Do We Enable Cheating By Our BPD Partners

[colt81522]

As per SeekingBalance's suggestion, I am posting this question... .do we in our role as emotional caretakers enable extra-marital cheating behaviors by our BPD partners? Because they feel confident that we are there for them, does that in essence give them permission or empower them to look for superficial affirmation of their worth and for validation from lovers who attach no emotional strings to them?

[Mouser]

Yes.

More secure, more bored, more infidelity.

[artman.1]

Colt,

    It is way more complicated than that.  We do nothing to enable affairs and cheating.  The person who cheats is lying and sneeking around, full well knowing they are doing wrong.  Actually, if you have any belief system, they are breaking the higher power's rules of committing adultry.  They know this, but are still driven to behave in this manner.  The BPD traits of fear of abandonment, and intimacy will drive them to do absolutely insane things, because they are INSANE!  After they have cheated, they have insane coping skills, that cause them to project their actions onto others, and by doing this, they have relaesed their guilt onto others.  All this insanity is begun within their own mind, and finishes up within their own mind.  The real big problem with this behavior and Insanity, is they have a tendency to go out and have unprotected Sex, and can catch STD's, resulting in passing on these STD's to their unsuspecting and innocent partner.  :)ue to this serious health threat, we must remain on our guard, and keep vigilance.  My Sister-in-law is a BPD, and was having affairs, winding up with AIDS.  She discovered this when one of her BF's suddenly died of AIDS.  She has had this disease for over 30 years, and nearly died several times.  Luckily, she did not infect her partner, but I wonder who else she infected, as this is a real epidemic, of great proportions.

Art

[Mouser]

By staying in the relationship the BPD begins to lose respect for the non - even if the non is completely unaware of the cheating. The BPD cannot help but see the non as a cuckold and gradually begins to loathe him and split him black. The lack of respect of the BPD for the non fuels the infidelity and gives a twisted sense of right to the BPD to engage in further extrarelationships.

After the first infidelity (there ends the honeymoon) the crazy-making begins because the BPD both needs the non to stay with her to make her whole but simultaneously hates him for being a cuckold - even if he is unaware of her infidelity.

The end of the relationship occurs when the BPD has set up her new object host and can no longer staying in the dishosest relationship.

Even if the non learns of the infidelity, the BPD will begin to hate him for staying.

Cheating must be a deal-breaker for the non's self respect - the BPD will continue the infidelity and leave at some point later anyway.

[colt81522]

Mouser,

You indeed paint a bleak but probably honest picture.

I think my BPD gf is trying to have it both ways. She tells me she loves me (during the times when she doesn't hate me) but says she doesn't know in what way because she doesn't feel physically attracted to me. This has such a manipulative sound to it because I feel she is using that stance to try to justify the notion of cheating in her own mind.

At the moment I know she is having an EA with at least one person. I believe deep down she knows this behavior is wrong though because she tries to hide it from me and lies to me about it.

[artman.1]

colt,

    You must stay on gard.  First the Emotional Affair gets going because she feels her emptyness needs to be fulfilled, since she feels so unsure of herself.  Once she starts getting some support in the EA, the EA RS will surely result in a Sexual Affair.  Watch her, and stand by your boundries, and limits.  You cannot stop her from cheating if she really must cheat, but you can remove yourself from the health risk, and emotional pain.  You must get strong, and become in charge of your own protection in this RS.  Most of these types of RS's wind up in failure as the NON, finally has enough abusive treatment, and breaks it off, or the BPD finds someone else to torture.

Art

[OnceConfused]

I think my BPD gf is trying to have it both ways

BINGO, you are beginning to see the PICTURE.

[artman.1]

All,

    Usually the NON-BPD partner in a typical BPD partnership/Marriage has very weak, or no limits and boundries, and poor conviction to enforce these boundries.  Most relationships between BPD's and others, are with Codependents.  The codependent person just exactly fits the needy puzzel of the BPD person.  The problem with Codependents, is they have weak limits, and boundries, and are weak at enforcing them and self care.  We codependents are so busy taking care of others that we ignore ourselves.  I am DX'd as a Codependent myself, and fit all the criteria.  When the BPD experiences the need to fill the emotional void, that cannot be filled by an army of partners, they will seek others to fill in their needs emotionally, and thus the beginning of the transition to full blown sexual affairs.  If they feared abandonment from their partner, for seeking others, they would be more likely to not wonder, however, if someone is needing to cheat, nothing can stop them.  We are talking about INSANITY here!  BPD's are very Mentally Ill, and will not ever completely make sense as to how they behave at any given moment.

Art

[MowTin]

All,

     Usually the NON-BPD partner in a typical BPD partnership/Marriage has very weak, or no limits and boundaries, and poor conviction to enforce these boundaries.  Most relationships between BPD's and others, are with Codependents.  The codependent person just exactly fits the needy puzzel of the BPD person.  The problem with Codependents, is they have weak limits, and boundries, and are weak at enforcing them and self care.  We codependents are so busy taking care of others that we ignore ourselves.  I am DX'd as a Codependent myself, and fit all the criteria.  When the BPD experiences the need to fill the emotional void, that cannot be filled by an army of partners, they will seek others to fill in their needs emotionally, and thus the beginning of the transition to full blown sexual affairs.  If they feared abandonment from their partner, for seeking others, they would be more likely to not wonder, however, if someone is needing to cheat, nothing can stop them.  We are talking about INSANITY here!  BPD's are very Mentally Ill, and will not ever completely make sense as to how they behave at any given moment.

Art

This is true. I had weak boundaries. With my ex-wife I allowed her to go out to clubs with her single friends even though it was wrong for a married person to do so. I avoided the argument instead of standing up for what I believed.

But ultimately what happens with BPD spouses is they feel unloved. No matter what you do, they will think you don't care about them and don't love them. My ex-wife complained that I didn't care about her and this stranger who didn't know anything about her cared.

Long ago someone warned me to leave her and told me that this is exactly what happens. They destroy the relationship with their bad behavior then they complain that you don't love them. That's when they cheat and blame it all on you. It's totally crazy but that's how it goes down.

[tzwong]

Hi Colt,

I am in agreement with other posters here.

I know that I conciously gave permission to my BPDxgf to cheat on me and never enforced boundaries when she managed to screw that up even. I tried to take a VERY permissive approach to it because I felt that taking a hard line would accomplish absolutely nothing but to drive her away. I am co-dependant, but independant enough to accept that I wasn;t going to personally fix her, so I just let it go.

The end result is that she ran away anyways. Specifically right now to be with a new guy (I have a sneaking suspision that he is pretty codependant too, given how CRAZY his exgf is  ) that she is showing much more respect for... .in fact, their relationship is almost identical to the one we had when we first started.

Long story short, I gave her my permission to cheat... .it didn't work out, but I don't regret it.

BPD is really this illogical.

[seeking balance]

Do we enable cheating?

No

Do we enable them not getting help when we stay?

Yes

Cheating for a pwBPD is not necessarily about the sex; it really is about attaching to another person because of the core no sense of self.  If you are perceived as engulfing them or abandoning them - they will look to another source to soothe the intense emotions.

Like most adaptive behavior; people learn over time what works.  When the hard emotions come into play for a pwBPD, very early on - they learned to attach to another person sexually or emotionally to soothe that fear.  When we stay with them, we do let them know it is ok - people rarely change unless the consequence to the actions is far worse than facing the fear itself.  This is emotional survival for them.

My ex cheated on everyone she was with before me; I knew this - she was in T and working on her issues when we met.  I believed that I was and would be different because I believed people could change.  I also had no idea BPD even existed.  This maladaptive coping technique was so engrained that when her abandonment/engulfment issues hit (her NPD mother died), eventually it was the only way she could soothe herself.  I, in turn, became the punitive parent in her eyes. 

The fact about cheating is - people will treat you how you allow them to.  We cannot control others, but we can control ourselves.

[HardDaysNight]

Yes.

More secure, more bored, more infidelity.

Yes, but when you set boundaries and stop walking on eggshells, that can also make it easy for them.  More insecure, less satisfied, more infidelity.  That is, you are no longer paying attention to them (i.e., your sense of self no longer revolves around what the pwBPD thinks of you) and they are deperately gong to get that attention and make you pay.

[artman.1]

    I have been living for 43 years with my UBPDW, and she cheated about 36 years ago, and filed for a divorce.  She was listening to her younger sister who was getting a divorce.  She started partying all night every night, and came home to watch the three sons, 3, 4, & 5 yeqrs old at the time.  I followed her to a night club one night, and then came by there later and saw her making it in the car with some guy.  The next week she had a party in my home while I was out of the vacinity working for the weekend.  When I came home I discovered her lover had stolen all our sterio equipment I bought while in the Navy.  I counter sued, and we went to MC, and then reconciled.  I soon after this, moved my family 1500 miles north.  This separated her from bad influences.  She stopped all intimacy soon after that, and has continued to refuse intimacy for 35 years.

     At this time, I am working on me, and am improving my life.  If she decides to cheat, I will use that to immediately decide to eliminate our marriage and move on with my life as I have started already.  On another post, it was said that to go on with life and she can catch up if she can.

Art

[MowTin]

   I have been living for 43 years with my UBPDW, and she cheated about 36 years ago, and filed for a divorce.  She was listening to her younger sister who was getting a divorce.  She started partying all night every night, and came home to watch the three sons, 3, 4, & 5 yeqrs old at the time.  I followed her to a night club one night, and then came by there later and saw her making it in the car with some guy.  The next week she had a party in my home while I was out of the vacinity working for the weekend.  When I came home I discovered her lover had stolen all our sterio equipment I bought while in the Navy.  I counter sued, and we went to MC, and then reconciled.  I soon after this, moved my family 1500 miles north.  This separated her from bad influences.  She stopped all intimacy soon after that, and has continued to refuse intimacy for 35 years.

     At this time, I am working on me, and am improving my life.  If she decides to cheat, I will use that to immediately decide to eliminate our marriage and move on with my life as I have started already.  On another post, it was said that to go on with life and she can catch up if she can.

Art

After I caught my ex in a second affair (can't confirm any of them were physical) in the same year, I refused to forgive her and moved towards divorce. It was difficult because it felt like I was being the unforgiving one. She complained that when her friend was caught in an affair her friend's husband begged in tears for her not to leave. She complained that I didn't love her like that.

Well, at the time, I felt that the person doing the cheating should be the one doing the begging. Later I found out that her friend, even after she reconciled with her husband, continued to cheat with a coworker.

IMO, generally if someone cheats on you, you should dump them and move on. If you take them back you are most likely setting yourself up for more of the same.

I'm not sure why you spent 36 years in a marriage without any intimacy. I hope in your remaining years you can find a little happiness.

[colt81522]

So all this seems like a lose/lose scenario.

If we stay in the RS we, in essence, are giving tacit approval that we will be there for them even though they are cheating. We wind up getting hurt.

But if we call them on it, enforce our boundaries, and propose to leave the RS because of the cheating (or the intent to cheat) that will drive them into the arms of someone they perceive as valued, white, and able to meet their needs - as opposed to us who are devalued, black, and the cause of all their unmet needs. We wind up getting hurt.

[artman.1]

Colt,

    I must say you are correct.  "If the left one don't get you, the right one will."  This is just a lose-lose situation, because it is BPD land, and BPD land is INSANITY!  I just hope I can succeed in improving my codependent behaviors, and find some happiness in my life>  Yea!

    Maybe the best approach would be cut her off intimacy yourself.  That will definitly affect her mentally, IDK, whether pos, or neg, but protects you.  Like I said, earlier, her promiscuity can get her an STD, like my SIL, who has AIDS.  

Art

[andi]

I'm new to this board, and I recognize a lot of the similarities with my husband's behaviour, but I find my situation to be different, since I caught him cheating with the same hooker over a 5 month period... .so there obviously is no need for any sort of emotional attachment? We spend a lot of time together and I have no evidence of him having an "affair", only evidence of paying for sex... .what does this mean?

[artman.1]

andi,

    This simply does not make sense to me, unless he requires some strange Kinky type of sex that no-one would agree to.  My concern for you, is the hooker could give him an STD, and most of those are terminal diseases.  You must protect yourself.  Have you had tests to prove he has not given you some kind of present.  Prostitutes are very vulnerable to catching STD's.  I cannot absolutely say this is the case, as I only know what the US Navy trained us on, and I have never been to a Prostitute.  I can say this, When my Nuclear Submarine I was on in the navy, as a Reactor Operator, left the Phillipines to go on Patrol, after about 11 hours of base Liberty only to allow us to get personal items from the PX, after two days at sea, there was nearly 100 cases of STD's out of a 110 man Crew including Officers.  I was appalled.  I never saw any prostitutes on the base.  Everyone had to get a horrible Penecillon Shot whether you did something or not.  I really think the normal male is pretty low on personal morals.  All, I can say, is I do not behave like that.

Art

[seeking balance]

I'm new to this board, and I recognize a lot of the similarities with my husband's behaviour, but I find my situation to be different, since I caught him cheating with the same hooker over a 5 month period... .so there obviously is no need for any sort of emotional attachment? We spend a lot of time together and I have no evidence of him having an "affair", only evidence of paying for sex... .what does this mean?

In your situation, sex would fall under the criteria of:

4.    impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.

Artman is correct about unprotected sex and STD's - whether with a prostitute or not.  You will want to protect yourself.

[HardDaysNight]

So all this seems like a lose/lose scenario.

If we stay in the RS we, in essence, are giving tacit approval that we will be there for them even though they are cheating. We wind up getting hurt.

But if we call them on it, enforce our boundaries, and propose to leave the RS because of the cheating (or the intent to cheat) that will drive them into the arms of someone they perceive as valued, white, and able to meet their needs - as opposed to us who are devalued, black, and the cause of all their unmet needs. We wind up getting hurt.

Colt, I think the thing I had to realize is the cheating really has nothing to do with the non.  It is all inside the pwBPD and the inability of the BPD to take responsibility for their actions.  It seems, the more hurtful and the larger the betrayal the more the pwBPD works to blame the non.


So on infidelity, they will or they won't.  As the reactions by a pwBPD are disorder and not logical it is hard to impossible to know if you act a certain way they will remain faithful.  So I act in the way I can live with and respect.  If my BPD/NPD wife wants to twist that to justify her actions, so be it. 

[colt81522]

HardDaysNight,

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm so confused and hurt at this point I'm still trying to sort out what bothers me the most - hearing her tell someone else she loves him when she chokes before she can say it to me, the thought of the actual cheating be it emotional or physical, or the lying to me.

All of these things kind of throw me off base when they happen and I never quite know how to process them. She tells me things that make me think our relationship is going one way - we come to some sort of agreement - and then BOOM something else happens to make me think we're going in the complete opposite direction. I constantly feel like the goalposts that define my reality keep getting moved.

So maybe everything all goes back to lying. I know that sometimes she evens lies about things that seem inconsequential. I know I have to rely on myself but I'm wrestling with the trust issue a lot.

[HardDaysNight]

colt,

    I know in large part what you are going through, not so much the more blatant cheating.  Then again I realized that I don't really want to know about my wife's actions in this regard.

  The moving goal posts is something many of us living with a pwBPD experience.  Sadly, I have had my trust betrayed too many times, have had her break too many promises to trust the pwBPD in my life again.  My trust had lasted about 10 years.

   Now I can trust her to act in certain ways, but I no longer can trust her with my feelings, dreams, how my day went, or even to have an open conversation without me having to take on the mantel of therapist to ensure we can even have a conversation instead of drama.

   I would leave this moment if it was just me.  So my advice and view is colored by that.   

[Lostone1314]

By staying in the relationship the BPD begins to lose respect for the non - even if the non is completely unaware of the cheating. The BPD cannot help but see the non as a cuckold and gradually begins to loathe him and split him black. The lack of respect of the BPD for the non fuels the infidelity and gives a twisted sense of right to the BPD to engage in further extrarelationships.

After the first infidelity (there ends the honeymoon) the crazy-making begins because the BPD both needs the non to stay with her to make her whole but simultaneously hates him for being a cuckold - even if he is unaware of her infidelity.

The end of the relationship occurs when the BPD has set up her new object host and can no longer staying in the dishosest relationship.

Even if the non learns of the infidelity, the BPD will begin to hate him for staying.

Cheating must be a deal-breaker for the non's self respect - the BPD will continue the infidelity and leave at some point later anyway.

Yep I caught my exgf sexting naked pics and bedroom secrets to an ex... she was blind drunk at time so I stupidly forgave her but did try to discuss what was going on... she refused to discuss it so I dropped it... what I didn't know at the time  she was physically cheating with another possibly more...

I feel shameful I didn't toss her out when I caught her sexting and even more shameful I tried to salvage our relationship at the end not knowing she cheated...

The day we broke up I got this horrible avoidant look with the words "I'm dissapointed in myself and I don't know what's wrong with me" and when I brought up the sexting she got very defensive... I still didn't suspect the physical cheating till a month later when her phone bill came to my email then I knew and got an admission

[apollotech]

Because they feel confident that we are there for them, does that in essence give them permission or empower them to look for superficial affirmation of their worth and for validation from lovers who attach no emotional strings to them?

I think this is true and well stated. When they feel "confident" that the primary emotional caregiver attachment is secure, they will look for "affirmation" and "validation" elsewhere. The primary emotional caregiver provides a known, secure fallback position. By being a good and dependable partner, that indirectly (not of our own making) gives then the leeway to wander.