Are these the fruits of alienation?

[Think About It....]

That's odd. In all the years I've taken D alone to health care practitioners of all sorts, from dentists to surgeons to psychologist, I've never needed her mom's signature...never been asked.

[JustSaying]

That's odd. In all the years I've taken D alone to health care practitioners of all sorts, from dentists to surgeons to psychologist, I've never needed her mom's signature...never been asked.

[Matt]

They won't see me with the kids without consent of mother.

Yeah, I didn't get that either.  You may be inviting that response somehow.

Check your state law - maybe you can research it online or ask an attorney - and find out if that is the law or if it is each counselor's choice.

When you call to make an appointment, don't be weak or tentative - don't ask if it's OK - just call and make the appointment.  If you are asked about custody, say you have custody - which is true.  But don't bring up the subject - you are their dad and you have decided to take them to counseling.

Also, if you get a reference from somebody - your family doctor for example - you can say, "I was referred to you by Dr. X" - that may help.  You can even call one counselor, who isn't a fit for some reason, and ask for a referral to another, and then say, "Ms. Counselor referred me to you".

[marlo6277]

My DH had the same issue with the kids and counsellors.  Very strict about having BOTH parents signatures and permission in order to have the kids enter counselling.  Unless the parent seeking counselling for the kids was the sole custodial.  If it was joint? wasn't going to happen.

But we did find a counsellor who was willing to literally chase mom down, call her repeatedly and then tell her that she would sit outside her house and wait for her to return home in order to get the permission so that the kids could get the mental help they needed.  She was amazing.  Mom eventually agreed.  But it took one counsellor who was very tenacious and really looked at the kids best interest and was willing to go the extra distance to ensure it happened.

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[Matt]

Good points PDr.  Thanks.

I did go to the therapist by myself last night.  OI explained what I have going on right now and his opinion was that I have some "depressive anxiety" issues and that I need to traion my mind to suppress the bad thoughts that I manufacture inside me.  This guy does cognitive behavior and biofeedback therapy.

Having gone through TONS of useless couple's therapy with STBx, I have my guard up about any therapy.  Not sure if this guy is right for what I need or not.  Granted I've only had on appt and I think I'm leary no matter how good the sessions go - I second guess all the time.  I just don't want to waste time right now because hte clock is ticking.

I go next week for the first session of biofeedback, so I'll make a determination after that appt about whether this guy is right or not.  I've just read so many stories on here about people going thourhg several therapists to find the right one.

If you think this evaluation is correct - depression and anxiety - which makes sense under the circumstances - you have lots of treatment choices.

Talk-therapy alone is good.  If this therapist doesn't seem right for you, you have no obligation to continue with him;  you can talk to others and find one you feel good about.  Therapy won't be successful if you aren't committed to it - you have to participate actively and follow the good recommendations your therapist gives you.

Another option is medication for depression and/or anxiety. I'm super anti-med but for awhile I took Lexapro, because I realized I needed something more than what talk therapy was doing for me.  Generally medications are used together with talk-therapy - the combination is more powerful than either alone.

If you believe that you are dealing with some degree of depression and/or anxiety, you should take that seriously, because it can become a downward spiral - you're depressed because of stuff that has happened, and that makes you less effective in your life and relationship, so things get worse - you make bad choices and don't get things done - and that makes you more depressed.

You can interrupt the downward spiral but it ain't easy - been there done that got the t-shirt - it ain't easy.  You can't just assume that it will pass.  You have to take the bull by the horns and get the help you need, and work at it, til you get your spiral going upward instead of downward - therapy and/or meds help a little, and exercise, and you become a little more effective - make better choices - your relationships improve - that lifts your spirits - lather rinse repeat.

If you're like me, one hurdle to get over is the "depression" label.  I viewed it as lazy people who don't like to get out of bed and get things done.  That was never me.  I was super-sad but I knew why - bad things had happened which were out of my control - and I didn't view my sadness as inappropriate.

My counselor agreed with that and called it "situational depression" - bad stuff happens so you feel bad.  Duh.  Perfectly normal reaction to events.

Still, there is a chemical phenomenon in the brain - depression changes the chemistry of your neurobabble whatever - not a doctor here so bear with me - so the phenomenon is a very real, physical thing that is not always possible to fight successfully without some help - talk therapy and/or meds.  Once you know you are dealing with this, you want to get the right tools in your kit to turn it around.  Whether that's biofeedback I don't know - no experience with that - or DBT which I think is very effective - and maybe meds for a period of time if you decide that is needed.

(I am of the opinion that meds like this should only be used til you get your feet under you.  Some doctors will prescribe them on an ongoing basis but my choice was to use Lexapro only for about a year, then to slowly reduce the dosage and stop.  I did not want to be on meds longer than necessary.)

[Brer Rabbit]

That's odd. In all the years I've taken D alone to health care practitioners of all sorts, from dentists to surgeons to psychologist, I've never needed her mom's signature...never been asked.

Its that way in some places...I have run into it as well...but did find other services. Basically what I had to do is be completely up front...I took D5 (well 4 at the time) in and said "We got some issues goin on here...do you offer divorce counseling for kids?" What I found is that the more upfront one is...the less likely someone is to think that there are alterior motives with a parent. The other thing is that in my state at least, if you use your employee benefits you cannot by denied care...including dependents. Just so happens I had to change health care last month so I am in the process of assigning new providers. The neverending fluidness of life...

[marlo6277]

The other thing is that in my state at least, if you use your employee benefits you cannot by denied care...including dependents.

Excellent point BR 

[scraps66]

Ah - I need consent becasue STBx covers their healthcare!

[Matt]

Ah - I need consent becasue STBx covers their healthcare!

Hm...I still don't understand.

I cover my kids' healthcare, but that doesn't mean I control it completely.  I gave my ex a copy of their insurance cards - or even if she knew the carrier and could call them and get the group # and policy # - she can take the kids to the doctor and give them that information and I won't know about it til she (or more likely the kids) tell me.

So do you have that information - the insurance company, group #, and policy #?  If not you probably have the right to that information.

Then you can take them to any healthcare provider that takes that insurance, and give them the information, and get the care the kids need.

I would not suggest telling the kids not to tell Mom.  (At those ages, if there is a delay before they see Mom again, the subject might not even come up.)  No secrets or lies.  But if she tries to interfere in your wise efforts to get the kids help - not help for a diagnosed "problem" but just help - that is on her.  Keep trying, if you think it's the right thing to do.  (And from what you have written it sounds like a good thing.)

[scraps66]

Oh yes I do have copies of the cards.

[JustSaying]

Ah - I need consent becasue STBx covers their healthcare!

D's mom also provides the health insurance. When I talked with a T for me, I first made sure that would not get to W. And when I took D, I said to the T, "D's mother and I are getting a divorce, it's contentious, D is experiencing disturbing behaviors from her mom, and I want to make sure she has al the help she needs to deal with this, particularly for those times when her mom will have visitation." I told W I'd made an appointment to help D with issues surrounding the divorce. No one said boo, so that's what we did.

[Matt]

Oh yes I do have copies of the cards.

So you call the counselor - you can go through the insurance company to get a list of providers in your area - and you make an appointment.  You show up with the insurance information and if you are asked you state that you have custody (true).  I will be surprised if anyone pries out of you that it's shared custody, but even if they do, you can state, "We have shared custody so there is no problem."

Don't take any BS, unless they can cite something in the law that you aren't aware of - you are there to get care for your kids and they do not have the right to turn you away.

You might even play the sex card if nothing else works - "If a mother brought her kids would you turn her away, or do you only do this to dads?" - that might get them thinking about the legal risk they are taking on by discriminating based on sex.  Ten-to-one you get an apology and they make up the time at the end of your appointment.

The issue is what will be best for the kids.  If you decide that it would be best for them to be in counseling, take them.

[marlo6277]

You might even play the sex card if nothing else works - "If a mother brought her kids would you turn her away, or do you only do this to dads?" - that might get them thinking about the legal risk they are taking on by discriminating based on sex.

You're feisty today, Matt!    (but I do understand where this statement comes from.  I've been witness to plenty of sexual bias when it comes to my DHs situation)

   Marlo

[PDrUs]

We need to get you into proper therapy.

Why are you going through biofeedback? My son did that for ADHD and I'm really not sure why a proper T would be doing that for you.

What are this T's qualifications? Professional designations?

Biofeedback is a contraversial treatment at best with very little science supporting it and I see this as a huge red flag.

[Matt]

You might even play the sex card if nothing else works - "If a mother brought her kids would you turn her away, or do you only do this to dads?" - that might get them thinking about the legal risk they are taking on by discriminating based on sex.

You're feisty today, Matt!    (but I do understand where this statement comes from.  I've been witness to plenty of sexual bias when it comes to my DHs situation)

   Marlo

Yeah, I'm finding this thread a little therapeutic my own self...

But seriously, we nons are so used to accepting mild abuse that we can continue in that pattern in other parts of our lives.  Many here say of their attorneys, for example, "She's not doing what I need her to do but when I try to talk to her about it she doesn't respond." - stuff like that - mildly abusive behavior by professionals who should be providing the services we need - and we accept it, maybe because we're stuck in that pattern...

So here's a health care provider, and Dad brings in the kids for help, and the provider says, "You have to ask Mom because she's in charge."  Unless the law says that, that's just wrong, and possibly illegal - denying care because of the parent's sex or some other invalid reason.

[vre]

Scraps,

I'd suggest that you make an appointment and go see a physician about your own anxiety and/or depression. Medications for either of these can be quite effective, and made a huge difference in my own ability to manage my situation.

[scraps66]

Correct vre, I am going to stick to the therapy starting next Monday, keep an open mind and see what happens.

[marlo6277]

But seriously, we nons are so used to accepting mild abuse that we can continue in that pattern in other parts of our lives.  Many here say of their attorneys, for example, "She's not doing what I need her to do but when I try to talk to her about it she doesn't respond." - stuff like that - mildly abusive behavior by professionals who should be providing the services we need - and we accept it, maybe because we're stuck in that pattern...

So here's a health care provider, and Dad brings in the kids for help, and the provider says, "You have to ask Mom because she's in charge."  Unless the law says that, that's just wrong, and possibly illegal - denying care because of the parent's sex or some other invalid reason.

You are right.  I've witnessed this occur in my own DHs sitch.  From the therapists to the judge, to school officials and everyone in between.  It's a constant battle. And it does take someone who is willing to challenge these people in order to get results.  

In my DHs sitch, it was me who had to bring it to the lawyer's attention that what he was doing was unacceptable. (not doing what his client asks and pays him to do)  It was not until I threatened to find another lawyer who was willing to do what the client requested that he changed his outlook and did what was asked of him.  Since I paid for the lawyer, I had some clout.  And the lawyer knew I was serious.

Same with therapists.  It wasn't until we searched around for a therapist who was willing to look at it from an unbiased perspective that something got done.  She saw the damage being caused and so she acted. If it weren't for her, we likely would have never been in a position to have custody change hands.

The judge - well, I can't say much for her.  There are only 2 judges and you can't really shop for a new one. You get who you get.

So we took advantage of the other people who were willing to help.

And my own DH is very complacent with things he should not be complacent about.  But we're working on that.  

[scraps66]

PDr yes I am leary of the biofeedback, there is also cognitive behavior and "mindfulness" therapy that this guy administers.  He is a Dr.  I just want to make sure he's not selling me something that is more his expertise, but may not be the best treatment.

I did end up breaking off my relationship last night, and I was amazed how relieved I felt afterward.  Though I did not hope for this outcome, it is obvious this was causing me more grief than enjoyment.

[JustSaying]

As you follow a treatment plan, make sure you're clear on the underlying problem you're trying to solve. When I sought out a T, I had a clear goal, and we kept everything directed toward that goal. I didn't branch off into tangents that would excite Jung and Freud. Maybe there are issues there and maybe not, but they weren't the present issue. It kept T focused on addressing the immediate situation and we handled it rather directly in two or three sessions. Be careful that you don't get put into treatments simply because those are treatments they provide. Make sure they are ways to specifically move you toward your goal. Remember, if someone's only tool is a hammer, you're gonna get nailed, and if their only tool is a screwdriver, you're gonna get...

Another thought is that whatever treatments are provided will likely come out in depositions or court. Do what's necessary and avoid what's not. Others have eloquently explained how they found treatment for depression and other issues to be helpful to them. That's good stuff. Treatments without such a clear purpose as that might not be as good for you or look as good in court.

Also, I'm sorry for the end of your relationship. I hope you find all you want. The relief you felt may be a signal that this is not a perfect time for that sort of complication. It wouldn't be for me right now. I couldn't keep track of the needs of another adult...wouldn't have anything to offer them presently.

[Matt]

As you follow a treatment plan, make sure you're clear on the underlying problem you're trying to solve.

Yes - what problem you're trying to solve, or to manage.

Under the circumstances, I don't know if depression and anxiety even should be "fixed".  You are going through a difficult time, and things aren't the way you want them to be, and not everything is under your control.  It may be healthy and appropriate to experience some unpleasant feelings - sadness and concern about the future.  For me, it has been a process of managing those feelings and not letting them spiral into dysfunction (again).

I think JS is also right on target about treatment likely to be discussed in the legal process, but I would not worry about that.  

My choice was to be completely open about it - I signed a release so our CE could talk with my counselor, and in depositions I answered every question truthfully (but briefly).

It didn't hurt me at all;  in fact, by presenting it as, "Some bad things happened, and I became depressed, so I got help, and followed the recommended steps, and now I'm doing better", I think it was a net positive, especially compared to my wife's much more serious issues and her choice not to accept the recommended treatment.