Emotional abuse of children

[Think About It....]

Divorcing and living seperately.

Two daughters and one son.

My son causes me the greatest concern. I sense that he is angry.  Every now and again it comes out and he talks a little then shuts down and says "I'm fine".  Last night he admitted he wasn't and I said wouldn't it be a good idea to talk about it. Thankfully he agreed.

I just hope he has the courage to open up a little. I suspect if he isn't able to talk about it now it will be a bigger problem for him down the road.

MJJ

[MindfulJavaJoe]

Divorcing and living seperately.

Two daughters and one son.

My son causes me the greatest concern. I sense that he is angry.  Every now and again it comes out and he talks a little then shuts down and says "I'm fine".  Last night he admitted he wasn't and I said wouldn't it be a good idea to talk about it. Thankfully he agreed.

I just hope he has the courage to open up a little. I suspect if he isn't able to talk about it now it will be a bigger problem for him down the road.

MJJ

[JustSaying]

Do you get time to do things alone with him? Even just drive him somewhere? D starts talking at the most unexpected times. It usually comes out of the blue. I try to make those opportunities possible but not obvious.

[Matt]

Do you get time to do things alone with him? Even just drive him somewhere? D starts talking at the most unexpected times. It usually comes out of the blue. I try to make those opportunities possible but not obvious.

After we separated - all my kids acted out in different ways - S(then)8 rarely talked about stuff, except when we were alone in the car - him in the back seat, so we had no eye-contact - he would start talking about everything under the sun...

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[blackandwhite]

Trust is hard for a child of a pwBPD. Within your most intimate relationships, your words, looks, actions, feelings, needs...all are used against you. Your comfort object (parent) is also likely your abuser. Shutting down can seem very logical in those circumstances.

Showing him consistently that he is safe in revealing his true self builds that trust over time. Try to validate and accept. Ask questions, very gently.

When is he most open? JustSaying mentioned driving...driving is often a great opportunity as he doesn't have to look at you, which can lead to feeling overwhelmed.

[JustSaying]

Ask questions, very gently.

The questions I've found most effective for keeping her talking were the simplest ones: "Oh yeah?" "How so?" "Oh?"

Once you cross into the "So how does that make you feel?" territory, an astute child will become self-conscious of talking to an...adult...and become more guarded again.

[NorthernGirl]

My son causes me the greatest concern. I sense that he is angry.  Every now and again it comes out and he talks a little then shuts down and says "I'm fine". 

SS19 has been the "fine" child for years. It was his answer, even when it is clear now he was anything but. He went underground (most of this was before I was in his life) and stewed over everything that was happening -- his parent's divorce, his older brother getting to move in with Dad, etc. He turned to alcohol to cope, and was always reluctant to tell counselors much. Now he is in rehab but at a religious facility UPBDMom picked where there are no trained counselors. SS19 isn't religious and says he thinks most of the lectures he must attend are flawed. But he stays because he wants to please his Mom. And when we ask how he is these days, he will still give a qualified "fine". "I'm doing okay. I'm still trying to get my head around all this religious stuff. I'm sure I'll figure it out though." In other words -- don't worry about me, I'll be fine.

It is good to watch out for "fine".

[MindfulJavaJoe]

"fine" is how uBPDw would decribe herself all the time.

She supressed and repressed all her childhood and still cannot talk about it.

I would hope my children will have a better chance of having a better childhood and will learn to talk about their feeling better.

Thank you all for your advice. 

[JustSaying]

I have a personal take on the notion of 'fine' and emotional repression. I've done that with X, and it's simply because I didn't want to talk to her. It was shorthand for "you don't really care how I am so skip the pretense."

It came up in the CE report. X claimed that D was emotionally shut down and unable to talk about her feelings. In the very next sentence, intentionally and perfectly juxtaposed, the evaluator wrote that when D was with friends and father, she was warm, open, animated, and expressed a wide array of emotions. It was priceless...I wonder if the point will be lost on X though.

[MindfulJavaJoe]

Interesting.

CE noted the children were more relaxed with me. CE assessment of their r/s with uBPDw was described in less warm terms.

[MindfulJavaJoe]

The emotional abuse has begun.

My children have told my "Mom is shouts at us a LOT".

uBPD/uNPDw told the children that if that "if you do not behave I will leave you all and never come back.

My youngeast was almost unconsolable. 

My stbxw prides herself on being a model mother. This is her mask the world.
What they experience behing closed doors is entirely different.

I have ordered an unbrella for Alex.

 

[Matt]

I'm sorry but I don't remember if they are in counseling.  If you can find someone who is entirely focused on counseling kids that might be best.  I found a very good counselor for my kids by talking to the school counselor, who recommended the lady who had her job before her, so she knew the kids' school, teachers, etc. very well, and had instant rapport with them.

About "I will leave you all and never come back" - of course it's unlikely their mom will ever do that, but I think this can be a process of helping the kids to get some emotional distance from their mom, as soon as possible - just as we all learn to do.  We tell each other, "Take a step back and look at your wife as a force of nature - recognize that what she says isn't about you, it's about her - hear what she says but don't feel her emotions - have a screen so her emotions don't provoke equally strong emotions in you" - I think that's good for kids to learn too, though maybe hard to explain to them.

One part is separating the behavior (like "saying hurtful things") from the person, so the kids can "love Mom" and also acknowledge that the behavior is wrong.  This can seem to go against what we're all told - "Don't trash the other parent" - but you can do it by carefully reinforcing the child's own perceptions about the behavior:  "Wow, it sounds like it hurt you when Mom said that.  It's not right to say things that hurt somebody." but not "Mom is mean."  If you can reinforce the child's perceptions and appropriate emotions that will validate the kids and help them become stronger.

Frankly they really need to be alienated from her - not the right word, I should say "they need to get some emotional distance" - and the sooner the better, before they find other, less functional ways of coping with her behavior.  For my SD, for example, she learned to not perceive what her mom was doing - she could sit right next to her while her mom was saying something horrible, and later claim she never heard it - so her perceptions shifted and twisted to avoid the need to deal with her mom's behavior, and now as an adult she's stuck with those twisted perceptions.  I wish she had gotten some distance when she was little, and she might be healthier now.

[on the mend]

Glad I found this thread.  My D13 just returned from a wk with uBPDxh and this was one crazy week.

Ex called the first night he had our D ranting and raving about how he can't do this, he's working too many hours at work, he can't be the only responsible parent making sure D has homework done (school had called me about her retaking a test, she didn't do to well on) and why did the school not call him, what had I done to remove his contact information from the school... on and on it went. Then he said, if you want to go back to what the divorce decree says, that's fine with me (this means more time with mom). 

I said of course, she can come home. I'll come and get her. I was out the door within 5 min and on my way.  Ex then calls back asking what I'm doing and I reply "coming to get daughter". He says no, why would you do that? To which I reply, that's what we discussed just a few minutes ago.  He then proceeds to try and correct my perception of the conversation and ends with that's not what I said at all and hangs up. I immediately call D to see what's going on and she says she's doing fine she'd like to stay so I go back home.

Yesterday I asked D how the week was over at dad's and she said ok until today. She said she left an orange juice carton on the counter and walked away to use the bathroom & her friend was going to get some juice so she left it out for her.  Dad then shouted at D and her friend for leaving it out and pushed D.

As he is now pushing daughter, I certainly want to go back to the divorce decree limiting the amount of time D spends with him.  What would be a good way to handle this?  I'm not sure that I want to bring up the pushing, as he will simply say that never occurred.

Thanks for your advice!

[Matt]

Glad I found this thread.  My D13 just returned from a wk with uBPDxh and this was one crazy week.

Ex called the first night he had our D ranting and raving about how he can't do this, he's working too many hours at work, he can't be the only responsible parent making sure D has homework done (school had called me about her retaking a test, she didn't do to well on) and why did the school not call him, what had I done to remove his contact information from the school... on and on it went. Then he said, if you want to go back to what the divorce decree says, that's fine with me (this means more time with mom).  

I said of course, she can come home. I'll come and get her. I was out the door within 5 min and on my way.  Ex then calls back asking what I'm doing and I reply "coming to get daughter". He says no, why would you do that? To which I reply, that's what we discussed just a few minutes ago.  He then proceeds to try and correct my perception of the conversation and ends with that's not what I said at all and hangs up. I immediately call D to see what's going on and she says she's doing fine she'd like to stay so I go back home.

Yesterday I asked D how the week was over at dad's and she said ok until today. She said she left an orange juice carton on the counter and walked away to use the bathroom & her friend was going to get some juice so she left it out for her.  Dad then shouted at D and her friend for leaving it out and pushed D.

As he is now pushing daughter, I certainly want to go back to the divorce decree limiting the amount of time D spends with him.  What would be a good way to handle this?  I'm not sure that I want to bring up the pushing, as he will simply say that never occurred.

Thanks for your advice!

Usually best to start your own thread so the conversation can be focused on your stuff on that one, and stay focused on Joe's stuff here...but Joe's pretty easy-going so I bet he won't mind a little hijack among friends...

Is your D13 in counseling at all?  I would strongly suggest that, for a couple of reasons.

One is, she can learn ways to cope and become stronger.  Kids who learn positive ways to cope with stress (like walking away, getting emotional distance, and in some cases standing up for herself) are less likely to choose more destructive ways of coping with stress (like withdrawing, substance use, etc.).  Things you might tell her will go in one ear and out the other, because you are a party to the conflict, but if she can develop a good relationship with someone who is only there for her - and won't take sides between the parents - the same messages will get through.

The second is, if you find a qualified counselor, she will probably be required to report domestic violence.  You can't tell her what your daughter told you - that's second-hand and you won't be her client/patient/whatever.  But if she gains your daughter's trust, and if the physical stuff continues, sooner or later your daughter will probably tell the counselor, and she may be required to report it, and then it will be on the record - probably a good thing.

I talked to the counselor at my kids' school - they were 8 and 10 when we separated - and I was amazed at how well she knew the kids.  She recommended her predecessor, now in private practice, and I took them to her for about three years, and it helped them a lot.

About the schedule, if you believe it is the right thing to do, I would suggest a very short and simple e-mail stating that the schedule will be according to the court order:

Per our court order, D13 will be with you this coming weekend, from 6:00 p.m. Friday through 6:00 p.m. Sunday, and the same days and times every alternate weekend after that, and with me the rest of the time.  The holiday schedule will also be as in the court order.  (Or whatever the court-ordered schedule is.)

Don't justify it, don't negotiate, don't argue, just state it and follow it (if that's what you think is best for D13.)  You can tell your daughter, "I don't think it's good for you to be with him as much as you have been - it hasn't been working out that well - so we're going back to the schedule we were on before."  You can explain it nicely to her, but don't argue or get defensive with her either, just state that it's what you both agreed to, and it was working OK, but then you agreed to a change, and that hasn't worked as well, so you're going back to what worked.

[on the mend]

Thanks Matt.  I'll go with the short straight forward email no talking on phone.  Didn't mean to hijack the thread 

[Matt]

Thanks Matt.  I'll go with the short straight forward email no talking on phone.  Didn't mean to hijack the thread 

Most of us find e-mail better than phone, because we can edit it - write down everything you're thinking, but then boil it down to just the basics before sending it - and also because it leaves a record, so later you don't have to argue about what was said.  (And if his reply is abusive you have a record of that too.)