Dating someone also with pwPD experience, need to vent confusion

[Think About It...]

I have been dating a very nice woman for almost five months now.  

It looks very promising. We have many similar experiences. We are about the same age (late 40's). Both curious. Have travelled a lot. Same high academic degree, and similar type of work with a great degree of personal freedom, but sometimes busy schedule. Both have moved between countries. We seem to share the same basic values etc. We also both agreed on not rushing into things.

We also share similarities with previous relations. I - two 10+ years relations, the last partner had a previous history of abuse that she did not want to bring up with a therapist, which gradually led to a decline of a relation (and many years bottled up frustrations for me). After that I had a half year stormy relation with a pwBPD, that drained me and added to my previous frustrations. I came out of it rather well, but surely got affected.

She - met a pwNPD some 20 years ago. Married, got a daughter. He gradually drained her and reduced her. But she succeeded getting her degree, and later a better job than her husband, at the same employer! They had a big crackdown three years ago. She felt released and got her confidence back (she has minimal contact with him now, and got a new and better job). After that she had a short 6 month relation, but ended it when it did not look promising.

We have some differences. She has had a much longer pwPD experience than I. She´s got a late teenage daughter and this year also have a female teenage exchange student living in her home. She have a weekly schedule that is very much filled up to the brim. I on the other hand work a part time shifts and therefore I am occasionally unavailable during some evenings and weekends. But shift work mix badly with a weekly routine of activities, so I instead plan along a few weeks in advance.  

So what is the challenges?
Meeting!
So far: We met on a dating site. We live in the same small town. It took us 4 weeks to find a time to meet. But in the meantime we exchanged a lot long and very descriptive emails. We then had a once a week dating routine. First on cafes, but soon at my place. It was very intense meetings we can both talk and discuss almost nonstop. After about 5-6 dates we kissed, and a couple of weeks later we had sex (on her initiative). We both enjoyed these evenings a lot. However, it is a bit stressful to cook and serve a good romantic candlelight dinner, have a rich conversation, being more intimate and have a winddown talk in the end, all in 3-4 hours.    

So far we have never been together more than 4 hours at a time, and the last hour she usually look at the clock a few times. She says she need to go home to be there for her daughter and exchange student, and once that she was a bit concerned about walking home alone since there been some recent outdoor rapes in her area. So she always leave at 10 pm (but during this period she has been at a few parties with her female friends that have lasted much longer into the night) . She's has never told me where she lives, only in which area. I have asked her directly at least three times and indirect a couple more, but she always avoid to answer. I have a few times also said that I would be happy to follow her home if that makes her feel safer, but she has declined even if I have insisted.

Between our meetings we send text messages, at least twice a day for almost four months now. We both answer them rather fast, but not obsessively so. I try to add some more bits of information about myself in my messages, and sometimes asks questions about her, but she rarely responds to that. We have not seen each other for almost two months now. Our schedules in december did not match very well, she was extremely busy. Then she had two weeks holiday before christmas, and I after (both planned long in advance), then tragedy struck and her father died after a long illness. So she has been with her family in her home country the last couple of weeks.

My confusion...
Is this a normal start of a relation, in this situation?
She is hardworking, active, with many friends, a teenage daughter and extra exchange student. Is it just hard to squeeze in a male partner in that mix? Does she want to hold it on a "low maintenance level" until the exchange student (in 4 months) and her daughter (in 1 1/2 year?) have moved out? I have sometimes asked her if she wants to travel somewhere together, short like a day trip or weekend or longer on a holiday. She seem to like the idea but have always avoided any more concrete planning, even things like "some weekend this spring".  I have suggested we try to meet in some other settings than our routine, like a cup of coffee after work, or a walk together (we both like walking), she has said it is a good idea but so far nothing have come out of it.

My frustration...
I have a lot of patience! I would be happy to spend years building up a healthy relation from the ground up. However, my last two previous relations, abused partner and pwBPD, have made me cautious. I now want good signs that things really head in the "right direction". I do not any longer trust "things will probably improve, just give it time". I am also a rather intense person with a romantic inclination. I can launch a whole barrage of candlelight dinners, moonlight picnics, surprise flowers and gifts, romantic house cleaning etc, etc. But so far I have restricted myself not to overwhelm (which was just like I had to do in my two previous relations as well).

I do not want to put extra pressure on her, I understand she has a lot of things going on in her life right now. But I kind of want to know that she, like me, feels that this is something to build on. I have asked her some months ago she said she want to live by her own for now, which is just fine with me, I feel the same. But she opened up for moving together when we got "older", which also is good to me. But I certainly want to have a bit bigger role in her life than a "Saturday evening lover", until then. She says I have told her daughter about me, and also some of her friends.  

Any advice?
Should I just be patient and try to make small steps to slowly build a relation fundament and adjust to her pace, at least for a year or so? Or should I tell her how I feel and risk increase her stress, giving her guilt feelings and maybe push her away? From my description, is there anything that seem to be related to her pwPD experience, and how should I best handle it?

[Upnorth]

I have been dating a very nice woman for almost five months now.  

It looks very promising. We have many similar experiences. We are about the same age (late 40's). Both curious. Have travelled a lot. Same high academic degree, and similar type of work with a great degree of personal freedom, but sometimes busy schedule. Both have moved between countries. We seem to share the same basic values etc. We also both agreed on not rushing into things.

We also share similarities with previous relations. I - two 10+ years relations, the last partner had a previous history of abuse that she did not want to bring up with a therapist, which gradually led to a decline of a relation (and many years bottled up frustrations for me). After that I had a half year stormy relation with a pwBPD, that drained me and added to my previous frustrations. I came out of it rather well, but surely got affected.

She - met a pwNPD some 20 years ago. Married, got a daughter. He gradually drained her and reduced her. But she succeeded getting her degree, and later a better job than her husband, at the same employer! They had a big crackdown three years ago. She felt released and got her confidence back (she has minimal contact with him now, and got a new and better job). After that she had a short 6 month relation, but ended it when it did not look promising.

We have some differences. She has had a much longer pwPD experience than I. She´s got a late teenage daughter and this year also have a female teenage exchange student living in her home. She have a weekly schedule that is very much filled up to the brim. I on the other hand work a part time shifts and therefore I am occasionally unavailable during some evenings and weekends. But shift work mix badly with a weekly routine of activities, so I instead plan along a few weeks in advance.  

So what is the challenges?
Meeting!
So far: We met on a dating site. We live in the same small town. It took us 4 weeks to find a time to meet. But in the meantime we exchanged a lot long and very descriptive emails. We then had a once a week dating routine. First on cafes, but soon at my place. It was very intense meetings we can both talk and discuss almost nonstop. After about 5-6 dates we kissed, and a couple of weeks later we had sex (on her initiative). We both enjoyed these evenings a lot. However, it is a bit stressful to cook and serve a good romantic candlelight dinner, have a rich conversation, being more intimate and have a winddown talk in the end, all in 3-4 hours.    

So far we have never been together more than 4 hours at a time, and the last hour she usually look at the clock a few times. She says she need to go home to be there for her daughter and exchange student, and once that she was a bit concerned about walking home alone since there been some recent outdoor rapes in her area. So she always leave at 10 pm (but during this period she has been at a few parties with her female friends that have lasted much longer into the night) . She's has never told me where she lives, only in which area. I have asked her directly at least three times and indirect a couple more, but she always avoid to answer. I have a few times also said that I would be happy to follow her home if that makes her feel safer, but she has declined even if I have insisted.

Between our meetings we send text messages, at least twice a day for almost four months now. We both answer them rather fast, but not obsessively so. I try to add some more bits of information about myself in my messages, and sometimes asks questions about her, but she rarely responds to that. We have not seen each other for almost two months now. Our schedules in december did not match very well, she was extremely busy. Then she had two weeks holiday before christmas, and I after (both planned long in advance), then tragedy struck and her father died after a long illness. So she has been with her family in her home country the last couple of weeks.

My confusion...
Is this a normal start of a relation, in this situation?
She is hardworking, active, with many friends, a teenage daughter and extra exchange student. Is it just hard to squeeze in a male partner in that mix? Does she want to hold it on a "low maintenance level" until the exchange student (in 4 months) and her daughter (in 1 1/2 year?) have moved out? I have sometimes asked her if she wants to travel somewhere together, short like a day trip or weekend or longer on a holiday. She seem to like the idea but have always avoided any more concrete planning, even things like "some weekend this spring".  I have suggested we try to meet in some other settings than our routine, like a cup of coffee after work, or a walk together (we both like walking), she has said it is a good idea but so far nothing have come out of it.

My frustration...
I have a lot of patience! I would be happy to spend years building up a healthy relation from the ground up. However, my last two previous relations, abused partner and pwBPD, have made me cautious. I now want good signs that things really head in the "right direction". I do not any longer trust "things will probably improve, just give it time". I am also a rather intense person with a romantic inclination. I can launch a whole barrage of candlelight dinners, moonlight picnics, surprise flowers and gifts, romantic house cleaning etc, etc. But so far I have restricted myself not to overwhelm (which was just like I had to do in my two previous relations as well).

I do not want to put extra pressure on her, I understand she has a lot of things going on in her life right now. But I kind of want to know that she, like me, feels that this is something to build on. I have asked her some months ago she said she want to live by her own for now, which is just fine with me, I feel the same. But she opened up for moving together when we got "older", which also is good to me. But I certainly want to have a bit bigger role in her life than a "Saturday evening lover", until then. She says I have told her daughter about me, and also some of her friends.  

Any advice?
Should I just be patient and try to make small steps to slowly build a relation fundament and adjust to her pace, at least for a year or so? Or should I tell her how I feel and risk increase her stress, giving her guilt feelings and maybe push her away? From my description, is there anything that seem to be related to her pwPD experience, and how should I best handle it?

[JustSaying]

You sure she's not still actively married?

Someone doesn't tell a lover where they live, that's my first thought.

[Upnorth]

Yes, I checked that out!
Everything she has told me has been correct as far as I can easily check. ( I also know where she lives, even if she has not told me. The telephone book gives a fast answer to that one. I checked that as far soon as she had told her name and that she lived in the same town, to se if she lived close or far away. But since she have avoided to tell me "I do not know").

I think it it is more that she has got some pull/push issues.
On one hand she seem really interested in me, and enjoy my company. On the other hand she seem a bit reluctant to let go, and maybe "loose control".

She also might not want to involve me in some sort of morality struggle with her ex, as it is now she has the "moral high ground", which might be important in the relation to her daughter. He cheated on her (with her best friend!), and is now living together with that woman. Including me in the mix, while the daughter is still living at home, might complicate things? Just my wild guesses!

[suzn]

Married was my first thought too. 5 months is long enough not to be avoiding personal questions. Though you're right two teenagers can keep you very busy. BUT if she's telling you you'll move in together when you're older then she's planning on a future with you, you have a right to ask questions and to have them answered. AND to know where she lives for goodness sakes.

[Upnorth]

Yes, it feels a bit weird.

But remember, we have actually spent very little time together, less than 48 hours, altogether.
But I certainly will press the subject when she returns after her fathers funeral.

Since she had a long pwPD experience. She might also want to be sure "good things" are not "red flags". As I said I can be a bit overwhelming and may trigger "to-good-to-be-true reflexes", and when we have talked about our past experiences it has been a lot of coincidences that that match amazingly well. Like being at concerts on the same tour by little known punk rock band 30 years ago. Visiting many of the same places when traveling, having had same "unusual" interests in our youth (punk rock, airplanes etc). It has gone both ways so it is both of us who had said  "wow, that is just like me!".

Something that might put an additional strain on her is that she does not own a car (neither do I), though both have license. I guess having two teenager without having a car might stretch your planning capabilities rather far.




 



 
 

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[suzn]

Well when you put it like that..only 48 hours doesnt sound very long. Idk maybe just allowing her to be her is a good idea. There must be a reason she doesnt feel comfortable giving you her address. Thats just odd to me, after 5 months? Maybe you should just give her her space to be busy. If it were me Id get back to being busy myself elsewhere. I wouldnt be ok with just a sat lover either.   

[Upnorth]

Thanks for the feedback!

Then I will continue to do as I do now, for some time yet.
I have so far tried to give her space, and not be the one to push things further.

When she has told me about her weekly schedules I have got a bit concerned she was on a fast track to burnout. Getting me and a teenage exchange student into the mix last autumn was probably pushing it a bit, and then came her fathers long illness and death a couple of weeks ago.

My intuition tells me that she is seriously interested in a relation, but also that she is not sure about how to put the different parts of her life together.
I think her relation with her daughter plays an important role, and probably also the daughters relation to the father (who the daughter spends some weekends at). I have understood that there are some power struggle between the two parents but do not know any details. She might want to introduce me to her daughter in a best possible way, but really not sure how yet. Therefore she might want to avoid me showing up at less favorable time? But it is, so far, just guesses.

But, as I said before, I am in no hurry.

[suzn]

So far her boundries are clear. You're spending time trying to figure out why she doesnt want more. Or cant give more..maybe its this maybe its that.. Listen you matter too, what you want in a r/s matters too, this is your life. What do you want? If you're fine with how things are going why the need to vent? Just sayin.. It doesnt seem fair that you cant just have a straight forward honest open conversation after knowing each other 5mos. Thats what would bother me.   

[Upnorth]

As I wrote, the big challenge (and frustration) is to actually meet, and have time for that "honest open discussion".

In those 5 months, we had to wait 1 month before we could see each other for the first time, then we had the "once a week routine" for about two months, and for the last two months we have not been able to see each other. Of those five months we have been physically in the same city maybe 5-6 weeks (both sometimes away during weeks and only at home during weekends, or even weeks at a time). My part time shift work and her busy schedule have so far limit the rest of the opportunities to meet. So the few occasions we have met might be close to the maximum available time so far. Especially since she understandable, so far, have time with her daughter and her exchange student higher on the list than she has me.

48 hours is not a long time to get to know someone in depth. But we did during that time squeeze in some honest open discussions. We agree both on take it slow and not rush into things. She said that her daughter comes first the next two years (when still in school) and that she feels even more responsible for the exchange student. She also told me her previous relation makes her very reluctant to be pushed into something she does not feel prepared for.

I am a bit frustrated that meeting someone living 5 km away would be such a challenge but so far it has. If it is just bad luck and coincidences then I have no problem with it if it turns out to be a longterm pattern then it is another question! I so far count the exchange student and illness and death of her father as unfortunate complicating factors. But from my pwBPD and my marriage before that I know that extraordinary thing have a tendency to sometimes be rather regular occurring.

But I am so far in a position not to be to pessimistic.

[Dire Wolf]

This is an interesting one.

I think that you need to answer the questions yourself.

If your gut says that she is just too busy to sepnd more time with you and you are ok with that, then fine. That is a personal decision on what you are willing to accept in the r/s now.

If you believe that she is being guarded with personal information because of past trauma and not because she is spinning false tales, and you are ok with that, then fine. Again, that is a personal decision on what you are willing to accept in the r/s now.

If you are ok with short visits only (I consider 4 hours at a time short), then fine.

I guess you just need to ask yourself if you are happy with how things are or if you are frustrated. If you are frustrated at all, then you should voice your thoughts. And if she pulls away or you have to break it off, then so be it.

Good luck.
Dire Wolf

[Upnorth]

Thanks a lot everyone!

It was good to discuss it. The last two months without seeing each other, made me imagine red flags.
Now I feel better about it.

When she comes back and we start to see each other again, I will push it to get a slow but steady progress of the r/s.
If she is fine with that then I am very happy.
If not, then I have to ask her why, and what she want to get out of it.

Guess that is the best I can come up with for now...
 

[Upnorth]

Well, 3 months later...

After my last post I brought things up with her. She told me she wanted to avoid letting the exchange student know about me, but that would only last until June. She wanted to present me to her 17-year old daughter, but was unsure how and exactly when since she wanted it to go smooth. She also agreed that it would be a good step that we actually spent a whole night together and we planned that to the first weekend in May. She also told me, that she had nothing against showing me her home, but she wanted to be sure none of the kids were at home the first time. And of course, I had only misunderstood when I had asked if she had any pictures I could see, when I had taken her change of subject as a refusal (she had asked for and gone through hundreds of my old photos). Finally, when I asked if she wanted to spend some time during the holiday together and go somewhere, she seemed very happy and suggested Paris. I booked hotel in February, and she approved it.

Things appeared to be on the right track. But we both had a busy schedule the next months so we did not meet much.

However, this Friday I booked tickets for myself to Paris. We had agreed on traveling there separately since she was visiting her mother just before, and she had also just two week before said that we better book tickets soon. I sent her a message and got a reply that she did not think she could go there with me. She did not feel ready.

Yesterday we met (only the sixth time since November) and talked things through. She said she did not feel ready for a relationship (it was four years since she ended a 20-year mentally abusive r/s with a PwNPD). She said she had tried but she just could not "fall in love" and commit her self to it. She had tried with another man two years ago but it and ended much sooner for the same reasons. She also told me I had everything she wanted from a man, even told me I was handsome  , and she had really wanted it to work out. But now she did not want to hurt me more by dragging it out any longer. She also agreed that she had certainly put up a wall around her self not to get me too close.

Well, real pity, since she also had everything I have looked for in a woman, except one thing, intimacy. I am of course disappointed, but since I was not really "in love" it could have been much worse. For me it is impossible to fall in love if the other do not let me close.  

To me it seems she have the same issues many this forum are dealing with after harsh pwBPD experiences. I guess her mistake was that she right from the start wanted to start a r/s (even though taking it slow). She did not let it start as friendship and gradually evolve.  

Well, we agreed on keep being friends, not feel restricted in dating others and, for the first time, try to visiting some art exhibitions together.

To sum it up it was a r/s with weird statistics.

We met 16 times (12 of them in my apartment, none by her)
Never saw each other longer than 5 hours, so we did spend less than 3 days together, all in all.
However, we exchanged >1500 text messages and >30 long emails.


 

[Want2know]

To me it seems she have the same issues many this forum are dealing with after harsh pwBPD experiences. I guess her mistake was that she right from the start wanted to start a r/s (even though taking it slow). She did not let it start as friendship and gradually evolve.  

That is exactly what I was thinking...I can relate to her holding back.  I am in the same boat now and although I would like to be in a r/s some day, I do not feel ready for it.  Met a great guy, we hung out for about 2 months, but I couldn't commit.  It wasn't balanced.  He wanted more than I was able to give, so we parted as friends.

This seems like an opportunity to build the friendship, which is the best way to go about a r/s, as you mentioned.  Who knows what will develop over time.  She obviously still has some work to do on her own, so giving her that space is good.  It will also give you time to see if she is progressing with her feelings towards you.  The caveat being, do as you said, date others.  Maybe something will come of it with her, and maybe not.  At least you have a building block with her, and you have hopefully learned something along the way, such as what you want and don't want in a r/s. 

[Gowest]

I read the update and then the first post, and was very surprised to find that this was not actually a long-distance relationship. Two months without seeing each other when you live in the same small town? There are really only so many excuses.

Definitely date other people. I would not even recommend a friendship at this point unless you accept it purely as friendship and aren't hoping it will develop into more. This looks like what was my malfunction and I never ever changed my mind once I decided I didn't want to be with someone, though sometimes I gave the impression that it might happen. For attention/ego, and sometimes because I actually wanted to be friends but didn't really understand how to do that.

[Upnorth]

I read the update and then the first post, and was very surprised to find that this was not actually a long-distance relationship. Two months without seeing each other when you live in the same small town? There are really only so many excuses.

Yes, it was weird. Just have to say that 7 weeks out of that period, either of us were out of town. But even then... I have in previous r/s lived periods at long-distance, you actually see each other more then. The few weekends you spend together really counts and you very much are glued together 48 hours straight    

In the past I have got my share of partners with heavy mental luggage. I do not want to go that route once more. As I see it now I have no wish to have a r/s with her as long as she is afraid of letting some one close, and my experience tell me it is very hard to change so I have almost no hope there. However, I have not many good friends, and I was the one who at a start tried to push the r/s in the friendship direction. So I will give that possibility a try.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!

[SunflowerFields]

I was the one who at a start tried to push the r/s in the friendship direction

Are you saying that you initially wanted a friendship, but that desire turned into wanting a r/s, at the same time as she was becoming unavailable?

[SunflowerFields]

I will offer a slightly different viewpoint.

You met up.

She wanted a real relationship.

You did not. Instead, you wanted to have a friendship first and "see what happens".

She wanted a real relationship.

Rather than continuing to date you normally, and be available frequently, *hoping* that at some point you *may* change your mind (because - well - she wanted a relationship), she decided to take a different route.

She may have decided, since you wanted a friendship, she would continue dating others and not be as available. While also dating you.

What happens?

5 months later, you are the one asking, "why won't she give me more time", "what's up with her", "I want to give her more if she is willing to give me more".

Of course - I may be wrong.

But - if this indeed the case - this is one very smart woman. (And I need to learn from her. Don't take offense to this, please - this has been exactly my problem in relationships)

[hithere]

I think the whole thing has a very simple explanation, she was not that into you...

You sound like a great guy so I am sure you will find someone that deserves you, she was cagey from the start and the short and far between dates sounded a bit selfish on her side.  I think she liked you and wanted to have a shoulder to lean on and a little safe-sex but it sounds like she was never very interested.

[Upnorth]

Thanks Sunflower and Hithere!

Always good to take a step back and look from with different perspective!
But I never mentioned anything to her about wanting to start as friends. We were both set on (probably too much) building a new good r/s. But probably differed in how we wanted to start out.

I would say our dating period evolved rather unusual, but is actually my first real date so I can