Totally Grossed Out

[Think About It...]

Vent / Sanity Check

After decades of being nonreligious X joins up with a very extreme bunch and insists on indoctrinating the tween kids.  Recently one of the leaders from a different area died.  The kids met the guy maybe once.  X takes the kids out of school to attend the funeral a couple of hours away.  X then FORCES the kids to kiss the dead guy’s hand against their objections.

Am I the only one who thinks it is highly inappropriate to force kids to kiss a body that has been dead for days for some 80 year old man they don’t even know?  Does it make it better or worse that hundreds of other people were kissing the same hand?   I find it extremely creepy and a perfect way to spread all sorts of nasty germs.

[beyondbelief]

Vent / Sanity Check

After decades of being nonreligious X joins up with a very extreme bunch and insists on indoctrinating the tween kids.  Recently one of the leaders from a different area died.  The kids met the guy maybe once.  X takes the kids out of school to attend the funeral a couple of hours away.  X then FORCES the kids to kiss the dead guy’s hand against their objections.

Am I the only one who thinks it is highly inappropriate to force kids to kiss a body that has been dead for days for some 80 year old man they don’t even know?  Does it make it better or worse that hundreds of other people were kissing the same hand?   I find it extremely creepy and a perfect way to spread all sorts of nasty germs.

[agast84]

I can see why you would feel that way about the whole situation. I would feel exactly the same way you do. Anachronistic signs of devotion/respect for the dead should be done away with for the very reason you you worry. Overall, I feel that the germs is the least creepy and the indoctrination is more alarming to someone such as myself. How did the kids handle it?   

[JustSaying]

Yuck. Do you have any recourse?

I've had all final decision making. For the CE, x asked that she have final decision making on all religious matters. Thankfully the evaluator saw through the charade and noted that her involvement in religion was quite recent and the request was an unreasonable power play rather than a concern for D's spirituality.

Seeing as this is one of the main decision making areas, shouldn't this be subject to your approval or involvement?

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[beyondbelief]

Thanks for the thoughts.

I wouldn’t consider them to be moderate by any standard and am not pleased the kids are involved.  X met up with them by accident about a year before we separated, went once and came back drooling and gaga eyed.

The way things work here is each parent is responsible for the moral and religious training of the children when they are with that parent.  X has asserted over and over that my unwillingness to adopt her beliefs is a sure sign that I am an unfit parent.  She also tried to have the court order me to take them every day they are with me and they are open 7 days a week.  The judge just rolled his eyes at all of that.  

When the kids told me about the funeral they looked like they were going to throw up and were very creeped out.  About the only thing I could say was that if it happens again they should refuse and call me to pick them up although I know it isn’t an option.  About the only recourse that comes to mind would be lip transplants and an amnesia pill for the kids.

The X has informed me that there are people all over the world continuously praying that whatever evil is inside me will be released.  So far it doesn’t seem to be working.  Perhaps she thinks if she yells loud and nasty enough there will some kind of exorcism.     

[catnap]

One one hand, they have just had a very negative experience with her religion.  If there is a next time, they can do an "air kiss" and not make contact with the hand. 

The X has informed me that there are people all over the world continuously praying that whatever evil is inside me will be released.  So far it doesn’t seem to be working.  Perhaps she thinks if she yells loud and nasty enough there will some kind of exorcism.

If your head starts spinning. . .

[tog]

The X has informed me that there are people all over the world continuously praying that whatever evil is inside me will be released.  

  Talk about projection!  

Sounds emotionally abusive, to me, quite frankly, to make a child kiss a corpse's hand. I don't care if it was that child's beloved grandfather, they shouldn't be forced to do something so macabre that they find frightening.

Don't know how old your kids are, but seems like they will need to learn to say NO to BPDmom in the future. Probably would have brought wrath on to them, though.

We try to help SO's son realize that he doesn't have to agree with his mother (or father) on everything and it's OK to stand up for himself when necessary.  Would she have had a meltdown right in the funeral home in front of everyone?

[Sir5r]

This is a Horrible traumatic example of abuse.

First off the kids hardly knew the deceased.

Secondly, they were removed from school - obviously, so everyone else there would see how important this new obsession is to your EX.

Third - to make them kiss the hand of a corpse at their age is going to have a permanent effect on them.


My BPDw was taken to her great grandmothers funeral when she was 6 or 7, it still creeps her out when she talks about it - and they were close.

When our own daughter passed away at 6 months of age almost 20 years ago that had an effect on her handling of the funeral and grieving process.

Sir5r   

[beyondbelief]

While I knew there was nothing really that could be done, it was nice to receive the sanity check.

Thank you all for your thoughts.

[Matt]

I wouldn't worry about the germs, because of how the body is prepared.  (Not an expert on that though.)

I remember when my son was about 7 or 8 - near the end of our marriage - I noticed that when his mom was fussing at him - telling him to do something - he would say, "O-Kayyyyyyyyyyyy!" - dragging it out to mean, "OK, I'll do it, now shut up!" - not exactly disrespectful but pretty clearly telling her not to go on and on.

I thought that was a very good thing - he was developing a backbone - the ability to stand up to her without misbehaving.  I think that's super-important, that the child learn to believe in himself and his own judgment, without fighting the adult or rejecting her authority.

I'm not sure we can make that happen, but we can support it when it happens - when the child begins to develop his own beliefs and express his own needs.

You can't control that when they are in their mom's care, but I like your idea of letting them call you if she is going to far.  My kids have cell phones and they know that if they call I'll come get them if I can, though they haven't done that except for practical reasons (like their mom's car is in the shop and they need to get somewhere).

[JustSaying]

Have your objections been made known to her? Even though you each have the right to make choices when the kids are in your respective care, that doesn't mean there are no boundaries. Is any communication appropriate, even to say you do not support removing the kids from school for such reasons?

[beyondbelief]

The CE noted they were an extreme bunch.  If an organization could have a PD they would probably be near the top of the list.  Technically they aren’t a cult however there is a lot of similarity such as secret names for each other, endless ritual, everyone is equal though some are much more equal, etc.

In their view every other religion has become corrupt and they are the one true path remaining.  Embalming, cremation or even certain lifesaving medical procedures would offend their God.  I did some reading online and found they sometimes wait a couple of years then open tombs to discover if whatever is left smells like flowers. 

There was also the factor of kissing the slobber left behind by the hundreds of other people that went before them.  Fortunately there weren’t any physical health consequences this time.  I don’t know what the physical or mental health risks were but do know they could have been ZERO. 

Their mother puts them in the middle by interrogating them and tells them not to tell me things.  If I express my opinion there will be backlash.  They will end up reliving the experience.   At the least she will lecture them about the need to keep secrets.  They will likely get a lecture on how stupid I am and how wonderful it is that she tells them the truth. 

In my opinion going from no religion to this kind of thing in very short time span is a form of B/W thinking.

[Matt]

I'm sorry but I don't remember your kids' ages, or what the custody situation is...?

One way to combat ideas you don't think are sensible is to expose the kids to other ideas.  You could take them to other churches and talk about what those beliefs are;  give them books to read that have interesting ideas;  choose movies and TV shows that have ideas in them and then talk about those.

As examples, "The Lion King" is one of my favorites, for a lot of reasons.  It talks about a child's role, the parent's role, and destiny vs. choice.  I don't agree with everything it suggests, but it's not overbearing, so you can enjoy the movie and talk about it openly without being entirely one way or the other.

My kids are 13 and 15, and we love the show "Lost", which shows many different characters, with different beliefs, in different situations, and how their beliefs affect their actions.

Just a couple of examples off the top of my head - I'm sure you have your favorites.  Filling the kids' heads with a number of different ideas - faith-based and rational (maybe some that are both) - can help them understand that people that believe in this or that aren't crazy or evil, and can empower them to make their own choices about what to believe.  Given all those choices, maybe they won't be at much risk of choosing the one your ex chose...

[JustSaying]

Their mother puts them in the middle by interrogating them and tells them not to tell me things.  If I express my opinion there will be backlash.  They will end up reliving the experience.   At the least she will lecture them about the need to keep secrets.

My D's T told us it's important to stand up to the poor behavior and get your objections on record. She said it may not change the behavior, and it may get D yelled at, but being able to state displeasure is important for the well-being of the child. And by getting the objection on the record, X is not able to say that no one ever said anything so she assumed there was no problem.

You have access to the kids' school records. It'd be easy to check their attendance, see an absence that confused you, ask them why they were absent (obviously you know why), and then communicate to their mom that missing school is inappropriate, etc. That would give the kids some cover.

Maybe that doesn't make sense for your family dynamic. In ours it does, and putting X on that kind of notice would have her thinking twice before doing it again. And x might run her mouth at D about it, and D wouldn't be happy about that, but some things warrant taking a stand, and D understands that, too.

kissing the slobber left behind by the hundreds of other people that went before them

Many churches have faced that issue with communion. And many college students with other stuff passed around. Hmmm, may have said too much! Ha ha.

[Matt]

You have access to the kids' school records. It'd be easy to check their attendance, see an absence that confused you, ask them why they were absent (obviously you know why), and then communicate to their mom that missing school is inappropriate, etc. That would give the kids some cover.

This is an interesting idea.  I can imagine that done by e-mail, in little pieces..."Did the kids miss school Monday?"  "Why did the kids miss school Monday?"  "Did they know the man who died?"  The other parent may tell the truth, and get you to where you already are, but then you would have a record - he took them out of school to go to the funeral of a man they didn't know - or he might lie, and that could lead to somewhere too - if you can show he is lying to you about the kids that would not work in his favor...

Are you hoping to make things better by changing your ex's behavior, or by reducing the time the kids spend with him, or by helping them deal with it - giving them coping tools?

[beyondbelief]

Fortunately our school district posts every grade, tardy and absence on a daily basis to the internet and they send out daily automated emails.  X sent me an email that night that whoever it was had “reposed” and it was necessary to attend.  I replied that I did not agree and told the kids going to school was more important in my book that going to a funeral for someone they didn’t know. 

Corpse kissing was omitted from the email and I only found out a couple of days ago.  For whatever it is worth it was their first funeral.  They told me that they didn’t want to go anywhere near the body let alone kiss him and tried to get out of it by volunteering in the kitchen.  After the forced kiss she allowed them to volunteer and they are quite happy to get away.

We do a lot together to give them different perspectives of the world.  I want them to be able to make their own decisions when they are ready to do so while retaining respect for people that are different than they are and opinions that differ from theirs.  While I prefer they not follow in their mother’s footsteps on this, I would respect it if they did.

As described my post was more of a vent and sanity check than anything else.  Best case would be some coping skills for the kids.  They are still in elementary school so boundaries are tough for them to erect now. 

Note to Matt, I am the Dad think you might have given me a sex change in your last post. 

[Matt]

Whoops, sorry about the sex change...

Sounds like you are giving them good perspectives on the issue.

Depending on their ages, I would probably tell them, "I don't agree with making you go to funerals like that.  Not all funerals are like that - we'll go to another kind some time so you can experience it.  Next time, you don't have to let anybody make you take part in anything you aren't comfortable with.  Call me and I'll come pick you up if I can."

[beyondbelief]

Thanks for the comments and support. 

I spoke with L about another matter this morning and mentioned this episode.  L says it might be a good idea to contact CPS.  They may or may not investigate.  If they choose to do so she would likely receive a letter admonishing her to not repeat it.

[BentNotBroken]

Ugh! My uBPDex decided to "Get Religion" as part of her total remake of herself before I had even moved out of the house. Unfortunately she also decided that my 9 month old son should be part of it too. In 16 years with her, she had only attended church services at weddings or funerals. She was actually anti-organized religion and very vocal about it. Now she is lonely and is dragging my son into an environment that he is not ready for, and I am not OK with. However, as with everything else in our relationship, she ALWAYS gets what she wants. If she doesn't, there is hell to pay until she does!

The upside of this is that it is something that probably won't last. She is extremely flaky about anything that requires commitment and self-sacrifice, so in a few months after she has met a new man, she will be on to the next thing, whatever that may be. She is kind of like the weather in Michigan, if you don't like it wait five minutes and it will change.

[JustSaying]

However, as with everything else in our relationship, she ALWAYS gets what she wants.

It does not have to be that way. There are strategies and tools for breaking that cycle.

Going into the custody evaluation, x staked a claim for religious decision-making. I had been granted all final decision making by the judge in the temp orders, and was hoping for same in final orders. But x was trying to carve out religion.

The CE saw through it. He noted that x's involvement in a religion, and a new one at that, was quite recent and seemed designed to influence the custody process (akin to a jailhouse conversion) and to find a way to exert power over D. Thus he denied her request and also gave me all decision making.

A sound strategy, careful execution of the strategy, and the typical dysfunctional behaviors of the pwBPD can achieve good results. They only get what they want all the time if we're complicit in allowing it.

[LostinBPDland]

Hmmm.  Calling CPS might be a little extreme but changing the language of your parenting plan might be the ticket.  Maybe saying neither of you could join your children to any church?

If you are religious, then you already know they've been exposed to much worse things than this in the Bible.  Murder, mass murder and threat of eternal damnation if they didn't obey an unseen Authority.  All very traumatic to the mind of a child.  So, if you are lucky, they will at least moderate their ways because of this incident.

Legally, nothing seems to be out of place with your story.  You are able to setup your plan to exclude such behaviors, that may be the route to go.  Group mentality can be so dangerous when children are involved.

Good luck to you.