PERSPECTIVES: From idealization to devaluation - why we struggle

[Lila]

I have been going through this dysfunctional dance with a friend and it is clear to me that I just keep trying to recreate the relationship that I had with my pwbpd.  I never saw my part in it before but now I do.  Thank you for helping me see what I was doing.  This thread was very tough to read and just what I needed.  Many thanks, Lila

[MaybeSo]

My Ex was with his wife for 16 years before they divorced and he met me.

His ex wife was very invested in maintaining the relationship at any cost and was fine with a very cold, 'roomate - type' relationship, she got her emotional needs met through her girlfreinds and treated him like an errant man-child she just put up with.  She did  not seek or demand intimacy from him.

That was NOT the case in our relationship.

[Skip]

Each of us is a "lonely child". (Very good insight  )

We are definitely not all Lonely Children    

Here is a test. 

What is your total score?  Let us know in the poll above and tell us (post) whether you feel good or are you struggling from effects of the BP relationship?

For your entire adult life:
1= Never     2=Rarely     3=Occasionally       4=Frequently      5=Most of the time       6= All of the time 

Never -------- 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Rarely -------- 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2

Occas -------- 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3

Freq -------- 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4

Mostly -------- 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5

Always -------- 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6

Question ----------- I feel fundamentally inadequate, flawed, or defective I feel lost I feel desperate I feel lonely I feel humiliated Even if there are people around me, I feel lonely I often feel alone in the world I feel weak and helpless I feel left out or excluded I feel that nobody loves me

     

To score:  Add the numbers you circled and divide by 10.   

Score ------------ 0.0-1.5 1.6 - 2.5 2.6 +

Interpretation ---------------- Normal    Abnormal  Seriously Abnormal

[rich5a]

I am that lonely child. I am 46, and I have walked around with that for many years. I survived my abusive parents. Sexual abuse from my mother. I kicked heroin and alcohol. I work hard and am respected at my job, but I harbor the loneliness, resentment and loss of identity. I am that lonely lost child... My xbpdgf filled those things as I strived to maintain her love.  She is so volatile, IDK? I used to ask why God put her in my life? As if it was a cruel joke after what I have overcome in my life she was/is the most difficult.... Perhaps it is the final chapter and I have been given all the tools to free myself from a lifetime of bondage. I am affraid to do the work. face the core, cry...what happens if I get to deep and dont make it out...
need to think
thanks
Rich

[Clearmind]

I was not accustomed to showing self love because much of this was not permitted as a child. For me personally, I was to serve my uBPD father and have absolutely no autonomy for my personal growth. I was never taught to set boundaries (and they were dismissed when I did have any) and was prohibited from looking after my needs and instead was required to put others before me ~ enter BPD.

The idealization phase was fantastic and all that I needed was mirrored back ~ fulfilled my own feelings of loneliness and worthlessness.   

[OTH]

Codependency (or codependence, co-narcissism or inverted narcissism) is unhealthy love and a tendency to behave in overly passive or excessively caretaking ways that negatively impact one's relationships and quality of life. It also often involves placing a lower priority on one's own needs, while being excessively preoccupied with the needs of others.[1] Codependency can occur in any type of relationship, including family, work, friendship, and also romantic, peer or community relationships.[1] Codependency may also be characterized by denial, low self-esteem, excessive compliance, or control patterns.[1] Narcissists are considered to be natural magnets for the codependent.

...as well as bpds.

I need some clarity and have a question...

 Are you saying the "lonely child" is an NPD? (like mentioned in previous post)

or is the "lonely child" a codependent? or neither, and something else?

Both.

Each of us is a "lonely child". (Very good insight  )

Whether we call ourselves codependents, or have narcissistic traits (which most of us likely do), or both, doesn't make a difference.

Even in case of real NPD's, it holds true for them as well.

[brokenhearted1]

I want to learn more about the "lonely child" and narcissism; they sound all too familiar. When reading about the lonely child, "understanding" and "obsession" really struck a chord with me. I have some  's to work on it seems. How do you come to terms with things that happened during your childhood though? I want to make changes and eventually have a healthy relationship.

What's the next step? I plan on ordering the book "Search For The Real Self : Unmasking The Personality Disorders Of Our Age by James Masterson" recommended by Clearmind.

It is a huge relief to know there are people out there that understand. THANK YOU!  xoxo

[diotima]

Schema Mode-Lonely Child / Vulnerable Child  The  Lonely Child / Vulnerable Child is a maladaptive schema characterized by feelings of being lonely, isolated, sad, misunderstood, unsupported, defective, deprived, overwhelmed, incompetent, doubts self, needy, helpless, hopeless, frightened, anxious, worried, victimized, worthless, unloved, unlovable, lost, directionless, fragile, weak, defeated, oppressed, powerless, left out, excluded, pessimistic.  The Lonely Child is prone to act in a passive, subservient, submissive, approval-seeking way around others out of fear of conflict or rejection; tolerates abuse and/or bad treatment; selects people or engages in other behavior that directly maintains the self-defeating schema-driven pattern.

The analysis from which this came was brilliant, and I am catching up.

Radical acceptance comes when you realize that what was mirrored really wasn’t you- it was what *you wanted others to give to you*   It was <<Understanding.>> Try to give that to yourself.

Yes, it is understanding, but even more it is recognition, which perhaps is the same thing or at least in the same category. I am a "lonely child" in the analysis and what I crave is recognition and what I feel I got during the mirroring phase was someone who recognized me for who I am, which is what I always wanted since I NEVER got that in my family. And then of course the BPD wasn't really doing that after all. He didn't recognize me at all (as my T pointed out many times).

Diotima

[diotima]

A Borderline, on the other hand, has a deficient sense of false self as well as limited ego functions and borrows the false self of others to fuse to as a security measure.  They value that borrowed “self” very much and it is never devalued and discarded- but rather, is absorbed intrapsychically and grieved. The concept of that good self is returned to often, if only in yearning and fantasy.

I am wondering about this (also related to my previous post). The BPD has a deficient or partial self and goes around mirroring others to feel more whole for awhile. I don't think, at least in my case, that my ex was mirroring my false self. I think he was eliciting something in me that was not recognized as a child but that it really is me and mine and it was brought out and experienced in this r/s--something incredibly valuable to me. This is not to say that the BPD had any clue the significance of this since he was feeding off it. What do you mean by the "false self of others"? Is this the same as the "borrowed self"? I just want to get clear on what you are saying. It is a false self for them I think, but it sure wasn't for me. I think this is why there is so much pain for the non--this mirroring brought to life something very real for us. It was the r/s that was an illusion and then a feeling that once the BPD does the disappearing act and goes on to a new host, they take access away. That isn't true, but it is the feeling. Hence the grief for us. I don't understand that the BPD grieves what they get from us at all given that they replace it almost instantly (mine always had new hosts lined up). Of course, when those r/s's broke up he wanted me back until I wouldn't take him back any more. Could you clarify all the relationships between the ideas in that passage?
Thanks much,
Diotima

[samsara]

I am definitely the "lonely child" schema, as the child of a BP/NPD mother, my psychological coping mechanism was to either disassociate / detach entirely (like a turtle pulling into it's shell) and wait out the "storm", or to soothe, cajole, comfort the object of my need for love.

These days, things are a bit "better" for me - while still living under the same roof as my exBF (UBPD) I can see this dynamic much more clearly.

He is now playing out the idealize/devalue dynamic with a woman (an ex-gf from 15+ years ago) who wants to be with him, but is still married to someone else.   He will spend hours talking to her on FB, talking to me about her (boundaries?  what boundaries?), and then the next day (or even the same day/night) going off on a long winded tirade about how she isn't worth it, is (various derogatory terms) because she is married, etc.

He does seem to be a very small child trapped in the body of an adult, with the same level of emotional maturity of a small child.

Seeing this, understanding it, has lead to a wee bit more compassion on my part, but it also deepens my pain in knowing that I was indeed never truly validated in this relationship.

I think that's probably the key there - the lack of validation and true understanding of the "non" on the part of the borderline.  

Untreated, they lack the capacity to be truly giving without the expectation that you will always do what they want you to do (fill that seemingly endless void in their psyche)

Heavy stuff, indeed.

[Neverknow]

Unfortunately, (or fortunately), I recognize myself in these posts. We have to know there is something that makes us fall for these type releationships (this is my second one) and it's most likely our own, not so great mental health.  I resemble the altruistic NPD, I'm afraid, and I think I got it the exact way described here.

[cyndiloowho]

This discussion had summed up my r/s, for sure! I have definitely always been the lonely child. And I can see my H as the angry child. His anger/self has always been shame based.

In our r/s, the idealization/devaluation came in the form of "Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde". Of course, I never heard about BPD until last year, so I could never understand how the pendulum could swing so far. And it always seemed like Mr Hyde would appear so suddenly, just when things would be going seemingly well. But, of course, when things were going well, I relaxed my stance quite a bit.

Schema model and the tenets of the therapy can help us deal with our early maladaptive schemas and move toward the "Happy Child".  

A lot makes sense now, in the context of this discussion!

[MyLife]

Much thankfulness to Clearmind, 2010, and Skip - I have read your posts several times, and am most grateful for the knowledgeable points regarding my role - my Self.

[Slowlybutsurely]

What I didn't know was that I am a classic "Lonely Child," (captured in the recent, What Helped You to Heal post).  In reading that post, I saw myself totally clearly. I also understand why there was such a draw to the the BPD ex and why our relx was so insane.  

I have a few questions, though, if anyone can answer:

1. Does this mean the relx problems were equally my fault?  And the relationship's end? Yes, the dreaded and horrible question we all agonize about so much.  It seems from the post that it was both of us. But she's PD and I am not. How to reckon all this?

2. How to fix myself? I have a therapist, but she doesn't get any of this at all. Other than that, I really like her as a T, and it was hard to find her, so I am very hesitant to give it up. Does one need a T who really understands BPD to fix the self? That's a tall order, it would seem, and I live in the Bay Area, which ain't the sticks.

Okay, I guess I had a number of questions, and maybe they aren't dumb, but you get the idea.

Happy Sunday to you all.  Hi!

[BPD Magnet 1]

What I didn't know was that I am a classic "Lonely Child," (captured in the recent, What Helped You to Heal post).  In reading that post, I saw myself totally clearly. I also understand why there was such a draw to the the BPD ex and why our relx was so insane.  

I have a few questions, though, if anyone can answer:

1. Does this mean the relx problems were equally my fault?  And the relationship's end? Yes, the dreaded and horrible question we all agonize about so much.  It seems from the post that it was both of us. But she's PD and I am not. How to reckon all this?

As you continue to grow and ''do the work''.You will see ''your part'' in all of this.You will begin to see what it is about you that attracts this and STAYS.The sad truth is,most of these relx are doomed from the get go.

2. How to fix myself? I have a therapist, but she doesn't get any of this at all. Other than that, I really like her as a T, and it was hard to find her, so I am very hesitant to give it up. Does one need a T who really understands BPD to fix the self? That's a tall order, it would seem, and I live in the Bay Area, which ain't the sticks.

Yes, i need a ''T'' who can dig deep into my past violent crazy upbringing to see where this all started for me.My answers believe it or not are in my childhood.Many many patterns i learned go hand and hand with my choices of today,tomorrow and yesterdays.

I  put me there. No one else did this to me.  I was even warned from her ex husband to run, within the first month!

Again i can only talk about my own opinion.I believe most of us that come here ''wanna vent'' and play the ''victim''.

But I wonder how many ''DO THE WORK''.

[patientandclear]

I don't think that the anyone is saying that the two people are equally causing the problem.  I think the lonely child is so very vulnerable to the overtures made by the abandoned child (pwBPD), and why once the spiral starts, the lonely child gets so locked in and it is awful to extricated her/himself.

I don't think there is any version of this where the abandoned child/pwBPD signs on for and is able to engage in a stable, open, loving, affirming r/s.

If the pwBPD tries to engage with someone who is not a lonely child, or a lonely child who is recovering and not as vulnerable as she once might have been (which I think is my story), it may be that the full spiral does not play out.  It does not mean that those people get a lovely, blissful relationship.  In my case, I drew boundaries and separated myself after one or two loops.  So I've got nothing left of the r/s ... I just escaped with somewhat less damage than I might have earlier in my life.  And for what it's worth, it was still intensely damaging.  I've been separate from him but still trying to undo the harm caused by the collapse of the idealization, which I fully and enthusiastically bought into; and trying to accept that the boundaries I drew were correct, that I wouldn't have that blissful r/s you speak of if I had just come back for more.

[nonhere]

Not dumb questions.  Really tough questions!  I'm struggling with these questions.  

I had an immense   go on in my head when I read the description of the Lonely Child and Abandoned Child.  I am clearly the Lonely Child.  So clearly!

1. Does this mean the relx problems were equally my fault?  And the relationship's end? Yes, the dreaded and horrible question we all agonize about so much.  It seems from the post that it was both of us. But she's PD and I am not. How to reckon all this?

This question can have so many different meanings and purposes.  I'm tempted to cut to the chase and say - to you and at the same time to myself - why should it matter whose "fault" it was?

But for me to say that would be:
- cheating
- pretending that I'm further on in my struggle with this than I am;
- boring, in that it doesn't engage with my own confusion or with you.

I can only talk of my own experience, but I hope it's helpful to you and others.

It does matter whose fault it was.  Because this is a r/s that I put enormous effort and dedication into.  If there's something fundamentally wrong I've been doing, I want to know about it!  Otherwise I might do it again.  That's the key to forgiving myself for what happened.

I read this incredible analysis of the Lonely <-> Abandoned Child interaction, and one thing that jumps out at me is how partial, personal and individual my own expectations are.  I am not a "typical reasonable member of the human race" - if there is such a thing.  I am a typical Lonely Child..  Which is a particular kind of human being.  And I haven't been aware, I think, until reading the post, how much this colours my reactions to other people.

This is a bit frightening.  It means I don't have an authority to speak in judgment on my ex.  Because I don't represent humanity, or even the "good, reasonably well-adjusted" part of it.  (Again, if there is such a thing).  I am quite an odd person myself.  All I can do is be clear about how what she did affected and affects me, and hold to it: not as a final judgment, but as just my judgment - and let that be good enough.

This has been very difficult for me to do.  My particular flavour of Lonely Child is very good at never passing final judgment.  There is always more understanding to be gained, by hanging in there.  Loyalty and endurance DO get rewarded, in this world, often.  You DO uncover the treasure, after sifting through tons of dirt.  But my determination never to give up is a bit out of whack.  Exaggerated.  Sometimes some form of final judgment is needed, for action - for example, for me to definitely, finally, break off relations with my exgf. Which I never managed to do.

Lonely Children have grown up very fast, I think.  If there's one thing I'm good at, its grownup.  I might be ripping into million pieces inside, but I'll carry on.  In my Lonely Child persona, I am: resilent, enduring, independent.  Able to walk away from anything.  Including love; comfort; ease; luxury.  This is what Lonely Child is good at.  Until he/she falls apart, that is.  (And that's what this r/s has done for/to me: it's blown Lonely Child out of the water.)

So a pwBPD is incomprehensible to me.  It just blows my mind that someone can be so dependent on others, can get others to do stuff for them so easily and guiltlessly (a bit of envy on my part there, I think  ), can trample on others so heedlessly.  It's hard for me to comprehend this kind of behaviour as a stable personality, rather than as a phase or crisis which the pwBPD will grow out of.

The lonely child feels that in order to deal with acting out of the Borderline- the lonely child must project the aura of grace, compassion and understanding upon the Borderline and also guide, teach and show the way- because after all, that_

[rotgut]

The post on the Lonely Child vs Abandoned Child, is the most helpful, validating, and clarifying article I have read to date on bpd. Thank you so much for posting. I am the Lonely Child. A year out and still reeling from the devaluation phase. Still trying to get back to the idealization phase, just didn't realize it until now. Wow! What a a ha moment.  My wife had no identity that was not mine. My interests were her interests, which I enjoyed, but found odd at the same time.  This makes so much sense to me. She would latch on and eventually spoil virtually everything I was interested in.

Now she is in her home country with new Mr. Prince Perfect, poor bastard. She has found her another lonely child to protect, mirror, and latch onto. Just them against the world. Until they turn on each other. At this moment I am so glad to be out of this dance and to see if for what it was. A great big illusion. No wonder I have been so confused by "her" behavior all this time.

[Slowlybutsurely]

P&C: You and I seem to go to the 'so, it was all my fault then?' thing as second nature... Got to stop doing that!  Thanks for your clarification. I need to read the post again, to see more clearly why I was drawn to the ex in first place. There is so much in the post, that it is hard to take it all in. And especially since everything I read in it is just one   after another...

Nonhere, this is so me: Lonely Childs have grown up very fast, I think.  If there's one thing I'm good at, its grownup.  I might be ripping into million pieces inside, but I'll carry on.  In my Lonely Child persona, I am: resilent, enduring, independent.  Able to walk away from anything.  Including love; comfort; ease; luxury.  This is what Lonely Child is good at.  Until he/she falls apart, that is.  (And that's what this r/s has done for/to me: it's blown Lonely Child out of the water.)  

I have always assumed that I am the strongest, most independent person in a room, however big the room     I have spent my entire life cultivating strength, my self, and independence. It seems I had to, given some things in childhood, and it's this I need to explore more in therapy. With the ex BPD, all of this was blown to hell and back. Just like you, it's blown Lonely Child out of the water, in a way I've never experienced. Still trying to get my mind around it. She used my strength and self to give herself a self, mirrored it back to me, I craved understanding (no one has ever understood me, quite frankly; it's always been my job to understand/save everyone else), and then all of it was twisted and thrown back at me, and she was the victim, me the abuser. Sheesh, I thought I was smart,  , but it has hard to wrap my head around it all.

I have a complaint ( ) about this board...  Some posters on here set the bar so high--in terms of understanding BPD and the nons who get involved with them--that your average or even above average therapist is going to fall short, very short.  I don't need a T to understand BPD necessarily, but I want them to have the insight into nons that some posters here have in spades. It is hard to find. If all the posters on this board were once involved with BPDs, maybe this says something about the high calibre of the Nons?    There are a lot of really smart people here.

Okay, on with my day...

Thanks to you all, and another Happy Sunday.  Hi!

[acknowledgement]

Can you expound on that mirroring part with the BPD? I too am very strong, like Teflon, especially in crisis and in "saving" mode...this year, however, I was down emotionally due to two tragic family deaths (suicide and terminal cancer)...and my best friend (ha) BPD was not present or available for much compassion, no wake, funeral, etc...and I was still expected to support her and her cycles of conflict with family members..finally, this year I emerged stronger and less tolerant of her neediness and complaining, negativity, conflicts, etc. and was less responsive and "rescuing" about them...just told her get over it, let it go, maybe look at it this way...I think she did not like this lack of attention, availability, and turned the tides on me painted me black over a wrongdoing perceived 2 years ago...and silent treatment and text "not working for me". poof. done. 30 plus years of supportive best friend...please explain more about the mirroring so I can start to explore my role in this dysfunction and never repeat it again! Also, any insight on what happened?