Breaking LC - Meeting up with kids and exuNPDh tomorrow - stupidity or not?

[Think About It...]

Hi

I need some advice and opinions. For those of you who has been following this board for a while, you might know that my break-up with exunpdh and the following three years has been hell, including false accusations of child abuse, child-custody battle, etc. etc. THe current situation is that he has visitation-rights with my two daughters now aged 5 and almost 7 every other weekend and once a week + half of the holidays.. My daughters often come home telling they've been scared etc, and on one occation my youngest one came home with bruises.. Despite having evaluators in, they have not been able to diagnose him (he is very good at portraying himself as a very good and caring father), so at the moment things are kind of left as they are, despite the fact that my daughters - and in particular my oldest one, is not happy to go visit her dad. As a way of trying to accomodate for this I asked my exunpdh if he and the kids wanted to meet at a cafe now during the holidays (during the time they are with him). THis way I get to meet the kids, and I also know that they are ok at least for the time they are with me...Yet, I do have mixed feelings conserning this, asking myself is this is just one of my codependent/enabling fleas? I also know that this is not in line with the NC-rule (or LC-rule for those of us who has kids). Any comments on this are highly appreciated? Is it stupid of me to meet him /them like this? I should mention that he was emotionally abusive (and on occations also 'mildly physically abusive of my oldest son (his stepson) now age 13, as well as with me. He also dysregulated so much after the break-up (taking off with the kids) that I've come to believe that this guy is potentially dangerous, and that he should not be trusted.

[peace]

Hi

I need some advice and opinions. For those of you who has been following this board for a while, you might know that my break-up with exunpdh and the following three years has been hell, including false accusations of child abuse, child-custody battle, etc. etc. THe current situation is that he has visitation-rights with my two daughters now aged 5 and almost 7 every other weekend and once a week + half of the holidays.. My daughters often come home telling they've been scared etc, and on one occation my youngest one came home with bruises.. Despite having evaluators in, they have not been able to diagnose him (he is very good at portraying himself as a very good and caring father), so at the moment things are kind of left as they are, despite the fact that my daughters - and in particular my oldest one, is not happy to go visit her dad. As a way of trying to accomodate for this I asked my exunpdh if he and the kids wanted to meet at a cafe now during the holidays (during the time they are with him). THis way I get to meet the kids, and I also know that they are ok at least for the time they are with me...Yet, I do have mixed feelings conserning this, asking myself is this is just one of my codependent/enabling fleas? I also know that this is not in line with the NC-rule (or LC-rule for those of us who has kids). Any comments on this are highly appreciated? Is it stupid of me to meet him /them like this? I should mention that he was emotionally abusive (and on occations also 'mildly physically abusive of my oldest son (his stepson) now age 13, as well as with me. He also dysregulated so much after the break-up (taking off with the kids) that I've come to believe that this guy is potentially dangerous, and that he should not be trusted.

[JustSaying]

What is your goal for meeting with him/them?

[peace]

What is your goal for meeting with him/them?

Nothing but making the time the girls are with him hopefully better. They were not looking forward to 6 days alone with him. This way they get a break. I must admit that I also miss them (the girls). COnserning my exunpd there are times I feel sorry for him, and wish he would get help for himself. I also find it hard to be enemies for such a long time (although it is not my making), especially since I've known this guy since I was 6 years old. I really don't know what is the best way to approach things - involving the police, court system and child service center has not helped much so far (basically because a lot of the stuff is his word against mine), and based on my experiences from this 'battlefield' I have come to believe that this a war that I cannot possibly win (afraid that if he finally has to confront his issues, he will run off with the kids again, potentially harming them/ me/my son/ himself etc. etc.). So I've started to wonder whether I'll help my daughters better if I support him the best I can, making him feel good about himself, and potentially manipulating him to leave this 'warmode' he seems to be in.  Am I fooling myself?

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[JustSaying]

There are a lot of issues wrapped into one collection. It may be that professional help is needed to untangle them into separate components that each have their own solution. There are times when the right therapist can help, not to fix a flaw in us, but to see through the stuff cluttering our heads and help us make sense of it.

So I've started to wonder whether I'll help my daughters better if I support him the best I can, making him feel good about himself

This is one of those issues tangled in with the others. One possibility is that this speaks to the Florence Nightinggale  in you, the part that wants to nurse and cure people. That's as much about us and our need to fix things/people as it is about others and their needs. Or, another way to look at it is to ask how well that worked in the past. I know I tried this with X, and the more consciously I tried it, way beyond normal measures, the more obvious it was that the hole in her that needed so much validation was just getting larger. I couldn't make her feel good about herself. In fact, trying to make them feel good about themselves might even feed their feelings of not being good enough.

I must admit that I also miss them (the girls)

I'm glad you included this, because it'd likely be part of any honest answer. This one's more about our needs and not theirs, so the answer lies within us. When D spent a week with her mom, it was a challenge for me, too. I tried to plan for that by filling the week with activities, and particularly remodeling her room. It kept me from missing her so much be/c the work involved her via her room. I get that 6 days is a long time. It will pass as long as you keep breathing. Find things to fill your days; do things you couldn't do with the girls; try something new; meet up with friends...the days will fly off the calendar.

Nothing but making the time the girls are with him hopefully better. They were not looking forward to 6 days alone with him. This way they get a break.

This is logical, but I'm not sure it'll help. There's a lot that could go wrong. What if the girls start crying that they want to come home, not be/c anything is specifically wrong, but just because they're homesick? Everyone would feel worse. Or what if he starts begging you to let him come back in front of the girls? Or...or...or...

Have you been talking to the girls? Do they seem ok?

[peace]

Thanks for your very thoughtful reply Justsaying. I think your observations are quite good, and I do think I have some more soul-searching to do with regard to this.

In any case, I did meet up with them, we had a nice time, mostly me and the kids, playing out in the snow and afterwards we all went to a cafe and played some cards etc. But once I had to return back home, the girls got sad and sobbing, and I ended up saying that we could possibly meet up on new years eve ( two days from now) as well, upon which my ex agreed. I know this is a dangerous development, and I most certainly see that this is not really a good solution. I left him because I had to save my children and myself from him - so how can going 'back in' - even the slightest - be helping them in any way? Not to mention how my oldest son possibly feels with me meeting up with his abuser..

[JustSaying]

Not to mention how my oldest son possibly feels with me meeting up with his abuser

That's a really serious bit of invalidation. Be careful with that or you'll lose him.

the girls got sad and sobbing

Unfortunately predictable. My experience is that kids benefit from predictability, as in, when we're with mommy here's what happens and when we're with daddy here's how it is. And that's ok, assuming they are in a safe, healthy environment. When the predictability is turned upside down, such as seeing mommy while with daddy, it's unsettling and brings out anxieties. Kids can normally adapt to different circumstances--they live with mommy, report to teachers at school who have their own expectations, maybe have a pastor at church. Changing that up can be confusing to them.

[JulesC]

Really feel for you in this situation. Just Saying's comments are great. More soul searching is the way to go, and getting support from a good therapist who has understanding of PD's could be invaluable.
It's so easy to believe that we can make things better with the person with PD but we can't. Meeting up with him and your girls during his time with them will upset your girls & will create more complexity and problems with him. I'd say that's a guarantee. Keep posting, find support wherever you can. Do you have any support system to help soothe you when the girls are with him? What else can you do to help you whilst the girls are with your ex? It's a long time and must be so hard on you.
 

[peace]

Really feel for you in this situation. Just Saying's comments are great. More soul searching is the way to go, and getting support from a good therapist who has understanding of PD's could be invaluable.
It's so easy to believe that we can make things better with the person with PD but we can't. Meeting up with him and your girls during his time with them will upset your girls & will create more complexity and problems with him. I'd say that's a guarantee. Keep posting, find support wherever you can. Do you have any support system to help soothe you when the girls are with him? What else can you do to help you whilst the girls are with your ex? It's a long time and must be so hard on you.
 

Thanks Jules.
I think I would benefit from using the small supportsystem I have even better (problem is they all have their own families etc. etc., and it's been three years now...). I know that keeping myself busy helps me. But this does nothing with the problem my girls are facing when they are with him (except me taking care of me which is good of course). I just hate sending them off to this abusive man, without anyone to back them up. They think it's normal to being raged at several times a day.

[JustSaying]

They think it's normal to being raged at several times a day.

No. They might think it's normal to be raged at by him several times a day. That distinction matters a lot.

Maybe an angle is to narrow your focus to this element.

Aside from the raging, on the less-than-half-time they are with him, does he feed them, bathe them, provide for them in a safe/healthy manner? If yes, then follow one path; if no, follow another.

Assuming the major issue is the raging, then you have the very same issue I face. D's mom is a rager. She generally makes sure D is fed, etc, and there's nothing physical, but the rages/guilting/insults/sarcasm are out of control. There are differences, of course, but a lot of similarities. Before I ramble on about what we've done to help, maybe you can confirm if the raging is the big ticket issue or if other concerns vis-a-vis the kids are as much an issue.

[peace]

They think it's normal to being raged at several times a day.

No. They might think it's normal to be raged at by him several times a day. That distinction matters a lot.

Maybe an angle is to narrow your focus to this element.

Aside from the raging, on the less-than-half-time they are with him, does he feed them, bathe them, provide for them in a safe/healthy manner? If yes, then follow one path; if no, follow another.

Assuming the major issue is the raging, then you have the very same issue I face. D's mom is a rager. She generally makes sure D is fed, etc, and there's nothing physical, but the rages/guilting/insults/sarcasm are out of control. There are differences, of course, but a lot of similarities. Before I ramble on about what we've done to help, maybe you can confirm if the raging is the big ticket issue or if other concerns vis-a-vis the kids are as much an issue.

Yes the raging is the BIGGEST ISSUE. It's terrible as he expects them to be perfect - meaning sitting still, having good manners, eating up their food, keeping quiet, letting him take 10000000000000000000000000000 photos of them without complaining and with a big smile on their faces etc. etc. not to mention confirming his ego especially when there is someone around to see them. He has all the traits of a narcissist, but combined with some BPD - I would diagnose him with being a covert hypersensitive narcissist, (but then again I am not holding a ph.d in phychology, only in political science). The abuse is mostly emotionally, but also mildly or even moderately physical on occations. Pinching, showing, holding them really hard (two times my youngest have had bruises). Most of the time, yelling, shouting at them, carying them to their room. were they have to behave and come back an appologize (for things that are normal for children their age). I'd love to hear how you and your daughter copes with this.

[JustSaying]

First, I'm sorry the children have to deal with this. They are the innocents.

Here's some stuff that I believe have made a difference for my daughter. Yes, she's 14, so she can process and say things that a younger child cannot. But some of this may still apply, and even more can apply as the kids grow.

* The kids are with you about 2/3 of the time and with him about 1/3. Right there it limits the amount of time he has in which to rage at them. If you were to decide, as I did for awhile, that it was better to all be together as one family so that I could protect D 100% of the time, you'd probably come to find that it just meant D would be exposed to the rages 100% of the time. Best thing I've ever done for D is let her have (in our case) at least 75% of the time where she is exposed to just healthy behavior. My being with X didn't save D at all...just kept her 100% anxious.

* Surround the kids with lots of healthy adult role models. My D has teachers, coaches, neighbors, friends, and family, all of whom are good, decent people. She has male role models and female role models. None of them rage at her or guilt her. And then, a minority of the time, she is with her mom. The scale is weighted so heavily in favor of 'normal' that her mom's behaviors have marginalized her more and more every day. This is conscious by me. D unequivocally knows that her mom is the outlier, so there's no question of her being uncertain what's right and what's wrong. See, it's not just me vs her mom. It's me, her sport's coaches, several relatives, friends' parents...all on the same page. Her mom doesn't stand a chance. I have not been shy about talking to her about these behaviors and what is reasonable and what isn't. I don't talk about her mom, just behaviors.

* Teach the kids coping skills. Use a T if necessary, with a focus on what they can do if they are raged at. D has learned when and how to fight back. When to stand up for herself and when to walk away. It's imperfect, but it's a lot better than not having these skills. In general, T wants her to always make her feelings known. Says it might not change mom's behavior, but at least it's always on the record and mom can't claim she had no way to know. There are phrases like, "When I am yelled at it scares me." Here's one article: From Risk to Resiliency--Protective Factors for Children

* Accept that we can't save them from every hurt. And we can't change X. That will save you some angst. Ground yourself in that reality and then work within it.

* D has very obviously separated emotionally from her mom. Reunification therapy has been ordered. We'll see how that goes. The intent is to help D figure out how to have the best relationship that's possible with her mom, which, if her mom doesn't change, may not be much of a relationship at all. I was told of a specific tool that may be used (it was given as an example) that may apply in your case, too. D and X may be given an object like a 'quiet stone'. If X is raging, D would grab the quiet stone, show it to mom, and both would have to stop the discussion immediately and not talk to each other for some time period. It would give time for the rage to diffuse. That's just a possibility and I expect to learn more soon.

* I'm also still documenting things that happen. Building my list. If ever appropriate, I'll push for even more custody.

* Eat away at parenting time. I'm not aggressively doing anything...just taking all the time I can. I try to NEVER give up time with the kids. X regularly has other stuff she plans or just does. I happily take D at those times, so the court-ordered 70% time has become 75% or 80% or more. D has learned that I'm always there for her while X regularly is not there for what she needs. Gives me more influence and makes me more believable.

* Activities help. Keep the kids busy with sports or dance or art or music. Gives them skills, confidence, additional role models. And if it's a weekend activity, then...oh, darn...that uses some of the kids' time with their dad. In our case that already existed before the separation. Big help for D.

* Consult with their teacher/school counselor. They should be made aware of the kid experiences with you and the dad, and may have suggestions for you, including an appropriate T for the kids.

Hope there are some useful ideas in there. Feel free to question/challenge any of them. What works for one may be different for another.