Why I'm staying - Continued

[Think About It...]

This is my plan:

1. Have my wife stay with the therapist for another 8 weeks. Just to see if things do get any better with her moods, if things don't change I will transition her to a DBT group and Therapist.

2. Keep practicing the lessons here, they have been very helpful.

3. Handle my own issues that cause stress.  Part of this is learning to gently reflect my wife's demands, many times it's difficult to for me to stay organized.  She has exploited my ADD like a Master and I just now see it.  I need to deflect her in a validating way when I need time.

4.  Keep the home in line.  My wife worries to much and is on the kids too much.  I need to be assertive and in control without behaving in a way that makes it seem I'm being provocative.

5. Take care of my needs, then the wife and kids because if I fail the place will crumble.

I've started to post at BPDrecovery.com,  I need to chat a bit with some of the recovered BPD folks over there.  I need a better understanding of what it feels like to be my wife.
 
Hopefully this will make it easier for the wife to work on her BPD issues. Her OCD is keeping her as busy as ever.

Things have been peaceful for 48 hours here.   But I'm ever watchful for land mines and in truth I'm much better at getting out of the way before they go off.

I know many of you are advising me to move faster on the DBT change for my wife.  That is going to take time. If I break with the current T without support for my wife I would see some real backsliding.  I know that. My wife does go to him.  It's not going to be easy to get her to go somewhere else.   In her mind we are there because I'm the problemand that's not going to change for a while.  I need the time for her to begin to understand that her therapy is for her own benefit.  I'm beginning to see that from her but not enough to make the move yet.

Sir5r

Sir5r

[Sir5r]

This is my plan:

1. Have my wife stay with the therapist for another 8 weeks. Just to see if things do get any better with her moods, if things don't change I will transition her to a DBT group and Therapist.

2. Keep practicing the lessons here, they have been very helpful.

3. Handle my own issues that cause stress.  Part of this is learning to gently reflect my wife's demands, many times it's difficult to for me to stay organized.  She has exploited my ADD like a Master and I just now see it.  I need to deflect her in a validating way when I need time.

4.  Keep the home in line.  My wife worries to much and is on the kids too much.  I need to be assertive and in control without behaving in a way that makes it seem I'm being provocative.

5. Take care of my needs, then the wife and kids because if I fail the place will crumble.

I've started to post at BPDrecovery.com,  I need to chat a bit with some of the recovered BPD folks over there.  I need a better understanding of what it feels like to be my wife.
 
Hopefully this will make it easier for the wife to work on her BPD issues. Her OCD is keeping her as busy as ever.

Things have been peaceful for 48 hours here.   But I'm ever watchful for land mines and in truth I'm much better at getting out of the way before they go off.

I know many of you are advising me to move faster on the DBT change for my wife.  That is going to take time. If I break with the current T without support for my wife I would see some real backsliding.  I know that. My wife does go to him.  It's not going to be easy to get her to go somewhere else.   In her mind we are there because I'm the problemand that's not going to change for a while.  I need the time for her to begin to understand that her therapy is for her own benefit.  I'm beginning to see that from her but not enough to make the move yet.

Sir5r

Sir5r

[isilme]

I know many of you are advising me to move faster on the DBT change for my wife.  That is going to take time. If I break with the current T without support for my wife I would see some real backsliding.  I know that. My wife does go to him.  It's not going to be easy to get her to go somewhere else.  In her mind we are there because I'm the problemand that's not going to change for a while. I need the time for her to begin to understand that her therapy is for her own benefit.  I'm beginning to see that from her but not enough to make the move yet.

Hiya Sir5r,

I'm glad the Lessons are helpful, and I hope you are feeling better today. 

Just as a question - you can't switch to a new DBT T for both of you by telling her that you feel since things ahve been so stressed at home latelty that T#1 just isn't helping YOU and so you'd like to try someone new, and that as a couple, it'd help if she went, too, to T#2?  That's pretty much what many, many people on here have ... fudged... to get their pwBPD to the right kind of treatment.

Like many have said, she is not being treated for her BPD, and so hoping for some day for her to wake up and be, "Oh, wait - I AM part of the problem, too!" is unrealistic.  Even is she feels that way for periods, it will probably be very shame/depression inducing for her, and as a likely substance abuser who is not in treatment for that, either, then she will be more likely to self-medicate with a bottle than to realize a new T is in order.

I know you are comfortable with your current T.  I think you have some loyalty issues to him, and as a person in an r/s with a pwBPD, you, like me and many others on here, have trouble saying, wait, I'm not really getting something good out of this, I need to leave and try someone new.  That takes a lot of courage to do.  Living in an abusive household makes it hard to reach out beyond our taboo of DO NOT SPEKAK OF IT.  So I wonder if looking into a new T is fearful for you - you are afraid os talking this over with yet another person, facing the shame of the abuse you have suffered.  You stay with the T who is exacerbating the situation and not helping partly for the same reason you stay with your abusive wife.  It is known, it is comfortable - and what is known is less scary than something new. 

Because frankly, after reading the last several times you have posted, you have relayed some disturbing comments from your T that bother me and a lot of other posters on here.  It looks very much like your T is hinging the success of you marriage, your wife's recovery and your happiness as it ties into those all on you.  ALL ON YOU.  And that's just not cool.  If he said YOUR personal happiness hinges on you, okay, I can get that.  But repeating in differing ways that YOUR failings are why your W lashes out at the whole family = not cool. 

In T without a person who specializes in BPD, I've read it can be very common for the Non spouse to become the one who must do all the changing, both in the mind of the BPD spouse and the joint T.  Which is what you are describing here.

8 weeks, 8 months, 8 years, I am worried that this cycle will just continue unless a BIG change is made ASAP. 

In a way, I feel you are asking permission from your T to leave him, just like you planned on talking over a divorce plan with your wife - neither is a rational course of action.  Unless the T feels YOU are being rude and disruptive to him, he faces little to no upset at keeping you as a patient forever, regardless of the health of your home-life.  Of course he'd not support you leaving, anymore than your W would.   

And, now that she's had her blow up, of course your W is behaving right now.  She's still in the cycle, with all of you on her roller coaster, still.  Nothing has happened to make her get off, or to allow your kids to get off, and you haven't gotten off, either.  There will be another blow up.  It will be like the last.  And it will probably be in 8 weeks or less.   

So,
Step 1 - just prolonging the current bad situation, IMO.

Step 2 - That's always good

Step 3 - Can you give an example?  maybe others on here can help with suggestions?

Step 4 - Keep the home in line?  You mean you think you need to control everyone to keep them from blowing up, including your W?  If she's not being treated properly, she will blow up, no matter what you do.  The best you CAN do is have a "leave for a break with all kids" plan - like other parents on here have mentioned.

Step 5 - Very true.  But I worry that all this is too much for you and you are draining yourself and damaging yourself. 

I think it's not a bad thing to help with empathy to learn more form recovering pwBPD - but empathy on your part can only go so far for harmony in the home.  Your W needs, needs, needs to become a recovering pwBPD herself. 

[Steph]

  I have one question

Why are you afraid for your wife to begin to get well?

[argyle]

My only suggestion would be to replace:
1. Have the wife stay with the therapist for another 8 weeks...
with
1. Immediately start looking for another therapist/DBT group and plan on transitioning within 12 weeks.  (These things take time. F'r instance, your typical DBT group will admit people roughly every 4 months or so...it is like taking a class.) If things get better, whatever, you don't need to make the change.  But, if they don't - you'll be ready.

--Argyle

[iluminati]

I don't want to repeat what I said to you in confidence.  What I will say is pay attention to Steph's question.  Think about it.  You're as much a part of the madness as she is.

[isilme]

What I will say is pay attention to Steph's question.  Think about it.  You're as much a part of the madness as she is

^^ Yes.  It looks a like you're both looking at the other, waiting for him/her to get his/her act together before acting yourselves.  She's supposed to be the less functioning of the two of you, and won't stop the crazy ride, first. 

Her:  It's not MY problem he makes life so hard.  Things will be better when T makes him a better husband and father, and I won't have to get so worked up over the kids and our lives.  The ball is in HIS court.

You:  I'm waiting for her to get better in XX way before I help her get better treatment, address a problem, or decide to leave.  She needs to do XX before I will act to change this dynamic that is hurting all of us.  The ball is in HER court.

[Sir5r]

The peace ended tonight. Just as expected, its been to nice to live here the last few days.
Target of choice was her scapegoat child, son 16 with ADD.   He wasn't going to make it home for dinner so she picked him up.  I was cooking.  He made the mistake of saying he wasn't happy with what we were having for dinner.  So instead of just saying well you can't always get what you want, just have what we made and deal with it.  She told him "What do you think this is a diner!" and it was all downhill from there.  I managed to get then away from each other for a while.  Then we tried to eat dinner, no one would come to the table.  I was to agitated to eat and my wife would not stop.  I told her "the way you're acting makes no one want to be with you."  Instead of leaving I asked her to leave so everyone would eat.  She did leave for 5 minutes and said "No one is chasing ME out of MY house!"  To which I said "Why not? you do it to me all the time."  We ate dinner during that time she told my son she picked up she didn't like the way he was having his dinner (Pasta no sauce, just butter) A travesty isn't it.  No sauce...

My son went for a ride with me after dinner, he asked me why haven't I divorced her.  I find myself making excuses for her, she has problems to work out etc. ...

I will be looking into a DBT group ASAP. I'm not sure about when we can get in but I will find out.

I'm too tired and shouldering too much of this.  My daughter tried to reason with her tonight, the wife would not let her get a word in.  She just yelled over her.

Sir5r

[Steph]

>>I will be looking into a DBT group ASAP. I'm not sure about when we can get in but I will find out.  <<

  Good

[Auspicious]

I told her "the way you're acting makes no one want to be with you."  

Not good. And this part is under your control.

To which I said "Why not? you do it to me all the time."  

Not good. Under your control.

I will be looking into a DBT group ASAP. I'm not sure about when we can get in but I will find out.

Good!  

[Sir5r]

This morning her mood was the same. She started in on me, I think because I had an appointment and didn't have to leave until after her. She was. Erbally abusive to the point where I lost control again and was verbally abusive back.
To which she started with "c'mon hit me! Why don't you just spit on me! (my son did this to her two days ago) c'mon I know you want to hit me!"

I just let her go. It was like a flashback scene I remember Tony Soprano had a out his mom.

I told the therapIst last night the handwriting is on the wall if she doesn't start to respond to treatment I have to divorce her. I can't live with this much longer.


Sir5r

[Auspicious]

Actually divorcing from her may or may not be a good choice. Only you can decide that.

Fantasizing and talking about divorcing her seems to be just part of your dysfunctional cycle.


I will observe that I doubt that you really know who either of you are yet. Without proper treatment, you are taking personally the manifestations of untreated mental illness.

[argyle]

How we found a DBT group...

Internet
Calling random therapists
More internet
Calling more random therapists
More internet
Calling hospitals
More internet

Things I'd rather we'd done differently:

Quizzed DBT lady about the group structure...you want a focused, structured group - basically a class on skills - not, eg, a woman who covers the same page for 8 weeks and teaches skills on an as-needed basis. (looking for another group now...mind you...her current group is useful, it could just be better)

Waited for the focused, structured group recommended by her individual therapist to admit people instead of finding someone else.

Trick is that reviews of DBT groups are tricky, since BPDs are not reliable reviewers.

--Argyle

[isilme]

Sir5r,

I have never used this, but it is probably at least a place to start - http://www.helppro.com/

I'm not sure (and am not asking) where you live, and I know resources will very state to state and city to city. 

As for being verbally abusive back to her, I think the best thing you can do is simply try not to talk to her ATM when she is having a go at you.  Really.  And get the kids ready to get in the car with you for a drive to McDonald's if a cooked sit down dinner is just going to give everyone indigestion, anyway.  In fact, this would be a good time to tell the kids, over a kids+you dinner, that you are looking into a new type of treatment for her, that you know she is sick, and you are trying to make home a better place. 

Her goading you to hit her struck a chord with me - my mother used to do that to my father... and with both of them having BPD, he'd too often oblige her once she found that magic trigger, adding to her sense of being a victim, and to his sense of shame, with both of them making me sick to have to watch and intervene.

You do not need to be in the room/house with her trying to push your buttons - she may not be in full control, but she DOES know she's trying to make sure you are as upset as she is, and she will push you and poke you until she gets a reaction... so the MINUTE it starts, stop what you are doing, and get out.  You're tired, you're frustrated and emotionally raw - your defenses are low.

You can't be sure HOW you will react day to day, hour to hour, and whether you can hold back from reacting... so take your break, and if you can, take the kids with you.  Come back later, let the kids go to their rooms, and you go to yours.  Do you have a safe room?  I can't remember. 

[Sir5r]

Actually divorcing from her may or may not be a good choice. Only you can decide that.

Fantasizing and talking about divorcing her seems to be just part of your dysfunctional cycle.

I believe it is, the choice is clear though. Either she gets into the right treatment or I haveto leave her for my own well being.  I plan on seeing the T today or tomorrow.  I will be asking specific questions about if he has suggested any was for her to control her emotions other than leaving the house.

I will observe that I doubt that you really know who either of you are yet. Without proper treatment, you are taking personally the manifestations of untreated mental illness.
Your correct here, I know my reaction to her is wrong when I'm wrong, yet I still fall for her engagements.   Yes, I'm sure she doesn't know who she is.  I do though, I am aware of what I was before she got to me and I'm rebuilding that slowly. OTH, I don't believe she has ever been comfortable being herself with anyone.

Sir5r

[Sir5r]

How we found a DBT group...

Internet
Calling random therapists
More internet
Calling more random therapists
More internet
Calling hospitals
More internet

Things I'd rather we'd done differently:

Quizzed DBT lady about the group structure...you want a focused, structured group - basically a class on skills - not, eg, a woman who covers the same page for 8 weeks and teaches skills on an as-needed basis. (looking for another group now...mind you...her current group is useful, it could just be better)

Waited for the focused, structured group recommended by her individual therapist to admit people instead of finding someone else.

Trick is that reviews of DBT groups are tricky, since BPDs are not reliable reviewers.

--Argyle

Another poster has referred me a DBT practice that is reputable and is within walking distance from our home.  There is a Schema Group a short drive as well.   Does anyone have any experience with Schema?  Is it worth investigating?

Sir5r

[Sir5r]

Sir5r,

I have never used this, but it is probably at least a place to start - http://www.helppro.com/

I'm not sure (and am not asking) where you live, and I know resources will very state to state and city to city. 

As for being verbally abusive back to her, I think the best thing you can do is simply try not to talk to her ATM when she is having a go at you.  Really.  And get the kids ready to get in the car with you for a drive to McDonald's if a cooked sit down dinner is just going to give everyone indigestion, anyway.  In fact, this would be a good time to tell the kids, over a kids+you dinner, that you are looking into a new type of treatment for her, that you know she is sick, and you are trying to make home a better place. 

Her goading you to hit her struck a chord with me - my mother used to do that to my father... and with both of them having BPD, he'd too often oblige her once she found that magic trigger, adding to her sense of being a victim, and to his sense of shame, with both of them making me sick to have to watch and intervene.

You do not need to be in the room/house with her trying to push your buttons - she may not be in full control, but she DOES know she's trying to make sure you are as upset as she is, and she will push you and poke you until she gets a reaction... so the MINUTE it starts, stop what you are doing, and get out.  You're tired, you're frustrated and emotionally raw - your defenses are low.

You can't be sure HOW you will react day to day, hour to hour, and whether you can hold back from reacting... so take your break, and if you can, take the kids with you.  Come back later, let the kids go to their rooms, and you go to yours.  Do you have a safe room?  I can't remember. 

When she asked me to hit her I was disgusted, it was one of the few times the depth of her disordered mind has come beaming through as clearly as the sun. 

No one wants to be around her when she is like this.   Every one of my kids has asked me to divorce her. Every one of my kids has said they would not want to stay with her.  She still doesn't see it,  I think there are some BPD traits she has that makes her feel "Holier than thou" and makes her believe she is superwoman or something.  Because no matter how many times she hears it it never gets through.

Sir5r

[argyle]

No experience with Schema.

I heard it was more effective with high functioning BPDs.  Mind you, I'd put reputable and experienced as a higher priority.  There's no harm in talking to both groups though.

--Argyle

[iluminati]

Also, with regard to the divorce thing.  Don't say it until you're ready to do it.  What I mean by that is calling a lawyer, getting a consultation, understanding your rights, having a plan with what to do with the children, the house, property, money and whatnot and the wherewithal to see the divorce through.  It'll slow you down, if nothing else. 

Divorce is best used like nuclear weapons: rarely and with an understanding of the possibility of mutually assured destruction.

[argyle]

I like that.
Also, another way to approach things is to set a date to make a decision on divorce. (3-6 months in the future).  Constantly threatening divorce isn't productive.
F'r instance:
Y'know, if we can't change this cycle of physical violence...this R/S will not last.

is more effective than:
B*h, you slapped me, I'm out of here!  (And coming back)

because:
(a) repeated threats are ineffective
(b) threats of divorce create drama
(c) you are unlikely to actually divorce over a single incident - the response is just disproportionate

OTOH,
(a) stating your boundaries and future plans gives her a chance to work at modifying her behavior over a reasonable time frame.
(b) the interim is low drama - devoted to problem-solving.
(c) divorcing over an inability to change repeated, nasty behavior over the course of a decent period is very reasonable grounds for divorce

Now, even if you're working at the marriage and not leaving for 6 months, it may be wise to do preparatory work in advance.

--Argyle

[Sir5r]

Also, with regard to the divorce thing.  Don't say it until you're ready to do it.  What I mean by that is calling a lawyer, getting a consultation, understanding your rights, having a plan with what to do with the children, the house, property, money and whatnot and the wherewithal to see the divorce through.  It'll slow you down, if nothing else. 

Divorce is best used like nuclear weapons: rarely and with an understanding of the possibility of mutually assured destruction.

I like your idea Argyle. Time to work it out with and ending if it doesn't

I've already done the research on this, consulted with a lawyer, Etc.   We own nothing but a house anyway. We have separate pensions. My car is completely in my name. The other is in hers.  The children want to live with me and at their ages they can choose.   The wife would end up paying me child support, I would get custody, the house would be sold in 2 years when only one child would be left.  I would then move into a smaller setting. 

Have I thought it out enough?   I know exactly what will happen if I divorce. I have pictures of injuries to myself and the children, Audio Files of her rages, Video of her kicking the door in to my safe room.  My eldest will no longer be a minor in two weeks.  If the police are called whatever he says can be used in court and it will carry more weight with the police.  The teens said to her last night if the police ever get called they will all ask that she be taken away and one call to the psychologist will have her in psychiatric observation.

I have thought out a lot of this.  It's all a matter of execution.  I don't want to start something that would hurt my wife as I do believe she is mentally ill but there are going to be situations where I may not be given a choice due to her behaviors.

Sir5r

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