Are these the fruits of alienation?

[Think About It...]

Its hard...no doubt. And I am dealing with some of the same...fun times with mom and new bf...D5 naturally wants those fun times. I feel alienated too, eventhough I have at least 85% custody, because I feel like ex basically let go of all parental responsibility so she can sit back and watch me drown and come out the "good parent" in all this.
But I hafta realize those are MY feelings...feelings of inadequency...feelings of its always greener on the other side...etc.
Its double hard cause it feels like psych warfare...some battles you fight externally...and some battles you fight internally...knowing the difference and what to internalize vs externalize...its just hard. I dont think anyone has the answer...just ideas and personal experiences.

One thing we all struggle with is shifting our focus, after years of conflict with the pwBPD, to the kids.  When we're with the kids the other parent's shadow is over us all the time.

The other thing I notice about myself is that I also tend to jump the gun on trying to shift focus...either I am not ready or detached from the conflict enough...or the conflict just plain isnt over.

[Brer Rabbit]

Its hard...no doubt. And I am dealing with some of the same...fun times with mom and new bf...D5 naturally wants those fun times. I feel alienated too, eventhough I have at least 85% custody, because I feel like ex basically let go of all parental responsibility so she can sit back and watch me drown and come out the "good parent" in all this.
But I hafta realize those are MY feelings...feelings of inadequency...feelings of its always greener on the other side...etc.
Its double hard cause it feels like psych warfare...some battles you fight externally...and some battles you fight internally...knowing the difference and what to internalize vs externalize...its just hard. I dont think anyone has the answer...just ideas and personal experiences.

One thing we all struggle with is shifting our focus, after years of conflict with the pwBPD, to the kids.  When we're with the kids the other parent's shadow is over us all the time.

The other thing I notice about myself is that I also tend to jump the gun on trying to shift focus...either I am not ready or detached from the conflict enough...or the conflict just plain isnt over.

[Matt]

I am seeing a therapsit tonight, for me, but jsut this weekend after a bout with my S6 where he told me he didn't "want me" I'm thinking hard about that now.  I was foolish a year ago when I tried to get him some help assuming I just had to go through the court system.  I don't, I can just take him myself if I find a counselor who will allow me to without STBx consent.

Let's talk about this...

I first took my kids, then 8 and 10, to see a counselor shortly after we separated.  I knew my wife was telling them things that weren't true and I was concerned, but I was seeing them very often too, so not too concerned.

I went to talk to their school counselor, who knew them better than I expected.  She recommended a counselor for them - a woman in private practice who had been the counselor at that school before this one.

I took the kids to see that counselor for a couple of years, twice a month at first and then less.  I didn't consult with my wife or my lawyer;  I thought my lawyer would tell me to take it up with the court and that would take forever and be a mess.  If I talked with my wife about it, that would be a mess too.  So I just did what I thought was best for the kids.  It worked well - the counselor was a good resource for the kids and for me too.

A couple of suggestions...

First, examine your motives and make sure you are doing it to help the kids - build their strength and give them skills - and maybe to get some help in your parenting skills too - not to win a fight with their mom.  The counselor probably won't testify or play any role in the custody fight, and if you go into it looking for an ally that may backfire.

Also, consider finding a neutral person - the school counselor in my case - who can recommend a counselor for the kids.  That way you can't be accused of shopping for someone who will take your side.

Don't keep it a secret - don't tell the kids not to tell anyone - and if they counselor wants to talk to their mom say OK.  But don't mention it to your wife either, or it will be one more thing to fight about.

Don't present it as a solution to a problem - though it may be - because then you will be challenged to prove there is a problem.  Instead, if you are asked about it, say it's something you think may help the kids - not "They have a problem" but "I think counseling will help them."  Sounds like a fine point but then you don't have to prove there's something wrong with them.  (Like getting your teeth cleaned by a hygienist, not having them pulled by a dentist.)

[scraps66]

With everything going on now, I'm also losing my cool with them more than I should.  This I need to address as well.

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GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[Matt]

With everything going on now, I'm also losing my cool with them more than I should.  This I need to address as well.

How can you do that - what can you do to make it easier to deal with them - and all kids that age are a challenge to deal with - and not lose your cool?

[scraps66]

Well, I could get a lot better prepared for them - food and clothing on school mornings.  I could plan better for them - load the weekends up with play dates and scheduled activities.

The rest is just ME I think, taking care of me who takes care of them.  I need more patience and skills.

[Matt]

Well, I could get a lot better prepared for them - food and clothing on school mornings.  I could plan better for them - load the weekends up with play dates and scheduled activities.

The rest is just ME I think, taking care of me who takes care of them.  I need more patience and skills.

Yeah, being prepared better will help.  My kids are old enough to own a lot of their issues - make their own lunches for school for example - but yours need you to do all the planning til they're older.  Maybe you could make some lists - stuff you need, laundry, whatever - and get a head-start on the weekend, or when they're not with you, so when they come you can focus on them...

What about that second part - "ME" - what can you do about that?

[scraps66]

The ME part, exercise for one.  I've known that this would give me more energy and motivation for a long time - but I just don't do it.  Getting out more too.

And this relationship thing has really taken the fire out of me for the last two months - so that needs to end or be fixed. 

I have mostly bad things going on right now, work sucks, relationship is broken, not enjoying kids, kids not enjoying me, STBx alienating, etc.

[Matt]

The ME part, exercise for one.  I've known that this would give me more energy and motivation for a long time - but I just don't do it.  Getting out more too.

And this relationship thing has really taken the fire out of me for the last two months - so that needs to end or be fixed. 

I have mostly bad things going on right now, work sucks, relationship is broken, not enjoying kids, kids not enjoying me, STBx alienating, etc.

Stress.

When I first saw a counselor for myself, I was under a lot of stress.  Small, demanding kids, my parents' deaths, a high-stress job and travel, a failing marriage, and my older son had just gone to prison.  I thought I was handling it OK at first, but then I experienced severe symptoms - what I described as "acute sadness" - not a dull depression, but a sharp feeling - and I realized I couldn't take it for long - I had to get help.

My counselor was very passive - so much that I thought maybe he wasn't the right guy - just got me talking about everything.  After a few sessions he explained why.  He said that when I was talking he was listening and watching for signs of stress.  When I mentioned my wife - even before I told him my marriage was bad - I tensed up.  But some other subjects, I relaxed - music, baseball, my kids.  He told me to add to those lists - all the things that stressed me and all the things that relaxed me - and then he got me to spend more time with the relaxers - more music and baseball and more time with my kids - and less time with the stressors (at least the ones I could avoid).

As an example, he had me put a baseball in my car, and another one in my office, and another one beside the bed, so that most of the time I would have a baseball in my field of view - maybe just out of the corner of my eye - a frequent reminder that there are good things in life.  Same for pictures of my kids.  Turn off cable news and turn on some music.  A bunch of small stuff, and ultimately some bigger issues - my marriage and job both had to go.

You might be able to do the same thing, either see a counselor or maybe walk through this process yourself - identify all the stuff that stresses you - and you can't get rid of it all but you can isolate the time of day you focus on each issue, and take care of it during that time, and then move on to the good stuff.

Exercise is big too!

[JustSaying]

I have mostly bad things going on right now

This comes through in much of what you write. A commonality of the things you list as going bad is that they all seem out of your control. Sucks when bad things are happening and you seem to have no influence on them.

A partial response is to find a few things you do have control over. You can walk around the block tonight, and around two blocks tomorrow. No one can stop you. You can prepare a healthy meal for dinner and another for breakfast. You can try to get enough sleep at night.

You can paint one wall in one room a color your ex never would have allowed. Or you can take the kids to Home Depot and get them to pick out a color or stencil for a wall in their room. Paint it when they're away and they'll look forward to seeing the result. Or save a small area to paint with them.

You can go to a movie. You can donate to a food bank or volunteer at a shelter. You can go to a ballgame. All of these things aren't decided by anyone but you and can get you out of your own head for a few minutes or hours. They can give you a bit of hope that improvement is possible.

[Matt]

I have mostly bad things going on right now

A commonality of the things you list as going bad is that they all seem out of your control. Sucks when bad things are happening and you seem to have no influence on them.

This is profound.

It's very stressful to not have control - to be hurt by things you can't do anything about.

And I think JS is right on target:  It will be therapeutic to build on the things you can control.

[JustSaying]

It's very stressful to not have control - to be hurt by things you can't do anything about.

Imagine how our kids feel.

[Matt]

It's very stressful to not have control - to be hurt by things you can't do anything about.

Imagine how our kids feel.

I've read that for small kids their most important need is security.

That's why we have to take care of ourselves, so we can give them that sense of security, even if things aren't as solid as we wish they were.  Deal with the issues ourselves and not expose the kids to the stress and uncertainty.

[scraps66]

I have been wondering about security, S4 insists on me holding his hand everywhere we go, asks to be snuggled, and so does S6 at times.  I have to wonder if it is the give and take of going between households and different people.

[Matt]

I have been wondering about security, S4 insists on me holding his hand everywhere we go, asks to be snuggled, and so does S6 at times.  I have to wonder if it is the give and take of going between households and different people.

Could be, but I think this is totally normal for kids that age.

I remember shortly after we separated - S13 was 8 then - he threw big fits almost every day for a few weeks.  I knew why but didn't want to be too tolerant, so I took him to his room but when he calmed down I let it go - didn't lecture him - everything's fine now.

One time after a huge fit he came out of his room to where I was sitting, sat right up by me, and put his head on my shoulder - didn't say a word, but what I got was, "I'm OK now and I love you."  His language wasn't verbal, at that moment, so I just put my arm around him and didn't say anything either.  Touch is a language - there's a great book about this called "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman - each of us needs to be communicated with in our own language, and for kids - I think boys especially - sometimes touch is the right language - they don't have the words to say, "I need support and validation right now" so you have to sense it and know that if you get it wrong they'll let you know that too - if you give a boy a hug at the wrong time he may shrug it off but no harm will be done.

Security also can come from a steady routine - not just time but place - my son didn't like it when we ate dinner in front of the TV, he wanted dinner at the dinner table - that was "normal" to him so I went with it.  Bed at the same time and place every night, etc.

[david]

My kids like routine. I think it provides them with that sense of security. S8 still holds my hand when we are out and practically sits on top of me when we watch TV together. No words , just actions.
The fact your boys want you to hold their hand and snuggle does show you haven't been alienated that bad. I think that was a good sign for you and just stay focused.
I get very frustrated with the lack of cooperation with my BPDw at times but have come to realize that this is just the way it is and it probably ain't gonna change. The only thing I can do is change the way I deal with it.

[PDrUs]

Another very good option might be a therapist that will see you all as a family. Well you and the children I mean. This might be the best way to start as the T will see better how you all interact.

You're Ex can try to legally stop you, but she will have an uphill battle trying to stop you from getting propper mental health treatment for your children and yourself. Think about it, what judge would support her with a propperly presented legal argument?

Book the appointment and don't look back. It's the right thing to do for you and your kids.

You can ask for forgivness later if you need to, you will never get permission.

[scraps66]

Good points PDr.  Thanks.

I did go to the therapist by myself last night.  OI explained what I have going on right now and his opinion was that I have some "depressive anxiety" issues and that I need to traion my mind to suppress the bad thoughts that I manufacture inside me.  This guy does cognitive behavior and biofeedback therapy.

Having gone through TONS of useless couple's therapy with STBx, I have my guard up about any therapy.  Not sure if this guy is right for what I need or not.  Granted I've only had on appt and I think I'm leary no matter how good the sessions go - I second guess all the time.  I just don't want to waste time right now because hte clock is ticking.

I go next week for the first session of biofeedback, so I'll make a determination after that appt about whether this guy is right or not.  I've just read so many stories on here about people going thourhg several therapists to find the right one.

[scraps66]

One other thing about counseling with the kids - when I tried last, no one would do that without the consent of both parents.

[Matt]

One other thing about counseling with the kids - when I tried last, no one would do that without the consent of both parents.

Or what?  What would happen if you took the kids to counseling?

[scraps66]

They won't see me with the kids without consent of mother.