Are these the fruits of alienation?

[Think About It...]

I am in a place where I am truthfully not enjoying my children, S4 and S6.  I have been back in my marital residence since June 1 after 15 months living elsewhere while STBx, and eventually her boyfriend lived in the marital residence – while I paid the mortgage.

STBx has taken the course of MOTY and has immensely supported new bf’s relationship with my children.  I NEVER got the level of support that this guy is getting.  The kids like the guy, I know him, he is a nice guy – just doesn’t know what he is getting into.  It is my opinion that STBx lured this guy strictly to use as a tool to alienate me.  He is not the type of guy she would go for, has his own business, but works little.  Works out of the house and STBx had very early on, five months after my leaving, introduced the kids to this guy, started going on camping trips with him, he was sleeping with her in the house while the kids were there – just five months after me leaving. 

I struggle with my kids, especially S6.  STBx had for years been making me out to be the bad guy so S6 has a tough time with me, and vice versa.  I have a tough time “parenting” S6 due to the fact that he has been conditioned for five years that I am not to be listened to.  I was always being overruled and undermined by STBx in front of S6. 

I find myself in some cases not looking forward to my kids' arrival because we are so distant.  It has been nothing but a competition between households.  The showering with gifts and tons of toys at STBx's, along with the video game king boyfriend.

So now it is difficult for me, I find S6 to be oppositional a lot, no matter what I try to get him to do.  He’s got issues with bowel control, so he resists when I try to use the same tactics that STBx claims are working for her.  He won’t eat the foods I cook in some cases making up reasons not to eat what I make.  I find S6 “questioning” my judgement a lot, “why are you doing that…….do we have to go……..why did you do it that way?”  Also, S6 seems to like to let me know when I’m wrong or when I did something incorrectly, speaking to me in almost a sarcastic tone.  In some cases if I tell him to do something, he just nods his head and says, “no.” 

I also have a difficult time engaging either child in activities, anything, playing games, playing sports, going for bike rides, going for walks.  Now I also do have the two boys disagreeing with each other on activities, one says he wants to go to the pool, the other says he doesn’t.

With more time I can come up with better examples, but does this sound like alienation taking root?

I’m at a bad place, low self-confidence, 18 month relationship going sour right now too.  One reason of the r/s going south is the prospect of dealing with STBx down the road.

[scraps66]

I am in a place where I am truthfully not enjoying my children, S4 and S6.  I have been back in my marital residence since June 1 after 15 months living elsewhere while STBx, and eventually her boyfriend lived in the marital residence – while I paid the mortgage.

STBx has taken the course of MOTY and has immensely supported new bf’s relationship with my children.  I NEVER got the level of support that this guy is getting.  The kids like the guy, I know him, he is a nice guy – just doesn’t know what he is getting into.  It is my opinion that STBx lured this guy strictly to use as a tool to alienate me.  He is not the type of guy she would go for, has his own business, but works little.  Works out of the house and STBx had very early on, five months after my leaving, introduced the kids to this guy, started going on camping trips with him, he was sleeping with her in the house while the kids were there – just five months after me leaving. 

I struggle with my kids, especially S6.  STBx had for years been making me out to be the bad guy so S6 has a tough time with me, and vice versa.  I have a tough time “parenting” S6 due to the fact that he has been conditioned for five years that I am not to be listened to.  I was always being overruled and undermined by STBx in front of S6. 

I find myself in some cases not looking forward to my kids' arrival because we are so distant.  It has been nothing but a competition between households.  The showering with gifts and tons of toys at STBx's, along with the video game king boyfriend.

So now it is difficult for me, I find S6 to be oppositional a lot, no matter what I try to get him to do.  He’s got issues with bowel control, so he resists when I try to use the same tactics that STBx claims are working for her.  He won’t eat the foods I cook in some cases making up reasons not to eat what I make.  I find S6 “questioning” my judgement a lot, “why are you doing that…….do we have to go……..why did you do it that way?”  Also, S6 seems to like to let me know when I’m wrong or when I did something incorrectly, speaking to me in almost a sarcastic tone.  In some cases if I tell him to do something, he just nods his head and says, “no.” 

I also have a difficult time engaging either child in activities, anything, playing games, playing sports, going for bike rides, going for walks.  Now I also do have the two boys disagreeing with each other on activities, one says he wants to go to the pool, the other says he doesn’t.

With more time I can come up with better examples, but does this sound like alienation taking root?

I’m at a bad place, low self-confidence, 18 month relationship going sour right now too.  One reason of the r/s going south is the prospect of dealing with STBx down the road.

[Matt]

One thing we all struggle with is shifting our focus, after years of conflict with the pwBPD, to the kids.  When we're with the kids the other parent's shadow is over us all the time.

You can know what you know - and suspect what you suspect - about your ex, but keep your focus here-and-now on the kids.  If you can spend some time with each of them individually, that will help, because when they're together - at least this is how my kids have always been - they are competing for your attention not really interacting with you.

Keep supporting them and providing the type of structure you think is right - bedtimes, meals, etc. - you don't have to defend your decisions or negotiate with the kids (or with the shadow of their mom).

Watch and listen, and notice each kids' needs - what's going on with each kid here and now - and figure out how you can meet those needs.  Don't think, "Their mom should be doing this" or "It's her fault" (though those may be valid).  Just keep your focus on what each child needs right now - what signals he is giving you - like if he shows you something he did he may be needing praise and validation, or if he moves closer to you he may be needing some physical contact.

Two of my kids (D14 and SS33) are like dogs - eager, open, touchy-feely.  The other two (S13 and SD22) are like cats - I have to wait for them to come to me - I can't get them to talk when I want them to, I have to be patient, and respond when they initiate communication or contact.  At 4 and 6 surely your kids both need to be held and hugged, and lots of praise and structure.  I think at those ages their biggest need is probably security - confidence that things will be OK - and if you give them that I think your relationships with them will get better.

[JustSaying]

It's a tough situation, scraps, but I think Matt hit the right chords. Adding one thought to that, while you're listening to them, see if you can identify one special activity with each that is unique to you and them. Might be cooking, soccer, origami, whatever. Start creating uniquely special memories that can only happen with you and them, and build from there.

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[Matt]

It's a tough situation, scraps, but I think Matt hit the right chords. Adding one thought to that, while you're listening to them, see if you can identify one special activity with each that is unique to you and them. Might be cooking, soccer, origami, whatever. Start creating uniquely special memories that can only happen with you and them, and build from there.

Yeah, this has worked really well for me - harder when the kids are younger but finding stuff like this is great.

My S13 and D14 both cook one meal a week - they choose what to have, I take them to the grocery store and they get the stuff - and they make the whole meal.  (On the weekend so there's plenty of time.)

They also both got into gardening this summer, and they both play the guitar.  S13 and I like some of the same movies and he comes up with projects I can help with, like recently he made a "thumb piano".

When they were younger it was tougher, but maybe they can help by organizing the silverware drawer, or setting the table, folding napkins...

Or you can find craft projects - at about 8 my son was very into origami for example, and later he made billions of balloon animals.

I take them to a used bookstore and let them pick out two books each.  Often they surprise me by what they pick;  there are so many to choose from it really lets them have lots of choices.

And kits - at about 6 or 7 both kids were very into kites for a couple of summers.

Depending where you live, snowmen or snow forts in the winter.

You can suggest things, or listen and try to support their ideas - if they see a kite on TV and say, "Can we make a kite?" - even if you're not crazy about the idea, make yourself support it if it's practical - "Maybe.  Let's go to Wal-Mart tomorrow and see if they have any - OK?"

[JustSaying]

The trick is to find things that they don't do with other adults and then hope that other adults don't try to play "can you top this?" with that same activity with the child.

[Matt]

The trick is to find things that they don't do with other adults and then hope that other adults don't try to play "can you top this?" with that same activity with the child.

Good point.

I married her mom when SD22 was 6.  She spent every other weekend with her biodad.  One of his things was to take her to the comic book store.  She was really into the X-Men, especially Storm - it was funny to hear her talk about that.

I had to force myself to let that be - not take her to get comic books when she was with us - let that be her dad's thing, and find other stuff to do with her.  He and I never had problems, and I think it was because we both did that - whether he did it consciously or not - the stuff I did with her, like games and later tai kwon do - he didn't do those things with her.  So there was no tug-of-war - she got different stuff from each of us.

[sunnywind]

i know exactly how you feel. when my own kids came to my house they used to take the mickey out of me, throw food, belittle me,run away even - Ex BPDw used to encourage the hostility  im sure and its an awful feeling . ive had no contact in years now ,well i try phoning and sending gifts/magazine subscriptions  etc but no replies to anything i do as the alienation is deep set .
 i havent read anywhere of a dad who managed to reverse the alienation,apart from reading that you must keep reaching out,in any way you can, because thats what the kids are looking for, a saviour

 The only idea i can think of is you could perhaps seek out a small club hobby that you both could go to-such as a radio controlled model car club  ,somewhere that the NEW GUY would not be able to compete at  because theres just the one club in the area . maybe take one of your sons friends along too

 

[scraps66]

Through this entire 3-yr process, which is not over yet, I am MONTHS from being divorced and don't know how many, I have gotten NO satisfactions at all.  Now I'm having difficulty enjoying my own children.

It does bring back my thoughts of a Custody Evaluation and how that would go.  The thought of these children being "preyed upon" and manipulated by their mentally ill mother just makes me ill.  Almsot judtifying the expense of a CE - but I've already got 50/50 joint legal custody, but, the orders are not being followed at all and there have been no consequences.

I am now looking forward to a contempt hearing in October, the second, to force STBx to get her court-ordered psych eval.  She has been avoiding for a year now.

[Matt]

Through this entire 3-yr process, which is not over yet, I am MONTHS from being divorced and don't know how many, I have gotten NO satisfactions at all.  Now I'm having difficulty enjoying my own children.

It does bring back my thoughts of a Custody Evaluation and how that would go.  The thought of these children being "preyed upon" and manipulated by their mentally ill mother just makes me ill.  Almsot judtifying the expense of a CE - but I've already got 50/50 joint legal custody, but, the orders are not being followed at all and there have been no consequences.

I am now looking forward to a contempt hearing in October, the second, to force STBx to get her court-ordered psych eval.  She has been avoiding for a year now.

What is the status of the custody situation?  Have you agreed to 50/50 or are you seeking more?

Is there a way to show evidence of alienation?

How much do you think a CE would cost?t

Maybe you can keep the pressure on for her to do the psych eval, and see how her psych eval looks;  if it looks bad (for her) then seek primary on that basis.

Early in our case, I foolishly agreed to EOW for me.  I didn't even realize I had done it - I was just stunned and so upset I didn't know what I was doing.  Later I realized it was a huge mistake and I filed for full custody.  My wife's lawyer said, "You can't do that - you already agreed to EOW."  I argued that things had changed - I had new information - our marriage counselor had told me about BPD and that my wife appeared to have most of the criteria - she literally pulled the DSM-IV off her shelf and read me the criteria, and then told me to read "Stop Walking On Eggshells" (which brought me here).

My argument was, now I was aware of my wife's disorder, and the likely impact on the kids - and my wife had refused to acknowledge it or get help - it would be irresponsible of me to let her have primary custody.  My wife of course said I was lying.  Both lawyers agreed to call the MC together - I gave my lawyer my detailed notes on what the MC had told me - and the MC confirmed what I had said.  My wife's lawyer backed down and said my agreement to accept EOW would not stand up and we had to come to a new agreement.

My point is, if your wife's psych eval shows BPD or some other disorder, that may be a very good opportunity for you to say, "This disorder is serious and is already affecting the kids.  We need to come to an agreement that will protect them."

Have you read "Understanding The Borderline Mother"?  It may help to follow up by finding some of the research papers it refers to, and any other scholarly research showing the impact of BPD and other disorders on the kids - the long-term risks, like much higher risk of substance abuse later in life, and other problems.  With that evidence, and maybe an expert witness to get that stuff in front of the court so the court can't ignore it, you may be able to make a strong case for primary custody, or even supervised visitation for their mom.

Also, it may help to get the kids into counseling now, and keep them in counseling consistently for the next several years.  It might take time for them to open up to someone, and when they do, the counselor may be able to help them get through this.

[JustSaying]

Now I'm having difficulty enjoying my own children.

Any thoughts on the suggestions offered? Any chance you and kids can find enjoyable activities unique to y'all?

What's your plan for turning this part around? What are two or three things you can do at your next time with them to all have a good time together? You start with one successful moment and build on that...what's something that can create a single success?

[Brer Rabbit]

I am really not the best person for advice regarding ex's new SO...the only thing I would say is to be careful that youre not alienating yourself. If you are not enjoying your time with your sons...those are your feelings...own them yourself. Easier said then done...I know. But my kids tend to feed off of my emotions...kinda see/do type thing.

I hafta sometimes fake it and go Jim Carrey on cleaning house . Doesnt always work...and requires an intense amount of caffeine...but we dont get a lot of time to do activities given their ages...and when we get to do activities...its not very much fun for me cause Im usually running after D2. So, ex's bf maybe able to appear to be more...but only daddy can take his girls (or in your case boys) through a wild safari in the untamed land of the grocery store 

The other thing I would say...is what are you doing when you dont have your boys? When I had 50/50 with my girls...this was a kinda an issue. I wasnt having any fun. I wasnt taking care of me. I wasnt getting out...I was probably the whitest shade of pale for living in SoCal. I didnt have any hobbies...so I had to develope some. Now, I havent really gotten a chance to develope much...but I went out and got a surf board off craigslist for $80...and just recently I got D5 a buggie board. I have lived in SoCal next to the ocean for almost 8 years...not once rode a wave. I also figure...hey this is probably something that as soon as things settle a bit me an the girls could do together...something I could kinda pass down. Its relatively cheap and we live within walking dist to the beach...so why not...I think that sometime we get so caught up in being super parents that we forget what makes good parents...and I beleive that to be the ability to pass on a piece of ourselves to our kids.

[Matt]

I am really not the best person for advice regarding ex's new SO...the only thing I would say is to be careful that youre not alienating yourself. If you are not enjoying your time with your sons...those are your feelings...own them yourself. Easier said then done...I know. But my kids tend to feed off of my emotions...kinda see/do type thing.

I hafta sometimes fake it and go Jim Carrey on cleaning house . Doesnt always work...and requires an intense amount of caffeine...but we dont get a lot of time to do activities given their ages...and when we get to do activities...its not very much fun for me cause Im usually running after D2. So, ex's bf maybe able to appear to be more...but only daddy can take his girls (or in your case boys) through a wild safari in the untamed land of the grocery store 

The other thing I would say...is what are you doing when you dont have your boys? When I had 50/50 with my girls...this was a kinda an issue. I wasnt having any fun. I wasnt taking care of me. I wasnt getting out...I was probably the whitest shade of pale for living in SoCal. I didnt have any hobbies...so I had to develope some. Now, I havent really gotten a chance to develope much...but I went out and got a surf board off craigslist for $80...and just recently I got D5 a buggie board. I have lived in SoCal next to the ocean for almost 8 years...not once rode a wave. I also figure...hey this is probably something that as soon as things settle a bit me an the girls could do together...something I could kinda pass down. Its relatively cheap and we live within walking dist to the beach...so why not...I think that sometime we get so caught up in being super parents that we forget what makes good parents...and I beleive that to be the ability to pass on a piece of ourselves to our kids.

Yup - excellent ideas.  If your kids see you not having fun (at least sometimes) that could be an issue.  Taking care of yourself and truly enjoying and appreciating the kids as they are - while also providing them with the structure they need - not always easy but definitely worth it.

"Jim Carrey" - yeah, being silly and entertaining the kids is part of the deal - not always easy when we've been through battles (or still going through battles) with the other parent.  But if you can find that silliness in you somewhere, now is the time - at these ages - when it can make a big difference.

When my kids were little, and I got them dressed, I used to "lose" my son's pants.  I made a big deal out of looking everywhere for them.  All the time they were on my head, like a stocking cap, with the legs flopping around.  He laughed at that for about a year and then I had to develop a new schtick.

[david]

Finding a schtick that works especially with humor helps defeat alienation. It takes time but it did work for me too. Once they begin to realize that dad is okay and fun they start to loosen up. My BPDw raised the ante when I started getting thru to our kids and that only backfired on her. I never competed with her on money and buying things for our kids. I get them things but BPDw has to one up me when I do. A good example is I bought the kids walkie talkies for Christmas two years ago so we could talk to each other when they were at their moms. They were good quality items and they cost a decent amount of money. I took the time to explain that they needed to take care of them because they would not get another set. They loved it. Within a month BPDw bought our oldest his own cell phone. They brought their walkie talkie back to my place and we use them for camping and other adventures. A few months later BPDw complained about paying a monthly fee for S10 to have a cell phone. Oh well.

[Matt]

So the lesson is:  Dads need schtick!

 

[Brer Rabbit]

Yes...dads need schticks . Mine is mimicing the Jim Carrey/Steve Carrel (sp) bit from Bruce Almighty...gets the girls every time...they go nuts. In the grocery store, we rattle of the list of what we need as loud as we can...drives EVERYONE nuts around us...but its not about them, its about the girls and it helps with D2s tantrums.

[david]

Once the ice is broken with humor I find I can then talk to them and they will listen. I oftentimes, talk about the natural progression of cause and effect and their behavior. Example, I would say it was time for a shower. S8 (S6 back then) would say I was evil and the worst dada ever. I agreed and became the "evil daddy monster". I would chase him around and his older brother,of course, would jump in for the fun. In a short amount of time I would pick him up ,put him over my shoulder, carry him to the bathroom, and get him in the shower all with a smile on his face. All the time I would be saying things like, "all evil dads make their kids take showers" and other obviously ridiculous things. After the shower he was able to listen and we could talk. Over time he stopped with the evil dad stuff. It takes practice because that was not the way it was before. I had to learn to adapt and in a way that is what parenting really is. Listen to your kid, figure out what they need, find a method that works, and do it until it doesn't work anymore, then go back to step one.

[Matt]

Yes...dads need schticks . Mine is mimicing the Jim Carrey/Steve Carrel (sp) bit from Bruce Almighty...gets the girls every time...they go nuts. In the grocery store, we rattle of the list of what we need as loud as we can...drives EVERYONE nuts around us...but its not about them, its about the girls and it helps with D2s tantrums.

http://www.viddler.com/explore/loopytube/videos/180/

[PDrUs]

You should consider a therapist for your kids. They may open up to a trusted adult where they won't open up to you. A therapist will help them, and you, to find creative ways to deal with the issues that your ex presents in a healthy way.

I find the more people involved in the best interests of my children, the better chance you will have of keeping and improving the relationship you have with your kids.

What resources do you have in your area for childrens mental health?

Given the choice, I would spend money on therapists for the kids and myself instead of the CE. The CE will only result in an opinion you can use in court, the therepist will provide lasting mental health relief for you and your children.

[scraps66]

Good ideas all, thanks.

BrerRabbit we have some things in common, I have not been pursuing my hobbies at all, or developing others, or getting out to meet people.  I am at a bad spot in that I believe a nice relationship I started 18 months ago is fizzling.  She's decided to train for a marathon (with a group of guys I might add) and it's been difficult to see each other.  But a hint, she's been overwhelmed, but she's training for a marathon - running is her therapy.  I'm trying not to take it personally.  So that has been playing on my mind for over a month now.  I have to get past this.

I am seeing a therapsit tonight, for me, but jsut this weekend after a bout with my S6 where he told me he didn't "want me" I'm thinking hard about that now.  I was foolish a year ago when I tried to get him some help assuming I just had to go through the court system.  I don't, I can just take him myself if I find a counselor who will allow me to without STBx consent.

So I definitley have some work on ME.  It's just so tough to msuter the energy and courage to do these things when you're so down.  I will though.     

[david]

It's a marathon scrapps and not a sprint. I have my ups and downs too. I think a T for you can help. It took me 4 T's before I found one that clicked. It also helped that the 4th T specialized in mood disorders. The T got what I was saying a lot faster than the other T's. This helped because she could give me methods to deal with BPDw. Once I was detached enough I could figure out where I wanted to go.

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