DIFFERENCES|COMORBIDITY: Borderline and Antisocial Personality Disorder

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GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT This board is intended for general questions about BPD and other personality disorders, trait definitions, and related therapies and diagnostics. Topics should be formatted as a question. Please do not host topics related to the specific pwBPD in your life - those discussions should be hosted on an appropraite [L1] - [L4] board. You will find indepth information provided by our senior members in our workshop board discussions (click here).

[Abigail]

Just read a fact sheet from NAMI that said the comorbidity of BPD with ASPD and with NPD is common. It still seems strange to me to have both BPD and ASPD but I guess it does happen.
  
Abigail

[Skip]

Perspective and context.  

When asking differential questions about personality disorders or multiple personality disoredrs, it is important to ask yourself why you are asking the question and how you intend to use the information. Without this perspective and focus, the data may be overwhelming, confusing and misleading.  For example...

~ if your child is not responding to therapy, it makes sense to look more carefully into the possibility that the wrong personality disorder was diagnosed or whether there are comorbid (multiple) personality disorders at play.

~ If you are trying to get along better with your wife, it's not as important to pinpoint the specific disorder or analyze the comorbidity as it is to recognize and fully understand the problem behaviors and how to constructively deal with them.  

~ If you are recovering from a failed relationship, the important thing is often to understand which behaviors were pathologic (mental illness) and which were just the normal run of the mill problems common to failing/failed relationships - there is often a bias to assign too much to the "pathology" and not enough to common relationship problems, or the issues we created by our own behaviors.

It's helps to know that the distinctions have, historically,  are not all that neat and tidy. In a 2008 study sing the DSM-IV criteria, co-morbidity with another personality disorder was very high at 74% (77% for men, 72% for women). This is one reason why there is controversy around the DSM-IV classifications of Personality Disorders - there is so much overlap it is confusing even to professionals.  In 2013, the DSM will redefine these disorders and people that do not neatly fall into one of 6 types/patterns, will be classified as Personality Disorder Trait Specified (with a trait profile based on the following criteria)

Under the Old DSM-IV Classifications

Comorbid w/BPD-------------- Paranoid Schizoid Schizotypal Antisocial Histrionic Narcissistic Avoidant Dependent OCD More info

Men----------- 17% 11% 39% 19% 10% 47% 11% 2% 22%

Women------- 25% 14% 35% 9% 10% 32% 16% 4% 24%

Some helpful hints for sorting through this.

• General and Specific There are definitions for "personality disorder" as a category and then there are definitions for the subcategories (i.e., borderline, narcissistic, antisocial, etc.).  Start with the broader definition first.  Keep in mind that to be a personality disorder, symptoms have been present for an extended period of time, are inflexible and pervasive, and are not a result of alcohol or drugs or another psychiatric disorder - - the history of symptoms can be traced back to adolescence or at least early adulthood - - the symptoms have caused and continue to cause significant distress or negative consequences in different aspects of the person's life. Symptoms are seen in at least two of the following areas: thoughts (ways of looking at the world, thinking about self or others, and interacting), emotions (appropriateness, intensity, and range of emotional functioning), interpersonal functioning (relationships and interpersonal skills), or impulse control

• Spectrum Disorders  An extremely important aspect of understanding mental disorders is understanding that there is a spectrum of severity. A spectrum is comprised of relatively "severe" mental disorders as well as relatively "mild and nonclinical deficits".  Some people with BPD traits cannot work, are hospitalized or incarcerated, and even kill themselves.  On the other hand, some fall below the threshold for clinical diagnosis and are simply very immature and self centered and difficult in intimate relationships.

• Comorbidity Borderline patients often present for evaluation or treatment with one or more comorbid axis I disorders (e.g.,depression, anxiety disorders, bipolar disorder, ADHD, autism spectrum disorders, anorexia nervosa, bulimia nervosa). It is not unusual for symptoms of these other disorders to mask the underlying borderline psychopathology, impeding accurate diagnosis and making treatment planning difficult. In some cases, it isn’t until treatment for other disorders fails that BPD is diagnosed.  Complicating this, additional axis I disorders may also develop over time.  Because of the frequency with which these clinically difficult situations occur, a substantial amount of research concerning the axis I comorbidity of borderline personality disorder has been conducted. A lot is based on small sample sizes so the numbers vary.  Be careful to look at the sample in any study -- comorbidity rates can differ significantly depending on whether the study population is treatment seeking individuals or random individuals in the community.  Also be aware that comorbidity rates  are generally lower in less severe cases of borderline personality disorder.

• Don't become an Amateur Psychologist or Neurosurgeon  While awareness is a very good thing, if one suspects a mental disorder in the family it is best to see a mental health professional for an informed opinion and for some direction - even more so if you are emotionally distressed yourself and not at the top of your game.  

I hope this helps keep it in perspective.  

Skippy


Additional discussions...

Personality Disorders
Borderline and Paranoid Personality Disorder
Borderline and Schzoid/Schizotypal Personality Disorder
Borderline and Antisocial Personality Disorder
Borderline and Histrionic Personality Disorder
Borderline and Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Borderline and Avoidant Personality Disorder
Borderline and Dependent Personality Disorder
Borderline and Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder
Borderline and Depressive Personality Disorder
Borderline and Passive Aggressive Personality Disorder
Borderline and Sadistic Personality Disorder
Borderline and Self Defeating Personality Disorder

Other
Borderline PD and Alcohol Dependence
Borderline PD and Aspergers
Borderline PD and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder
Borderline PD and BiPolar Disorder
Borderline PD and Dissociative Identity Disorder
Borderline PD and P.T.S.D.
Borderline PD and Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD)

[RCA212]

I don't know much, so I was hoping that some of the more educated people on this board could shed some light on this - are BPD behavior and Sociopathic behavior similar at all?  What are the similarities and differences?  What specifically sets the two apart?  Can one person exhibit both? 

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT This board is intended for general questions about BPD and other personality disorders, trait definitions, and related therapies and diagnostics. Topics should be formatted as a question. Please do not host topics related to the specific pwBPD in your life - those discussions should be hosted on an appropraite [L1] - [L4] board. You will find indepth information provided by our senior members in our workshop board discussions (click here).

[Auspicious]

I don't know much, so I was hoping that some of the more educated people on this board could shed some light on this - are BPD behavior and Sociopathic behavior similar at all?  What are the similarities and differences?  What specifically sets the two apart?  Can one person exhibit both?  

By sociopathy, do you mean ASPD?

I would suggest looking at the descriptions and diagnostic criteria for both BPD and ASPD, to shed some light on your question. For now, I'll just borrow the shortest descriptions that I can crib from wikipedia

ASPD:

Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) is described by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, fourth edition (DSM-IV-TR), as an Axis II personality disorder characterized by "...a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood."

BPD:

Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a personality disorder described as a prolonged disturbance of personality function in a person (generally over the age of eighteen years, although it is also found in adolescents), characterized by depth and variability of moods. The disorder typically involves unusual levels of instability in mood; black and white thinking, or splitting; the disorder often manifests itself in idealization and devaluation episodes, as well as chaotic and unstable interpersonal relationships, self-image, identity, and behavior; as well as a disturbance in the individual's sense of self. In extreme cases, this disturbance in the sense of self can lead to periods of dissociation.

In my completely unprofessional opinion, BPD can periodically mimic ASPD, in some ways, for some individuals. I think at those times the person with BPD can be so wrapped up in their own pain and distress that they temporarily cannot consider the rights of other people.

[FriedaB]

Article taken from  http://www.sociopathicstyle.com/

1. GLIB and SUPERFICIAL CHARM -- the tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, slick, and verbally facile. Sociopathic charm is not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything. A sociopath never gets tongue-tied. They have freed themselves from the social conventions about taking turns in talking, for example.

2. GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH -- a grossly inflated view of one's abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. Sociopaths are arrogant people who believe they are superior human beings.

3. NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM -- an excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Sociopaths often have low self-discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because they get bored easily. They fail to work at the same job for any length of time, for example, or to finish tasks that they consider dull or routine.

4. PATHOLOGICAL LYING -- can be moderate or high; in moderate form, they will be shrewd, crafty, cunning, sly, and clever; in extreme form, they will be deceptive, deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous, manipulative, and dishonest.

5. CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS - the use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one's victims.

6. LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT -- a lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, coldhearted, and un empathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one's victims.

7. SHALLOW AFFECT -- emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness.

8. CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY -- a lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless.

9. PARASITIC LIFESTYLE -- an intentional, manipulative, selfish, and exploitative financial dependence on others as reflected in a lack of motivation, low self-discipline, and inability to begin or complete responsibilities.

10. POOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROLS -- expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper; acting hastily.

11. PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR -- a variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of several relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits or conquests.

12. EARLY BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS -- a variety of behaviors prior to age 13, including lying, theft, cheating, vandalism, bullying, sexual activity, fire-setting, glue-sniffing, alcohol use, and running away from home.

13. LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS -- an inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals; a nomadic existence, aimless, lacking direction in life.

14. IMPULSIVITY -- the occurrence of behaviors that are unpremeditated and lack reflection or planning; inability to resist temptation, frustrations, and urges; a lack of deliberation without considering the consequences; foolhardy, rash, unpredictable, erratic, and reckless.

15. IRRESPONSIBILITY -- repeated failure to fulfill or honor obligations and commitments; such as not paying bills, defaulting on loans, performing sloppy work, being absent or late to work, failing to honor contractual agreements.

16. FAILURE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWN ACTIONS -- a failure to accept responsibility for one's actions reflected in low conscientiousness, an absence of dutifulness, antagonistic manipulation, denial of responsibility, and an effort to manipulate others through this denial.

17. MANY SHORT-TERM MARITAL RELATIONSHIPS -- a lack of commitment to a long-term relationship reflected in inconsistent, undependable, and unreliable commitments in life, including marital.

18. JUVENILE DELINQUENCY -- behavior problems between the ages of 13-18; mostly behaviors that are crimes or clearly involve aspects of antagonism, exploitation, aggression, manipulation, or a callous, ruthless tough-mindedness.

19. REVOCATION OF CONDITION RELEASE -- a revocation of probation or other conditional release due to technical violations, such as carelessness, low deliberation, or failing to appear.

20. CRIMINAL VERSATILITY -- a diversity of types of criminal offenses, regardless if the person has been arrested or convicted for them; taking great pride at getting away with crimes.

[Willy]

A read a bit about it, but didn't find anywhere a good desciption of the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath. Does anybody have this info, or are the two terms more or less synonyms now?

Is a psycho more the planner and the socio more the impulsive one?

[FriedaB]

From what I understand a psychopath is more genetically bred (nature), whereas a sociopathic development is due to environmental factors (nuture). I know they say BPD and ASPD cant exist together (as, technically they are opposites ASPDs lacking emotion and BPDs feeling it in extremes) however,  I beg to differ. My pwBPD was TEXTBOOK low functioning borderline, but at the same time much she genuinely enjoyed hurting people.

[Willy]

I know they say BPD and ASPD cant exist together (as, technically they are opposites ASPDs lacking emotion and BPDs feeling it in extremes) however,  I beg to differ

Yes, I have seen both too. The hypersensitivity and a complete lack of emotion. She could be like an insecure 'innocent' child and the next second as cold as ice and mean. Was the first a mask or another personality? I think the child was a part of her, but also a way of getting sympathy and a learned way of disguising her dark side. She could enjoy putting other people down, she had fantasies torturing people (yet had strong submissive BDSM tendencies) and had no respect whatsoever for other peoples property.

[Lizzie]

While I believe their is much overlapping between personality disorders and also since personality is fluid not static, that there are overlapping symptoms in Pds, I also think there's a big distinction between someone who is antisocial and someone who is BPd.  Sometimes people have the same symptom, say promiscuous sexual behavior, but the reasons behind the symptom can be very different.  I think the things underlying sociopathy are quite different than BPD.  BPDs have different defense mechanisms at work and different physiological happenings.  If I recall this correctly, aspd types have an underactive amygdala while BPDs have an overactive amygdala.

Unfortunately, I dated someone who showed typical symptomology of being antisocial, yet I found that relationship to be far less damaging than when I've dealt with BPDs.  I also found him to have a very different type of personality than pwBPD I've known.  He lacked the emotional turmoil of a BPD.  He was more calculating, not at all insecure, and while I've been on the receiving end of a lack of empathy from BPDs, the antisocial guy lacked empathy and a conscious on a whole different level.    B/c my experiences with BPDs have been so hurtful, it's easy for me to feel like they are horrible and lack all emapthy, but I have to admit they have more capability to feel and care than antisocials, I believe. 

[2010]

Sociopaths charm.  Only people with a pleasurable ego are interested in charming ... putting forth a fantastic image...marking themselves as great. The "charmee" is then always put in a lower position in status. Charm is essentially a lie. And it's usually used to pull a fast one.

The Borderline isn't as self-assured.  Borderlines do not charm- they MIRROR. Because of this, they are often confused when mirroring is not enough- and the partner demands the real self to emerge. As the partner gets pulled into a persecutory role, the Borderline frantically back pedals and projects persecution to get out of the snafu. It is at that time that they show to you how they were treated as children, with victimization, persecution and rescuing behavior all on a transference triangle and projected outwardly as if to hurt and maim.  But it's unconscious behavior that is from a distorted perception or belief rather than an outright con.

If they mirror the right people, the counter-transference can be life affirming for them as a bondage persecution- but it's not done in order to get away with bad behavior like the Sociopath- it's done to prove themselves correct about their earliest and most primitive thoughts of bondage.

The partner of the Borderline often misunderstands and casts the Borderline in an anti-social (Sociopathic) role- as this is the easiest and simplest solution to split a person from good to bad and protect the Ego. In a protective ego split, the Borderline is justifiably evil- and has done horrible things on purpose- because deep down, they are bad people- flawed and evil.  But this is purely a defense mechanism of the partner.

When we judge Borderline behavior based on our own projected concept of good- and Borderline disorder usurps our concept of good, we take back the good- and put bad in it's place and it is this defense mechanism that allows us to remain safe by splitting the other party into bad.

[sm15000]

Sociopaths charm.  Only people with a pleasurable ego are interested in charming ... putting forth a fantastic image...marking themselves as great. The "charmee" is then always put in a lower position in status. Charm is essentially a lie. And it's usually used to pull a fast one

My exUBPDso charmed. . .do you think the narcissistic side associated with high functioning borderline males could do this?  There was another side to him of self-loathing and saying "he wasn't good enough for me" - would sociopaths/anti- social personalities do this?

[ellil]

My exbpdbf was the most charming and handsome person I have ever seen. He charmed everyone...especially women, wherever we went.

Yet, he had no friends. And he was WAY UNCOMFORTABLE whenever I complimented him on his looks or intelligence or charm. He also said many times he wasn't good enough for me, but narcissism would then peak through.

I believe he did learn something about his pd in therapy, but strangely he had zero friends.

As far as I know, sociopaths do not feel shame or guilt. The only identity my ex had was fundamentally shame, guilt and worthlessness. Such a waste of good.

M

[Gowest]

I like this one that tiredmommy posted: http://www.arkancide.com/psychopathy.htm It's clear and easy to understand. My ex scored a mere 14/40 - not a psychopath. But I knew he wasn't. All the things I ticked for him are the symptoms for BPD - irresponsible, poor behavior controls, lying all the time, etc.

My mother scores even lower.

I do have a real sociopath (imo) to compare them with. I think that helps. For example, if I didn't know this guy I might have given my ex 2 points for promiscuous sexual behavior. Ha. No. I still gave him 1 point, but compared to this guy my ex is a monk. (Or Hermit, more accurately.)

[2010]

Borderlines are not anti-social, they have a tremendous desire to bond with people.  Borderlines fear being alone.  They suffer annihilation fantasies and quickly try to find relief in the rewarding attachment to others.  Their intense fear of being alone causes impulsive attachments- but these are very deeply felt as significant- at least until the attachment becomes persecutorial, which it always does.  This is the crux of the disorder.  The sociopath persecutes others and relishes in his anti-social nature.  The Borderline actually grieves a badly internalized parental persecution.

The (Aspd) sociopath uses every opportunity to screw up and then elicit pity from others- as game play.  He uses pity to win- and he uses others as disposable commodities after they come to his rescue. He knows he is doing wrong and understands that he may get into trouble as it is a part of the game- which has him already factoring in a story for *why he deserves the pity* for when he gets caught.   This is a conscious manipulation that places the Aspd in a one-upmanship.  This also implies he has a sense of himself as smarter than others.  He also feels no remorse because he feels this is his due.

Borderlines don't think they are better than you- they *are* you. They choose other people to define their sense of self.  They are chameleons for attachment survival- not as con jobs.

Whatever you choose to send out to the World to define you- is picked up on and then mirrored back to you by the Borderline - to get your approval- and to bond with you. A sociopath could care less who you are and only whether or not you can be used.  A Borderline actually looks up to you.

Borderlines will retreat into detached protector mode when they are caught in omissions of truth. The detached protector mode does not have a clear understanding of the reasons why the behaviors are unsuitable which generally creates avoidance and passive aggression as defensive styles. The Sociopath knows why the behaviors are unsuitable and takes pride in the knowing.

Consequently, your understanding of your relationship should conclude whether or not this person grew up with a thought process that appears to make them masters of manipulation, keenly trained at evoking a response from others by mirroring the projection.

Since Borderlines are part-time selves- they needed your good to fuse to. And that means that a Borderline will never see you as a whole person, a friend or an ally that can be trusted because they cannot form their own whole self to do so.  Apart from you- they can only flee from their all or none thinking and their bad split of you and re-create the bond with someone else who now represents good.  

Borderline is a repetitious, compulsive, seeking part time self with an inability to suffer through the necessary abandonment depression from their parent who is now badly internalized as a punitive taskmaster who shames them for their fragmented failure to be a "self" without clinging to others and subsequently, hating them.  

In the conclusion of a Borderline relationship- you will be presented (in hindsight) with what was mirrored- and then realize that this was important enough (you projected this *firmly*) to be recognized by the Borderline (a person who survived their childhood by finding their parent's Achilles heel and with that knowledge manipulated (the parent) to give the Borderline what was needed for survival.)  Can this look like anti-social behavior? Only if the attachment bond doesn't exist- Sociopaths don't really get very far with healthy people.

Borderline is different from Aspd as it is a compulsion to acknowledge the deprived self and prove (once and for all) the possibility of a successful real self who is whole and able to be ALONE without others to attach to.  Unfortunately, their annihilation fantasies are too great and they cannot self soothe the abandonment depression- so the cycle starts all over again.

Sociopaths do not worry about being alone, in fact they relish it.

[WalrusGumboot]

Can this look like anti-social behavior? Only if the attachment bond doesn't exist- Sociopaths don't really get very far with healthy people.

In other words, it is easier to detect a sociopath and to detach. It is a recurring theme here on this forum that those that choose to leave a borderline, including yours truly, have such a hard time getting over the relationship and questioning if the love was real or not. I still have this question. From what you are saying, it IS real, but only for the purpose of helping them define who they are at the time. Am I misunderstanding something?

[Robhart]

As a quick observation the sociopath is quite proud of their  manipulation and cruelty.
The bpd  will lie or distort their behaviors so as to look good and the other person involved  to appear as at fault.They never want to be seen as they  really are and lie to everyone including themselves to keep up the false  facade.

[Willy]

My ex scores very high on the sociopath checklist, still I don't see her as a sociopath. She was hypersensitive to everything and showed shame, self loath and so on. The external behavior of ASPD and BPD can be very similar, the internal emotions are very different. I also think my ex started to mirror a sociopath (her brother) during the r/s.

[MaybeSo]

In terms of the impact on me emotionally in the moment, the difference between ASPD or BPD probably didn't matter...if it hurt or created a betrayal bond, it's not good, despite what his underlying motivation was.

However, overall, I hate thinking that he might have been ASPD and not BPD. I believe it was borderline w/ npd.  If it were just straight up ASPD, and I think back on our history, that would make him a monster.

There was a movie out about 10 years ago called In The Company of Men. I don't remember all if it but the gist of it was, an attractive man tricked an attractive woman Into believing he was seriously courting her and had sincerely fallen in love with her. He did this purposefully for sport, and had another male buddy who was in on the whole thing. He did it for sport, out if boredom, for the sex, for the hell of it and the just cause he knew he could. The woman was attractive but somewhat socially shy due to a hearing loss. So, she had a slight disability that made her a bit vulnerable and he totally exploited her just for s__ts and grins. She believed he loved her, and then when it came out this had all been a huge ruse...well to be honest I don't remember how it ended, the movie was so chilling to me when I saw it years ago I thing a blocked parts of it out.

That to me is the ultimate nightmare.

At times i really felt panicky that this is what went on between my ex and I. If he were pure aspd, this would be the kind of motivation behind his actions. Borderline may feel similarly, but the motivation would be quite different. I choose to believe it was much more borderline. I can't accept the alternative, and I would hope I could over five years know the difference between premeditated cruelty done for pure sport, and a very damaged person desperate to attach but not knowing how.

[GravitysRainbow]

Can this look like anti-social behavior? Only if the attachment bond doesn't exist- Sociopaths don't really get very far with healthy people.

In other words, it is easier to detect a sociopath and to detach. It is a recurring theme here on this forum that those that choose to leave a borderline, including yours truly, have such a hard time getting over the relationship and questioning if the love was real or not. I still have this question. From what you are saying, it IS real, but only for the purpose of helping them define who they are at the time. Am I misunderstanding something?

In another thread, MindfulJavaJoe has an excellent remark on the subject of whether they really loved us:

"My wife never loved me. She formed an attachment with me based on her needs ...  pwBPD are intensely attached but this is not love as we understand it

http://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=160374.0


What we find in so many clinical overviews of the attachment process that is typical of pwBPD is precisely that, and using another person to try to create a self, attaching to human beings only to satisfy one's own deformed psychic needs isn't, in my opinion, anything we could call "love." I'm with MJJ; it's not real love as we understand it.

As you've perhaps seen in other accounts, "a Borderline will never see you as a whole person"; in a very literal sense, they are usually largely incapable of perceiving others as anything but objects for use in those various internal psychic machinations.

Intersubjectivity (hence, love) can, by definition, only occur between two _selves_; since pwBPD don't, in a sense, have a working self, they aren't capable of intersubjectivity. They can *need* you, quite desperately - but perhaps not unlike someone with a lung ailment needs an oxygen tank, or an amputee their prosthetic. Need doesn't equal love.

That persistent questioning of whether the love was real that can dog nons for an appreciable period of time post-detachment is, as you've seen, very common, and is a natural reaction to the surreal experience of involvement with a pwBPD. Particularly given how instantaneously so many of them go from gushing, hyperbolic "You're the love of my life!" to an absolute blank stare the second the relationship ends. (The 'love lightswitch' as it's sometimes referred to on the boards.)

Many people I've spoken with find accepting that their BPD ex didn't really love them to be one of the most painful hurdles in the recovery process, but others have expressed that once they realized the love was just an illusion, they experienced a freedom and a substantive advance toward full emotional detachment/release. I hope your own journey is going well 

[FriedaB]

I also think my ex started to mirror a sociopath (her brother) during the r/s.

I never thought of that.

[sadblueeyes]

I 've been reading about sociopaths as my exBPDbf suggested his other girlfriend was one and he was angry at the time and projecting, so other than the fact that he is on medication for bipolar and he mentioned he was borderline recently, what is the difference between the 2?

I see him fitting many of the characteristics of a sociopath.

[FriedaB]

Are there any research studies regarding this ?

[GreenMango]

Frieda,

You may try looking at a university library website.  One near you is convenient if you're really interested because you can pull articles and use their research resources for free.  There are professional journal search engines and specific professional journals in psychiatry and psychology where you can keyword search "Borderline personality" and "co-morbidity" and "anti-social".  

Another option is when you find one that's close, look in the references section for what articles and books the author used.  Then you can find those ones.  This is an easier way because the author has done much of the legwork.

Hope this helps,
GM

[sheepdog]

On another thread of mine I was discussing things my friend wBPD does and the word sociopath came up.  I had read this word in conjunction with BPD in an article a few months ago.

Back then, I thought, "Nah, not my friend..."

Yesterday, just out of curiosity, I looked up sociopath.  What I found was kind of shocking.

Do people with BPD frequently or sometimes exhibit traits of a sociopath and vice versa?

Please know, I am not bashing people with BPD nor sociopaths, not trying to create drama, not looking for things, nothing like that.  I was just surprised by how very, very many similarities there were...

Thanks!

[Diggingforfire]

The standard reply is that it's always a spectrum, and that certainly both can exist at the same time, but not everyone who is one is both, etc.

The idea of the unconcern for the feeling of others/lack of guilt that we find with sociopaths certainly seems like BPD, but the difference imho, is that BPD will feel that guilt/shame that a sociopath won't, but usually deal with those feelings in a complex and unhealthy way.

[JimNelson89]

Sheepdog

I don't think so.  They are kind of very different.  Sociopath on the new DSM is listed under anti-social personality disorder.

1.  Superficially glib (not hyper-sensitive).  Will sweet talk you to death.
2.  Conning and manipulative
3.  Pathological lying.  You can test this easily.
4.  Lacks empathy.  Literally views people as objects to be used for their benefit.
5.  Cannot hold down a job.  Males often found in prison.
6.  Typically has a slave or is trying to con someone into being their slave.  They keep the slave by using humiliation, picking someone with a very low self esteem.

I met one of these people before.  She finally revealed her true nature.

[Steph]

Its the lack of empathy that is most striking...

" If it suits me, its all good. If someone gets hurt, it doesnt matter because I want it.."

" If they are dumb enough to believe me, they deserve what they get"

" if her husband was any kind of a man, she wouldnt need me to sleep with her. He deserves what he gets"


etc etc..

And many DO hold down jobs..and many are in high end postions.

[waverider]

Sociopaths generally I think are quite stable and consistent, with "their" logic always in control. BPD tend to be unstable, with outburst showing lack of control and respect for others at these times. They dont have a "big picture" just a mass of confusion. A BPDs "manipulation" is not necessarily as deliberate, it is more of a survival mechanism used to feed impulses, immediate gratification, and avoiding responsibility/blame. Sociopaths manipulations are far more deliberate and have long term aims

[sheepdog]

Sociopaths generally I think are quite stable and consistent, with "their" logic always in control. BPD tend to be unstable, with outburst showing lack of control and respect for others at these times. They dont have a "big picture" just a mass of confusion. A BPDs "manipulation" is not necessarily as deliberate, it is more of a survival mechanism used to feed impulses, immediate gratification, and avoiding responsibility/blame. Sociopaths manipulations are far more deliberate and have long term aims

That makes sense.  I can kind of see the difference now even though I still feel there are similarities between the two.

[BDFriend]

I can certainly see where there would be similarities between the two disorders.

I've done research to compare the two disorders and from what I've learned, the sociopath AND pwBPD intersect in the lack of empathy area of the brain.

Here's a thought provoking question: a sociopath can hurt an animal (or a person) and not think anything of it.  We know a pwBPD will hurt people, and exhibit no empathy whatsoever. But will a pwBPD hurt animals the same way a sociopath would?

My exBPDf had a pet sitting business as one of his many side jobs (since he couldn't hold down a full-time job).  I had to help him out a few times and when I went to pick up one of the dogs on his behalf, the owner's friend (owner was out of town) said, "I'm so glad it's you picking up Stella and not your (ex) friend."  "Why?", I asked.  (I already knew the answer but it was refreshing to hear someone else verbalize it)

"Because when ex picks up Stella, she shakes and doesn't want to go with him.  He has a hard time even getting her to the car. But when you come (it was only my second time picking her up!) she gets very excited and wags her tail and even barks when she sees YOU pull into the driveway."

That caused me to think.  And, then I thought about all of the other dogs he takes care of.  He HATED IT when the dogs HE CARED FOR loved me WAY MORE than they loved him.  He'd be the "caregiver" for the dog expecting to earn their attention, respect, and love.  When the dog(s) paid more attention to me, he didn't understand why.  Jealous rage would always occur.

I told him early on that being a dog (animal) lover and owner several times over, I have always treated my dogs as if they were children.  My two ten year old brothers are like my children and I love them as if they were.  He could never understand because dogs are just dogs.  (objectivity)

[sheepdog]

BDfriend - very interesting!
And wow - jealous rage towards a dog...wow...

And yes, you're right - I think they do intersect in several areas.

[briefcase]

People with BPD can, and do feel empathy.  Although they sometimes act in ways that may suggest otherwise, they often care about the feelings of others and feel remorse over their actions.  They lash out in pain and frustration.

Sociopaths simply don't do any of that. They feel no empathy at all and have trouble understanding why anyone else does. 

The comparisons between the two are not apt.  It would be like saying a house cat and a tiger are basically the same thing because they both have sharp teeth and tails.  They're very different animals.

[bpdlover]

I agree with you Skip and many of the comments here. The ex in my case has BPD/NPD and there are contrasting differences between her relationships with woman and men. She told me on many occasions she hates men, which started about six months in as the devaluing began. In her case, like many, there is a mix that is hard to clearly define, although it was quite noticeable that she started out more borderline and ended more narc certainly in terms of behaviour. Or at least, it appeared that way. She also changed a letter in her first name a while back and may now prefer same sex companionship rather than relationships with men. I'm not sure her parents will approve since they are very religious. Another covert op inside a covert op. I hope one day she finds the strength to face what happened or what is happening to her, if you know what I mean.

[Auspicious]

But will a pwBPD hurt animals the same way a sociopath would?

Some might, but it's not a part of BPD.

My wife (diagnosed BPD) loves animals, and wouldn't hurt one. She loves to talk about how animals are innocents and animals never hurt anyone deliberately, etc.


Not every negative thing that a person with BPD does is due to BPD. (And not everyone posting on FtF actually has a partner with BPD, even if they think they do, for that matter.)

[sisi]

I was reading about antisocial personality disorder and was shocked to see that there are a lot of traits that apply to my pwbpd.
Especially if you read this subtype:

"COVETOUS PSYCHOPATH"

In the covetous psychopath, we see a distilled form an essential feature of the DSM's antisocial personality disorder, and the ICD's syssocial personality disorder: aggrandizement. These individuals feel that life has not "given them their due"; that they have been deprived of their rightful level of love, support, or material rewards; that others have received more than their share; and that they personally were never given the bounties of the good life. Thus, they are driven by envy and a desire for retribution - a wish to take back what they have been deprived of by destiny. Through acts of theft or destruction, they compensate themselves for the emptiness of their own lives, dismissing with smug entitlement their violations of the social order. They act on the rationalization that they alone must restore the karmic imbalance with which life has burdened them.

For those who are merely somewhat resentful, and for whom some conscious controls remain intact, small transgressions and petty acquisitions often suffice to blunt the expression of more extreme characteristics. For the more severely disordered, however, the usurpation of others' earned achievements and possessions becomes the highest reward. Here, the pleasure lies in taking rather than in having. Like hungry animals pursuing prey, covetous psychopaths have an enormous drive, a rapaciousness. They manipulate others and treat them as pawns in their power games. Although they have little compassion for the effects of their behaviors, feeling little or no guilt for their actions, they remain at heart quite insecure about their power and their possessions; they never feel that enough has been aquired to make up for earlier deprivations. Regardless of their achievements, they remain ever jealous and envious, pushy and greedy, presenting ostentatious displays of materialism and conspicuous consumption. For the most pat, they are completely self-centered and self-indulgent, often profligate and wasteful, unwilling to share with others for fear that they will take again what was so desperately desired in early life. Hence, such psychopaths never achieve a deep sense of contentment. They feel unfulfilled, empty, and forlorn, regardless of their successes, and remain forever dissatisfied and insatiable. Believing they will continue to be deprived, these psychopaths show minimal empathy for those who are exploited and deceived. Some may become successful entrepreneurs, exploiters of others as objects to satisfy their desires.

Here an active exploitiveness, manifested through greed and the appropriation of others' possessions, becomes a central motivating force. The covetous psychopaths experience not only a deep and pervasive sense of emptiness - a powerful hunger for the love and recognition not received in early life - but also an insecurity that they perhaps really are intrinsically less than others, somehow deserving of life's marginal dispensations.

Could someone tell my if this is just a coincidental similarity between two completely different disorders or if these sometimes occur together?
Because they generally seem so different: bpd's have such strong emotions that they can't cope with it and that's why they do things to you that they do, while a pw aspd has a lack of emotions and that's why they do the things they do.
How can you know the difference?

I find it a real pickle, this one...

--quote from Psychopathy: Antisocial, Criminal, and Violent Behavior
 By Theodore Millon, Erik Simonsen, Morten Birket-Smith, Roger D. Davis

[GreenMango]

Could someone tell my if this is just a coincidental similarity between two completely different disorders or if these sometimes occur together?
Because they generally seem so different: bpd's have such strong emotions that they can't cope with it and that's why they do things to you that they do, while a pw aspd has a lack of emotions and that's why they do the things they do.
How can you know the difference?

PDs can be really complicated. Those two are pretty different.  This year there was a review of the DSM-IV.  It was controversial.  They had the same kind of questions you had.  How to quantify the PD spectrum disorders, competing therapeutic philosophies, what qualifies what doesn't, how to tell the difference, how would this help treatment, what types of treatment, etc. They couldn't come to a consensus on the best course of action.  So not a whole lot changed in regards to PDs in the newer manual.

Pros have to rule out other contributing factors and spend a lengthy amount of time to diagnose.  Usually there is some testing and an extensive period of consultation before they are able to pinpoint what they believe is going on.  Sometimes it ends up with multiple diagnoses or PD-NOS (not otherwise specified) or diagnosing one thing first, starting small ex. depression/anxiety and treating that to see if it worked out.  If the symptoms were unresponsive, then moving onto others.

Generally speaking BPD behavior is impulsive.  I generally look at it as self-control and intent.  Does the person seem to be exercising a level of control and calculation in their actions with a disregard for the rights of others for personal gain or is this person knee jerking their way thoughtlessly in order to alleviate whatever stressors they are living in using the maladaptive coping skills they have with naive disregard.  But I'm not a pro and focusing on the my interaction with the troublesome behavior was easier/more effective than the label alone.

[Auspicious]

Could someone tell my if this is just a coincidental similarity between two completely different disorders or if these sometimes occur together?
Because they generally seem so different: bpd's have such strong emotions that they can't cope with it and that's why they do things to you that they do, while a pw aspd has a lack of emotions and that's why they do the things they do.
How can you know the difference?

I agree with GreenMango ... what you've described doesn't sound like BPD.

Someone with BPD can temporarily mimic narcissism, antisocial, histrionic, or whatever ... but ultimately are driven by instability, identity disturbance, black and white thinking, etc. They show the "lack of empathy" of a wounded bear, not of a psychopath.

Speaking personally, my wife (repeatedly diagnosed with BPD, comorbid with bipolar or Mood Disorder NOS)  doesn't (often) line up with that description that you quoted. Has she ever been driven by envy, resentment, entitlement, shown disregard of others, etc?  Yes, sometimes. But it's not consistent or pervasive. What is pervasive and consistent over the years with her are the BPD characteristics.