When you ponder recent arguments, can you see where these steps could help you?

What areas (steps) do you feel you need to work on?

What do you think inhibits you from following these steps?

I agree, times 1000.  When it's an old topic, or something I agree with him on, like that he's being dumped on at work, I can easily validate, and figure out he really just wants someone to listen, as I am learning he doesn't trust his own emotions are okay to feel (does that make sense?) but he can't get a handle on them easily. 

But when he starts in attacking ME, which I have to admit has decreased quite a bit (used to be a few times a day, a few times a week to now maybe once a month, and a lot less intense/shorter duration for the most part, hours instead of days) as both I inadvertently validated in the past few years, and now am working hard to purposefully do so, I still have the inclination to JADE, "Hey, stop that, I'm not saying/doing/thinking whatever you want to believe I am!" 

In order to stop, when I catch it in time, and when I'm not feeling poopy and emotional myself (sick, tired, sore, stressed on my own, not regarding him) I try to do #1:

#1) Regulate your own emotions

Pause - take a deep breath and notice your physical sensations. Label them as the emotion you are experiencing. I pause, and tell myself, "This isn't really about me, as it's not something I ahve done, and I need to detach, he is dysregualting, what do can I do to help take it down a notch, or at elast keep it from getting worse?

Pay attention to your body posture - unclench your hands, relax the muscles on your face. Make sure your other muscles are not tensed. Need to work on this - I try not to cross my arms - used to be a defensive stance as a kid

half-smile - send calming messages to your brain. Ca't really do this - he sees any emotion other than a mirror of his own anger as being patronizing, any sort of smile will escalate things (I've smirked inadvertently when I realize how ridiculous the statements or argument is and how silly it is for us to be arguing over who forgot the A1 sauce at the store.  So I tend to revert back to my gradeschool mask of a lack of emotion

validate and cheerlead yourself - you are doing the best that you can right now. Focus on the good Trying.

#2) Validate (do this at every step) This is not so hard unless I'm being accused of something I know dang well I didn't do, think or say.

soothe your loved ones emotions by finding something to acknowledge.

*You are validating that you understand them.
*That you accept they have a right to their feelings. Even if you don't agree with them.
*That it is a reasonable possibility, and that others would feel the same way.
*That you have empathy for them (a true connection with what they are going through).
*That there is a kernel of truth to what they are expressing.
*That they have a legitimate right to feel as they do.

Whenever emotion begins to build, stop and validate again

#3) Ask/assess #4) #5)

specifically, but gently ask "how would you like me to help? Do you want me to listen, give advice, or help you figure out what to do?"

* if the answer is "just listen", then skip step 4 and move to step 5 99% of the time this is the case.

* if the person wants your input, assess exactly what is going on I do this, but it needs to be repeated ("We need to call a plumber.  I will stay home and show him the problem if you will pay the bill.  I will call a plumber and miss work, you can go to work, I will call a plumber today, and need to call my office so I can get off, if you will leave a check, My office lets me call in more often if I do not have a pressing appointment.  I will be the one to call in, you don't need to do anything but get yourself to work, and pay the bill, and so on until he's able to listen, you need to go so I can look up a plumber in the phone book.  (actual conversation)")

What if your loved one doesn't participate?

There is no guarantee that your loved one still won't get upset and want to attack and abuse you. This is where it is important to know your own limits and how to properly take care of yourself.

~ ~ communicating a limit ~~

Trying, trying, trying.  Usually when work or another appointment is able to help me leave, I can take a break and come back and we can talk about it, or if he left, I can fix or repair the problem if it's of that sort.  I am also trying to give him time to sort his emotions out, at what used to seem like the silent treatment to be mean to me has proven to actually, at times, to be him trying earnestly to stop ranting, to stop the anger, and to calm down.  It's all a work in progress.

Question:  Does a BPD person generally disregulate in a blindsiding way?  I find that mine does this when it's least expected... things had either generally been going well... or the cause of the disregulation seems out of the blue.  In either event, it has a way of catching the non off-guard and creates a very unbalanced reaction for the non.  And as a follow up... does the BPD do this purposeful?  As a way of maintaining control by being so unpredictable... or is the unpredictability just part of the disorder.  I often wonder because I KNOW my BPD enjoys the games... so I can't figure if this is a normal part of BPD or just part of the NPD game of keeping control by keeping the other person so off balanced.   

I don't know if it's consciously contrived, or if arguing and passionate feelings are just the norm, and so what we feel are stable, good days, they feel are dull and need that spark of conflict to feel alive?

I get stuck on #4.  What if their only solution is not logical and is aimed at controlling you? You can validate crazy, but you can't argue/negotiate/reason with crazy.

You don't validate "solutions", you validate emotions.

"It would be fun and exciting to start your own business!  I can see why you are excited about that. I can't invest in anything right now, and if I could, it would need to have a solid business plan. Yes, that is disappointing - don't blame you for being disappointed "

I used to think this about my uBPDw, that it was out of the blue.  But I've discovered that if I really pay close attention to things that are likely to trigger her, or am persistent enough to get her to tell me about something that may have happened when I'm not around, that there has always been a trigger of some sort.  Took me ages to learn what they were, though.  Criticism, obviously, has always been a huge one, but many other things that would seem quite minor to most people.  That being said, sometimes being too close to me frightens her into disregulation.  Especially these days when we have so much bad blood between us.




I'm certain my wife isn't doing this on purpose.  Can't speak for others.  I think my wife is trying to control her own emotions by doing this (it seems to be the only way she knows how with some of them), but I am generally not relevant when it gets to that point.  I have always felt like an innocent bystander in the sense that she is so desperate to keep herself balanced that she knocks me off balance because I'm the person that is around for her to collide against.  If that makes any sense.

Regards.

#1) Regulate your own emotions - Usually pretty good starting out...not so good after 1/2 hr plus - tend to get sucked in when I pay attention to what's been said.

#2) Validate (do this at every step)

Should do this more - but - 90% - BPDw will stop me and ask for direct factual agreement/opinion about x...hates sidestepping - currently experimenting with giving what she's requesting and just accepting that she'll disregulate sometimes.

#3) Ask/assess
specifically, but gently ask "how would you like me to help? Do you want me to listen, give advice, or help you figure out what to do?"
* if the answer is "just listen", then skip step 4 and move to step 5
* if the person wants your input, assess exactly what is going on
-This is useful. Probably about 1/3rd of the time.

#4) brainstorm/troubleshoot

If your loved one wants your help...
Generate a list of solutions with the help of your loved one.
Collaborate with your loved one to select an option.
Anticipate what could get in the way of your loved one's actually carrying out the plan.
-Straightforwards

#5) get information on your role (if any) and what you can plan on hearing about the outcome
-Should do this more
Are there things that you need to do to help/support your loved one in carrying out the plan?
Request a check-in/follow up if it is important to you. Tell your loved one that you are really interested in knowing what happened and ask to be updated. This is very validating for the person who is in the crisis but also doesn't leave you guessing.
-Meh-I have a terrible memory.  Perhaps the calendar function/to do lists on my phone will help.

~ ~ communicating a limit ~~

* let them know that you are going to end the conversation if ______ doesn't happen (they don't lower their voice, let you talk, or if they keep cursing)
Yep,
* give them a chance, even if it's brief to modify their behavior to a way of interacting that works for you.
Yep.
* make sure you "own" that you are ending the conversation because of your reactions and what you want from the interaction.
Yep. - But should express feelings more.
* then follow through on what you say if they continue their behavior.
No problem.
* validate and soothe your loved one's emotions about having a limit established
Eh. Most of my limits involve walking out on abuse.  There's a 'not there anymore' issue - but I should probably try validating as I walk out.  Dunno, tricky validating while being ready to dodge.
* assure your loved one that you will be available at a different time or for
a different issue
Should remember to do this - don't always.  But, eh, conflicts are stressful, realistically, I don't really expect to remember.

Meh.  Still have the same wonderment.
If:
BPDw: 'Don't you agree that X is out to get me?' (Basically a truly crazy statement)

Possibilities:
1:'I can see how you'd feel like that...' 'F*k you. Do you agree?  I need you to agree. Stop talking about f*king feelings and answer the d*d question.'
2.'No. If you look at X's past history and personal motivations, she's one of your more reliable friends.' 'But, I need you to see... Why won't you agree with me here?' 'Y'know, maybe we should agree to disagree.' 'Why don't you agree with me? But don't you agree with me that her sending me a nasty text was messed up?' 'Well, I'd like to take your side, but, you did completely ignore her and cut off all contact for 3 months immediately after she asked you to speak at her wedding.  And, really, given that she had every reason to assume that you'd decided not to come without telling her, her text was fairly friendly.  You're making mountains out of molehills.' 70%: 'Oh. OK.' 30%: 'So, I'm getting jealous. You want to f*k her?'

My question is: Can someone suggest something better than (2)?  Some of the direct answers can be awfully invalidating. (Basically anything where the answer is...'as a result of your past history of violence' or 'because of your behavior' or 'because of your mental illness' or 'because, overall, I'm doing about 90% of the housework and child-care' or 'My guess is that you hold that opinion because of your upbringing in an abusive family environment.  Studies show that that sort of behavior is just terrible for kids.')  

--Argyle

The catalyst for us was after she had multiple hospitalizations, after much chaos, I told her lovingly that I couldn't live that way anymore, and she needed to be in appropriate therapy or we would need to separate (we had already been separated briefly once, after she ran off, but I was presenting it in a planned, if this then that fashion).

That got her to start DBT. We did eventually separate again, but after yet another hospitalization I think she really got serious and worked. We got back together and we still face problems, certainly, but there is much less chaos.

I wish I had had this crisis checklist all along ... I would have had many opportunities to use it, and things may have gone better sooner!

After a particularly unpleasant attack, she was arrested and charged with felony DV.  I bailed her out and told her that that sort of behavior was not good for children - she told me she had BPD - and I told her that - unless she was in therapy and working on meaningful change - I was filing for divorce. She said OK.

There's a big barrier to change with BPD - so usually some portion of the BPD's life needs to be absolutely and unusually awful.

From observation, the most sensible approach is usually 'run and don't look back'.  If, for some reason, the non chooses to stay - the second most sensible approach is usually to (a) learn the tools and generally improve the non's side of the R/S - wait about 6 months, (b) evaluate the R/S for deal-breakers (sometimes the non is more than half the problem), (c) (assuming there are still deal-breakers on the BPD side) - ask for meaningful change, and (d) assuming the BPD fails to provide meaningful change, ask them to enter therapy understanding that a refusal involves divorce.

Mind you, I could be completely wrong.

--Argyle