Using empathy and mutual understandings - rather than boundary enforcement

[argyle]

I dunno.  Auspicious makes sense - in that many of us simply wouldn't have issues if the problems in our married lives were amenable to compromise.  That said, I do suspect that there's a real subset of problems where added attention to mindfulness and negotiation are important.

@Auspicious (a bit off topic)

Y'know, for healthy people, I suspect boundaries are much like you describe.  

'X is not okay with me.'

And limits are an afterthought:

'So, I'll leave the room.'

For at least 1 person on the staying board (and probably a lot more)... .boundary maintenance in intimate relationships does not come naturally at all. The issue might be thought of as inexperience for simplicity.

So, f'r example,

'I'm not okay with BPDw punching me.'

would have been typically followed by... .

'WTH. please don't punch me.' And a stare rather like a deer in the headlights.

After some thought,

'And, if you attack me, I'm calling the police.'

proved fairly effective.

In addition, I personally lack many of the core boundaries that are, in my judgement, necessary in a R/S.  Like, f'r instance, regarding the physical abuse, I was more worried about the long-term effects on toddler than anything else.  That isn't particularly rational.  Particularly when living with a partner who uses knives.

So, for me, the process of deciding that my responses or lack thereof to some behavior aren't acceptable, deciding on a new response, articulating my plan to change my response to BPDw, incorporating, or not, her feedback, and implementing - corresponds to setting a new boundary.  Writing things down, as some may have gathered, helps me a lot.  As does practicing one change at a time. Honestly, 3-4 are strictly optional - but reduce the amount of confusion in the R/S.

@need OTOH, there are some issues where - even though boundaries might make sense in a sane R/S, I'm probably going to stick to understandings - along with a certain amount of record-keeping to keep us close to reality.

Eg., I've been working full-time, taking care of a toddler, doing the chores.  BPDw has been watching 40 hrs of TV weekly and whining a lot.  We've agreed on chore division.  And we've agreed on a star system to reward effort.  Mind you, there's still a limit.  I'm not going to alter the agreement regarding rewards for work performed.  (Largely a matter of who gets to choose a movie.)

--Argyle

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Pema]

I sent the initial post on this thread to my husband as encouragement.

He ordered the book and it arrived today.

I'm so upset with him and I have been for a week. I do all I can to avoid him and he keeps pulling my chain to draw me back in to the drama.

Such as parking his truck behind me so I can't get out.

I can't cope with him right now and if I had a place to go I'd run out the door like my hair was on fire.

I've made an appointment with my doc to get a full physical. I've been so stressed. I think I may need to be on an antidepressant to get me through this.

I've talked to a few counselors that didn't pan out for one reason or other such as insurance or area of expertise. I found another one I'll start with tomorrow.

I don't have boundaries right now. I'm to scared and stressed. I just have walls and if he breeches them I come undone.

He ordered the book but it will probably just give him more ideas for faking it.

I'm at the end of my rope.

[needbpdhelp]

I sent the initial post on this thread to my husband as encouragement.

He ordered the book and it arrived today.

I don't have boundaries right now. I'm to scared and stressed. I just have walls and if he breeches them I come undone.

He ordered the book but it will probably just give him more ideas for faking it.

I'm at the end of my rope.

So sorry for your distress Pema. The good news is that reading that book could change you and improve your life regardless of it's affect on your H - also, if you change for the better he is more likely to take the book's advice seriously. Good luck!

Also I read your prayer request and I'm hoping your prayers will be answered - read that book!

needBPDhelp

[needbpdhelp]

I totally endorse MINDFULLNESS in improving the relationship with a BPD. My T brought it about on me to help me cope with anxiety and stress related to my relationship. I shared what I learned with my BPDgf and it seemed to have really opened up her mind and gave her hope to change. What made the trick is that mindfulness stresses the fact that YOU are not your feeling and your thoughts but that you can control them trough ACCEPTANCE. That seemed to heal her constant sense of guilt for her actions and helped her rationalize her dysregulation simply as a building up of powerful emotions which ARE NOT her. It created empathy for her own self, acceptance and hope that there is a way to LEARN how to stop being destructive.

We used a book called mindfulness for dummies and contains very simple but effective concepts. We also begun to work 'as a team' to be better persons and avoid the dramas. It doenst solve problems as magic but it does creates a shift in awareness that allows fertile ground for real improvements.

Congratulations in your progress with mindfulness Lencha. I have read all your posts and really admire your dedication and insight into your  your own need for change in order to be a positive influence on a difficult r/s. I'm over twice your age and after 20 years of similar confusion and internal conflict with my wife, we have finally come to a better place largely because I discovered the High Conflict Couple book which teaches the Principles of DBT and the techniques to understand emotional triggers and how to learn how to control them using mindfulness changes in your own perspectives, as well as many lessons about how to strengthen your r/s bond. Don't be afraid of the Hollywood version of BPD, as it is very extreme, and probably not at all what your gf is like.

I would recommend that anyone interested improving their difficult r/s in a short time should read all of your posts, as I did - the story of a young dedicated man very much in love, coming to grips with the fact that he needed to change himself before he could cope with, or be a good match for an even younger, troubled but wonderful woman.

needBPDhelp

[Lencha]

hey needBPDhelp, thanks for the appreciation! yeah i've been totally swallowed by this relationship and had to learn how to swim in it. it came to a point now in which i'm taking a break at work and going to pick her up over there, which will entail marriage. i just can't cope with the distance and the constant worry, i decided is probably better to have the real thing with me in my life and keep the learning process going. it feels really liberating to accept in front of society that my love is half my age, half my education, another color and culture and got some troubles. a lot of the stress comes from what peoplemight think of me and how to protect my professional persona. but you know what? we only have one life and my persona is not me! what is significant for me since one year and a half is my love and me. it will be no tarmac road i know... .my hope is that she will learn and will not turn in to a holliwood BPD during her adaptation to europe (that will b some stress for her). my strenght is the firm belief that i will follow up with my healthy life beside her. we will both have our independence and focus on our individual life (my career so so so neglected!). she understands that and i have no doubt she will try to respect my work/gym routine! i'll maintain myself dedicated to protecting her wellbeing and self-development, it will be more practical when she will be with me everyday and i wont have to think/worry so much. in short, im ready to risk ruining my life bcause taking that risk is the only thing that could repristinate my integrity, although you would need to know much more of me to fully understand that it actually makes sense. so... .i'm leaving tonight, wish me luck!

[Triptoes]

I just recently started this book and can already say it has made a difference!

Previously I had tried enforcing my boundaries and many times they only seemed to make my husband angry: ":)on't walk out on me when I'm talking to you!" he would yell, when I calmly expressed that I would leave the room for 10 minutes and hope to speak about matter X calmly when I came back.

I was scared, frustrated and angry myself. We always started out talking calmly, but somehow most all conflict situations ended up in flames.

Then I got this book. And I saw that as much as my pwBPD was emotionally sensitive and quick to attack when he got hurt _

[yeeter]

Sure, she might. But we can't control how someone else receives something. If I really do empathize with her feelings (and that is key) and she chooses to reject that empathy unless I also comply with her demands, then there's nothing I can do about that. I've offered sincere empathy, and she's rejected it.

That too, is in fact about boundaries - the boundary between her as a person and me as a person. She is her, and I am me. I can't control what she thinks or does. We aren't one fused creature. I can control what I do, which is to offer sincere empathy. i can't control how she receives it.

Obviously collaboration is preferred, when possible     And like all married people, I collaborate many times per day.  But we wouldn't be here discussing this if normal collaboration was routinely successful in relationships with pwBPD. Or maybe a better way to put it is that there are serious challenges with collaborating with a pwBPD, and there will be many occasions when it is not possible.

I do agree with you that collaboration is preferred and important

This is where I get to as well.  Maybe it's the high NPD component.  With it, come the belief that she is most always ' right '. And coupled with binary black/white thinking, there really is no way to find mutual understanding

The concept of compromise just doesnt apply because compromise means she didn't get what she wanted ( no middle ground). And its worse than this, because even a difference in how we view the world  ( or value ) is seen as threat to her.  So there is no place for mutual understanding, its either adoption of her views, or invalidation ( meaning anything less than full agreement to how she sees the world is invalidating )

I can learn that this is how she sees the world.  I can empathize that it must be a difficult way to live, essentially going through life with pretty much everyone constantly invalidating her reality.  But what I cant seem to find, is a way to express my own position where it would not threaten her or invalidate her feelings.

We are learning to reduce conflict by detaching and living somewhat separately.  But there isn't a space to come back to something and discuss or find middle ground or mutual understanding ( she really just doesn't understand me.  Nor can she - thats just part of it - since it would mean letting go of some of who she is as a person (NPD))

[needbpdhelp]

I can learn that this is how she sees the world.  I can empathize that it must be a difficult way to live, essentially going through life with pretty much everyone constantly invalidating her reality.  But what I cant seem to find, is a way to express my own position where it would not threaten her or invalidate her feelings.

To me saying - "I can empathize that it must be a difficult way to live, essentially going through life with pretty much everyone constantly invalidating her reality." - is more like sympathy, or even pity. In her mind - and in mine as well by the way - this would show her that most everyone, including you, feel that her reality is not normal, and cause her to feel resentful I would think.

The good news is that this is a very common mistake to make. Empathy, if not used properly, and with great care can backfire on you big time - it certainly has on me many times in the past.

True mindful thinking type empathy involves crawling into someones mind and really understanding their reality, where it came from, and what or who caused it to depart from a more or less typical objective reality. Then you can validate her trials and tribulations that caused the skewed thinking. This should help her feel more understood and that you truly care.

Continued validation of past abuses and traumas she has endured can help her face experiences she has blocked out and help heal her confused mind.

Don't expect her to learn what your reality is until she learns what hers is.

I just recently started this book and can already say it has made a difference!

Previously I had tried enforcing my boundaries and many times they only seemed to make my husband angry: ":)on't walk out on me when I'm talking to you!" he would yell, when I calmly expressed that I would leave the room for 10 minutes and hope to speak about matter X calmly when I came back.

I was scared, frustrated and angry myself. We always started out talking calmly, but somehow most all conflict situations ended up in flames.

Then I got this book. And I saw that as much as my pwBPD was emotionally sensitive and quick to attack when he got hurt _

[Lilyroze]

Yes, empathy and compassion is the key to any relationship truly. Let alone with those that have BPD. Working with empathy and compassion, you can then use the tools to set the tone for your relationship.

Thanks for bump Skip nice post.

 Relationships achieve growth and balance when both partners are intent on developing empathy and compassion for themselves and for each other. Without empathy and compassion, there is no true intent to learn, because it is only the loving person that is capable of maintaining empathy and compassion for both oneself and others. They are healthy guidelines and values.

 “Drinking a cup of tea, I stop the war.”  Mindfulness be present, be calm, be in peace, then proceed. Truly will make a world of difference for you.

 Outer wars and conflicts come from and mirror the inner conflicts in each of our hearts and minds. A first step toward peace is learning to recognize the outbreak of internal conflict and war in our own minds or thoughts, anger and assumptions when are partners have a situation. This is a very powerful and profound art. During times of strife our lives depend most of all on learning to carefully observe the creative activity of our own mind as it weaves impressions and stories into beliefs that shape our attitudes and values, set our priorities, drive our communications and actions in the world.

Mindful thinking caused this awakening, but only after a lot of study, practice and persistence. The concept is easy to understand - putting it into practice is extremely difficult. You have to suspend all your beliefs and judgements in order to realize your own need for personal change, and that is very hard to do. Our lifelong beliefs represent who we are - and proud of it - so ripping some of them to shreds is probably the hardest thing you will ever have to do.

Very good skills to learn, it will make a world of difference in you relationships , family and business.

When both partners tend to shut down their compassion in conflict, then their conflicts rarely reach satisfying resolution. It is really 10% the problem and 90% how it is communicated. ( according to stats)  

Difficulties also come up in relationships when one person maintains more empathy and compassion than the other, especially during conflict. If one person is able to maintain his or her compassion for the partner even when angry or upset, but the other person shuts down his or her empathy and compassion when angry, this creates an imbalance in the relationship. The more compassionate person may end up feeling abused by the interaction, and may also be the one who usually opens and takes responsibility for patching things up. Really hearing what the other is saying, not assuming and trying to validate helps so much.

The important key is to not give up your self compassion, self respect and self love while doing. Those people who have maintained a deep level of compassion and empathy for others need to respect themselves enough to bring that empathy and compassion inside to their own heart.

Caring and compassion works but must be a two way or respectable street most of the time. When one has to do much more much of the relationship that can be OK, but most be respected, or can be draining or worse abusive. Each person matters in the relationship, each owns responsibility and is in charge of their own happiness. We can add to each others growth, love, happiness but can't be the source.



 This is great https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

I believe BPDs who are chemically dependent, violent, chronically unfaithful, pathological liars, criminals, etc., have other co-existing problems that need to be addressed separately, with boundaries, and maybe divorce, and on a different board than L-4

This is very important as well. If the above then too much compassion becomes unbalanced, not healthy and not good for your well being or the partnership. Each has to bring to the table. And if extreme problems like answer above you will need different tools, boundaries and well maybe even LC or NC.