What about school

[Think About It...]

Heronbird:  Please clarify what is NPD?  Just trying to learn the lingo here and educate myself.  One thing we are finding in the mental health community is that if we as parents are not educated and willing to step out on a limb for our children they often get pushed aside.  We have had to fight for and sometimes be a bit demanding about services for our daughter. 

As for the comment that these are just "normal" teenage behaviors...hahahahaha  We also have an 18 yr old adoptive son.  He is the bio brother of our daughter.  He live through more of the trauma of the bio famlies home just because he was older.  We did have some issues when he was younger but NOTHING like we are dealing with now with our daughter. 

One day at a time...one drama at a time. 

[muffetbuffet]

Heronbird:  Please clarify what is NPD?  Just trying to learn the lingo here and educate myself.  One thing we are finding in the mental health community is that if we as parents are not educated and willing to step out on a limb for our children they often get pushed aside.  We have had to fight for and sometimes be a bit demanding about services for our daughter. 

As for the comment that these are just "normal" teenage behaviors...hahahahaha  We also have an 18 yr old adoptive son.  He is the bio brother of our daughter.  He live through more of the trauma of the bio famlies home just because he was older.  We did have some issues when he was younger but NOTHING like we are dealing with now with our daughter. 

One day at a time...one drama at a time. 

[Kidnapped]

I've wondered about the adoption thing, too. Only because it keeps coming up around here.  But then...how would we ever know if adoption itself imposed issues, or if the reason that child was placed for adoption was due to the same or similar disorder in the birth parents? 

I know they talk about finding a prevalence of the disorder in family histories.  I know the NPD thing was/is just raging away in my own DD's father's family.  And none of them was adopted, so their story is pretty clear. But not the straight up BPD stuff I see in DD.  I can't honestly say why, even knowing the history so well.  I know my own gf left home at 12 because his mother had died and he was unhappy (his own words).  My father did it at 14, also lost his mother and unhappy (also his own words).  I wanted to, but didn't go for it. Both parents present. (Teen angst, untreated medical issues, some dysfunction going on around me.) DD did it at 14 as well, both parents living (no room for all her own words).   I can't make much of that.  It's a definite pattern...but there's no way to draw any absolute correlation.    Like, if I splatter paint on the floor, it'll make some patterns, too.  But they don't mean anything except that paint splatters.

[Battle Weary]

DD's problems first showed up as school problems--grades dropping, hiding report cards etc., starting in seventh grade.  In retropect, I probably went wrong by treating it as just a school problem and all the emphasis I put in trying to address that.  Initially, it was successful, but things fell apart in eighth grade, which, owing to various medical problems I simply chalked up to bad health, and then again in ninth grade when things fell apart again.  I treated the other things going on as normal teen behavior, but these got quite extreme when she was in the second half of her sophomore year.  Still, I set as my goal getting her graduated and into college.  The T she had had the same focus.  One feels quite desperate thinking they may fail everything and not graduate.  But this caused us to miss the much bigger picture, which went way beyond school and some genuine medical issues, and perversely caused her to communicate her distress by doing even worse in school and ever more frequent truancy. (Even if she stayed in the school building she was skipping classes.)  She did not graduate last June and, sadly, only now that I know about BPD do I understand why.

Her school was not helpful--they randomly switched her academic counsellors and even when I communicated my extreme concerns about her mental health problems they refused to put her back with her first counsellor with whom at least she had a connection.  Her last counsellor, a tough love type, seemed to take her noncompliance personally and actually proactively went to her more clueless teachers to tell them they could flunk her on absences alone even if she had done enough work to pass. Some of the individual teachers who were open to parental communication were more understanding. Well into her senior year, I finally went to a vice-principal who did her class scheduling himself but obviously had no time to spend with her.

In retrospect, I am not sure what would have helped short of sending her to a residential treatment center. She had wanted to go to a boarding school when she was younger (DH wasn't open to at the time), but by her sophomore year no longer wanted to go--probably because by this time she had discovered pot. I spoke to her several times about homeschooling--though I work full time, I would have been more than willing to do this, but strangely, she loved school for all the socializing she did there.  None of those "friends" are around for her now though. 

Clearly she was in trouble.  I have fantasized since about a school identification program for kids at risk of BPD and having a DBT program for those identified.  Of course, it probably wouldn't work--what kids would want their peers to know they are in the identified group?  On some days I have half a mind to see the principal of her HS and tell him about how spectacularly the school failed her and most likely other kids with mental health problems and challenge him to come up with ways to address this problem.

[heronbird]

muffetbuffet, sorry, I can never spell it, its narcissistic Personality disorder.
Gosh thats such a horrible one to have in your friend I can tell you. Shes so selfish, everything is about her and shes often bosting about what she has done and how many thousand of lengths she just swam.
When I found out about my dd having BPD and nearly lost her, my NPD friend did care a bit, but kept returning the conversation over to her and her new bf. She didnt even want to know me when I set her up with bf, she stopped coming out with me and I was invisible after Ive helped her so much for the last 22 years. Well, she does not have any friends, only me. I have loads as I am very different to her.
I also think my hubby has NPD  but its bit different because we love eachother so I put up with it just shout at him now and again. My fault, I must be attracted to NPD type of people haha. Im not though, it can be quite hurtful. Hubby not adopted either but worse, his mum left him and his three siblings when he was just 8, they stayed with the dad and it wasnt very good, he kept running away, so sad.
Anyway, sorry Ive completly changed the subject now

[Kidnapped]

Gets even worse, when the BPD kid has an NPD parent.  (And grandparent, in DD's case - both practicing alkies as well.)  I gather there is some connection there though I don't fully understand how that works.  But sadder yet when the BPD kid recognizes it and can call it by name on their own.  Then you get stuck in a quagmire where the NPd parent does all their usual self-preening and disparaging of your efforts, PLUS you have no help when you're trying to sort out your needs  and boundaries from the kid's problems.  And absolutely useless in a crisis, even a life-threatening crisis for the kid.  Because it is always, always, force-it-if-it-won't-fit about them.  Or else, there's a tantrum on the way.  Not a BPD-quality tantrum of course...but enough to make you want to put them in a closet and wear earplugs for an hour or two.  Sheesh!  (No offense intended - but that's not even a raging adult-sized toddler. That's just a ginormous baby, kicking and screaming.)   

Having been married to one for several years, I have a hard time imaging now why anybody would even be friends with an NPD person, though I know they have some and I once was one of those myself.  I did enjoy mutual interests with that one, once upon a time. I'm just shaking my head now.  It's just all such a one-way street!  What can I say?  I was young? And dumb? Too nice for my own good?  Trying too hard to get along with somebody who simply would not be gotten along with?  Completely mistaken as to the benefits of a two-parent household under some circumstances? I honestly dunno. I guess all I really learned from it was to spot them more quickly and avoid more rigorously now.   Weird - I really LIKE people who are passionately involved in their own interests, whatever they may be.  Just, not so much when that's all they can do, I guess. 

Meh. Live 'n learn.  Hope I learned that one well enough to not need a refresher course any time soon.  Might have influenced my approach with DD, though.  At least, the part about gaining her cooperation and interest by presenting things as if they are actually all about her.  I'm pretty sure that one would work on Baby Daddy just as well, (though I never actually tried it and don't want the opportunity in the least now, ).   

[heronbird]

Kidnapped,

Maybe I befrended my friend with BPD traits and now NPD because God knew I was going to have to be dealing with dd years later so its helped me a bit Id say.
Im quite a laid back sort of person and dont pick people up for things they say that can be hurtful I dont tend to notice that most of the time, but if I do, I say what I think, dont hide my feelings well in that case.

Funny thing is hubby who has NPD traits says to me, why do you stay friends with your friend with NPD. I say same reason I stay married to you, you do same things to me. So funny, he would never get on with my friend, she winds him up, imagine that so funny two NPDs, gosh

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[Kidnapped]

That's funny!  Now that you mention it,  i guess that's why th ex and his mother couldn't get along.  Since everything had to about each of them, and each had to be better than anybody else, they couldn't possibly even acknowledge the other as anything but a kind of  placeholder.  The worst thing I could imagine with thse two would be being alone with the pair.  The only way they could compete would be to pick on me, trying to make themselves look even better.   

The Ex was so self-involved that on the day DD was born, I was just as exhausted as you'd expect,  and hadn't eated in 24 hours.  So I asked for some food.  He whined about how he was 'tired', because I woke him up so early and why didn't I just wait until somebody else had time.

That year, my mother died suddenly at a young age and was found in the morning when my father woke up, he pulled some stuff even I wouldn't have thought he'd do.  At that time, we had separated and I was suddenly much happier until that day.  It was such  a shock.  The coroner arrived, and took my mother's body away just a couple of hours earlier.  The Ex arrived a little later, by which time I had gone to take a bath and try to calm down so I wouldn't upset the children even more.  So the Ex barges into the bathroom and starts whining at me about how he's all lonesome and unhappy being separated and how I shoulld fix it.  Seriously. My mother was barely over 40, and the youngeer kids were still in grade school.  Everyone was crying and too choked up to make the calls to extended family.  There were these young kids, wandering about like house aimlessly like little sunken-eyed zombies. It was next to impossible to even look at them without losing it. And as usual...all about HIM.  Who had criticized her and tra-talked about her when she was nothing but nice to him for years on end. And there he was, completely unaware of the impact of the day's sorry event on everyone around him!  That just blew my mind.  Still does, Now that I think of it.  I mean, who DOES a thing like that? 

And now I know.  Takes an NPD.  Nobody else could pull it off.  Nobody else would even think of it, let alone do it.  Nobody else would think it was perfectly appropriate.  But what can you do, really?  Anyone who operates on a belief system like that  would never want any help with it.  They don't seem to think there's anything wrong.  I couldn't figure any way to deal except avoid that kind of people at all costs.  So I have.  I don't really give it much thought... that was many years ago now.  I just keep that kind of people on Full Chill.   I've got DD to deal with, and that's plenty of drama for me, .   

[heronbird]

I guess you didnt know about NPD in those days did you. Although I say my hubby has symptoms of NPD, he is also a very kind person and trys so hard, I try to look at the good heart that he has. No friends though, all the friends come from me. So then one of our sons is similar to him, so funny to hear them talking often ends up in disagreement, they always have to be right. Its not serious though, although I wish i knew about NPD 20 years ago, I would of made him go to get some advice to help him.
The one thing I wonder about this, if my best friend was BPD at teen years, and now is NPD mostly, still shows a bit of BPD. Could our children end up with NPD? I mean, I have been told dd will never be normal/well ballacned should I say. But if she ended up like my friend, it would be bearable for her.

[Kidnapped]

You know, I did know the term, because I had spent a couple of years as a Psych major.  I wasn't focusing on abnormal pych - hadn't chosen a direction at all yet.  I was young, and I was just interested in how the human animal works.  (And, I was being lazy.  Thought I was gonna skate right past the hard sciences back then.)  At the time, the common parlance was just 'selfish'.  Probably applies well in some ways, but not much of a description, technically-speaking.  I knew the ex's story.  He'd been very ill and left in a hospital alone for a long time at an early age, just at a realy important point in his own development.  Aas long as I was married to him, I was loyal as I felt a spouse should be.  I tool his part in things, despised anyone who did him wrong, and tried to focus on his better characteristics.  I do get that.  It's just...what you do.    Funny - when I was married to him, all bad things were Mommy's fault.  When I divorced him, all bad things became my fault.  Same with wife #2.  Always, always, somebody else's fault for generally being inferior to him, .  Took a while for that pattern to fully develop. And later on, I figured out that because I admire people who are really passionate about their interests, that kind of sets me up to be dealing with people who are just sort of naturally driven...and competitive...and even downright egotistical, even if they aren't full-on narcissists.  No such thing as a freebie relationship, I guess.  They all come at a price, and they all take some work.   I just don't roll with that particular kind of work any more.  I have less patience, a far stronger sense of self, and don't give my loyalties in anywhere as trusting a way than I did then.  I had a lot to learn!  I was young, inexperienced, and came from a family that didn't tolerate any of that kind of behavior.  Parents had been together forever, with a solid marriage.  Like, I was the perfect sitting duck, . These days, I would make for a vey poor prognosis, relationship-wise, .

I kind of suspect that as DD gains better control (she IS trying), that being a narcissist is where she may end up.  NPD? I dunno. Mine's an only child, so never had to learn some of the ordinary day-to-day sharing and pecking order stuff most of us have to learn growing up.  I had wanted to adopt a second child, thinking it would be good for both children.  But eventually, I realized I had my hands more than full with the ex and DD.  Even at that age, DD was probably the most highly demanding, sensitive handful of a child I'd had to deal with - and I worked with lots of kids.  Still is.  So next, you think it's you, somehow.  Of course.  But I really did believe she was not getting the best shot at life by being an only.  My thinking then was just that she needed to HAVE to cooperate with others and have more companionship in order to become more well-rounded.   Possibly, that was correct, in a way.  It IS an ordinary part of developing as a person.  But I doubt it now, if for no other reason than that we do hear from others around here with more children, and what having a BPD sib does to their lives.  We just never know who each child is gonna be, until they show us.  Not like you can just return them at the store if you find out they have some defects, right?

I DO wonder what all is happening in the physiology of NPD people, now that we've been putting together some of the BPD pieces, though it wasn't all that similar in trms of weird responses to pain and such.  I do suspect that problem might be a real definite combo of genetics and environment that lead to a belief system like that.  (And only because it would be exceptionally weird for a kid to turn out ok if they grew up under the conditons the ex experienced.  Many surgeries, drugs, disease, disabilities, extreme family dysfunction...what kid could get through all that without any repercussions?   But maybe, a different one grows up to be a doctor.  Maybe another becomes a T.  Maybe another just has anxiety problems or PTSD.  Or a religious zealot. Or just a general mess. Dunno.