Why do they keep changing their minds?

[Validation78]

Hi All:

   I just thought I'd jump in here and share my story. I have found that in certain areas, H is ready willing and able to make decisions, and I am alright with that. In others, he doesn't or perhaps cannot. So, when he cannot, I do. He doesn't seem to be able to decide on our social activities, especially where to eat. He almost always leaves it up to me, so I did a little experiment the last 2 times we went out to eat. The time before last, I pushed him to make the decision. He changed his mind 4 times before we got to the restaurant, UGH! Last time, I asked him if he would like me to plan the night, and he jumped at my offer. I picked a new place, tried to keep in mind what he would enjoy, and made the plan. The whole way there, he kept asking questions, where is this place, what do they have, how did you find it, etc. Finally I said, look, you asked me to plan everything, and I did. I feel anxious when you question the plans you were happy for me to make. It makes me not want to plan a night out, and all you have to do is relax and enjoy it. I picked a place I think we will both like, so please, trust me. He replied with ok, you don't have to get all huffy about it, but he stopped with the questions. Moral of this story, he loved this new place I found, and encouraged me to find more new places!

   Bottom line though is, take note of the things he can decide on, and encourage him to do so, and hold him accountable for his decisions. If there is an area he cannot make decisions in, take charge, and hold him accountable for putting you in the position to make the decision. If there is an area where you feel that it should be a joint decision, make him accountable for his part, and take responsibility for your own part. I am trying to be more aware of what is what, and taking the appropriate actions in each scenario. Before there was a lot of gas lighting going on, and my new awareness has reduced the frequency of that!

Best Wishes,

Val78

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[Auspicious]

It's even better when they make YOU decide, then blame you if they don't like the outcome. LOVE that one!

Except that nobody can make you decide. This is where we play a role - we are not helpless victims.

[itsaconspiracy]

My girlfriend changes her mind on how she feels about me on a weekly basis and its probably the biggest problem we have in our relationship, I love her with all my heart and we have been through so much together but she wont stop this behaviour. She leaves me all the time and it doesnt really stop. We used to live together now we hardly see each other. Maybe I didnt understand her illness, since I am only researching it now it may be too late. It has messed with my self esteem, brought on constant depression and I cant see it coming to an end. Has anyone else here gone through this? We have been together 3 yrs lived together for most of it and almost had a child together, her family always tries to break us up and things look pretty bad. She suffers from multiple mental illnesses and from reading on here and other sites I think she 99% is BPD as well as BiPolar and paranoid schitzofrenic. The final two she has told me she has.

She tells me she hates her family and then runs to them and probably tell them she hates me. Her family and I have been at each others throats for a while, its hard for me to like them after all she has told me and their distain for our relationship. When she was pregnant we were both happy but she wanted to let her dad know she was pregnant I told her to let him know even though I knew hed push for abortion. They blackmailed her to get rid of the child or else theyd cut her off. Were both 27.

[argyle]

It would be wise to think things through... .

(a) Her behavior sounds BPD.  That often looks like PS and Bipolar.

(b) Is she on meds for PS and Bipolar and do they help?

(c) You probably got lucky with the abortion.  You might want to think about the wisdom of having a BPD/PS/Bipolar raising children.  Babies can't defend themselves.

--Argyle

[jhan6120]

She tells me she hates her family and then runs to them and probably tell them she hates me. Her family and I have been at each others throats for a while, its hard for me to like them after all she has told me and their distain for our relationship. When she was pregnant we were both happy but she wanted to let her dad know she was pregnant I told her to let him know even though I knew hed push for abortion. They blackmailed her to get rid of the child or else theyd cut her off. Were both 27.

Classic BPD stuff. Pitting people against once another. My ex painted her family black to me all the time, but I never bought into it. I got along really well with them. Then, a week later, she'd love them again. Back and forth, back and forth . . . Idealization/Devaluation, triangulation, the whole nine yards . . .

My T told me he once saw a 15 year old BPD divide the entire staff of a NYC psych ward against each other. They are PRO'S at this. They do it to alleviate the terror of their own anxiety and emptiness.


Her family misses me. Too bad. They were really looking for someone to take their job over.

[itsaconspiracy]

Argyle -

Yeah she barely takes her meds, I tried my arse off for a while to get her to take it regularly but she would always make it out like I was the bad guy for suggesting she take it. I would then tell her she'll end up in a mental ward if she doesnt take them for long enough (its happened twice in the past 12 months).

Yeah as far as her being pregnant goes you may be right but it was somthing that we both wanted when things were going well and it was sad to see that die.

Yeah I will ask her to go to get some help next time she comes running back but there is not alot I can do at this stage. Councilling would be somthing but I doubt she would stick to it.

[argyle]

I'd suggest studying the lessons on boundaries and limits.  If you allow her to cope with her illness by mistreating you - she'll get worse instead of better.

I'd also suggest being very careful about accidentally getting her pregnant.  Don't rely on her taking the pill regularly.

Similarly, if she isn't taking her meds - not much you can do about it - she'll just end up in the psych ward occasionally.  It is possible that she's being wise about the meds though.  Bipolar and PS are both common misdiagnoses of BPD and the difference is that BPD usually will not respond much to meds.

DBT often does work for motivated BPDs.

--Argyle

[itsaconspiracy]

I'd suggest studying the lessons on boundaries and limits.  If you allow her to cope with her illness by mistreating you - she'll get worse instead of better.

I'd also suggest being very careful about accidentally getting her pregnant.  Don't rely on her taking the pill regularly.

Similarly, if she isn't taking her meds - not much you can do about it - she'll just end up in the psych ward occasionally.  It is possible that she's being wise about the meds though.  Bipolar and PS are both common misdiagnoses of BPD and the difference is that BPD usually will not respond much to meds.

DBT often does work for motivated BPDs.

--Argyle

Interesting, thanks for the advice. The Lessons on Boundaries and Limits is somthing I can find on this site Im sure Ill check it out.

[Ring of fire]

I am posting hoping this topic is up for discussion. I don't know if anyone is familiar with Judgers vs. Percievers (Jung) but I am having a problem with my BPD/NPD saying that changing your mind is the greatest thing in the world.  In some cases... yes it can be okay but in many cases it is rude,inconsiderate. Mine is saying it is because of him  being an Introvert. I would like to hear thoughts... anybody?

[an0ught]

I am posting hoping this topic is up for discussion. I don't know if anyone is familiar with Judgers vs. Percievers (Jung) but I am having a problem with my BPD/NPD saying that changing your mind is the greatest thing in the world.  In some cases... yes it can be okay but in many cases it is rude,inconsiderate. Mine is saying it is because of him  being an Introvert. I would like to hear thoughts... anybody?

If he chooses to believe that - it is his right and there is no point to argue with it.


We know however that decisions are highly emotional. We may want to believe that decisions are mostly a rational affair but when the mind starts working on it the emotional centers are quite involved in the process. Now a pwBPD has a number of emotional challenges and it does affect their decision making:

  - splitting - simply keeping things together, object constancy, linear time/only seeing now, disassociation

  - twisting - choosing the exact opposite instinctively

  - regulation - having the appropriate volume setting for an emotion

It is fairly amazing that some of them do not struggle more than they do when it comes to decision making.

What can we do:

  - Boundaries - do not let their decision making process drive you crazy. Decouple our own decision making. Protect ourselves from irresponsible decisions.

  - Validation - the calmer the less trouble thinking straight

  - Accountability - their decision - their consequences

[hergestridge]

As has been said on here before, I think it is important to be careful not to classify what they do as a general BPD trait, and not okay = black, and what we do as a 'normal' (therefore white), response, to any given circumstance... .

It's the problem that defines an illness. The things they do that get them (or us) into trouble are problematic. They may have more or less unrelated flaws that are not BPD specific, but still part of a problematic personality.

My BPDw usef to love me for never changing my mind and always keeping my promises. She grew up with a dad who changed plans last second on a whim.

Now when she's reaching middle age she's becoming just like him and she hates me when I get in her way. Never trust a girl who hates her dad.

[kiwipollyanna]

I find my uBPDbf will constantly change his mind about things he has previously said or admitted. One day he will admit that his behaviour was unacceptable, or he shouldn't have done something, then the next day he will completely deny that he admitted it. It has got to the point where I want to record our conversations. I'll think I am getting somewhere with our discussion and am encouraged by the fact he he has FINALLY accepted responsibility for his behaviour, then he pulls the rug out from under me again and denies everything and says I am the one who has things mixed up and the problem lies with me   Talk about doubting my own sanity.

I refer to it as "Groundhog Day".

[hergestridge]

Just like in the movie, I think we're all more or less trapped in groundhog day! I think about that everytime I read a post from someone who's had a dramatic breakthrough or bust of progress with their BPD SO. Just wait... .

[empathic]

My BPDw usef to love me for never changing my mind and always keeping my promises. She grew up with a dad who changed plans last second on a whim.

Now when she's reaching middle age she's becoming just like him and she hates me when I get in her way. Never trust a girl who hates her dad.

Yes, this kind of change is problematic for me too. I don't know how many hours I've spent listening to my wife complaining about her birth family, her father, her mother, her brother, her SIL. We even involved my parents into it, telling them what a difficult time my wife had with her brother. But it turns out it was kind of a "phase" (although long) because now she's acting like her brother and SIL are her best friends. Of course my parents have a difficult time understanding this. I've noticed that my wife never really has developed a personality separate from her birth family. If her brother has an opinion on something, my wife immediately agrees. They have a common language of negativity.

[hergestridge]

Empathic: It's bitter, isn't it? I thought my wife wanted to break free from her family, but she was just obsessed with it. And she still is.

It's been very problematic trying to start a family together, because just as soon as we've established something that is "us" she goes into a devaluing phase where everything that represents "me" is wrong and she goes on a campaign to revert everything in our life to the standards of her childhood. The food has to be cooked like her dad did it (which I can' for my life eat) and home needs to be re-decorated to like her mom's house.

Trying to stop her is dangerous territory. Trying to point out that this whole mess is sort of... . directed at me... . is even more dangerous territory. She will rage.

[empathic]

Empathic: It's bitter, isn't it? I thought my wife wanted to break free from her family, but she was just obsessed with it. And she still is.

It's been very problematic trying to start a family together, because just as soon as we've established something that is "us" she goes into a devaluing phase where everything that represents "me" is wrong and she goes on a campaign to revert everything in our life to the standards of her childhood. The food has to be cooked like her dad did it (which I can' for my life eat) and home needs to be re-decorated to like her mom's house.

Trying to stop her is dangerous territory. Trying to point out that this whole mess is sort of... . directed at me... . is even more dangerous territory. She will rage.

Indeed. I think my wife just got a high on the drama. She at one point talked about breaking contact with her brother entirely. But it never happened... . they have very strong ties between eachother that weren't really obvious from the beginning. Blood a lot thicker than water in their case.

I never have been able to establish any "us" that has lasted, because in her mind she always has to answer to her family, in all decisions. Ranging from what curtains to choose to what car/house to buy.

There are a few times where I've spoken my mind on the situation and it has worked. Like when she has complained about her brother yet seems to agree with what he's saying when meeting him. But it's impossible for me to know when this will work or not... . I might just as likely get a response of "why are you always complaining about my family?"

[hergestridge]

We had a situation at home today (which is recurring), and it made me think about this thread.

My BPDw likes to make promises, but she's not as keen when it comes to follow them through. She likes to show that she cares.

She can say "I'll buy you a new coat", but once she realizes what the price of a coat is then the wants to forget all about it. To me that seems to be a frequent way for borderline people to change their minds.

The recurring situtation at home is like this:

My wife has come to realize that she occopies all my time and that I never get to do anything on my own, and this worries her. So when she's having a good day she tells me

"Is there anything you'd like to do on your own today?"

And I tell her that there is a few things I'd like to do. She says she will take care of our daughter. A few minutes later my wife starts to think brainstorm aloud to herself about the things that "needs to be done" around the house or in the household - or in her life in general - during the day. Most of them requires my participation - which she also undestands. She plans for about five or six activities, all of them taking about two or three hours each, to be done during the day. And then she'll just assume we'll start at the top of her list.

The things I was going to do (the "... . is there anything you'd like to do on your own"-things) are presumably at the bottom.

Realisticially we'll only get to item number two or three on her list when meal breaks are included.

But if I start to question her time schedule (or rather lack thereof) or ask where the extra time she so generously offered me will fit in - she will dysregulate (crying, claiming I'm being mean and putting her under preassure).

The truth is she promised me some free time - changed her mind when she realized the cost but didn't like how it sounded when spoken out loud. So it just disappeared into the ehter again, never talked of again... .

[gotbushels]

I am posting hoping this topic is up for discussion. I don't know if anyone is familiar with Judgers vs. Percievers (Jung) but I am having a problem with my BPD/NPD saying that changing your mind is the greatest thing in the world.  In some cases... yes it can be okay but in many cases it is rude,inconsiderate. Mine is saying it is because of him  being an Introvert. I would like to hear thoughts... anybody?

If he chooses to believe that - it is his right and there is no point to argue with it.


We know however that decisions are highly emotional. We may want to believe that decisions are mostly a rational affair but when the mind starts working on it the emotional centers are quite involved in the process. Now a pwBPD has a number of emotional challenges and it does affect their decision making:

  - splitting - simply keeping things together, object constancy, linear time/only seeing now, disassociation

  - twisting - choosing the exact opposite instinctively

  - regulation - having the appropriate volume setting for an emotion

It is fairly amazing that some of them do not struggle more than they do when it comes to decision making.

What can we do:

  - Boundaries - do not let their decision making process drive you crazy. Decouple our own decision making. Protect ourselves from irresponsible decisions.

  - Validation - the calmer the less trouble thinking straight

  - Accountability - their decision - their consequences

This helps a lot. Thanks!

"... . it should not be surprising-inconsistency is the hallmark of BPD. Unable to tolerate paradox, borderlines are walking paradoxes, human catch-22s." Kreisman

[lemon flower]

This sort of behavior can drive you batty it you let it. Often, it is hard for them "to" decide, since they fear choosing wrong. Making a wrong decision is scary. It can paralyze people who don't have faith in themselves.

Depending on how the question impacts you, short term and long term... . you have a few options.

If you "know" someone is prone to this behavior, then your best defense is to stop playing by their rules. Stop giving them what they seek, an excuse to shift the blame onto you. Toss the decision back onto their lap.

A great way to do this is to play dumb.

"Since this isn't my area of expertise I wouldn't feel comfortable deciding."

"Hmm. I haven't thought that through. What are you thinking?"

"Wow. Good question. What are the options?"

"Man, that's a tough one... . "

You are stalling for time. Time to allow them to work out themselves the various issues. Let them bounce back and forth as you validate Tue various options while maintaining a neutral stance.

Asking questions is also a great way to get them out of emotional thinking and into some logical analysis.

unless it really does matter to you. Then stating your opinion is important.Being afraid to commit ourselves to a decision out of fear is walking on eggshells. It is a red flag that we aren't taking care of ourselves. And if you think about it, isn't our fear of getting them mad at us a similar form of indecision? We just justify our fears and shift the blame onto them. Sounds familiar... .

i agree, when it's important, you should state your own opinion, as it might be of your own concern/safety and as it can be really too difficult for the BPD to find out the best decision .

main question: HOW CAN I HELP HIM TO MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION ?

we are allready one year circling around the same problem and it seems we can't get out of it, his ideas are too blurry and always a-changing, and I found that my ideas and suggestions go one ear in and ear out because he doesn't really like them, even though he agrees that they might be best for him

meanwhile the bomb is thicking louder and louder  :'(

[123Phoebe]

Poor emotional control might show up in some people as indecisiveness ... . in others it might show as stubbornness and inflexibility.

What do you do? Is there anything you can do to help them "calm down" and feel content and at ease with what they decide?

In my opinion this is blurring the boundaries between you and the other person. It isn't your place to manage someone else's feelings and decisions.

By not Separating our Stuff, we get very entangled and enmeshed. It's not healthy.

And it actually leads to conflict, not harmony - after all, if you are really just a part of me like an appendage, and you don't do what I want, I'll be frustrated and mad.

This reminded me of something from last week... .

I used to take EVERYTHING my guy said/did very personally.  Then realized he's one of those 'NO' people. More often than not he'll say 'no' before he says yes or even thinks about things (like my Mom!).  I'm the opposite, I'll say yes before thinking things through (like my Dad!).  They can both be equally dysfunctional responses in certain circumstances.

Anyway, back to last week... .

A friend had 2 concert tickets that she couldn't use, asked if I wanted them.  Sure!  Will see if SO wants to go.  Pretty much knowing he'd say no before a possible yes... .  When I asked him, he hemmed and hawed while running through the reasons why he might not feel like going.  I validated him, "Oh yea, I can see that".  "Yep, makes sense".  "Well, yea, give it some thought, they're front row mezzanine; not everyday that really good free tickets fall upon us ", then left it alone.

We continued on with our night when maybe an hour later he said that he'd like to go, but not sure he wants to stay all night.  "That's fine", I said, "I have an early day tomorrow too, so will probably only have one beer".

His tune then changed, he said, "Well, if it's really good we can stay and I think I'll probably have 2 beers".

I chuckled to myself and felt better than ever about the POWER of validation!

There are so many ways that this could've gone wrong, on my part only; it has in the past .  As it turned out though, we had a great time at the concert, each had 2 beers, left a little early as to avoid the traffic and we're still talking about the music and various experiences from that night

I realize what his triggers are and work through them; not therapy-style.  I don't avoid them, the Lessons have provided a way to work with them-- using validation that they make sense.

Thank you so much, bpdfamily!   

[day2day]

I think the whole thing centers around the BPDs overall problem with object constancy.

My BPDexgf would not only make an apparent choice or plan on a given matter but would also have to repeat it and repeat it to me, chapter and verse. And ultimately, more times than not, the plan would change, and then I'd hear the new plan reaffirmed over and over, until it too changed.

More than a few times I would hear her say to me, almost in anguish... . "You KNOW what you want... . " After a while, I almost began to feel a virtue was being perceived by her as a problem, something to be jealous of.

Have any of you noticed whether your BPD partner constantly returned stuff to the store? Mine did it more than anyone else I've ever known.

In the end, my BPDexgf abruptly cashed me in too. In trying to find dark humor in the situation, I realized that there was not much difference between me and a sofa. (She got rid of four perfectly good sofas over a six year period.)

Here's the perfect parallel: She would fall in love with a new sofa, bring it home, lie on it a few times, find a flaw or two and then get rid of it!

Object constancy... . not!

[Ring of fire]

123 Phoebe,

I really loved your real life story. I can picture it playing out in my head. Good job.