Why do they keep changing their minds?

[mitti]

Just a very general question. My uBPDbf often changes his mind, even about really insignificant and trivial things, such as where to go for a walk or whether to stay for another half hour at the gym. perhaps he feels indecisive all the time but he can tell me that we are doing X and the reasons why and when I am fine with it, he immediately changes his mind and sounds just as a convinced then that that is the better option, only to change it back again. Sometimes I get a feeling he changes when I am OK with something but to be truthful he changes his mind even if his plans don't include me.

Does anybody have similar experiences and any ideas as to why thy keep changing their minds?

When it comes to major life-changing decisions he also keeps changing his mind, sounding as convincing about each and every suggestion and plan but the problem then is that he never gets going, nothing ever happens, he just talks about it.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[RCA212]

That is a great question!  Mine does it also... .I think it's because they truly don't know what they want!  Mine hates making decisions... .and if other people don't step up to make a decision he gets furious... .I think this is a result of not being able to make up his mind... .it's a big circle... .

As far as not following through on things mine does that too... .he will decide "I'm going to do this!" Absolutey, no questions asked... .then he changes his mind and has some excuse.  I don't get it... .I guess it's part of BPD?

[mitti]

Hi RCA212,

So interesting to hear that yours does the same. I guess you are right that fundamentally they don't know what they want, even when it comes to minor things or their insecurity just spills over to everything in life perhaps. My bf wants to be the one to take the lead. It is just that he sounds so convincing, so certain each and every time he says to do X and then equally convincing when he changes his mind to do Y and to Z and the finally back to X again. I usually don't get involved in his decision-making problems, partly because they are so trivial and I am fine whatever he chooses but it does get tricky when it's about "yes, let's have a picnic" and then no "we won't bring any food" and this is just him talking. I am in the kitchen getting the espresso maker out and then putting it back again 3-4 times.

What do you do? Is there anything you can do to help them "calm down" and feel content and at ease with what they decide?

[marchgirl]

My STBX ALWAYS did that, even with such trivial things such as 'what food he liked''.  For ages he would 'love' a certain meal, then he would one day say something along the lines of "I don't know why you cook that, I always hated it' and I'd be so confused and then some time later comment why we never 'had it' as it was his favourite.  I know it sounds such a trivial thing, but I used to wonder what was going on... .I KNEW he liked something, then he 'hated it' and insisted he always did and then change his mind again.  It used to confuse me so much.  I started to think that I was going crazy, or 'missing conversations'.  It happened about all sorts of things and sometimes I really ended up totally confused (or frustrated) and I thought I was the one 'going crazy', particularly over such insignificant things.  In the end I didn't know what he liked/hated (with food - but this happened with everything) and it was so confusing/hard to deal with.

In the end I just figured it depended on what sort of 'mood' he was in but I think that was an oversimplification.  I don't know why  - but it did drive me nuts and as I said I started to wonder if I was 'not hearing him' until years later I just gave up and figured he had no idea what he wanted/liked.  I know food it a 'simple' example but it is the one that comes to the top of my mind (as it wasn't just bored/sick of something... .it was 'I NEVER liked it/always HATED it' when previously it was 'a favorite meal'.  It was so frustrating.  And it happened with everything.  It made me think I was going crazy, wondering how I could have 'not known that' and being sure that it wasn't always the case.  In my ex's case I think he often disliked something/changed his mind just to be difficult because he was 'irritable' but I don't know that he did it consciously but rather because he felt like being 'difficult' and this is what he would do to 'reflect his irritability'.   All I know is it was REALLY frustrating and at one stage I thought I was 'forgetting things' and then one day I realised "No, you very definitely said... ." and I think from that point on I just gave up on that sort of thing, which is OK for some things (like what meals to cook) but when bigger things came up I ended up having to 'take control' and make decisions because he couldn't be relied upon to be 'consistent'.  And of course now I am apparently a 'control freak' but if you lived with him, and didn't want everything to fall apart due to his lack of decisiveness/consistency you would too.  Of course that always backfired... .and everything was always 'my fault' but it usually was anyway.

[argyle]

My BPDw does this a lot.  My guess?

Normal human uncertainty combined with black and white thinking.

I really have a lot of choices where there isn't a clear answer.  I usually settle on some decision based on, 'well, it doesn't suck and I don't want to think about it any more.'

If I lacked the ability to recognize gray, then the decision would alternate continuously between great and terrible and I'd end up changing my mind a lot.  This actually was once a common problem for digital simulations of analog feedback loops.

--Argyle

[Wrongturn1]

This is one I've been thinking a lot about lately, and I agree with Argyle's guess about black & white thinking. 

When a decision to be made is "gray" in reality, the pwBPD can't actually view it as gray, so they notice one "piece" of the issue that's white and then decide accordingly... .but then they notice that one of the other pieces of the issue is black, so they change their mind and reverse course... .and on and on and on until the non-BP is ready to scream.   

[RCA212]

I find that it's become increasingly difficult for ME to make a decision around him, because, like Argyle said, I think in "gray", and he thinks black and white - therefore, I'm afraid (from experience) of making  decision that ends up "triggering" him.  It's not that I don't care, I (us nons) just don't get upset over little things like they do.

[amazingcharis]

Inconsistency is very much a distinguishing feature of my uBPDh's behavior and I always thought it was because of his insecurity and not being able to bear to be wrong about anything so if he doesn't make any decisions he can't be wrong and if someone else (usually me) is forced to make the decisions then there's someone else to blame if things don't always turn out the way he would like.  And like Marchgirl, because some decisions have to be made and that falls to me, my H then labels me controlling. 

Similar to Marchgirl's experience, the inconsistencies are often over small things (but sometimes big things) and he swings one direction and then totally in the opposite direction.  I can identify exactly with the food thing.  One day he will tell me he doesn't like something, and then the next day he will say the exact opposite seemingly with no remembrance on his part that he just told me he didn't like it.  Makes meal planning kind of iffy.

Before I realized my H had BPD, these inconsistencies used to cause arguments that resulted in his dysregulating almost every time and often raging, and I used to wonder if I was going crazy. Now that I realize it's all part of the BPD package, it rarely bothers me anymore and I don't call him on the inconsistencies.  He's not going to change, so now I deal with them the best I can and even laugh to myself a lot about them.

For me, some things are white and some are black but there's a whole lot of things out there that fall into the gray zone.  I guess I never thought about my H's inconsistencies being related to his black and white thinking, but I can see where that could be happening. 

[millie22]

nons = white?

BPD = black?

This is all a bit us and them for the staying board imho and goes nowhere in terms of exploring what our part is in our RS difficulties. How and whether someone else makes fast decisions is up to them, if we don't like it then we can simply minimise the effect it has on us. I am just not sure what we gain by getting annoyed with someone because they change their mind over what they want to eat. It would be much better, as some posters have said, to try to understand why our SOs have these very real difficulties and to handle them with some compassion

[jhan6120]

I find that it's become increasingly difficult for ME to make a decision around him, because, like Argyle said, I think in "gray", and he thinks black and white - therefore, I'm afraid (from experience) of making  decision that ends up "triggering" him.  It's not that I don't care, I (us nons) just don't get upset over little things like they do.

Getting caught up in their chaos. They'd rather have you in their chaos than be in your sanity.

[Auspicious]

Poor emotional control might show up in some people as indecisiveness ... .in others it might show as stubbornness and inflexibility.

What do you do? Is there anything you can do to help them "calm down" and feel content and at ease with what they decide?

In my opinion this is blurring the boundaries between you and the other person. It isn't your place to manage someone else's feelings and decisions.

By not Separating our Stuff, we get very entangled and enmeshed. It's not healthy.

And it actually leads to conflict, not harmony - after all, if you are really just a part of me like an appendage, and you don't do what I want, I'll be frustrated and mad.

[toomanyeggshells]

Poor emotional control might show up in some people as indecisiveness ... .in others it might show as stubbornness and inflexibility.

Wow, I never realized that indecisiveness could be a trait of BPD.  UBPDbf is so indecisive its unbelievable.  He goes back and forth trying to make a decision on even the smallest or simple matters.  He'll ask my opinion, which I give since I'm asked, but then he almost always dismisses it.  Its almost like whatever I decide helps him pick the opposite. 

[jhan6120]

Poor emotional control might show up in some people as indecisiveness ... .in others it might show as stubbornness and inflexibility.

What do you do? Is there anything you can do to help them "calm down" and feel content and at ease with what they decide?

In my opinion this is blurring the boundaries between you and the other person. It isn't your place to manage someone else's feelings and decisions.

By not Separating our Stuff, we get very entangled and enmeshed. It's not healthy.

And it actually leads to conflict, not harmony - after all, if you are really just a part of me like an appendage, and you don't do what I want, I'll be frustrated and mad.

This is GREAT info.

[damask]

Hmmm, well, but is this really just about the individual though, and not necessarily a "BPD trait"?  B/c my husband, who is BPD, hates to change plans once made, and is hard to get to change his mind!  He is like the opposite of what you are saying.

I am much more flexible, often saying, 'yes, we can do this, but I am not attached', while he will get very upset at the very idea of changing plans.  He will say, 'no, we have decided, and we are not changing our minds now'.  He likes to know he can count on us making a plan, and sticking with it!

As has been said on here before, I think it is important to be careful not to classify what they do as a general BPD trait, and not okay = black, and what we do as a 'normal' (therefore white), response, to any given circumstance... .

[Auspicious]

Wow, I never realized that indecisiveness could be a trait of BPD. 

I'd say it's a possible way that BPD can manifest, in some people, some of the time.

Just suggesting caution in trying to find and label "BPD traits".

You can be indecisive without having BPD. You can have BPD without generally appearing to be indecisive (though of course you will likely have a history of unstable relationships and so forth).

[toomanyeggshells]

Wow, I never realized that indecisiveness could be a trait of BPD. 

I'd say it's a possible way that BPD can manifest, in some people, some of the time.

Just suggesting caution in trying to find and label "BPD traits".

You can be indecisive without having BPD. You can have BPD without generally appearing to be indecisive (though of course you will likely have a history of unstable relationships and so forth).

Understood.  We can all be indecisive at times. 

[mitti]

In my opinion this is blurring the boundaries between you and the other person. It isn't your place to manage someone else's feelings and decisions.

By not Separating our Stuff, we get very entangled and enmeshed. It's not healthy.

And it actually leads to conflict, not harmony - after all, if you are really just a part of me like an appendage, and you don't do what I want, I'll be frustrated and mad.

So what do you do when you find that it starts making you nervous? I am pretty flexible and because of that I am OK with whatever he wants and he seems to feel better taking the lead anyway. But I am starting to feel nervous because I know that plans will always be changed several times at the last minute. If I stick to the original plan and let him change for himself only that will lead to conflict.

I am not trying to manage his feelings or decisions but I guess I am having a problem seeing every thing as an individual problem as we have decided to be in a r/s and therefore, albeit two individuals, we are dependent on each other. Does that make sense?

So any ideas as to what I can do?

[mitti]

As has been said on here before, I think it is important to be careful not to classify what they do as a general BPD trait, and not okay = black, and what we do as a 'normal' (therefore white), response, to any given circumstance... .

Absolutely, as I have read on here also, we are all "ill" by degrees and a diagnosis can be pretty rigid in its description and doesn't fit every single individual exactly. I never thought of my bf's indecisiveness as a BPD trait before but as I was wondering how to handle my feeling anxious every time we decide something, which is more often than you'd think when you end up with butterflies in your stomach each time, I thought perhaps this is something others have experienced as well. But it is very interesting to hear that your H is the opposite of that. My bf also gets upset if I try to change plans, but that is only if I am the one who wants/needs to. How irritated he gets depends on the mood he is in.

[mitti]

He'll ask my opinion, which I give since I'm asked, but then he almost always dismisses it.  Its almost like whatever I decide helps him pick the opposite. 

OMG, that is exactly what my bf does as well, not every single time but more often than not, and like you say, it's almost as if I help him pick the opposite. I have no idea why but I wonder if it could be connected to his need to create distance between us.

[mitti]

Normal human uncertainty combined with black and white thinking.

Poor emotional control might show up in some people as indecisiveness ... .in others it might show as stubbornness and inflexibility.

Argyle, Wrongturn1 and Auspicious,

Thank you all. It makes sense that it could be due to poor emotional control and black and white thinking. It always helps to have an idea as to why even if I am not sure how I could deal with this better. He always explains why the other option is better, even when he changes back to an option he has discarded earlier, that I don’t know how I could communicate differently.

[Auspicious]

I am not trying to manage his feelings or decisions but I guess I am having a problem seeing every thing as an individual problem as we have decided to be in a r/s and therefore, albeit two individuals, we are dependent on each other. Does that make sense?

This seems to be at the root of a lot of the questions you have (and you are not alone in that!).

If he has BPD, he has a serious mental illness. An emotional handicap, if you will. He is handicapped when it comes to relationships.

He has shown you that he is prone to changing plans at the last minute. This is not something that is likely to change unless he wants to change it and he works on changing it in therapy.

What you control is you. You have the ability to stop expecting him to stick to plans - change your expectations. You have the ability to make plans that will better survive his last minute changes (e.g. two non-refundable tickets - probably out).

[argyle]

Y'know, I'm not recommending this... .but it works for us... .

When BPDw is being indecisive, I just say... .

'So, remember that you have BPD... .this is black-and-white thinking again'... .list positives and negatives for the situation... .discuss them with BPDw and pick a decision. It helps - seems to reduce flip-flops by about 3x, not a cure, but it helps. It probably won't work for most people.

--Argyle

[Kifazes]

I was about to post this on the board myself, and now I find this!

My BPDbf can make me crazy with decision making. One minute he'll say X, the other minute Y, and then changes to Z, to eventually end up with X.

It's about everything, big things, small things, even when he holds the remote control of the tv.

He often then asks me "is it ok for you?". In the beginning I would say what I like, but that came always back to bite me. If I said X, he would be mad about that a couple of days later, because I choose X and he wanted Y. And as you can guess, if I would have picked Y, he would have been mad at me for not picking X and not think about him or what he feels.

Lately, I just say (only if I mean it) fine by me, or, I don't mind, you choose.

He can go nuts over that! He needs me, to make his decisions for him, and I said to myself that I won't be doing that any longer. He needs to figure out what he wants, cause if I choose for him, it's always the wrong choice. So, I let hem dysregulate. It's not my problem anymore, I will get the blame for it later on... .Now he can only blame himself for the choices he makes.

[united for now]

This sort of behavior can drive you batty it you let it. Often, it is hard for them "to" decide, since they fear choosing wrong. Making a wrong decision is scary. It can paralyze people who don't have faith in themselves.

Depending on how the question impacts you, short term and long term... .you have a few options.

If you "know" someone is prone to this behavior, then your best defense is to stop playing by their rules. Stop giving them what they seek, an excuse to shift the blame onto you. Toss the decision back onto their lap.

A great way to do this is to play dumb.

"Since this isn't my area of expertise I wouldn't feel comfortable deciding."

"Hmm. I haven't thought that through. What are you thinking?"

"Wow. Good question. What are the options?"

"Man, that's a tough one... ."

You are stalling for time. Time to allow them to work out themselves the various issues. Let them bounce back and forth as you validate Tue various options while maintaining a neutral stance.

Asking questions is also a great way to get them out of emotional thinking and into some logical analysis.

unless it really does matter to you. Then stating your opinion is important.Being afraid to commit ourselves to a decision out of fear is walking on eggshells. It is a red flag that we aren't taking care of ourselves. And if you think about it, isn't our fear of getting them mad at us a similar form of indecision? We just justify our fears and shift the blame onto them. Sounds familiar... .

[jhan6120]

It's even better when they make YOU decide, then blame you if they don't like the outcome. LOVE that one!

[toomanyeggshells]

This sort of behavior can drive you batty it you let it. Often, it is hard for them "to" decide, since they fear choosing wrong. Making a wrong decision is scary. It can paralyze people who don't have faith in themselves.

I never thought about a connection between uBPDbf's indecisiveness and his lack of faith in himself, but it makes alot of sense. 

Depending on how the question impacts you, short term and long term... .you have a few options.

If you "know" someone is prone to this behavior, then your best defense is to stop playing by their rules. Stop giving them what they seek, an excuse to shift the blame onto you. Toss the decision back onto their lap.

A great way to do this is to play dumb.

"Since this isn't my area of expertise I wouldn't feel comfortable deciding."

"Hmm. I haven't thought that through. What are you thinking?"

"Wow. Good question. What are the options?"

"Man, that's a tough one... ."

You are stalling for time. Time to allow them to work out themselves the various issues. Let them bounce back and forth as you validate Tue various options while maintaining a neutral stance.

Asking questions is also a great way to get them out of emotional thinking and into some logical analysis.

unless it really does matter to you. Then stating your opinion is important.Being afraid to commit ourselves to a decision out of fear is walking on eggshells. It is a red flag that we aren't taking care of ourselves. And if you think about it, isn't our fear of getting them mad at us a similar form of indecision? We just justify our fears and shift the blame onto them. Sounds familiar... .

This is great info UFN!   

[Finallyfree123]

My ex couldn't make up his mind on anything! He would have to take a survey to make any kind of decision.

We would even have set plans and he would keep second guessing them, it was so stressful. If I put my foot down because I couldn't take him constantly changing things he would say I was controlling.

Then he would tell me just to make all the decisions. Then when I would he would say we always had to do what I wanted to do.

I'm exhausted just thinking about it.

[argyle]

I've found that adding a boilerplate... .

'Well, this is my opinion.  However, you're an adult, and you should make up your own mind.' to every bit of advice has had the following three effects.

(a) Less blaming for bad decisions on her part

(b) More consideration on her part

(c) Complaints about the boilerplate not being what she really wanted, followed by less blaming on her part.

--Argyle

[mitti]

Y'know, I'm not recommending this... .but it works for us... .

When BPDw is being indecisive, I just say... .

'So, remember that you have BPD... .this is black-and-white thinking again'... .list positives and negatives for the situation... .discuss them with BPDw and pick a decision. It helps - seems to reduce flip-flops by about 3x, not a cure, but it helps. It probably won't work for most people.

--Argyle

Thanks, not sure it would work for us though as he doesn't seem to think he is being indecisive. We have at times discussed and sort of together come to a decision but it makes no difference, he can just as easily change his mind anyway. Sometimes he asks me what I think when he is about to change plans but what I think usually makes little difference.

[mitti]

Being afraid to commit ourselves to a decision out of fear is walking on eggshells. It is a red flag that we aren't taking care of ourselves. And if you think about it, isn't our fear of getting them mad at us a similar form of indecision? We just justify our fears and shift the blame onto them. Sounds familiar... .

Thank you UFN, yes, I can relate to that. I try to avoid conflict as far as is possible. When it comes to decision making about fairly unimportant things I don't actually mind and he seems happier taking the lead. The problem is that no matter what he chooses he will later change his mind about it, and often several times and often at the last minute. It is making me nervous to never know what to expect but not because I don't want a conflict, it won't lead to an argument. I'd just like to know what we are doing and that we can most of the time just stick to that. If I question his changing plans he will either not admit to changing at all or he will give me such a good explanation for why the new plan is better that I cannot think of a reason why I should object.  ?

[Validation78]

Hi All:

   I just thought I'd jump in here and share my story. I have found that in certain areas, H is ready willing and able to make decisions, and I am alright with that. In others, he doesn't or perhaps cannot. So, when he cannot, I do. He doesn't seem to be able to decide on our social activities, especially where to eat. He almost always leaves it up to me, so I did a little experiment the last 2 times we went out to eat. The time before last, I pushed him to make the decision. He changed his mind 4 times before we got to the restaurant, UGH! Last time, I asked him if he would like me to plan the night, and he jumped at my offer. I picked a new place, tried to keep in mind what he would enjoy, and made the plan. The whole way there, he kept asking questions, where is this place, what do they have, how did you find it, etc. Finally I said, look, you asked me to plan everything, and I did. I feel anxious when you question the plans you were happy for me to make. It makes me not want to plan a night out, and all you have to do is relax and enjoy it. I picked a place I think we will both like, so please, trust me. He replied with ok, you don't have to get all huffy about it, but he stopped with the questions. Moral of this story, he loved this new place I found, and encouraged me to find more new places!

   Bottom line though is, take note of the things he can decide on, and encourage him to do so, and hold him accountable for his decisions. If there is an area he cannot make decisions in, take charge, and hold him accountable for putting you in the position to make the decision. If there is an area where you feel that it should be a joint decision, make him accountable for his part, and take responsibility for your own part. I am trying to be more aware of what is what, and taking the appropriate actions in each scenario. Before there was a lot of gas lighting going on, and my new awareness has reduced the frequency of that!

Best Wishes,

Val78

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Auspicious]

It's even better when they make YOU decide, then blame you if they don't like the outcome. LOVE that one!

Except that nobody can make you decide. This is where we play a role - we are not helpless victims.

[itsaconspiracy]

My girlfriend changes her mind on how she feels about me on a weekly basis and its probably the biggest problem we have in our relationship, I love her with all my heart and we have been through so much together but she wont stop this behaviour. She leaves me all the time and it doesnt really stop. We used to live together now we hardly see each other. Maybe I didnt understand her illness, since I am only researching it now it may be too late. It has messed with my self esteem, brought on constant depression and I cant see it coming to an end. Has anyone else here gone through this? We have been together 3 yrs lived together for most of it and almost had a child together, her family always tries to break us up and things look pretty bad. She suffers from multiple mental illnesses and from reading on here and other sites I think she 99% is BPD as well as BiPolar and paranoid schitzofrenic. The final two she has told me she has.

She tells me she hates her family and then runs to them and probably tell them she hates me. Her family and I have been at each others throats for a while, its hard for me to like them after all she has told me and their distain for our relationship. When she was pregnant we were both happy but she wanted to let her dad know she was pregnant I told her to let him know even though I knew hed push for abortion. They blackmailed her to get rid of the child or else theyd cut her off. Were both 27.

[argyle]

It would be wise to think things through... .

(a) Her behavior sounds BPD.  That often looks like PS and Bipolar.

(b) Is she on meds for PS and Bipolar and do they help?

(c) You probably got lucky with the abortion.  You might want to think about the wisdom of having a BPD/PS/Bipolar raising children.  Babies can't defend themselves.

--Argyle

[jhan6120]

She tells me she hates her family and then runs to them and probably tell them she hates me. Her family and I have been at each others throats for a while, its hard for me to like them after all she has told me and their distain for our relationship. When she was pregnant we were both happy but she wanted to let her dad know she was pregnant I told her to let him know even though I knew hed push for abortion. They blackmailed her to get rid of the child or else theyd cut her off. Were both 27.

Classic BPD stuff. Pitting people against once another. My ex painted her family black to me all the time, but I never bought into it. I got along really well with them. Then, a week later, she'd love them again. Back and forth, back and forth . . . Idealization/Devaluation, triangulation, the whole nine yards . . .

My T told me he once saw a 15 year old BPD divide the entire staff of a NYC psych ward against each other. They are PRO'S at this. They do it to alleviate the terror of their own anxiety and emptiness.


Her family misses me. Too bad. They were really looking for someone to take their job over.

[itsaconspiracy]

Argyle -

Yeah she barely takes her meds, I tried my arse off for a while to get her to take it regularly but she would always make it out like I was the bad guy for suggesting she take it. I would then tell her she'll end up in a mental ward if she doesnt take them for long enough (its happened twice in the past 12 months).

Yeah as far as her being pregnant goes you may be right but it was somthing that we both wanted when things were going well and it was sad to see that die.

Yeah I will ask her to go to get some help next time she comes running back but there is not alot I can do at this stage. Councilling would be somthing but I doubt she would stick to it.

[argyle]

I'd suggest studying the lessons on boundaries and limits.  If you allow her to cope with her illness by mistreating you - she'll get worse instead of better.

I'd also suggest being very careful about accidentally getting her pregnant.  Don't rely on her taking the pill regularly.

Similarly, if she isn't taking her meds - not much you can do about it - she'll just end up in the psych ward occasionally.  It is possible that she's being wise about the meds though.  Bipolar and PS are both common misdiagnoses of BPD and the difference is that BPD usually will not respond much to meds.

DBT often does work for motivated BPDs.

--Argyle

[itsaconspiracy]

I'd suggest studying the lessons on boundaries and limits.  If you allow her to cope with her illness by mistreating you - she'll get worse instead of better.

I'd also suggest being very careful about accidentally getting her pregnant.  Don't rely on her taking the pill regularly.

Similarly, if she isn't taking her meds - not much you can do about it - she'll just end up in the psych ward occasionally.  It is possible that she's being wise about the meds though.  Bipolar and PS are both common misdiagnoses of BPD and the difference is that BPD usually will not respond much to meds.

DBT often does work for motivated BPDs.

--Argyle

Interesting, thanks for the advice. The Lessons on Boundaries and Limits is somthing I can find on this site Im sure Ill check it out.

[Ring of fire]

I am posting hoping this topic is up for discussion. I don't know if anyone is familiar with Judgers vs. Percievers (Jung) but I am having a problem with my BPD/NPD saying that changing your mind is the greatest thing in the world.  In some cases... yes it can be okay but in many cases it is rude,inconsiderate. Mine is saying it is because of him  being an Introvert. I would like to hear thoughts... anybody?

[an0ught]

I am posting hoping this topic is up for discussion. I don't know if anyone is familiar with Judgers vs. Percievers (Jung) but I am having a problem with my BPD/NPD saying that changing your mind is the greatest thing in the world.  In some cases... yes it can be okay but in many cases it is rude,inconsiderate. Mine is saying it is because of him  being an Introvert. I would like to hear thoughts... anybody?

If he chooses to believe that - it is his right and there is no point to argue with it.


We know however that decisions are highly emotional. We may want to believe that decisions are mostly a rational affair but when the mind starts working on it the emotional centers are quite involved in the process. Now a pwBPD has a number of emotional challenges and it does affect their decision making:

  - splitting - simply keeping things together, object constancy, linear time/only seeing now, disassociation

  - twisting - choosing the exact opposite instinctively

  - regulation - having the appropriate volume setting for an emotion

It is fairly amazing that some of them do not struggle more than they do when it comes to decision making.

What can we do:

  - Boundaries - do not let their decision making process drive you crazy. Decouple our own decision making. Protect ourselves from irresponsible decisions.

  - Validation - the calmer the less trouble thinking straight

  - Accountability - their decision - their consequences

[hergestridge]

As has been said on here before, I think it is important to be careful not to classify what they do as a general BPD trait, and not okay = black, and what we do as a 'normal' (therefore white), response, to any given circumstance... .

It's the problem that defines an illness. The things they do that get them (or us) into trouble are problematic. They may have more or less unrelated flaws that are not BPD specific, but still part of a problematic personality.

My BPDw usef to love me for never changing my mind and always keeping my promises. She grew up with a dad who changed plans last second on a whim.

Now when she's reaching middle age she's becoming just like him and she hates me when I get in her way. Never trust a girl who hates her dad.

[kiwipollyanna]

I find my uBPDbf will constantly change his mind about things he has previously said or admitted. One day he will admit that his behaviour was unacceptable, or he shouldn't have done something, then the next day he will completely deny that he admitted it. It has got to the point where I want to record our conversations. I'll think I am getting somewhere with our discussion and am encouraged by the fact he he has FINALLY accepted responsibility for his behaviour, then he pulls the rug out from under me again and denies everything and says I am the one who has things mixed up and the problem lies with me   Talk about doubting my own sanity.

I refer to it as "Groundhog Day".

[hergestridge]

Just like in the movie, I think we're all more or less trapped in groundhog day! I think about that everytime I read a post from someone who's had a dramatic breakthrough or bust of progress with their BPD SO. Just wait... .

[empathic]

My BPDw usef to love me for never changing my mind and always keeping my promises. She grew up with a dad who changed plans last second on a whim.

Now when she's reaching middle age she's becoming just like him and she hates me when I get in her way. Never trust a girl who hates her dad.

Yes, this kind of change is problematic for me too. I don't know how many hours I've spent listening to my wife complaining about her birth family, her father, her mother, her brother, her SIL. We even involved my parents into it, telling them what a difficult time my wife had with her brother. But it turns out it was kind of a "phase" (although long) because now she's acting like her brother and SIL are her best friends. Of course my parents have a difficult time understanding this. I've noticed that my wife never really has developed a personality separate from her birth family. If her brother has an opinion on something, my wife immediately agrees. They have a common language of negativity.

[hergestridge]

Empathic: It's bitter, isn't it? I thought my wife wanted to break free from her family, but she was just obsessed with it. And she still is.

It's been very problematic trying to start a family together, because just as soon as we've established something that is "us" she goes into a devaluing phase where everything that represents "me" is wrong and she goes on a campaign to revert everything in our life to the standards of her childhood. The food has to be cooked like her dad did it (which I can' for my life eat) and home needs to be re-decorated to like her mom's house.

Trying to stop her is dangerous territory. Trying to point out that this whole mess is sort of... . directed at me... . is even more dangerous territory. She will rage.

[empathic]

Empathic: It's bitter, isn't it? I thought my wife wanted to break free from her family, but she was just obsessed with it. And she still is.

It's been very problematic trying to start a family together, because just as soon as we've established something that is "us" she goes into a devaluing phase where everything that represents "me" is wrong and she goes on a campaign to revert everything in our life to the standards of her childhood. The food has to be cooked like her dad did it (which I can' for my life eat) and home needs to be re-decorated to like her mom's house.

Trying to stop her is dangerous territory. Trying to point out that this whole mess is sort of... . directed at me... . is even more dangerous territory. She will rage.

Indeed. I think my wife just got a high on the drama. She at one point talked about breaking contact with her brother entirely. But it never happened... . they have very strong ties between eachother that weren't really obvious from the beginning. Blood a lot thicker than water in their case.

I never have been able to establish any "us" that has lasted, because in her mind she always has to answer to her family, in all decisions. Ranging from what curtains to choose to what car/house to buy.

There are a few times where I've spoken my mind on the situation and it has worked. Like when she has complained about her brother yet seems to agree with what he's saying when meeting him. But it's impossible for me to know when this will work or not... . I might just as likely get a response of "why are you always complaining about my family?"

[hergestridge]

We had a situation at home today (which is recurring), and it made me think about this thread.

My BPDw likes to make promises, but she's not as keen when it comes to follow them through. She likes to show that she cares.

She can say "I'll buy you a new coat", but once she realizes what the price of a coat is then the wants to forget all about it. To me that seems to be a frequent way for borderline people to change their minds.

The recurring situtation at home is like this:

My wife has come to realize that she occopies all my time and that I never get to do anything on my own, and this worries her. So when she's having a good day she tells me

"Is there anything you'd like to do on your own today?"

And I tell her that there is a few things I'd like to do. She says she will take care of our daughter. A few minutes later my wife starts to think brainstorm aloud to herself about the things that "needs to be done" around the house or in the household - or in her life in general - during the day. Most of them requires my participation - which she also undestands. She plans for about five or six activities, all of them taking about two or three hours each, to be done during the day. And then she'll just assume we'll start at the top of her list.

The things I was going to do (the "... . is there anything you'd like to do on your own"-things) are presumably at the bottom.

Realisticially we'll only get to item number two or three on her list when meal breaks are included.

But if I start to question her time schedule (or rather lack thereof) or ask where the extra time she so generously offered me will fit in - she will dysregulate (crying, claiming I'm being mean and putting her under preassure).

The truth is she promised me some free time - changed her mind when she realized the cost but didn't like how it sounded when spoken out loud. So it just disappeared into the ehter again, never talked of again... .

[gotbushels]

I am posting hoping this topic is up for discussion. I don't know if anyone is familiar with Judgers vs. Percievers (Jung) but I am having a problem with my BPD/NPD saying that changing your mind is the greatest thing in the world.  In some cases... yes it can be okay but in many cases it is rude,inconsiderate. Mine is saying it is because of him  being an Introvert. I would like to hear thoughts... anybody?

If he chooses to believe that - it is his right and there is no point to argue with it.


We know however that decisions are highly emotional. We may want to believe that decisions are mostly a rational affair but when the mind starts working on it the emotional centers are quite involved in the process. Now a pwBPD has a number of emotional challenges and it does affect their decision making:

  - splitting - simply keeping things together, object constancy, linear time/only seeing now, disassociation

  - twisting - choosing the exact opposite instinctively

  - regulation - having the appropriate volume setting for an emotion

It is fairly amazing that some of them do not struggle more than they do when it comes to decision making.

What can we do:

  - Boundaries - do not let their decision making process drive you crazy. Decouple our own decision making. Protect ourselves from irresponsible decisions.

  - Validation - the calmer the less trouble thinking straight

  - Accountability - their decision - their consequences

This helps a lot. Thanks!

"... . it should not be surprising-inconsistency is the hallmark of BPD. Unable to tolerate paradox, borderlines are walking paradoxes, human catch-22s." Kreisman

[lemon flower]

This sort of behavior can drive you batty it you let it. Often, it is hard for them "to" decide, since they fear choosing wrong. Making a wrong decision is scary. It can paralyze people who don't have faith in themselves.

Depending on how the question impacts you, short term and long term... . you have a few options.

If you "know" someone is prone to this behavior, then your best defense is to stop playing by their rules. Stop giving them what they seek, an excuse to shift the blame onto you. Toss the decision back onto their lap.

A great way to do this is to play dumb.

"Since this isn't my area of expertise I wouldn't feel comfortable deciding."

"Hmm. I haven't thought that through. What are you thinking?"

"Wow. Good question. What are the options?"

"Man, that's a tough one... . "

You are stalling for time. Time to allow them to work out themselves the various issues. Let them bounce back and forth as you validate Tue various options while maintaining a neutral stance.

Asking questions is also a great way to get them out of emotional thinking and into some logical analysis.

unless it really does matter to you. Then stating your opinion is important.Being afraid to commit ourselves to a decision out of fear is walking on eggshells. It is a red flag that we aren't taking care of ourselves. And if you think about it, isn't our fear of getting them mad at us a similar form of indecision? We just justify our fears and shift the blame onto them. Sounds familiar... .

i agree, when it's important, you should state your own opinion, as it might be of your own concern/safety and as it can be really too difficult for the BPD to find out the best decision .

main question: HOW CAN I HELP HIM TO MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION ?

we are allready one year circling around the same problem and it seems we can't get out of it, his ideas are too blurry and always a-changing, and I found that my ideas and suggestions go one ear in and ear out because he doesn't really like them, even though he agrees that they might be best for him

meanwhile the bomb is thicking louder and louder  :'(

[123Phoebe]

Poor emotional control might show up in some people as indecisiveness ... . in others it might show as stubbornness and inflexibility.

What do you do? Is there anything you can do to help them "calm down" and feel content and at ease with what they decide?

In my opinion this is blurring the boundaries between you and the other person. It isn't your place to manage someone else's feelings and decisions.

By not Separating our Stuff, we get very entangled and enmeshed. It's not healthy.

And it actually leads to conflict, not harmony - after all, if you are really just a part of me like an appendage, and you don't do what I want, I'll be frustrated and mad.

This reminded me of something from last week... .

I used to take EVERYTHING my guy said/did very personally.  Then realized he's one of those 'NO' people. More often than not he'll say 'no' before he says yes or even thinks about things (like my Mom!).  I'm the opposite, I'll say yes before thinking things through (like my Dad!).  They can both be equally dysfunctional responses in certain circumstances.

Anyway, back to last week... .

A friend had 2 concert tickets that she couldn't use, asked if I wanted them.  Sure!  Will see if SO wants to go.  Pretty much knowing he'd say no before a possible yes... .  When I asked him, he hemmed and hawed while running through the reasons why he might not feel like going.  I validated him, "Oh yea, I can see that".  "Yep, makes sense".  "Well, yea, give it some thought, they're front row mezzanine; not everyday that really good free tickets fall upon us ", then left it alone.

We continued on with our night when maybe an hour later he said that he'd like to go, but not sure he wants to stay all night.  "That's fine", I said, "I have an early day tomorrow too, so will probably only have one beer".

His tune then changed, he said, "Well, if it's really good we can stay and I think I'll probably have 2 beers".

I chuckled to myself and felt better than ever about the POWER of validation!

There are so many ways that this could've gone wrong, on my part only; it has in the past .  As it turned out though, we had a great time at the concert, each had 2 beers, left a little early as to avoid the traffic and we're still talking about the music and various experiences from that night

I realize what his triggers are and work through them; not therapy-style.  I don't avoid them, the Lessons have provided a way to work with them-- using validation that they make sense.

Thank you so much, bpdfamily!   

[day2day]

I think the whole thing centers around the BPDs overall problem with object constancy.

My BPDexgf would not only make an apparent choice or plan on a given matter but would also have to repeat it and repeat it to me, chapter and verse. And ultimately, more times than not, the plan would change, and then I'd hear the new plan reaffirmed over and over, until it too changed.

More than a few times I would hear her say to me, almost in anguish... . "You KNOW what you want... . " After a while, I almost began to feel a virtue was being perceived by her as a problem, something to be jealous of.

Have any of you noticed whether your BPD partner constantly returned stuff to the store? Mine did it more than anyone else I've ever known.

In the end, my BPDexgf abruptly cashed me in too. In trying to find dark humor in the situation, I realized that there was not much difference between me and a sofa. (She got rid of four perfectly good sofas over a six year period.)

Here's the perfect parallel: She would fall in love with a new sofa, bring it home, lie on it a few times, find a flaw or two and then get rid of it!

Object constancy... . not!

[Ring of fire]

123 Phoebe,

I really loved your real life story. I can picture it playing out in my head. Good job.