Valentines day, Ugh

[Think About It...]

Well, Just as I had predicted, Valentines day turned out very bad.  My UBPDW is Mad, In a horrible mood, and she pisses me off with her hatefulness.  I got home from work with a dozen roses in a flower arrangement, and a pair of Gold Heart shaped Stud Rearrings, and a card.  She wants no part of it.  I guess, I will have to take the earrings back and get my hundred fifty dollars back.  She refused to go out for Lobster dinner, her favorite.  Oh, Well, Even though I am mad at her for accusing me of being a horrible dad, who turned my three sons into alcoholics, I was not going to forget Valentines day.  All I know is, what she feels, is her truth.  My sons are very far from being alcoholics.  She is basing this all on the pictures on Face-Book.

Valentines day SUCKS!

Art

[artman.1]

Well, Just as I had predicted, Valentines day turned out very bad.  My UBPDW is Mad, In a horrible mood, and she pisses me off with her hatefulness.  I got home from work with a dozen roses in a flower arrangement, and a pair of Gold Heart shaped Stud Rearrings, and a card.  She wants no part of it.  I guess, I will have to take the earrings back and get my hundred fifty dollars back.  She refused to go out for Lobster dinner, her favorite.  Oh, Well, Even though I am mad at her for accusing me of being a horrible dad, who turned my three sons into alcoholics, I was not going to forget Valentines day.  All I know is, what she feels, is her truth.  My sons are very far from being alcoholics.  She is basing this all on the pictures on Face-Book.

Valentines day SUCKS!

Art

[LoveNotWar]

You can at least take comfort in knowing you did what you thought was right, you took the high road. I know her behavior cut to the quick and I am sorry you feel bad.
Here's an idea...take the earrings back and use the money to treat yourself to something you've been wanting but haven't indulged in. It won't change her behavior but taking care of you counts for something.

[artman.1]

Thank You, LoveNotWar,
     Your Post helpes, and I needed some pick-me-up, just now.  The Hate still goes on, and as usual the never ending Blame Game continues.  Even though, I was asleep, and she woke me up at 3:AM to attack me about how bad a Father I have been to my sons, and turned them all into alcoholics, she now blames me for abusing her.  WOW!  INSANITY!  This INSANITY has gone on for the last 43 years of my Marriage to her.  The only good thing for me, is that I discovered the BPD problem last year, and have been working on me, and my codependent behaviors.  I am seriously working on gaining my own personal life without her being required for my existance.  It is just starting to work, and I am starting to see my life both with, and without her, as whatever happens in the next year.  I do know that I really am in love with a long time ago MEMORY!  There has been no Intimacy allowed between us for the last 35+ years.

Art

[Steph]

 Why does she think your sons are alcoholics?

You seem to see them very differently, for some reason..you have always spoken glowingly about them, yet she is thinking they are alcoholics..That is a pretty different perspective on your kids.

Where is her perception coming from?

[kenkimg]

(This is somewhat related to Steph's comment.  In my experience asking why doesn't seem to be useful in these situations, at least from my experience.)

I have a BPD wife who blames me periodically for daughter's "failures in life".  The things BPD wife comes up with are nonsensical and asinine at times.  The fact that your spouse blames you for turning sons into alcoholics might even have been something she imagined, and nothing you might say or do would change it.  Doesn't seem to help to demand evidence.  I've learned to discount such disparagement with a little laugh or look of dismay, or totally ignore.  What else can one do? Arguing about it is a waste of energy. If you ignore it you may find after awhile she "tires" of this game and backs off.  Has she always been this way?  If not, could be some age related dementia.  Good luck... 

[BentNotBroken]

Art,
I am right there with you. My BPD has some crazy, Hollywood fantasy of what life should be like, especially when it comes to romance. She raged for hours on her birthday because I did not buy her a birthday card after she painted me black, forced me to move out under threat of arrest, and had been raging & getting violent almost daily for two weeks. (there were other things, but you get the picture)

Not wanting to "set her off" again, I baked her a huge, heart-shaped cookie for VD and gave it to her on the 13th because my schedule was full for the 14th and I knew I wouldn't make it by to see my son. Crisis barely averted. You could almost see the rage starting to bubble over by the 15th when I did stop by.

It is not you, you did not make your sons alcoholic even if they are, which I doubt, and you did not "do this to her". I have been accused of causing every misfortune in our lives over the last 15+ years, but the reality of it is that she will never grow up and accept responsibility for her own actions. She will always be sick, because she chooses things that feed her illness over everything else and everyone else.

I can relate to the 3am wakeup fight. She pulled this on me at least a dozen times. Along with the 4am, 5am, and my personal favorite--the all night rage about old things that we have argued about twenty times before, and they are old, old things that aren't even relevant any more or didn't actually happen. In her head, when she "feels something" its as if the event is actually happening in the present. She then proceeds to make my reality match how she feels. She really likes using sleep deprivation as a torture tactic on me. After I had been up with the baby all night, she would rage for hours, and then run the vacuum for hours  just to make sure I could not get any sleep. She would then gaslight me and say I had not been up with the baby, that she was awake the whole night before and knows the baby did not wake up and I was "just surfing the internet all night."

You have my respect for enduring all of your wife's abuse for so long. Enough is enough. Isn't it better to be alone for a while than to keep riding on the crazy-go-round wondering when & where it will stop?

[BentNotBroken]

BTW, Valentine's day is just fine, it is the selfish BPD women in our lives that suck.

[Auspicious]

This isn't a bashing board ...


You did something that you were pretty sure wasn't going to "work", and predictably, it didn't.

What are you getting out of this?  What's the payoff for you?

Possible payoffs:

-You get to feel morally superior

-You get to feel "normal" by comparison

-You get to ignore your own problems and issues by focusing on hers

[Steph]

 The purpose for me asking why she thinks your sons may be alcoholic is two fold...

She may have some insights that you wont see..codependance doesnt let us often see what may be right in front, and one of the common symptoms of alcoholism and codependance IS denial.

and two...it can be a conversation the two of you can have. Did you hear her, or just dismiss it? Granted, she was bludgening you with it, but she may still have some concerns and issues around that very important aspect of your kids lives.  Its a way to listen to her again.

No, you didnt turn them into alcoholics..if they are, it is by their own behavior, but dont throw the baby out with the bath water..ya know?

 Art, I still see it being done on your terms and expecting different results... You are doing the same thing over and over and over, expecting her to suddenly love what it is you are doing.  You gotta stop that spin. She needs to feel heard...and she just isnt feeling heard.

 


Steph

[Steph]

BTW, Valentine's day is just fine, it is the selfish BPD women in our lives that suck.

  THis board is about helping us out of our own bitterness and pain and stopping the cycles we are in, by making the changes we can make in ourselves, assuming you want to stay in the r/s.

Be sure to take a peek at the Lessons to your right, to begin the healing and understanding. This board works!

Steph

[lurchlookalike]

What's up man,

Art if I remember right you are a Vietnam Vet, obviously an older guy, and you also are one hell of a nice guy from everything I've seen. This all adds up to respect, you deserve that. The Advisor's comment above was a bit blunt but he's just trying to help you.

Your Valentine's Day performance was stellar, way over the top for a relationship like yours and your wife just dumped on you. You have to let her go, not necessarily a divorce but you must find your own separate peace in some manner. Divorcing at your stage is like a camel trying to go through the eye of a needle, to use a biblical quote. So hard to do because you have all these decades of entanglements, both financial and emotional, kids, plus all those years of inertia pulling at you. If you were the primary bread winner you will get utterly screwed in a divorce. It is an "equal' division but if you did way more than your share of supporting the family it's about as unequal as it can be. To say it's equal is total BS.

I hope you find your way, there are lots of women out there that would love a guy like you, even younger ones, but telling you that doesn't make it any easier. Just find another way of seeking satisfaction than from your wife, I don't think you'll ever find it there.

Take care brother and God Bless!

[isilme]

Steph - based on Art's prior post, I got the impression that she probably saw some photos on Facebook of them with drinks in hand, and has since jumped onto the idea they are alcoholics.    Since I'm guessing Art's kids are about of my generation, I will have to say the majority of Facebook photo posts are either of pets, children or from social occasions, meaning for adults it's quite likely there's going to be a drink in someone's hand in a set of photos.  This seems to be a new thing, bringing the kids into her criticisms, as before it's pretty much been all about her feelings about Art himself and how hey effect her, with no prior mention of the sons, so my guess is that this is based on a recent observation of some sort.

Also, it may be likely she came from a home where alcohol (and she) was abused, and to her ANY drinking is being alcoholic.  Black and White. 

Art, I applaud your gesture, and am sorry she was not able to appreciate it.  For some reason, holidays never go as easily as they seem for people without BPD in their lives - holidays appear to be extra triggering.

I may venture a crazy guess about her attitude - a lot of people, tongue in cheek, say that men give gifts on Valentines in exchange for sex.  I know this isn't true for every couple, but TV seems to like to push this idea.  I personally see it as a nice day for a couple to exchange gifts in kind - it's not a day for women to reap high end jewelry in exchange for some bedroom gymnastics - for us we BOTH give something, like I like to give pocket watches and cigar paraphernalia to BF - I appreciate man-type gestures, but feel as a woman of Gen X I should try to keep it even. 

Anyway, seeing as your W has got a real problem with the idea of sex, hugs and being close even emotionally, she rejected the gifts to not feel obligated to be close at all and sought comfort in what she knows best, even if it means being unhappy - finding new ways to be mad at you so she can dodge looking at how she feels about her or anything she might stand a chance of improving.  Just my guess.

  . 

[Auspicious]

There are a number of possible reasons she may have reacted as she did (isilme suggests a possible one).

Another possibility (which may not be all that different) that comes to mind is that she simply didn't see your efforts as being consistent with the relationship that you two actually have - or with the way that she sees that relationship, anyway.

Can you ask her, in a calm moment, why she reacted that way?  You never know, you might hear something interesting (and you might not, but what do you have to lose?). If you try it, be truly prepared to hear her.


If you want to boil things down to something really simple, your approach has not been working out well for you. Right?  

In that case, what are some things you could do differently? You know your own situation best, so what are some things you could change?

[Steph]

Steph - based on Art's prior post, I got the impression that she probably saw some photos on Facebook of them with drinks in hand, and has since jumped onto the idea they are alcoholics.    Since I'm guessing Art's kids are about of my generation, I will have to say the majority of Facebook photo posts are either of pets, children or from social occasions, meaning for adults it's quite likely there's going to be a drink in someone's hand in a set of photos.  This seems to be a new thing, bringing the kids into her criticisms, as before it's pretty much been all about her feelings about Art himself and how hey effect her, with no prior mention of the sons, so my guess is that this is based on a recent observation of some sort.

 And my point is...we dont know. We are assuming. We nons do that alot And since this is staying, the idea is to improve things. That means we ask, we seek to understand and we validate. We keep in mind our goals and values for the r/s and take that step back and try to see what is going on.

" You saw John with drinks in his hand and this is worrying you? Help me understand more about this concern you have. I love my boys and if you are worried about something they are doing, then lets talk about it!"

You gotta see thru her smoke and mirrors into what is going on. She was upset about the pics...I dont like seeing pics of my kid drinking on facebook, either..and she IS  an alcoholic..and it sounds like she was upset, which came out in abusive ways, because she has BPD. Since Staying is the goal, it makes sense to not dismiss this stuff, but talk about it. " It seems like you are worried about our sons..lets talk about that" Maybe later, when things are calm, but let her know this stuff is important. She may not be making it up and at the very least, she is worried about her kids. Makes sense to me.

What are the goals here? The values? We need to keep this stuff in mind when dealing with our partners. If we want to stay, we have to be listening and striving to understand, seek to hear them, and validate. I cannot overemphasize the importance of this skill.

Also, with alcoholism being in their own genetic load, its quite possible they could have alcohol issues..or not..but genetically, its there and she knows this, too.

[isilme]

Since Staying is the goal, it makes sense to not dismiss this stuff, but talk about it. " It seems like you are worried about our sons..lets talk about that" Maybe later, when things are calm, but let her know this stuff is important. She may not be making it up and at the very least, she is worried about her kids. Makes sense to me.

True, true. 

[needbpdhelp]

This isn't a bashing board ...

You did something that you were pretty sure wasn't going to "work", and predictably, it didn't.

What are you getting out of this?  What's the payoff for you?

Possible payoffs:

-You get to feel morally superior

-You get to feel "normal" by comparison

-You get to ignore your own problems and issues by focusing on hers

 Art, I still see it being done on your terms and expecting different results... You are doing the same thing over and over and over, expecting her to suddenly love what it is you are doing.  You gotta stop that spin. She needs to feel heard...and she just isnt feeling heard.

Steph

 Hi! Art,

Boy do I agree with Auspicious and Steph!

I haven't spoke to you in a while. We, are both engineers and use our engineering logic to solve problems - but I finally learned after 20 years that my logic didn't work and I couldn't 'fix' my wife's view of reality that was different from mine.

I finally changed my approach, and am now learning what changes in myself are needed in order to enable me to understand my wife's needs, fears and perspectives, so I can be a better husband. Things have turned around for us, and we are now functioning as a team. I have probably recommended it to you before, but in case I didn't please get the book 'High Conflict Couple and really study it. You will be amazed at the good logic that we have missed all these years, and your wife's reaction to it.

A while back you were going to write your wife a letter - with this board's help - asking her what she needs from you in order to love you the way you need. - I think it would help you a lot if you did that.

needBPDhelp

[artman.1]

Why does she think your sons are alcoholics?
You seem to see them very differently, for some reason..you have always spoken glowingly about them, yet she is thinking they are alcoholics..That is a pretty different perspective on your kids.
Where is her perception coming from?

    She saw their pictures on Face Book.  The three brothers used pictures of them with either holding a drink, or in a resturant with a drink on the table, and so forth.  One Daughter in law is always putting up pictures of their resturant dinners etc..My UBPDW saw thw pictures and had the feeling they are Alcoholics, and her feelings are her truth.  They only drink on weekends sometimes, and then usually while Football is ongoing.  They are all Engineers, and hold down great positions, with much responsibilities.  They do not drink as much as I even used to, and I worked at Nuclear plants and had suprise testing, and generally worked an average 70 to 100+ hours per week. During the time I drank the most beer in my life, I worked over 3000 hours Overtime that year and that is above the 2000 hours of regular time, and I did this for many years trying to hold my family together.  It always seemed insuficient in the money department, so I just couldn't refuse the overtime.  I was a journeyman Electrician back then. I am very sure they are not Alcoholics, but she wanted something to hurt me with, and found it.  She remains dysregulated over that and this occurred six days ago, and she still has not opened her V-day presents.  She is a Typical BPD, and when she was telling me I was a horrible father, it really hurt to the core.  I am quite sure none of you would understand.  I have sacrificed all my life for my sons, and you all think she is right in her BPD accusations, and hurtful behavior waking me up in the middle of the night accusing me whan I was not even awake just yet.  I guess none of you have worked all your lives trying to take care of a family while your partner is doing everything she can to hurt you!  
     I need to focus on me, and never get involved with her INSANITY again.  I just wish you people could go through some of, just a little bit, of the hell I have allowed from this crazy woman that I am being told to continue ignoring myself and focus on her rage.  I do NOT FEEL SUPERIOR IN ANY WAY!  I FEEL THAT I AM A FOOL FOR LIVING LIKE I HAVE, AND FOCUSING ON HER FOR 43 YEARS!  Please tell me what I did that I knew wasn't going to work?  This post turns out as very hytpocrytical to me.  You all are thinking that you are superior indeed.  Steph, how did I do something in my sleep that was on my terms when I was woken up at 3:AM to a rage from an INSANE Woman.
     I am always trying to make things better, and failing miserably.  This life just sucks!  I cannot talk to her, ever, and she has a very good habit of taking a thread of truth, and turning it into a total lie.  I can see how much trouble I will have trying to get away from her, if you all jump right in with her even when I posted it.  Well, you all can have her.  I am sure once you get to know her you will change your mind.  She has painted her, and my families all BLACK, and she will paint you black as well.
     You all seem to want me to become more codependent than I already am.  What's up with this?  Again how do you validate when sleeping.  Can you do that?  If you can, please tell me about your MAGIC.  I feel bad about this post and wish I had never posted it.  I often mistake this board for something that can help.

Art  

[artman.1]

This isn't a bashing board ...

You did something that you were pretty sure wasn't going to "work", and predictably, it didn't.

What are you getting out of this?  What's the payoff for you?

Possible payoffs:

-You get to feel morally superior

-You get to feel "normal" by comparison

-You get to ignore your own problems and issues by focusing on hers

 Art, I still see it being done on your terms and expecting different results... You are doing the same thing over and over and over, expecting her to suddenly love what it is you are doing.  You gotta stop that spin. She needs to feel heard...and she just isnt feeling heard.

Steph

 Hi! Art,

Boy do I agree with Auspicious and Steph!

I haven't spoke to you in a while. We, are both engineers and use our engineering logic to solve problems - but I finally learned after 20 years that my logic didn't work and I couldn't 'fix' my wife's view of reality that was different from mine.

I finally changed my approach, and am now learning what changes in myself are needed in order to enable me to understand my wife's needs, fears and perspectives, so I can be a better husband. Things have turned around for us, and we are now functioning as a team. I have probably recommended it to you before, but in case I didn't please get the book 'High Conflict Couple and really study it. You will be amazed at the good logic that we have missed all these years, and your wife's reaction to it.

A while back you were going to write your wife a letter - with this board's help - asking her what she needs from you in order to love you the way you need. - I think it would help you a lot if you did that.

needBPDhelp

     I have read the High Conflict Couple, three times, and I am reading it again.  I am reading Loving Someone with BPD as well.
     I think I should just stop posting and reading from this board, as It may not be helping me, and I really feel STUCK right now!

Art

[destinyschild]

Art, I totally get what you are saying. This may be a controversial thing to say on the staying board, but maybe your wife , just like some "normal" people in normal relationships,  just doesn't want to have a loving relationship, with you or anyone else. What I see is you truly have bent over backwards and tried everytHing: You've tried validation, understanding, kindness, thoughtfullness, words of dedication, loving gestures, gifts, etc etc. Has any of this worked?

Sometimes the best thing to do is what appears to be counter-intuitive; Instead of being so loving, understanding, etc...what if you were to just stop? No trying this or that, no expensive presents, no over-the-top declarations of love, etc. Just stop. I bet that would get her to notice more than a thousand declarations and gestures of love. Or what if you were to leave for a few days? Again...insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. Shaking up the pattern and doing something totally different and out of character may be what's required.

Art,  IMO she already knows you love her. She is bored and angered with your declarations of love, presents, etc. All it seems to do is enrage her further. So change the movie. She wants to keep you...let her do the work for a change. Put the ball in her court...step back... and observe carefully what happens. If she steps up to the plate...perhaps you can negotiate a new relationship, one in which she is willing to accept help. If she doesn't, then you have your answer. It takes 2 people to have a relationship. A relationship with a kind-hearted man is a gift, not something to be despised and trampled on. Stop doing what you have been doing, and let her pick up the ball for a change. It will be interesting to see what happens.

[Auspicious]

Stop doing what you have been doing, and let her pick up the ball for a change. It will be interesting to see what happens.

    Exactly. Not in a gamy way. Not as punishment or revenge. Just as recognizing that this path has taken you to where you don't want to go, every time. Time for a different path


Art, you are an engineer. Use that. 

"But my drawing says it should work!" But in the field, it just doesn't.

So ... back to the drawing board. Time to try something different. Time to test something different. Make sense?