Can't stop thinking about her.

[Think About It...]

PushPull,

I'm not saying you are wrong at all.  And you are right they are confusing, it is hard to come to grips with the thing they do. It is like explaining the unexplainable.  I'm not saying I disagree with a having a manly man at all, or a sensitive guy.  I kind of think most men are a little bit of both.  I think my point was don't force something you feel you are not and jump through hoops for a person that is going to trip you up at any given chance.  You deserve better if you are putting in real effort.  I think you are using the knowledge you have acquired when searching for answers to help explain why she has done this, to get into her mind a little bit and  to get some kind of closure...because she didn't operate in a considerate way and help you with that at the end of a relationship.  Sometimes it is not how a person starts a relationship that speaks of their character, but how they end it.  The only thing is in the front of many of the relationship books they don't add the following disclaimer (probably because the author never had the pleasure of being in a relationship with a pwBPD):

This book is for relatively normal functioning people.  This author doesn't guarantee or endorse his work if you are in a relationship with a cluster b personality disorder.  These romance rules don't apply and this work is null and void if you are dating a BPD.

-GM

[GreenMango]

PushPull,

I'm not saying you are wrong at all.  And you are right they are confusing, it is hard to come to grips with the thing they do. It is like explaining the unexplainable.  I'm not saying I disagree with a having a manly man at all, or a sensitive guy.  I kind of think most men are a little bit of both.  I think my point was don't force something you feel you are not and jump through hoops for a person that is going to trip you up at any given chance.  You deserve better if you are putting in real effort.  I think you are using the knowledge you have acquired when searching for answers to help explain why she has done this, to get into her mind a little bit and  to get some kind of closure...because she didn't operate in a considerate way and help you with that at the end of a relationship.  Sometimes it is not how a person starts a relationship that speaks of their character, but how they end it.  The only thing is in the front of many of the relationship books they don't add the following disclaimer (probably because the author never had the pleasure of being in a relationship with a pwBPD):

This book is for relatively normal functioning people.  This author doesn't guarantee or endorse his work if you are in a relationship with a cluster b personality disorder.  These romance rules don't apply and this work is null and void if you are dating a BPD.

-GM

[123Phoebe]

I think the best thing for me to do is realize that I'll never work out this puzzle, and to simply stop trying and get on with my life.  

  The disordered Cluster B behaviors are theirs to deal with, not ours to endure. 

[push pull]

my one most definitely had BPD and its not me saying it to make me feel better. her whole family has my back on that diagnosis  and everyone on my side saw something fishy too even though they only noticed 0.1% of what was going on. mine was seeking excessive romance sometimes fairy tale like and very OTT. romeo himself would have cringed. i would do the usual on occasions and buy her flowers, chocolates, milkshakes etc and say i love her a few times during the day. she would throw the words marriage to me on a constant basis, want to talk about babies names, mention how our house would be decorated etc. so from that to 'you are the weakest link goodbye' in the space of a day is still and will always be a shock.

Jeffrey, a psychiatrist pseudofriend of hers on facebook was convinced she had ADHD. She also told me herself that she's not normal like everyone else, but she believed that she was bipolar. I disagreed, I believed she was borderline, as almost every symptom fit. Her mother believed she had serious issues too, but then so did her mother - she'd been sectioned off twice having two breakdowns, which may have been induced because she'd been raped by all her brothers and her sister. And BTW, i hope I haven't made you feel ashamed or emasculated about being romantic towards your partner, i.e., buying flowers, chocolates, etc. If I came across that way in my previous posts I apologize; without covering old ground again, I was just trying to point out that what you were doing since splitting up with your ex is just going to humiliate you and feed her narcissism much worse. That's all. I've no doubt there's many healthy women out there who do consistently appreciate such romantic gestures.

Mango,

You're right about not having to jump through loopholes for another person in order to please them or get them to like you. TBH, as soon as I saw crazy, I should have had the common sense not to get involved in it. I was 31 years old at them time, I should have been well and truly versed in that area to know better and what I want from a woman and life. But I'd never been involved with a crazy before and I just did not expect it because I'd very naively allowed myself to be heavily preconditioned into believing she was a lovely girl via long phone conversations we shared. Yes, there were red flags, but she was so convincing in her excuses, that I just thought they were the result of human error and too much alcohol. Not only this, but her telephone personality was completely different from the her actual persona. This is something I feel totally alone in trying to articulate to others - even members on this board - because I don't think anyone had been subjected to this incredibly strange personality switch when talking to their BPD on the phone. She would come across as a completely different person on the phone - she had a down to earth regional accent, was really warm, sweet and caring -- every man's dream. Then in person, she had a posh accent, a daddy's spoiled little rich girl attitude, and just completely different personality altogether. In fact, her personality seemed to split quite frequently in person. THEN, when I'd go back home, she'd phone me again, and revert back into the sweet, warm, loving person with the common regional accent again. Now, I understand that some people do sound a tad different on the phone, but this was a complete shift in personality. It has to be one of the strangest phenomenons I have ever experienced in my life. I can only describe it as though this girl was demon possessed and the demon nestling within her used different hosts to get what it wanted. I might sound like a crank saying that (rightfully so), but if you witnessed this, you'd understand what I'm talking about. Consequently, it was this telephone personality that kept reeling me back in each time she dumped me. My mind would affix to this personality, and it would forget about the cruel, sadistic person she was when I was with her.  

123Phoebe,

That's an excellent point. I'm fortunate I can let go of crazy, she can't.

[WalrusGumboot]

Love... should not be this hard. Coming home to the one you love should be the highlight of your day, and peace should reign.

I would rather be alone for the rest of my life than to endure the wackiness again.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for members with failed or failing relationships that want to detach from their relationship and relationship wounds. If you are still analyzing the decision to stay, please post on Undecided: Staying or Leaving All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[GreenMango]

Love... should not be this hard. Coming home to the one you love should be the highlight of your day, and peace should reign.

I would rather be alone for the rest of my life than to endure the wackiness again.

Yep.

[34broken]

I am actually thinking of leaving this BPD board soon because I think its a trigger for me and really.. why should I keep on reading up and be an amateur BPD scholar when my ex is gone.. almost been a month now. She is an intelligent, manipulative, bulimic,self mutilating, hot mess w/BPD. I can't do this anymore. And neither should you Jeff. Peace.   

Thank you Mango for the shout out... i suppose great and tortured minds think alike. Anyway, my above quote from yesterday seems a little dramatic. There was another thread started today about 'the emptiness' and if it takes a rant on the BPD board to continue NC .. then I am all for that. Because once you break it ...  it starts that w/d alllll over again. It's been two weeks... if I would have stuck to my guns .. I'd been on a month and  I am sure with a lot less torture. 

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.  I could use some emotional erasing right about now.

[GreenMango]

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.  I could use some emotional erasing right about now.

I wanted that too for awhile...then it dawned on me I'd probably end up having to relive this nightmare again.
-GM

[whatmatters]

wow.

I am so glad I've found this site.  I am currently obsessed with a diagnosed BPD girl I have been friends with for 3 years online. For two years she gradually reeled me in and then she started changing.

Over the past 6 months  the push / pull dynamic of loving me and then ditching me for another guy in the drop of a hat has left me going insane. We just split up and are in no contact.

The scariest thing I have experienced is what push pull said in that she seemed so sweet, shy and tender on skype and on the phone, like we had such a pure loving connection, over the first two years. Then in person she was quite vindictive and devilish, like a different person from the one i had got to know for so many hours speaking. . i didn't realize just how much she had hooked me in and now I am suffering from thinking of her constantly worrying if she is cutting herself or not.

I thought it was over around christmas time, then she gets in contact saying how she has no where else to turn. Like a sucker im reeled back in, I fly her out of there and then after that i go visit her home and meet her family.

We got on so well I thought she was the woman of my dreams, we were talking of marriage and how she doesn't have long before she wants kids. Two weeks later she if off again with some other dude and we r just friends, she tells me i'm obsessed and over analyzing what has happened between us. 

I flew her all over the place on hard earned money, we had a great time and had great photos of our trip. Strange thing was she wouldn't put one photo of our trip up on facebook, no mention that she went with me, of course because it turns out she has various other guys on the web who are just as hooked in as I am !

The other insane thing was that she never tells anyone her age, ever. But i needed to know it to book her flight, so it turned out she is 32, but as we were splitting up she told me she lied about her age and she is 24. Crazy.

She just cut off connection with me because she found a new guy and then I got so needy. She gave me no explanation as to why I wasnt wanted anymore. It has pissed me off as it has been through a few cycles over the past 6 months and I just cant take it anymore. Part of me is thinking her cutting me off is a blessing and i need support to be in zero contact myself. I have been obsessed and needy but since we have not been speaking I have gone from being an anxious nervous co dependent agoraphobic wreck to getting my life back in order and getting heaps of cool things done.
 
like i say, glad to find this site,
from a very confused, shaken 30 year old, just started therapy this week to get my self back to myself !

[123Phoebe]

Hi Jeffrey, I want to apologize for being harsh with you.  I, of all people, know how incredibly hard this all is, so again, I'm sorry. 

Guess I just wanted you to see things from a different angle, so as not to continue on the path that leads to nowhere when dealing with someone suffering from BPD.  As much as your heart and intentions are in the right place, it's focused in the wrong direction.  That love should be focused on YOU, and why someone with so much good in them, finds himself in such an awful predicament.

The BPD behaviors aren't going anywhere unless your ex gets serious help.  She will likely be back.  It's important to really find yourself during this time, to know what you will/will not put up with in future relationships, be it with your ex or some new hot babe

While it's important to somewhat know the ABC's of BPD, it's more important to know and honor yourself.  'We' tend to get lost in these relationships, as the disorder grows and grows, draining our energy.  We enable, run to, try to fix etc, while all those 'noble' deeds backfire big time.  'We' cannot fix this disorder for them.  All the love in the world will not fix it for them.  Therapy will help, but it's not an absolute, and they have to want it by accepting that they even have an actual problem.  There are usually enough people in their inner circle who can prop their false selves up enough so that the seriousness of the disorder goes unrecognized and flourishes. 

By reinforcing bad behavior - showering love in the midst of atrociousness, it's essentially saying, 'Hey, it's cool, treat me like sh*t and I'll come a'runnin to you, my love...' 

I tend to believe that deep down, pwBPD know that we don't think it's cool, how could we possibly think it's okay (THEY would NEVER put up with such treatment), so then they lose trust and respect for us.  It's looked upon as a weakness.

So anyway, blah blah blah...  Hang in there, Jeffrey, this too shall pass and you'll be a better man for it   

[jeffrey12]

push pull:

hey, i never took it personal everyones entitled to an opinion 

Love... should not be this hard. Coming home to the one you love should be the highlight of your day, and peace should reign.

I would rather be alone for the rest of my life than to endure the wackiness again.

your completely correct but that would only be the case if the whole world was full of mentally healthy people. people with BPD express the supposed 'love' in completely counter productive ways and its a shame because they are still human and deserve to be loved but because they act in inhumane ways they will lead and live a life of poison.. yes, i know its their problem not ours but when you love someone you don't want them to go through that self destructive pattern...

[dah1029]

What Matters--  Tag the photos and post them on facebook.  They'll show up on her profile too.  She'll be screwed.!

And Jeff they are poison.  But it is more than just their problem.  Their poison overflows into other's lives.  And we all suffer .  If someone had told me that my ex was a BPD alcoholic, I would have run.  I never agreed to take on this mess.  He's poisonous and now I have to recover from his toxic personality.

[push pull]

What Matters, it's a good sign that you've admitted that you have a problem, and it's good that you're taking steps to deal with them. If I was you, I'd remain in therapy so that your T can provide tools for you to break this toxic obsession you have with this woman, otherwise she's going to absolutely destroy your mind.

Let me tell you, the things you've told me about her online antics, my ex also played games with lots of guys, while pretending to care for them and help them through their problems. Many of them had PD's themselves, alcoholics, or drug addicts. Sometimes a combination of the three.

None of them realized that this kind, caring, angel, was stealthily causing them to fall in love with her, so she could get them wrapped around her little finger and play sick little games with them. Sometimes she'd go to see a male friend, which would then enrage the other guys stuck in her facebook web, or sometimes focus her attention exclusively on one guy, then repeat the same tactic with someone else. She knew precisely what she was doing, and she absolutely reveled in the ego power at her disposal. These guys could probably sense something was off, but they didn't want to say anything to her, which would cause them to blow their chances with her. Then when she got with me, she began triangulating (read definition) me with these guys. It was a nasty little trap I let myself fall into, but at least I got to meet her in person and see who she really was beneath the cyber veneer. These poor guys still don't have that solid confirmation, and are still being manipulated by her. And no doubt the guy she's with now is being triangulated with these guys.

[jeffrey12]

123phoebe:

hey pheobe,

everyone is entitled to an opinion. i just believed your angle was based on me being this crazy obsessive person who was stalking my ex, calling her, txting her which isnt the case. yes for a while after the break up i was trying to make amends but more so gain an understanding on what went wrong and happened but that fizzled out after a few weeks.

on the boards i speak my mind and my genuine feelings. but in reality i do have an excessive social life and spend a lot of time bettering myself physically and mentally but i still about her regularly in a loving and caring way. thats just me as a person and it makes me upset a lot but i'm happy that i have feelings even though i thought i was emotionless at times concerning women.

my intentions after the new years was for us to start fresh after all the arguing that was taking place and for us to 'both' seek help. me in order to cope better and her to learn to try and control the BPD. what i do know though is that i put up with a lot of sht no question about that but thats because i had a long term image in my mind and all i expected was for her to realise her issues and seek help to make herself better which in return would benefit me and the relationship.

well it did backfire severely which i wasn't expecting in a million years. her family knew she had an issue but they didn't really take it seriously. they all loved me but towards the end they all had enough of our relationship due to the constant arguing that she was causing so in return i think they just got bored of it. worked to my disadvantage because when she would go on about how bad i was etc they probably just to make their life easier said well 'you both don't get along'.. with comments like that they wouldn't be pushed in a corner by her after she felt they were being critical towards her so danielle was satisfied they were satisfied but the only person who got affected in a negative way was moi.. but i wont hold a grudge against them they done it to make their life easier..

your right with the whole reinforcing the bad behaviour. i done it indirectly and subconsciously. in my mind her behaviour was appalling at times which she caused over stupidity. me running back to her was in my mind triggered by not allowing pathetic things to be the reason for the break up and also because i didn't like her being upset. it's not nice when the person you love would make themselves genuinely upset over stuff that technically she made up.. my ex said in writing that she knew she acted crazy at times and that she wouldn't put up with herself.. is it a weakness to put up with someone who has a mental illness? for me putting up with stuff like that must be more than reassuring and reconfirm the fact that they are loved by us..

thanks for your message  

[123Phoebe]

Hi Jeff,

i just believed your angle was based on me being this crazy obsessive person who was stalking my ex, calling her, txting her which isnt the case.

In your ex's frame of mind, this IS how she'd rationalize it though.  It alleviates her own sense of wrong doing/guilt/heavy emotions by putting you into that role, the role of the obsessive ex.  YES, her actions created a reaction from you.  YES, in a normal relationship you should be able to talk about things and either resolve issues or get closure.  It just isn't the case with disordered people.

As far as the arguments go, there are lessons on the forum to defuse them, to stop making things worse...  By validating the emotions before the super-duper crappy behavior rears its ugly head.

my ex said in writing that she knew she acted crazy at times and that she wouldn't put up with herself.. is it a weakness to put up with someone who has a mental illness? for me putting up with stuff like that must be more than reassuring and reconfirm the fact that they are loved by us..

I'm not saying you're weak Jeff, definitely want to clarify that.  It takes tremendous amounts of strength being in these relationships.  There is so much guilt and shame and self loathing going on underneath the surface of pwBPD/NPD/ClusterB personalities.  Many of them know they've done crappy things that if we were to ever find out, we would RUN and abandon them, their worst nightmare.  And they're RIGHT!  A healthy human being would and should walk away from inhumane behaviors.  So at the VERY first sign of dysregulation, rather than making things worse by jumping into the foray, you simply and calmly walk away, letting them know you will be back once things have settled.  Once you're in the thick of things with arguments and dissention flying around, it gives a pwBPD an excuse to resort to their tried and true defense mechanisms - which always make things worse.  So no, it isn't a weakness putting up with someone who has a mental illness, as long as you understand the illness and respond accordingly - think Gandhi  What would Gandhi do?  And remember that you're human.  

The stuff your ex has been piling on your shoulders, really has nothing to do with you or your ability to have a mature relationship.  She's the one that needs to carry her own load, sit with her own emotions, deal with her own issues...  

How do you think things would have played out differently had you told her THAT YOU need a little time and space to think, after she bailed on you at the shoe store?  She could yell and blame you for being hot for the saleschick all she wants.  But what if you said, it's not acceptable to YOU to be blamed and left for hours, and that YOU need a day or 2 days to think about this...  Leaving her with her own sh*t to carry around on her shoulders...  And take that day/days to lick your wounds and really think about things...  Sit with your own anxiety about it...  Create a boundary:  I will not be in a relationship with someone that thinks it's okay to leave me stranded at a shoe store for hours.  Are you really okay with that?  Remember that pwBPD are emotional children and they NEED boundaries, rules and strength coming from their partners.  Not saying that they'll 'obey' any of these things, as we all have free will, but it helps to know what you're lines in the sand are.  It's not acceptable to let children run amuck.

It isn't ALL ABOUT THEM, good or bad, as much as they'd like to think it is and as much as we reinforce that it is.  We fit into the relationship somewhere.  

Okay, I've babbled enough...  Hope you have a nice weekend planned!  Take care.
 

[dah1029]

Jeff--  It can be hard to write lines in the sand, when there's a sandstorm going on.  I came to the realization at Xmas time that "sometimes broke, can't be fixed".  And we can either humanely accept them for who they are, or not.  I'm trying to make peace with my exBPDbf.  I broke NC to write him an email today.  But not to get him back.  We live in a  small country town, go to the same local establishments, and have mutual friends.  I said that I wanted us to be ok with eachother.  For the sake of ourselves, but also our mutual friends.  I want to not feel awkward when we run into eachother, be able to greet eachother, and hopefully our friends can see us being ok with eachother.  I told him that I would appreciate it if we could be kind and supportive of eachother when we run into eachother for the sake of all of our mutual friends and ourselves.   I need  to move forward in my life.  I can't stand obsessing on him, what he's done, what's wrong with him, and will he ever come back.  I want to focus on myself, find peace with the ex, and leave this behind me.

[whatmatters]

jeff.

" her family knew she had an issue but they didn't really take it seriously. they all loved me but towards the end they all had enough of our relationship due to the constant arguing that she was causing so in return i think they just got bored of it. worked to my disadvantage because when she would go on about how bad i was etc they probably just to make their life easier said well 'you both don't get along'.. with comments like that they wouldn't be pushed in a corner by her after she felt they were being critical towards her so danielle was satisfied they were satisfied but the only person who got affected in a negative way was moi.. but i wont hold a grudge against them they done it to make their life easier. "

I got on really well with my diagnosed ex BPD's family when I was around them but she said that they didn't want us to carry on speaking when we were arguing and I think your right they need to put themselves first and take care of their own. It did hurt though. When we were all together it felt like they and I knew what was up, they could see i genuinely cared about their daughter and it felt like we were all working towards some kind of goal of stability and a healthy life for her. She derailed it by pushing me away and going after guys that for the most part just want her for sex/ Before I just took some space and she came back around but this time I couldn't handle it anymore and called her on all the crap, so she just let me go and told me I need DBT therapy and that she has got help so all the problems must be mine. Im in therapy alright, because the pushing and pulling of trying to save someone that keeps wanting to drown has been to much for me.      Im just learning about BPD and feel like I should have read up on it ages ago. I feel like I have an obsession with someone that I thought was a friend, but now looking back I can see the way her BPD gradually pulled me in and im dependent on her because she showed me so much adoration for so long.   What it is really about is our own lack of wholeness within ourselves mate, me included, otherwise I dont think we would be trying to save these types. There is something in the lack in us and they have in common and get drawn to each other. Do whatever you can retain your sense of self and your own soul, im just starting out at that and its hard, im thinking about her all day every day, worrying if she is ok and all that sht, we spoke of a long term vision, now i think she was just screwing with my head with or without knowing it

[bpdlover]

Jeff, lots of posts and still in the cycle. It must be real tough for you mate. I have let the ex go and am now working away at my personal issues that attracted her to me in the first place. We have chatted many times and you have some great insights on your ex. The one thing you have to do now is really let her go. I know this is not the first time you have read this but it's now time. She was given to you as a lesson, now she is gone and will continue to move on until she gets the help she needs. It's your show now Jeff.

[jeffrey12]

123phoebe:

thanks for your long reply  

i find it therapeutic messaging on the boards and asking questions to excuse me if i sound like i'm going round in circles repeating myself.. i agree with what your saying about walking away at times of arguing BUT from what i experienced in my relationship doesn't that trigger the ABANDONMENT issues..? i felt that if i stayed their and argued back it would of made things worse, if i stayed quiet and let her vent she would take it as me ignoring her and if i walked out the front door even if she kicked me out she would feel abandoned..


The stuff your ex has been piling on your shoulders, really has nothing to do with you or your ability to have a mature relationship.  She's the one that needs to carry her own load, sit with her own emotions, deal with her own issues...  

i completely agree with this. i just believe that my ex and maybe others exs with BPD didn't appreciate how much they put their partners through and when it got too much for them they opted to walk away from the relationships..


How do you think things would have played out differently had you told her THAT YOU need a little time and space to think, after she bailed on you at the shoe store? She could yell and blame you for being hot for the saleschick all she wants.  But what if you said, it's not acceptable to YOU to be blamed and left for hours, and that YOU need a day or 2 days to think about this...  Leaving her with her own sh*t to carry around on her shoulders...  And take that day/days to lick your wounds and really think about things...  Sit with your own anxiety about it...  Create a boundary:  I will not be in a relationship with someone that thinks it's okay to leave me stranded at a shoe store for hours.  Are you really okay with that?  Remember that pwBPD are emotional children and they NEED boundaries, rules and strength coming from their partners.  Not saying that they'll 'obey' any of these things, as we all have free will, but it helps to know what you're lines in the sand are.  It's not acceptable to let children run amuck.



this is the best post i've read on this forum up till now.. in hindsight i believe i put up with stuff because i didn't want stupidity to come between us but also because i BELIEVED i would be making things worse by setting up a boundary and taking a step back. i'll be honest and say i was to an extent scared to lose her but my coping methods probably made it worse for me and easier on her.. throughout the relationship i didn't put up with stuff and i made it fairly obvious but towards the end i was drained out and opted to just let her get on with her problems and i would sit there and listen and not really have much to say..  

you've definitely read up a lot on BPD.

[jeffrey12]

Jeff--  It can be hard to write lines in the sand, when there's a sandstorm going on.  I came to the realization at Xmas time that "sometimes broke, can't be fixed".  And we can either humanely accept them for who they are, or not.  I'm trying to make peace with my exBPDbf.  I broke NC to write him an email today.  But not to get him back.  We live in a  small country town, go to the same local establishments, and have mutual friends.  I said that I wanted us to be ok with eachother.  For the sake of ourselves, but also our mutual friends.  I want to not feel awkward when we run into eachother, be able to greet eachother, and hopefully our friends can see us being ok with eachother.  I told him that I would appreciate it if we could be kind and supportive of eachother when we run into eachother for the sake of all of our mutual friends and ourselves.   I need  to move forward in my life.  I can't stand obsessing on him, what he's done, what's wrong with him, and will he ever come back.  I want to focus on myself, find peace with the ex, and leave this behind me.

my ex isn't even willing to give me an ounce of respect and that's what's hurtful. the break up was sudden but that i could get over but her moving on so quick made me feel betrayed and totally disrespected. this is coming from someone who said the thought of us two breaking up would send her into a frenzy a week prior to our break up.. whether she meant it or she didn't whether its the BPD talking or not it doesn't interest me. i would never treat people like that let alone do anything of a sort to her.

the only thing i've gained from this experience is that when someone tells me that they love me i will take it with a pinch of salt.

[bpdlover]

We can only take a person's word if their actions back up what they say. That is why looking for a long term relationship takes time. Nothing good comes quick and easy. My ex treated me as badly as I have ever been treated. I can't believe anybody is capable of the behaviour that she displayed. The fact is, they are and we have to learn from it. You would never treat someone the way you have been treated and there are more people out there like you than like her.