertips now, you will be able to counteract some of that. Or soften the blow.

The relationship between your wife and MIL sounds scary. Do you feel threatened by it?


P.S. I am glad you find my ramblings helpful. I've lived it. So, I'm just being honest from my limited experience. But, if I can help another innocent child not face the full force of what I have, it would be amazing to me.

[Wrongturn1]

Sorry to interrupt the thoughtful analysis with a bit of silliness, but Scaredsilly, you mention your wife's desire to stop your dogs from acting like dogs, and I had to LOL b/c the description was so similar to something at our house. 

We have a very well-behaved dog, who, on occasion licks his own b@lls, just like all dogs do... but this flies all over my uBPDw, and she snaps and yells at him every time.  Her behavior would be hilarious to me, if she didn't expect me to yell at the dog over this as well... which being the codependent that I am, I typically do (time to stop that, though).

[ennie]

Scaredsilly,

First, a small child seeing a therapist is really different than a grown up seeing one.  For a child, a therapist is not someone to tell your problems to.  It is a neutral third party who can validate who you are with no repercussions that matter much.  When you validate your kid and comfort him after mommy yells, he has to see mommy get angry at daddy.  That makes it not safe to get validation and comfort.  If a child is with a T, playing fun games, and says something about mommy being very angry, the T can help the child know that he is fine, not bad, when mommy is angry (there are all kinds of ways that T's do this by playing and having fun, not just telling a kid how to think).  What the kid comes away with is feeling like he is ok, which is very useful if mommy is NOT okay with his normal behavior.  If mommy hates the therapist, this is far less frightening and damaging than if mommy hates daddy, not to mention the fact is most likely mommy will never know what goes in between the T and her son.  Make sure you get someone who has experience with BPD moms, so that they will know how to connect with her to help her to feel safe. 

Allowing a child to have a relationship like that also can help him/her to feel what it is like to have a relationship with someone who is not caught up in mom's drama.  A partner cannot help but get caught up in the drama.

My DH had to finally insist that the kids see a T.  His ex always wanted that, but was too afraid to find a T, afraid they would think she was a bad mom.  She chose the T, he pays.  The T made him promise that when mom hates her, which would happen at some point, he would get a court order to allow therapy to continue.  The T has made all of the difference for the kids.  You can see how much more relaxed they are when they return from seeing her.   

I also want to say that I am not sure that staying is the best way to protect children.  My husband stayed with his BPD wife for 7 years, partly to "protect" the children.  In that time, they got to see very dysfunctional stuff that has had a huge impact on them--seeing mommy beat up daddy and daddy not protect himself, seeing mommy rage at daddy and daddy mostly take it, seeing mommy hit herself and blame daddy, seeing mommy tell daddy he was a bad father over and over...all this stuff really does influence how the kids experience and treat mommy.  My older step-daughter treats her mom like daddy did--like she can make it better by loving her mom, and like her needs do not matter. 

My DH separated from his wife 5 years ago after she left him, and within a year, both kids' significant behavioral issues disappeared.  We have been together 4 years, and I cannot tell you how much growth and change I have seen in the kids in terms of psychological health.  SD11's learning disabilities are much better, SD7 went from being a total introvert to being very well adjusted. 

We have the kids 50% of the time.  We are currently in custody litigation, which has been awful.  The kids are having a really hard time.  Some of the old behaviors have resurfaced (lying, bed wetting for the younger SD, etc.).  But generally, they are still doing well even given the high stress.  The kids grandparents regularly comment on how much the kids seem happier than when their parents were together. 

I am not saying you should leave your partner.  Just that you should be aware that living full time with a BPD parent can be more stressful than living part time with one and the rest of the time with a stable home.  That stress can result in routine health problems (and yes, those on this board will report that many BPD folks have a lot of excessive concern over health issues, etc...in our home, the kids eventually caught on...Mommy LIKES illness!  It is fun!).

All kids love their moms and want to adjust to get their approval, attention, and to get their own needs met.  Someone with BPD can have too many requirements for that to be wholly positive.  I find that when the kids have time away from their mom, they can receive her good qualities more readily, and can better take care of their own needs. SD7, who was 2 when her parents developed separate residences, is FAR more able to love herself and move toward what feels good and away from what does not than does her sister.  When a child depends so much on someone who can go from loving and nurturing to raging and rejecting very quickly, the needs of that caretaker become all important, because the risk of being rejected or harmed feels immanent and unpredictable.  Clinging to that person feels safer than focusing on your own needs.  For SD11, this is very hard.  She will do anything to break up a fight between her mother and others, even if it means placing herself at risk.  When the kids' mom is having a hard time, SD7 just takes some alone time, or finds a neighbor friend.  She just does not depend on mom alone the way that her sister does. 

I see this as a direct result of having one family that is safe and works things out in safe ways.  She knows the difference; also, she had the foil of her sister. 

I also see the fact that your partner works as a good thing.  This gives your son time to be with people who do things "normally," which is helpful in developing a sense that the upset is who mommy is, not who he is. 

Finally, have you read "stop walking on eggshells" or other literature addressing communicating with someone with BPD in a validating way while still being able to have boundaries?  Seems like you have, but just wanted to check. 

Daddies are very important in the lives of children.  There is a lot of literature indicating that having a dad in your life, divorced or not, improves children's self esteem, results in improved performance at sports and other activities, and puts a child less at risk for lots of teen problems.  But when mom has a possible mental illness, the stability of a sane parent can turn a desperate situation into a safe and loving one.  Under one roof, there is a degree to which a mentally ill parent can really be the dominant force.  But in any event, your role in your child's life is huge, and it is beautiful to see how seriously you are taking that role. 

[BattleBornMom]

I agree that staying in a relationship with a BPD partner is not always the best solution -- probably rarely is. My Dad stayed because he had previous experience of fighting for custody of his son (my half brother) in the courts and loosing. Despite the fact that the mother was crazy and abusive. He didn't want to risk the same thing with us girls.

I would say that if anyone chooses to leave a partner with a PD, be sure you can get primary (even full) custody. The worst case scenerio would be for the PD parent to get primary or full custody, imho. Best case scenerio for the children? The non-parent leaves and gets primary custody. Time with the PD parent is limited to visitation.

However, that is not always possible for every family.

[zoso80]

BattleBornMom,

Thank your wonderful posts! Without getting too deep into my story, my ex partner was diagnosed with BPD (it wasn't disclosed until the twilight of the relationship). At first she painted SD6 black as night. SD6 had 'problems.' SD6 was to blame for all the problems of dxBPDp so she said. SD6 looked shell shocked and was almost 2 years behind in normal development. Poor kid had no boundries, limited language and more than likely had been touched by a friend of her half brother's inappropriately. What did her mom do? Call her a liar and threaten to beat her bloody and shame her. Her mom was still doing that when the child brought it up 2 1/2 years later.

I was with dxBPDp for nearly a year.  Being a non, I had to step in and take primary parenting of SD6.  SD6 started visiting specialists and got better and better. You know whats odd? dxBPDp got WORSE! My only explanation to this was that I was blocking dxBPDp's black painting of SD6. dxBPDp COULDN'T project it on SD6. I wasn't accepting dxBPDp's projection either.

Fast forward to me saying to dxBPDp that 'I'm done' and that I was leaving. Before I could leave I knew that SD6 had no one to look out for her. Her dad isn't involved in her life and won't be for the foreseeable future. SOMEONE had to stop the nightmare the child had laid out in front of her. Being dragged to ANOTHER school, moving from place to place with her mom.  The child had already moved 5 times in six years. She'd had no stability. With me leaving dxBPDp, SD6 would be going to her 4th school and she was just in second grade!

There is a boarding school that was in the community. I started the process to see if I could get SD6 enrolled. I didn't even tell dxBPDp until the school was willing to take SD6 on a trial basis to gauge full admission (boy she was PISSED). I was working part time and  getting ready to live with my folks, plus dxBPDp was already massively splitting, manic and completely nutso. I couldn't take SD6 and since she's not biologically tied to me, there is no way I could get her mom to let me take her.

Long story short, your words about getting the kids out struck a nerve. That's what I did. SD6 went in to the boarding school. Her mom made it touch and go, since dxBPDp really didn't want it to happen - but in the end, did it. She remains there to this day. October 1st will mark one year. dxBPDp tried to remove her earlier this year, against even dxBPDp's T's wishes. My family went to court and just finished a settlement with dxBPDp. The child remains in the school indefinately via court order. My parents were even granted joint decision making and regular visitation. We have enough leverage on her, we know enough skeletons to make her squirm.

Bottom line: dxBPDp cannot jerk SD6 around anymore. Visit her yes, remove her - Not without court oversight.

I stayed out of it, because if my name was on the whole proceeding, surer than snot, we'd be in trial right now. I know it's extreme to say a child is BETTER not living with it's mother. In this case, it's absolutely better for SD6 not to be in dxBPDp's physical custody.

It may not be ideal for SD6, she's still coping with not living with her mom and now building fantasies about living with her biological family. The fantasies are just that - fantasies. They'll never happen. dxBPDp will NEVER  improve. Her history is of blame, projection, fighting, parentification of her son... etc. dxBPDp has dropped all therapies and has the Alfred E. Neuman philosophy of 'what me worry?' nothing is wrong!

SD6 is getting tons of therapy and has grown so much mentally. It's amazing. I hope this is enough for SD6 (who'll be 9 in Nov.) to break free of the terrible life.

(On a side note, SD6 has expressed anger at her mom - which is new - I knew it was there a couple years ago, now she says it - example, her mom making them move and her mom forgetting all SD6's baby pictures.  When dxBPDp returned to get them, the landlord threw it all in the dumpster and they were gone forever. So, SD6 has no pictures of her from about age 4 back. Not a single baby picture of her - nothing.)

Thank you again.
Stephanie

Time with the PD parent is limited to visitation.

[BattleBornMom]

Good for you for fighting for that little girl! :D It is impossible for her to understand that she is better where she is and not with her mom because she is just a little girl who wants her mommy. But she is better off. Of course, it would be ideal if she could live with a healthy non-PD bio mom... but that simply isn't within her realistic reach. So, not having to be painted black by her mom, having a stable place... those are important to her. More than she knows.

[zoso80]

Thanks for your reply.

It's strange now, with the settlement in place, SD6 is now her perfect precious baby.  The black that SD6 was painted was so intense between dxBPDp and her son it shocked me. After the boy went to North Carolina and dxBPDp came to live with me, SD6 was continued to be painted black.

It was so bad, dxBPDp was about halfway through putting SD6 up for adoption in Nov. of 2009.

As I worked with SD6, as she went to counseling, I worked with her schoolwork, SD6 got better and better. Meanwhile, dxBPDp got worse and worse.

Do you have any insight as to how a BPD mother can paint her child black, publicly say that the SD6 is perfect poster child for birth control then less than a year coo "I Love you sooo much" and idealize her as her precious baby?

The only thing I can think is that the black got transferred to me because I protected the child from her mother and dxBPDp just "forgot" about all the dark energy she felt and projected.

Thanks!

Good for you for fighting for that little girl! :D It is impossible for her to understand that she is better where she is and not with her mom because she is just a little girl who wants her mommy. But she is better off. Of course, it would be ideal if she could live with a healthy non-PD bio mom... but that simply isn't within her realistic reach. So, not having to be painted black by her mom, having a stable place... those are important to her. More than she knows.

[BattleBornMom]

Do you have any insight as to how a BPD mother can paint her child black, publicly say that the SD6 is perfect poster child for birth control then less than a year coo "I Love you sooo much" and idealize her as her precious baby?

I wish I understood why any pwBPD chooses to paint people black and then white. Sometimes it makes sense, but more often the reasons involve a great deal of twisted thinking that only the pwBPD is privvy to.

It probably has to do with the "I hate you, don't leave me." mantra that pwBPD so often experience. As long as SD6 was with her and HERS, BPDm was free to paint her black and be as evil to her as suited her own needs. Maybe making SD6 out to be such a terror validated BPDm's view as a matyr and victim -- "I've been cursed with this terrible child and I am suffering through it as best I can. But believe me, it isn't easy! I'm a saint for doing as well as I am with this devil-child."

But as soon as SD6 was taken from her, she started playing the "Don't leave me" game. She feels abandoned by SD6 and will do ANYthing to lure her back in. It is common for pwBPD to slather on the love words and gifts and begging very thick in order to prevent someone from leaving their lives. BPDm is no longer the victim of DS6, she's now the victim of those that took SD6 from her and forced SD6 to abandon her. So, her victimhood is intact and she can paint her new persecutors black. SD6 is now the one that has left and needs to be idolized until she wants to come back to BPDm.

That's my best guess, but it is hard to say for sure. Like I said, often trying to make sense of a pwBPD's twisted thinking is next to impossible.

[zoso80]

That makes so much sense!

My family's lawyer had a run in with dxBPDp outside the court. dxBPDp was splitting and literally spitting nails. My family was black. Our lawyer not missing a beat said, "These are people who you just trusted them to have your child for a month and you are saying these horrible things?" dxBPDp shut her mouth quickly. Other highlights of that run included the parentified 13 year old son. He confronted our lawyer FOR his mother. Our lawyer told him she didn't talk to children about adult matters.

Regarding SD6, that change from black to idealization it's confusing for her. She wants her mommy as any child that age will. Her hopes of a real family have been rekindled. Mommy now wants her and 'loves her soooooooooo much.'  It's horrible to watch the child's feelings be played with like that from a dBPDm. Take my family out of the equation, take the boarding school out, take the court out and return back to the way things were before dxBPDp came to live with me; in short order I am sure the original dynamic would reassert itself since dxBPDp could control it. Especially now that dxBPDp's son lives with her. He's the one who's screamed at SD6 that all the family's problems were because of her. dxBPDp didn't vocalize it, but projected it. The boy also has said SD6's birth screwed up everything in the family.  The boy scares me,  because he's admitted he's a mama's boy (hence, parentified) and his splitting to SD6 is disgusting. He is not good for SD6.

SD6 continues therapy, yet I fear her progress will be dispite her mother. Her mother will run interference and give that child hope when she in no way can deliver on it. SD6 was annoyed her mother 'promised' a package, yet nothing ever came in the mail. SD6 took to blaming the mail system. I have since then sent a few packages and SD6 has received them. I used it as lesson that, yes the mail system works. It might just be the package your mom said she sent, she never did. SD6 knows in the past her mom hasn't shown up/or did things she said she was going to.

Thanks again for helping me understand. Best to you.

Stephanie

BPDm is no longer the victim of DS6, she's now the victim of those that took SD6 from her and forced SD6 to abandon her. So, her victimhood is intact and she can paint her new persecutors black. SD6 is now the one that has left and needs to be idolized until she wants to come back to BPDm.

[joyous]

Hi,

I'm new to the boards and so, a little late jumping in on this post, but just wanted to share that I have a similar experience with my D, 3 and my BPDh. So I don't think it's exclusive reaction to mom. The ways that she acts out with me seem to test the rules, boundaries etc., things that I guess are pretty normal for the age group. But with him it's pretty aggressive, lots of yelling and hitting. I don't think my D is exploiting his instability but I do feel like she doesn't feel quite safe around him and that causes her to act out. A lot of his rules are inconsistent and arbitrary and he has some unfair expectations of what a 3yo is capable of. During the time of his last 'cycle' she would scream to not have to spend time with him, understandably, he was angry, critical and unpredictable. He, in turn would blame me for turning her against him. I can see how personally he takes her rejections even now, even on his 'good days'.

Also, he is constantly testing her on letters and colors and numbers, spelling and math. It drives me up a wall, but when I mention it, he says that he's not testing her and that he's not doing anything different than any of the workbooks she has. BattleBornMom's comments about needing to create a perfect child now make so much sense.

I think it's pretty interesting that you first mentioned the dogs barking. There have been certain occasions where normally friendly dogs will bark excessively at BPDh. There was even a co-workers dog who had a pretty shy disposition but would bark and then run and cower anytime BPDh entered the office. I always wondered what the dogs sensed and now I wonder if they pick up on the imbalance as well.

I'm sorry you're going through this, I know how hard it is to feel like you don't have a partner in parenting your kiddo. 

~Joyous