Emotional abuse of children

[Think About It...]

My STBX wife is a high functioning uBPD and uNPD.

My greatest concern RE:  her long term affects on the children are around emotional abuse.

She is a master at emotional abuse. I experienced it for 21 years but could never understand it. I dismissed it as being just the way she is given the childhood she had.

I knew nothing of BPD.

What I now see looking back was covert abuse where there was bickering, belittling, undermining, blaming, ragining about silly stuff. Manipulation, demand to s.provide her with gifts, love and support. Manipulation was at times suptle. If you did not take the hint however emotional explosions were common.

In between she ward warm, caring , affectionate. You were made feel special. You were valued. The latter felt so good that I tended to believe the good stuff and dismiss the bad.

The truth is both were always present and both were real and part of who she is.

A child is less well equipped to understand ot cope with this form of abuse. As a strong, independent, intelligent and giving indevidual I did not see these  . My children have no hope.

There are time when I have the children that they tell me mommy is shouting a lot.
That there is a big difference between the two homes.

I have tried to create a sanctuary for them here. They act out with me all the time. It is there way of leeting off the feelings associated with what they are going through.

What have you seen or expeirnced your spouce or ex doing?

How do you compensate for her behaviour and strive to protect them yet allow to develop as balanced indeviduals?

Are there articles or books thatyou would recommend that I read?

 

MJJ 

[MindfulJavaJoe]

My STBX wife is a high functioning uBPD and uNPD.

My greatest concern RE:  her long term affects on the children are around emotional abuse.

She is a master at emotional abuse. I experienced it for 21 years but could never understand it. I dismissed it as being just the way she is given the childhood she had.

I knew nothing of BPD.

What I now see looking back was covert abuse where there was bickering, belittling, undermining, blaming, ragining about silly stuff. Manipulation, demand to s.provide her with gifts, love and support. Manipulation was at times suptle. If you did not take the hint however emotional explosions were common.

In between she ward warm, caring , affectionate. You were made feel special. You were valued. The latter felt so good that I tended to believe the good stuff and dismiss the bad.

The truth is both were always present and both were real and part of who she is.

A child is less well equipped to understand ot cope with this form of abuse. As a strong, independent, intelligent and giving indevidual I did not see these  . My children have no hope.

There are time when I have the children that they tell me mommy is shouting a lot.
That there is a big difference between the two homes.

I have tried to create a sanctuary for them here. They act out with me all the time. It is there way of leeting off the feelings associated with what they are going through.

What have you seen or expeirnced your spouce or ex doing?

How do you compensate for her behaviour and strive to protect them yet allow to develop as balanced indeviduals?

Are there articles or books thatyou would recommend that I read?

 

MJJ 

[scraps66]

Mindful, tough situations without question, and tough questions about the future.  Our stories resonate, I have a very skilled, high functioning STBx, suspected uNPD/uBPD spinkled with some anti-social PD, yes, anti-social, what sociopathic killers like "the Teds" have, Bundy and Kyzinski. 

The emotional abuse that I have experienced can be so subtle, but effective.  Mine is much more charming with the kids, now building up her bf to be "dad."  It's challenging at best to handle at times. 

With some thought I may be able to give feedback.  But, I have had an uphill battle.  My S4 and S7, S7 in partiuclar, is a handful for me to handle.  He is "overgifted" and undisciplined at his mother's house and I am left with the parental fallout to deal with when theya re with me.  I do not try to "buy" them as STBx does and I do not try to maek their mothers' house out to be worse than mine.  STBx preys on my children by making it clear to them however subtlely that "their friends" are around mommy's house.  Nothing more said, but the inferecne to those defenseless children is that, "mommy's house is better than daddy's house."

Your kids have hope, they have you, don't EVER forget that.

Good luck, enjoy your Sunday.

[Gettingthere]

I dont know the answer Mindful, but look forward to the replies as i am faced with very similar. Although i have custody, stbx is very emotionally abusive and i am sure will poison/alienate me from the children, the seeds of which were being planted even before we seperated. As it is harder to "prove" than physical abuse, its harder to get courts etc to see it.
My thoughts are with you Mindful and scraps66

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[MindfulJavaJoe]

My wife over disciplines almost military style.

She the feels guilty and over - compensates with sweets etc to offset the harm she has done.

In truth both are damaging and the mixed messages are confusing the kids.

[newlife3]

  Hi MJJ:

Have you read the Borderline Mother by Christine Lawson? Material on parental alienation and the strategies that go along with this may help, as often parents that engage in this have p.d.s.

Your children will learn that emotional safety through reliability, consistent boundaries as to discipline, problem solving, conflict resolution are provided by you and hopefully that builds resiliency and coping skills for them.. They feel safe enough with you to "act" out, which they can't with their Mum for obvious reasons.

[MindfulJavaJoe]

My wife struggles during the times when the children are with me.

This, i suspect, is one of the reasons why trying to arrange and agree access has been so difficult.
She hates long weekends. "That is to long for me to be without my babies" . ( note her focus is on her with this statement not the children's needs).

It has been suggested by senior members here that she does not see the children as seperate to herself. This has a ring of truth about it. It really set me thinking.

The latter may explain many of the aspects of her parenting style.

MJJ

[newlife3]

 Yes, the core of BPD is no core sense of self-identity so they need to emesh with their children.. Some BPD parents look very devoted to their kids, especially young children, who are dependent on their parents, when actually the parent is not solely focused on the needs of the kids, but  looking for their own needs first..ie: your wife is afraid to be alone as needs the kids to regulate her..

[Gettingthere]

It has been suggested by senior members here that she does not see the children as seperate to herself. This has a ring of truth about it. It really set me thinking.
The latter may explain many of the aspects of her parenting style.

Yes, because as children naturally try to become autonomous, (around age 7 onwards), BPD's perceive expressions of individual opinions and autonomous actions as a threat, and a further abandonment, as they are showing that they are seperate individuals - and so the BPD tries their hardest to control and manipulate the child back to where they think think they "ought" to be ie as one with the BPD parent; hence parenting issues/behavious can become worse around this time

[MindfulJavaJoe]

Key messages I try to get accross to my kids:

Look after yourself first and foremost.
Parents look after kids and Parenst do not need to be minded by their children.
If you are angry there is usually a good reason for it. Try to see why you are angry. The try to express your anger in a healthy way.

You are right about the kids being happy to act out in front of me. They know there will be sanctions but they know that I am fair,  if they are sitting in time out that I will talk to them after, hear what they have to say, validate their feeling and talk about what they could have done differently.

My uBPDw would much more likely say you are grounded for a week or go to your room for an hour and then later try to make up and be "friends" with them out of guilt.

I am glad that I started this thread. Clearly members are having to deal with these issues all the time.

MJJ

[newlife3]

   on what you are doing with your kids.

The greatest gift a parent can give a child is to teach them how to regulate their own emotions. ie: through unconditional love and consistent, reliable boundaries.

BPD develops not only due to an invalidating environment,& lack of attunement in attachment with caregivers, but becuase that lack of attachment causes the brain, especially the neocortex (frontal lobes behind our forehead) not to develop properly..This results in chronic emotional dysregulation, impulsivity, risk for depression. You may want to do your own research on latest findings of neuroscience and the brain..

The brain grows from back (brain stem where the flight or fight responses, pure emotion) to front  The neocortex (thinking ability) develops last and isn't fully formed till our 20's..The parenting strategies that you are using,namely consistency and healthy attachment, along with teaching kids how to regulate physiologically through meditation,  deep brething techniques,physical sports & or dance helps that part of the brain grow properly.

[newlife3]

 
For kids under 12 there are 2 fantasic story type books that teach kids how to regulate emotions:
Kids love the books..

Peaceful Piggy Meditation and the Moody Cow Meditates by Kerry Lee Maclean available at her website or Amazon..

[MindfulJavaJoe]

I ordered two books on meditation and mindfulness for children the other day. 

[DreamGirl]

Hi MindfulJavaJoe.

So, I am troubled with one of your statements. "My children have no hope."

I have to tell you that I have had to very much reshape my thoughts to quelch the doom and gloom of this kind of thought process when it comes to the children who are under my roof only part of the time. They all have their own story to tell and have their own future to dream of... and that is full of nothing but hope.

Some of the strongest, most beautiful people I've ever known have the most traumatic of childhoods.

I see our jobs as parents to not so much combat the inevitable, but build the resilience in our kiddos. I've said to you before that we must prepare the child for the path, not prepare the path for the child. Your kids have a mom who will always struggle in her role as a mom. Your choice was to leave the marriage and therefore, in my opinion, you have a better view on the outside looking in. You're still untangling yourself from the relationship and are just now kinda seeing things a little bit clearer. Don't be too hard on yourself (or her) in these moments, because we are all doing the best we really can do (even her).

If by chance you don't already know, I've found two workshops over-the-top helpful:

TOOLS: When the children of a BPD parent are at risk

TOOLS: Mindfulness for children under stress

I also absolutely love this article, which explains in terms what's going on in the mother/child bonding (or lack thereof) when there is a disordered mama. It has even helped me understand the pwBPD in my life a little bit better and have compassion for her in her own struggles, because I think she too has her own story to tell:

How a Mother with BPD affects her children


You're also among a wealth of knowledge on this particular board. Some of us have been at this for several years (post-divorce) and you can learn not only from our triumphs, but our mistakes too.


~DreamGirl

[Matt]

  Hi MJJ:

Have you read the Borderline Mother by Christine Lawson? Material on parental alienation and the strategies that go along with this may help, as often parents that engage in this have p.d.s.

Your children will learn that emotional safety through reliability, consistent boundaries as to discipline, problem solving, conflict resolution are provided by you and hopefully that builds resiliency and coping skills for them.. They feel safe enough with you to "act" out, which they can't with their Mum for obvious reasons.

The full title is "Understanding The Borderline Mother", and I think it's super-important (but frankly not very fun to read!).

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Borderline-Mother-Unpredictable-Relationship/dp/0765703319/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1321377507&sr=8-1

[Matt]

Hi MindfulJavaJoe.

So, I am troubled with one of your statements. "My children have no hope."

I have to tell you that I have had to very much reshape my thoughts to quelch the doom and gloom of this kind of thought process when it comes to the children who are under my roof only part of the time. They all have their own story to tell and have their own future to dream of... and that is full of nothing but hope.

Some of the strongest, most beautiful people I've ever known have the most traumatic of childhoods.

I see our jobs as parents to not so much combat the inevitable, but build the resilience in our kiddos. I've said to you before that we must prepare the child for the path, not prepare the path for the child. Your kids have a mom who will always struggle in her role as a mom. Your choice was to leave the marriage and therefore, in my opinion, you have a better view on the outside looking in. You're still untangling yourself from the relationship and are just now kinda seeing things a little bit clearer. Don't be too hard on yourself (or her) in these moments, because we are all doing the best we really can do (even her).

If by chance you don't already know, I've found two workshops over-the-top helpful:

TOOLS: When the children of a BPD parent are at risk

TOOLS: Mindfulness for children under stress

I also absolutely love this article, which explains in terms what's going on in the mother/child bonding (or lack thereof) when there is a disordered mama. It has even helped me understand the pwBPD in my life a little bit better and have compassion for her in her own struggles, because I think she too has her own story to tell:

How a Mother with BPD affects her children


You're also among a wealth of knowledge on this particular board. Some of us have been at this for several years (post-divorce) and you can learn not only from our triumphs, but our mistakes too.


~DreamGirl

Yeah, this is an important message:  we're right to be very concerned for how our kids are affected by the disordered parent, and to do everything we can to avoid the worst, but there is plenty of hope - the kids can do great.

My older two - SS34 and SD23 - are textbook examples of the "all-bad" kid and the "all-good" kid, and both have problems as adults because of how their BPD mom treated them - SS now sober for three years but his life was torn apart by alcohol and drugs, starting at 12, and SD is outwardly doing very well, but has some serious issues related to her mom's behavior when she was young.

But my younger kids - S13 and D14 - are doing great - both very happy, excellent students, full of confidence and joy - everything I could hope for.

You're doing the right stuff - both the legal stuff and the dad stuff - and I think you're taking care of yourself too, which is essential.  It's totally understandable that you have days when you despair - me too, especially when I was back where you are - if you didn't have days like that I would think you were out of touch with reality.  But it's important not to project that onto the kids, or let them see you struggling.  I sometimes told my kids, "I'm really sad right now because of what's happening with SS and with the divorce." but still you have to show them you are OK and functioning well, so they feel secure and don't worry too much...

[MindfulJavaJoe]

So, I am troubled with one of your statements. "My children have no hope."

DreamGirl:

I did not mean to sugeest that my children are "without hope". If I felt like that I would have thrown in the towel a lont time ago.

I feel that they currently have no hope of seeing her emotional abuse and manipulation for what it is. It is all the worse for its subtlety.

I agree that children are resiliant. I hope that this experience can in some way be turned in to a postive, becaise there are a lot of positives.

They are able to set their own boundaries. They express anger much more freely than adults do.

I do not seek to wrap them up in cotton wool to protect them from her abuse but to encourage their independant thinking and self confidece to a point where thet know when they are nnot being treat right. The see it for what it is, call it and do not tolerate it.

My son is superbly intelligent and articulate in a charming way. He is quick to point out my double standards at times and I have to agree with him and respect his opinion when he is right.

I want them to be independent, confident and self directed not enmeshed, smothered and codependent.

MJJ

[DreamGirl]

I want them to be independent, confident and self directed not enmeshed, smothered and codependent.

Good goal to have. 

It's also OK to be some of those things, and maybe not others.

We're all a little imperfect. It's not black and white either. I think I'm an OK person and could identify with every one of those attributes at some point in my life.

[Matt]

Yeah, these are very good and reasonable goals - helping the kids to be OK but not fixing their mom.  I had to repeat myself (OK, no I don't) but my S13 and D14 have been through a lot - their mom's problems, their big brother's problems, the divorce, moving, losing all their grandparents, all in just a few years - and they have come through it great - very positive and confident.

It may even be true that kids who face adversity and survive it will be stronger than other kids who had two healthy parents.  (Both Lincoln and Churchill had, I think, mentally ill parents.)

[prayingforgrace]

Mindful - great thread and I came to this board today to find something just like this.  I've had a very rough week dealing the the high-functioning npd/BPD ex as well.  He is still so intent on hurting me, he has now figured out a way to keep our son from spending more than five nights total out of the next 24 with me.  Between his normal weekends, Thanksgiving and then on top decided to take his one weeks vacation with him, though he won't even be spending it with him, he'll be working.  He will keep him out of school though and with relatives from what it sounds like...and most importantly - not with me.

The emotional games are equally as difficult for me right now.  My sweet, loving 3 yr old son asked me a few weeks back, "You like Daddy?"  I smiled and said "Of course I like Daddy" (ok, ok it wasn't entirely the truth but enough of it for my little boy).  And then in his innocent way stated so matter-of-factly, "Well, he no like you!"  Wonderful.  And of course he has my ss, 7, doing the same thing to our son. 

I was thinking of getting the book on Understanding the Borderline Mother.  Funny, my ex read it on the recommendation of our couples counselor last year.  He said his mother was on every page to the letter.  This was the beginning of the end for us, wondering if it is related. 

I do the same types of things you do.  Most importantly, I never stop him from having a meltdown - unless he is hurting himself  or someone else.  I just let him get it out and then speak with him about it later and validate to him that it is ok to be angry and upset, they are emotions just like being happy is an emotion.  I had noticed that he was overly concerned about the characters in any book who looked anything but happy.  He would be so serious and turn back pages just to ask why they were sad or angry - he was so upset by this.  So lately, I have been using books to validate that emotions are all ok as long as you don't hurt others in the process of feeling them. 

I understand your fear and never feel like I can do enough to protect my little  boy.  It is a heart-breaking feeling to say the least.

I wish you luck, you sound like a wonderful father and your children are very lucky to have you!

[adenuf]

Try and have regular debriefing sessions that discuss their mums behaviour, let them have a voice. My guess is they will disengage with her on some level in the future. They say the same sex parent has the greatest influence lets hope you have sons. My experience is children eventually work out their BPD parent is different. They become closer to the parent they can rely on and who is consisent.