Valentines day, Ugh

[Think About It...]

I have done the same thing in the past many times with the same result, but for me at least this quote from your post was my problem - "it was an excellent rendition of what I needed out the marriage, how it wasn't working, etc." - the letter was about my needs rather than trying to find out her needs, perspectives, desires, fears, reality etc.

I understand, but think the therapist felt he could only help me and that I couldn't force her to seek help. He wanted me to see, I believe, what needs I had that weren't being met. And, it was successful in that regard. Also, it showed me that she doesn't really care about my needs which from all appearances fits Art's situation to a T.

All these situations are different so one size will never fit all. If it worked for you then that's all the evidence you need. Often though, I think way too much time is focused on the needs of the Borderline and if they refuse to admit wrongdoing, refuse to seek help, and completely disregard you're feelings then you just have to let it go and find your own peace.

[lurchlookalike]

I have done the same thing in the past many times with the same result, but for me at least this quote from your post was my problem - "it was an excellent rendition of what I needed out the marriage, how it wasn't working, etc." - the letter was about my needs rather than trying to find out her needs, perspectives, desires, fears, reality etc.

I understand, but think the therapist felt he could only help me and that I couldn't force her to seek help. He wanted me to see, I believe, what needs I had that weren't being met. And, it was successful in that regard. Also, it showed me that she doesn't really care about my needs which from all appearances fits Art's situation to a T.

All these situations are different so one size will never fit all. If it worked for you then that's all the evidence you need. Often though, I think way too much time is focused on the needs of the Borderline and if they refuse to admit wrongdoing, refuse to seek help, and completely disregard you're feelings then you just have to let it go and find your own peace.

[artman.1]

lurchlookalike,   Thank You,  I do agree that my needs have been ignored, missunderstood, and generally refused for the last 35+ years.  She is not trying to say she is unhappy, and wanting a divorce.  She is perfectly happy, if a BPD can ever be happy, just USING me, and totally ignoring and refusing my needs.  Even though I have managed without love, and Intimacy for so long, I cannot say it did not damage me in a very bad way.  I have been denied the very essence of what a marriage is all about.  Yes, I have been her servant, and slave.  I do nearly all the INPUT in our RS.  Lets look at what does she do for me.  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?
Well, I guess that was pretty stupid.  Does she cook, well yes she does once in a while when she is hungry.  Does she do the laundry, well she does her own laundry.  Does she clean the house, well maybe the kitchen, once a month or so.  Does she clean the dishes, well maybe one time in every three.  Does she clean the bathroom, well hers only and about every other time.  I clean all the tubs, and showers.  Well, What does she do?  She watches TV, and does talk to me some, and usually whan she talks to me, she is either ranting about her family bugging her, or telling me what I should be doing, or what I did wrong, or what I should have done, and how she hates my job.  Never happy about much.  Plans her life around her favorite TV shows.  Oh, I forgot, she will go out to eat with me sometimes.  Does she work?  No.  Has she worked in the last 10 years? No  What else does she do?  She goes shopping for groceries, goes to her doctor appointments, and to buy her clothes.  She makes me lists of things I need to do.  She allows me to bring her things, and weight on her.  While eating at the Kitchen bar, she allows me to get up and go around and get her everything she forgot to get before she sat down, like her drink, and the salt & pepper, even though she could actually reach them herself.  her knees are bad and it hurts her to get up and move.  Oh, I forgot, My knees are both bone on bone and hurt, but I am strong, and can deal with it.  I'm not complaining, I just wanted to think about what needs I get met, and I just don't think there are very many at all.  The grocery shopping would be the major thing she does.  I do understand that is pretty hard, so I think it does count.  BTW, she hates for me to go to the store because I buy the store brand sometimes, and she hates the store brand.  She will allow only certain brands, and will insist on me taking the wrong brands back to the store and exchanging.
     I try to get along, but I am pretty dissapointed with my ignored, and refused needs.  I could be happier with a more congenial partner who is acceptable of the slightest wrong brand, and little other things.

Art

[Auspicious]

Living as her servant is a choice.

What if you just picked a day, or a week, and just stopped doing it?

[artman.1]

     I knew that would get attention.  It is the truth.  Yes, I should try that one.  I spend most of my time upstairs now anyway.  I actually am spending as little time as possible with her.  She mentions it some, but lets it drop quickly.  I have gotten to the point, that I simply cannot stand to hang around with her nasty moody person that she has become worse, and worse over the years.  I feel people are as beautiful as they are inside, and she has become old and wrinkly.    I will consider that suggestion and do it real soon.
     Since I am concentrating on me, I have started going weekly to CODA meetings.  I just obtained three new Melody Beattie books, the Codependent no More Workbook, and The Language of Letting Go, and The Codependents guide to the twelve steps.
That adds to a bunch of her books I have now.  Her writing style works for me.

Art

[Marvin Martian]

Artman, your story reminded me about a friend who is married for around a year to a BPD, and enmeshed for probably 2 years before that. He has made good money for a long time, and has lavished many expensive gifts on her. When she rejects [push cycle] him, and rages, you can bet how it feels to him. I mean he gives her these wonderful things as a representation of how he feels about her. I have witnessed my BPDgf dys-regulate after receiving nicer gifts as well. Perhaps there is a lesson for all of us, They can often handle a lower cost gift better than what our default setting tells us to buy.

[artman.1]

Marvin,     I really cannot say that I have lavished expensive gifts on my UBPDW.  I don't believe my gifts ever fit in that category.  I give gifts, and really want her to be happy.  She did not reject me due to gifts, rather due to her feelings that somehow , I believe, brought up terrible memories of her terribly abused childhood, and became projected on me. 
     She has finally settled down some today, after having a talk with my middle son about his facebook pictures, and another issue associated with someone in her family that has been upsetting her, concerning facebook.  Boy, I have begun to hate facebook in a really bad way.  It seems more of a place for young teens, and young adults to show their a*s.  I have a 37 year old Nephew who is pretending to be going to school, that sends a post nearly every ten minutes, and it seems he does this around the clock.  Almoast all of his friends on facebook are young girls, say from 15 to around 25 years old.  I fear he is trying to exploit them.  He has no job, and has not worked for about three or four years, he has absolutely no skills, and is drinking all the time.  he is divorced, and shares his 3 year old daughter with his wife about 50/50.  He lives with his Mom, and she takes care of her grand-daughter, while he smokes and drinks.  I really don't blame my UBPDW for being somewhat upset with them.

Art

[Auspicious]

Exiting the servant role is difficult, if you are used to it. It took me a lot of conscious effort. You don't have to be mean or rude about it, just start to recognize the servant impulse and that you don't have to obey it.

Be mindful ... attentive to your thoughts and to what is going on ... notice her signals and your "instinctive" (really, learned) impulses to respond. Noticing them is the first step to making more thoughtful decisions about them.

E.g.

Her: "I'm hungry."

You: "Can I get you something to eat?"

You: "Oh, maybe you should eat something. {tone of neutral mild interest, not sarcasm}"


We've reached a "new normal" where we still both do a degree of some nice things for each other, but it's not so lopsided or excessive.

[artman.1]

Auspicious,
     I honestly thought I was the only person who was in this servant role.  When I posted about it, frankly, I was quite embarrassed to tell that.  Yes, I must admit that she has had me serving her in nearly every way.  I really don't care, except I noticed recently, that when I asked her to get something for me, she acted like I was asking for her to do something unfair, or special.  When I need her help, she acts like I imposed upon her.  She often sets only her place at a meal, and I must get my own dishes, and silverware.  I just quietly do it.  I believe I need to stop, as she does not allow herself to do anything for me.  Maybe I should stop her money supply, and see how she likes that, but I am sure that would not work, unless I want do start doing absolutely everything including grocery shopping, and what little else she doesn do.  I really do not understand all this, but she does this maybe for control.

Art

[jardin]

Back when I was focusing primarily on S, I was avoiding my own painful feelings.  Trying to fix her allowed me to push the hard stuff down.  Trying to fix us gave me something to focus on.  Reading and posting were helpful, but also good distractions.  Analyzing her and her choices kept painful feelings away.  Kept me from having to make painful choices.  I was an avoidance machine. 

It got me nowhere but more of the same.  I didn't realize I had a choice...a choice between two tough paths forward. 

The fact is that hard feelings in this context are unavoidable. On the one hand, if you say no I'm not doing these things anymore/not letting you run over my boundaries/not rescuing, you may feel fear, guilt (over not rescuing), worry, anxiety, etc.  These are not fun feelings - especially for the many of us who are so familiar with rescuing that it feels safe. 

On the other hand, if you continue on doing what you've been doing, you continue to feel anger, sadness, despair, hopelessness, resentment, etc.  These clearly are also not fun feelings.

At some point, you will need to make a choice.  Do you want to feel guilt/fear or do you want to feel pain/suffering.  The former are tough but they are finite...they imply you took some action forward out of this and they tend to dissipate with time.  The latter are tough and they are not finite (at least not without serious therapeutic intervention for you); you very well could experience this same suffering every day for the rest of your life. 

It's a choice we all have to make. What do we want to bear. The answer comes from knowing your objective and values.  Running from what is already within us is a futile waste of energy and lifetime. 

[lurchlookalike]

At some point, you will need to make a choice.  Do you want to feel guilt/fear or do you want to feel pain/suffering.  The former are tough but they are finite...they imply you took some action forward out of this and they tend to dissipate with time. The latter are tough and they are not finite (at least not without serious therapeutic intervention for you); you very well could experience this same suffering every day for the rest of your life.

This is a profound bit of insight. It is a terrible choice to have to make. Which of these 2 negatives is less objectionable? One holds the promise of future relief. I hear you jardin, very true, thank you.

[Happiest]

At some point, you will need to make a choice.  Do you want to feel guilt/fear or do you want to feel pain/suffering.  The former are tough but they are finite...they imply you took some action forward out of this and they tend to dissipate with time. The latter are tough and they are not finite (at least not without serious therapeutic intervention for you); you very well could experience this same suffering every day for the rest of your life.

This is a profound bit of insight. It is a terrible choice to have to make. Which of these 2 negatives is less objectionable? One holds the promise of future relief. I hear you jardin, very true, thank you.

Yes food for thought indeed. Thank you

[Go Fish]

Hi Art,

I've been following your posts for a while, and have also been married to a uBPDh for many years. Have you ever gone away for a week before? How did she handle it? I wouldn't recommend visiting a female friend, that would get complicated very quickly, but is she able to be alone?

On the rages at night, the mean words, someone told me these come from the primitive part of their minds, not the rational, logical which you work with. So rest assured your care of your sons is still real and can't be taken away. I know how painful it is to be invalidated in this way, it's what drove me to this site. I also recognize the desire to have a functioning
Relationship, to deny the reality of BPD, but that's what it is.

I've stopped putting pressure on him with presents--these really always
Bring negative reactions. He likes a hug better or just a small thing, and sometimes can't handle holidays at all, any of them. It hurts to admit and let go of things I like. Finding a separate peace is such good advice.

Take care, I think you are going in the right direction, even with anger and disbelief and sadness.

[Grey Kitty]

Auspicious,
     I honestly thought I was the only person who was in this servant role.  When I posted about it, frankly, I was quite embarrassed to tell that.  Yes, I must admit that she has had me serving her in nearly every way.  I really don't care, except I noticed recently, that when I asked her to get something for me, she acted like I was asking for her to do something unfair, or special.  When I need her help, she acts like I imposed upon her.  She often sets only her place at a meal, and I must get my own dishes, and silverware.  I just quietly do it. 

Wow. That sounds really tough to live with.

You say that you don't care. I wonder if you have just given up caring, instead.  But it doesn't matter how you feel about it--you cannot do anything to directly change her actions.

I believe I need to stop, as she does not allow herself to do anything for me.

What Auspicious described was setting a boundary of refusing to care for her every wish and whim. THAT is something that you personally have the power to do for yourself. It doesn't require her to take any action.

Maybe I should stop her money supply, and see how she likes that, but I am sure that would not work, unless I want do start doing absolutely everything including grocery shopping, and what little else she doesn do. 

If you cut off her money supply, that would feel like punishment. I would not expect good things to come from that. (Setting boundaries sounds more productive to me)

I really do not understand all this, but she does this maybe for control.

BINGO! She is getting what she wants out of you, isn't she?

[artman.1]

Gray Kitty,  Yes, she is getting what she wants, and I am not, and have not for a long time.  She does have an uncanny way of getting me to do things.  Often, when I do things, she finds fault.  I have quit doing things for a while, but then it starts over again.  Now days when she finds fault, I just turn around and leave the room.  If I had something cooking, I shut it off and leave immediately.  If she wants it, then she will have to finish it herself.  I did this enough, that she usually does not find fault.

Art

[truthwillsetyoufree]

Exiting the servant role is difficult, if you are used to it. It took me a lot of conscious effort. You don't have to be mean or rude about it, just start to recognize the servant impulse and that you don't have to obey it.

LOL, I am the Servant Girl! That's my job... and I have always liked my job, it made me happy to serve him.

Until I realized that what I was really doing was throwing my life, my energy, my self, and my children into various bottomless pits. My efforts disappear into oblivion, never to be remembered again. That's not so rewarding, and pretty soon you run out of stuff to throw in.

I need to figure out how to have a r/s without doing that, but you know what- I don't WANT to. I want to just have an effortless enjoyable mutually respect-filled relationship with a person who is my equal. But that isn't what I can have here, so I have to do things differently, even though I don't want to. It isn't fair.

Art, I just want to say I totally respect you. I know you have given your all to this r/s and you deserve so much better. Don't feel that you have done anything wrong. I feel your pain.

[isilme]

I am guilty of too much serving, too.  BF liked to yell at me that I'm not his mom (a lot of his anger seems directed at his mom, and he feels guilty over that, and so I get the brunt of his anger at her and "all women" being negative some way), but he'd still not step in and do things for himself, and then would complain I'd not 'helped' him by doing them - it was a very trying thing.  I'd get ugly looks from his brother's GF for my not keeping a ship-shape household, and for not cleaning up after her BF, too, when I was the only one out of school and working 60 hour weeks. 

I thought he'd appreciate what I was doing for him (us), but each time I was met with, "You didn't wash the dishes right, you should drive this way to get to Point A, you should have done THIS THAT way," and not feeling my efforts were reciprocated much of the time, I started feeling very resentful.

So it was hard, but I resolved to let BF fail at certain things - if he wanted laundry, he had to do it.  If he wanted dinner a certain, way, he got to cook it - I'd clean as a fair share of chores, but I would not cook to have it criticized.  I also have gotten out of feeling it's my job to keep him on time with school, bills and taxes.  He's almost 35 - he can take care of this stuff just as I have since I was 19, and if he doesn't, he can reap the 'rewards' of late fees, nasty letters and so on.  Me reminding him just made him rebel against his mom more by ignoring me, if that makes BPD sense. 

So I stopped 'helping with' (doing) his school work, stopped taking in forms for him, filing in forms for him, doing taxes for him and so on. 

And get this - even though he's still terrible at it, and I'm sure the property tax is late this year, he's learned painfully that it is HIS job (I pay all utilities and car payments and we split food - he pays house/car insurance (cheaper bundled and prop. tax).  He still likes to toss it in my face on bad BPD days like I contribute nothing because I'm not the one saving $1000+ a year for this one bill, but I know the math and know I contribute just as much over the course of the year and detach as I can from it.

So it's hard to keep mum when you see your SO is trying to get you to jump and make a sandwich or run to the store, but it's also very enabling to be the servant.

servantgirl,

I think what you are describing is that you'd be happy 'serving' someone who gave back without a fight, without guilt and with the same intent as you give in the first place.  BPD makes this dang hard.  In some bad ways, we can 'train' our pwBPD to engage in some NPD traits of the idea they deserve special treatment without any appreciation or reciprocation.  Also, for me to appreciate that you took off work to care for me when I am sick, I'd have to have a bit of empathy for others, which is also hard for pwBPD.  I was my mothers' caretaker much of my life, and her whims were my job to fulfill - so I grew up with a strong 'serving' streak.  I have had to actively practice 'selfishness' which isn't really being selfish, it's just not being a doormat, in order to make nay headway.

I've also let go of a lot of my expectations - when it comes to tasks I'd have to do single or in an r/s, I just treat them as though I am single, and it helps a lot with the resentment.  My lawn doesn't care if I have a BF or not - it still needs mowing and he doesn't care if it gets done, or wants to pay too much money for someone else to do what I can do and get good exercise doing.  If I know BF can handle a task without too much grief I let him in his own time - usually it will get done... at a weird time (11PM?) but the bathroom WILL get caulked, and his laundry WILL get washed (12AM? before work the next day).  So I let him do what he will, take care of what I just can't ignore in my own space, and then allow the rest to sit until one of us does it, or I realize it didn't matter most of the time, anyway.

Anyway, I know it's hard, but it's sooooo important to find ways to stop enabling, even small ones.  A lot of times we do things for them to stave off a rage, but the rage will just come over something else, or what we did will be 'wrong' and so we wasted a lot of time and energy doing something that's not appreciated, not reciprocated and not stopping the rage.  So we need to stop working so hard in that direction, and pick another one. 

[artman.1]

isilme, servantgirl,
     Hey!  That's not fair.  You took the complaints right out of my mouth!  This is my life, not yours, because I have been here longer, so there, HA!  
     Absolutely right, Why do they all seem to be the same person, whether they are Male, or Female?  Maybe BPD morphs them into some kind of UniSex Being from a Science Fiction Film.  That explains why all intimacy is rejected.  She Ain't Human anymore! HA!  
     Just being crazy today!

Art

[isilme]

Hey Art - good you can kinda laugh at least today.

[artman.1]

Thank You, isilme,
     I think I need that vacation after last week.  I really don't think holing up in the upstairs Confuzer room is a vacation.
     Hey, want to go to Palm Desert for a week?  HA!  Palm Desert is the new part of Palm Springs.
I guess I am just daydreaming, but you would as well.  Here is the link.
     http://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/ctdds-marriotts-desert-springs-villas-i/

     How do you like this place?

Art

[isilme]

Sorry - when you mentioned Palm Springs all I could see what Bugs and Daffy looking for that left turn at Albuquerque.



 You should go and enjoy.