Talk to me- Round table style.

[Think About It...]

One of things that greatly tripped me up during the 13 year relationship I had, was my own expectations of her during the relationship. Despite her showing me time and time again that things were not going to be how I wished they would be, I still held on to my desires to change her into the woman I wanted her to be.

The beginning of the relationship was pretty good. I'm sure you all know the story. During the "honeymoon" phase of the relationship, there were red flags, but the overall feeling I was having far outweighed them all. I felt great. I felt loved.

As that all faded away in the months ahead, I spent more than enough time trying to get it all back.

So, my initial dealings with her were awesome, but what came next, didn't align with my desires. After years of her showing me who she really was, I still expected different, and could not manage to drop those expectations.

Can you all tell me how your expectations and desires conflicted with what you experienced?

[PDQuick]

One of things that greatly tripped me up during the 13 year relationship I had, was my own expectations of her during the relationship. Despite her showing me time and time again that things were not going to be how I wished they would be, I still held on to my desires to change her into the woman I wanted her to be.

The beginning of the relationship was pretty good. I'm sure you all know the story. During the "honeymoon" phase of the relationship, there were red flags, but the overall feeling I was having far outweighed them all. I felt great. I felt loved.

As that all faded away in the months ahead, I spent more than enough time trying to get it all back.

So, my initial dealings with her were awesome, but what came next, didn't align with my desires. After years of her showing me who she really was, I still expected different, and could not manage to drop those expectations.

Can you all tell me how your expectations and desires conflicted with what you experienced?

[azmomm2]

Interesting thought...

I am not an expectation-driven person. I learned before this relationship that I have no control over what another person does, thinks, or feels.

BUT - I did have expectations...

- I expected that even though he was initially insecure, that he would get to a place where he felt secure, content, and loved. It never came.
- I expected that we'd be able to negotiate any issue we couldn't agree on. His pattern of dysregulation has made that impossible.
- I expected that we'd grow as a couple and true intimacy would bloom. It's never happened - I don't think he is capable of intimacy as I'd like it.
- I expected that life would be an adventure we'd go through hand-in-hand. Instead, he is angry and depressed and views life as more of a challenge than an adventure.

So yes... I had expectations. And none of my expectations were or can be realized in this marriage.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for analyzing and making the decision to either continue working on your relationship or to leave it. If you have already please advance to "L3 Leaving" or the "L4 Staying" board. All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[PDQuick]

Tell us Azmomm2, How have your expectations kept you in the relationship? I see that you are still together with him, am I correct?

Also, have you learned to neutralize your expectations, and use acceptance in its place? If so, how has that gone?

[o2bz14u]

I think that the problem with my relationships is that I never did have any "expectations". Just "go with the flow". Drift along.  Take things as they come.  I've lived my whole life like this, even in work relationships.

This was great when things were great. Then things would change  a bit and still be good. Then things started changing further and the demands put upon me started to break my back. By then it was too late to create any "expectations" in the relationship. The other person isn't suddenly going to  start changing  anything that does not suit their needs,  which are already being met fully. They are not going to give up anything.

In the early stages of a relationship I tend to let things slide, put things on a back burner, forget about important things for a while. I think the other person assumes "It will always be wonderful like this!" and are shocked and confused when  they start getting requests or expectations that are all new to them and don't suit their whims.


Maybe unconsciously I thought that setting expectations would  always 'scare them off' right in the beginning, or rather, before there even was a 'beginning'.



I realize now that it is better to be completely alone than to live like this. 

[azmomm2]

I learned to neutralize my expectations a while back. I realized this marriage could never be what I want it to be a couple years ago.

Then I was led to this site, and found out WHY it likely could never be what I want it to be.

So yes, I am at a place of sad acceptance. And I don't like the view from here.

So yes, I am still with him. For now. Probably not for long though. I am hanging on by a thread.

[jeffrey12]

what confuses me is that in my instance i was always the one who was forced to hang on a thread even though i tried to offer nothing but love and assistance for the thread to be cut in half by the person with BPD..

in reality it should of been the other way around.. loyalty in this day and age and most importantly in BPD relationships seems to be non existant on their behalf.. what a shame because mine was a nice woman but couldn't control herself at all on occasions

[Easydoesitnow]

In the beginning. I was hoping to meet someone I could form a strong partnership with and possibly marry.  I have 2 children and I would have been prepared to have more if my new partner had wanted that.  He said he wanted the same.

In the end, I dropped all expectations which dramatically improved our r/s, but I was not willing to drop my two main expectations, sexual exclusivity and respectful communication.  They are two things I could not accept.

 Although my exbf says he never cheated, he always had a backup plan and acted on it within hours of our many breakups.  Phone sex, online sex, prostitutes, swinger, gay saunas, online dating, bar-hopping, pole dancers, cracking on to friends...he tried everything.  If I mentioned how important sexual exclusivity was to me, it would trigger a breakup and acting out. 

He is 48.  I could not see how this behaviour was in line with my hopes/ expectations.  In the end, he dumped me.

[PDQuick]

what confuses me is that in my instance i was always the one who was forced to hang on a thread even though i tried to offer nothing but love and assistance for the thread to be cut in half by the person with BPD..

in reality it should of been the other way around.. loyalty in this day and age and most importantly in BPD relationships seems to be non existant on their behalf.. what a shame because mine was a nice woman but couldn't control herself at all on occasions

I'm glad you posted Jeffrey.

The reason for NC, is so that we can start the process of releasing the emotional hold our brains have on the situation, so our logic can take back over, and allow us to be able to solve these situations. Because of our emotions, we start having very twisted, and illogical thoughts. Its part of the ongoing drama that defines these relationships.

Jeffrey, I hope that you take this in the spirit it is given. I once had the exact same mind set you currently have, and it wasn't until I started therapy, and my therapist took a stance with me, that I started seeing the light in all of this.

i was always the one who was forced to hang on a thread

This is the magic statement. You honestly think, as did I, that you are being forced to endure these things, and that she is doing all of these things to you. To quote a great song "I would do anything for love."

This is a victim's statement. And, this is where it gets hard. You say that you are forced to hang on by a thread. Who is forcing you? Is there a gun muzzle against your head? Are your legs and hands shackled?

To finish the song... "But I won't do that."

Over time, hopefully, you will see that you have a desire to be loved, which is perfectly normal. Where the disconnect is, is that you seem to have the view of yourself that you will put yourself through anything, no matter how damaging, to hold on to anything that resembles love, even if it is damaging to you, and your life.

Stripping all of the emotions out of your situation, you have chosen to stay in a relationship that causes you much pain, because you would rather ride that out, because you either do not like any other options in front of you, or you have no confidence in your own ability to improve your life, and give yourself what you need. Either way, you are putting yourself through this. She isn't.

If your desire is to live, and not be hit by a bus, you will not reside in a street. You will look both ways when entering a road. You will take every precaution to stay out of a street, unless you absolutely have to, and when you do, you will be very alert when doing so.

But, you have somehow given being loved precedence over anything, and chasing it has led you into the street many times. Even though your choice of a partner has proven herself time and time again to distract you, and has allowed yourself to put yourself in the street, in harms way, you still chase that person. All for what? That is the question you really desire to be answered.

If your eyes were open to the situation at hand, you would see that this woman isn't doing anything to you that you aren't allowing her to do. All of this stuff is being perpetuated by you. By allowing yourself to stay in the relationship, and choosing to chase her, you are not being kind and loving toward yourself.

If a new car is your desire, you tend not to look in junkyards. If it is love you desire, you can give anyone a chance, but, when they show you that they can't love you for who you are, and what you are, and be kind, and compassionate, you have to love yourself enough to set them free. You, like I, have over-invested in something that didn't prove itself to be what we needed, and we rode that stock all of the way into the ground. Was it the stocks fault? No, it was ours, for over-investing in something that we wanted to succeed, rather than what proved to us that it would succeed. The proof is in the pudding, the misery is in the mud. You and I my friend, mistook the mud for pudding.

Whether you realize this or not, but the above perceptions are the best ones to have because you and I, we can change ourselves. We have no hope in hell of changing our partners. But, we can figure out the reasons that we under value ourselves to the point of putting ourselves through this all. Trust me, there is a reason there.

The reason that you are thinking about her all of the time, is because your brain is searching for answers. It is digging for a solution. As every minute passes, it gets revved up more, because it can't find a piece to solve the puzzle. Problem is, is that it is looking for an answer in her, when it should be looking for an answer to a different question inside of you. It was on the wrong road. If you read this post, you should start steering yourself back home, and focus it on yourself, because the answer lies within.

I speak of all of this out of experience Jeffrey, I have been there, and I know exactly what you are going through.

I hope you don't think this is too harsh, but it really is what you need to hear, as I needed to hear it. I hope it changes your life as it did mine. Good luck my brother, and I hope to hear good things out of you.  

[PDQuick]

In the beginning. I was hoping to meet someone I could form a strong partnership with and possibly marry.  I have 2 children and I would have been prepared to have more if my new partner had wanted that.  He said he wanted the same.

In the end, I dropped all expectations which dramatically improved our r/s, but I was not willing to drop my two main expectations, sexual exclusivity and respectful communication.  They are two things I could not accept.

 Although my exbf says he never cheated, he always had a backup plan and acted on it within hours of our many breakups.  Phone sex, online sex, prostitutes, swinger, gay saunas, online dating, bar-hopping, pole dancers, cracking on to friends...he tried everything.  If I mentioned how important sexual exclusivity was to me, it would trigger a breakup and acting out. 

He is 48.  I could not see how this behaviour was in line with my hopes/ expectations.  In the end, he dumped me.

How are you doing with this now Easydoesitnow?

[PDQuick]

I learned to neutralize my expectations a while back. I realized this marriage could never be what I want it to be a couple years ago.

Then I was led to this site, and found out WHY it likely could never be what I want it to be.

So yes, I am at a place of sad acceptance. And I don't like the view from here.

So yes, I am still with him. For now. Probably not for long though. I am hanging on by a thread.

How do you feel about it all now Azmomm2? Do you struggle with it, or have you accepted it, and can understand your own emotions?

[PDQuick]

Maybe unconsciously I thought that setting expectations would  always 'scare them off' right in the beginning, or rather, before there even was a 'beginning'.

I realize now that it is better to be completely alone than to live like this. 

Your post made me laugh. Only because I had some of this as well. I was a door mat at times. 

I had a problem with expectations, looking back. I had some that I had formed long before I should have. And, then, when they weren't met, I fought, and fought hard, to have them met. Kind like demanding that the horn honk when I pressed the window up button. 

Now, I have demands that I need to have met, from the get go. I demand to be respected by my mate, and I demand courtesy. Expectations are now formed by what I see in the relationship. If you show me a consistent thing, I start to expect it. My expectations are based upon a pattern of behavior established by the people around me.

Haven written that, I guess I demand consistency. 

Expectations and demands are very healthy in relationships, and need to be there. Where we sometimes get messed up, is that when they aren't met, we let them go, because we value the person in front of us, or what they do for us, more than what our expectations and demands are.

Do you think you didn't have these things because you gave them up, or did you not ever have them? If not, why not?

[Easydoesitnow]

PD, to be absolutely honest,

I am 21 days NC.  After he told me he didn't see himself in a r/ s with me again, I told him that I accepted that, And that I was deleting him from my fb and would not be in contact in the near future.  He wanted a friendship.  I didn't see any value to me in me propping him up emotionally while he looked for a better offer even though he said that was not his intention.  He said he needed to work on his issues and could not do that in a r/ s.  I didn't really believe that,  I thought it sounded like an excuse.   My reaction was totally different to other times when I had tried to fix and change things and to engage him.  I felt it was his turn to do something.  Or not.

I am doing ok but really really sad and disappointed.  I am trying to focus on work, I am back at uni, I have a lot going on socially and I am enjoying my family.  I miss his company deeply.  I worry about him.  I love him dearly.

To be honest, I hope he has a change if heart and has the strength to work things out do that we can function in a healthier way.  I feel that I have developed a lot of understanding and acceptance but my two non-negotiables are still non-negotiable.   I am hopeful, but realistically, I probably should not be.

[Easydoesitnow]

He told me that he thinks he could be monogamous...if he was in a good r/ s...

That was not the correct answer...

[PDQuick]

I hear you Easydoesitnow. It may sound weird, but I'm really proud of you.    It is hard.

Now, one thing I did learn was this. Your emotions are your own. If you are happy, you are happy, not because of any given thing. You are just happy. When you are sad, you are sad, not because of any one given thing. You are just sad. There are several variables to these emotions, and they are usually internal, not tied to an outside source. I know this is kind of deep, but follow me here. The more you think about it, the more you understand it.

So, with that being said, the thoughts that you have will help dictate your mood, and your emotions. It's called "self talk".

What really worked for me was to grieve my emotions, not who I tied them to. For example, When I "missed her", I actually missed being close with someone. I missed having someone there to talk to. I missed having a feeling of closeness with another individual.

It does two things. First, it helps put things into perspective, and it breaks the ties of what you are actually missing, and the last person who supplied those things for you. There is a huge difference, and once you can make that disconnect, it allows you to let go of the last person who supplied those things, and sets you up to accept the next person who may.

[Easydoesitnow]

Thanks PD, that is great advice.  The trauma counsellor also told me to think of the strong feelings as a whole bunch of brain chemicals, rather than being related to a person.  Self discipline is hard though.  Sometimes I want to think of him even though it may bring hurt.

It's the 'for ever and ever' thoughts that choke me up...the absolutes...'he will never be back, never be any good, he never did love me'..etc etc...

[PDQuick]

Aw, I understand that too. But you know, that really good hitter in Baseball had a time in his life that he struck out. Practice, practice, practice.  

Those forever thoughts, yeah, they are hard too. I use to think about that, then trained myself to combat them by thinking of one thing that I encountered in the relationship that I didn't like that I also would never have again.  

[Easydoesitnow]

Aw, I understand that too. But you know, that really good hitter in Baseball had a time in his life that he struck out. Practice, practice, practice.  

Those forever thoughts, yeah, they are hard too. I use to think about that, then trained myself to combat them by thinking of one thing that I encountered in the relationship that I didn't like that I also would never have again.  

Now THAT is a very good idea.
Starting with...
Not having to be yelled at for making too much contact when I was responding to his requests for information...
Conversely, not having to worry that if he calls I have to respond immediately or pay the price...
Catching up with my friends without him making a scene because in some way they made him feel inadequate even though they tried really hard...
Not having to worry about where his next backup plan was coming from...
Having vacations without rage...
Generally enjoying life without rage...
Not having to worry about his excessive drinking and the trouble it would get him.in to...
Not having to listen to details of his latest nasty argument with a workmates or friend...
Enjoying my family life without worrying that he will be upset that he is not getting my full attention...
Having to put on a brave face to his friends and family knowing that he had told them all my genuine shortcomings and added a few extra ones as well...
Not having to go to the hospital in the middle of the night because he was having an anxiety attack again...
Enjoying uni without worrying that my study will make him feel inadequate...
Not having to wonder if he just told me that thing because he actually is gay, not just 'curious' as he claimed...
Not being called a prude because I didn't want to talk any more about that previous thing that he just told me...
Not having to worry about the fact that he seems reliant on over the counter medications...
Not having to hear that 'I haven't been taking my antidepressants'...like...as if I couldn't tell...
Not having to worry about his finances because he just bought a $400 k apartment on impulse, which he couldn't afford, because he didn't have a job, then he got a job, but lost it because he couldn't get along with anyone, then spent $3500 in one night getting a young pole dancer to sleep in his bed...then told me MY financial problems upset him when I have more money and a stable income...

That should be enough...for starters...

[o2bz14u]

What really worked for me was to grieve my emotions, not who I tied them to. For example, When I "missed her", I actually missed being close with someone. I missed having someone there to talk to. I missed having a feeling of closeness with another individual.

Thank you for that insight. I just had another one of those "Ding Ding Ding" moments. Now I have something to fall back on and to help me THINK things through rationally, knowing what is really going on when I feel those things.

Not having to be yelled at for making too much contact when I was responding to his requests for information...
Conversely, not having to worry that if he calls I have to respond immediately or pay the price...
Catching up with my friends without him making a scene..
*and all the rest*.

Good lord, you know my BF. .

As of right now...I've had two days of peace without him around, and already I am starting to have some calm moments where the stress seems to be melting away  (interspersed with some waves of anxiety still of course).


I am going to try to go completely  NC  soon, (he does not know yet) and I am very afraid of a backlash.
My appointment with the women's DV center is tomorrow, and I hope I can get to it without him finding out about it and trying to stop me. I hope they can help me get out of this nightmare with some good advice that is pertinent to my specific  geographical area. I may have to know how to get a restraining order and such and such, and learn the tricks in the law that could be used against me. Laws vary from country to country, and state to state, even city to city, so I know I cannot get specifics here on this board. I do appreciate immenesly all the support and advice I've received here.



.

[jeffrey12]

PDQuick:

your correct we were not forced but in my case it was my first serious relationship even though i had a past with other women but never cared. this time round i did and she went through some personal issues of herself and together we overcame them. i just expected an element of respect from her as opposed to an all out bitter renegade against me.

i chose to stay in the relationship for good or for bad. i saw a very good side of her but also a very bad side. i believed that it couldn't get worse but the 'love' she had for me would overcome her disorder and she would potentially seek therapy. that didn't happen she lost feelings for me in her words because of the arguing and stress that was taking place which overwhelmed her. problems she caused which led her to break up with me.. fantastic. but the ruthlessness came when she found it so easy to move on straight after i was grieving the relationship like a person should do. makes me feel that i was the only one in 'love' even though she was the one painting the image..

she did love me i somehow believe. she just had her own way of showing it in a BPD way but in the same way whether this is right or wrong the BPD caused her to hate me. people might tell me that she lost feelings towards you or attraction which could possibly be the case but in the way it was done where one up until the break up yes we were arguing regularly but she also maintained her stance to always be together, never let her go, and argued with me over jealousies and insecurities with thoughts of me and other women. day by day i'm beginning to understand that the relationship was more bad than good but it doesn't take away the feelings that i've got for her.. one side of me wants her to be happy but another side of me gets jealous and anxious if she was to seek therapy to progress her newly found BF.

Stripping all of the emotions out of your situation, you have chosen to stay in a relationship that causes you much pain, because you would rather ride that out, because you either do not like any other options in front of you, or you have no confidence in your own ability to improve your life, and give yourself what you need. Either way, you are putting yourself through this. She isn't.

i'd love to strip all the emotions away because it would make my life 50 times easier. i'm not going through depression far from that but i get moments where i think WTH has happened, why, from that to this etc... there's a ocean full of women out their for me no question about that i don't lack confidence and i'm a good person, got a sense of humour and i'm moderately good looking BUT doesn't change the fact that i have strong feelings for her. she left at the point i felt most vulnerable and maybe at the point she loved me the most so in return for me to not 'further hurt her' as she used to put it she ran a million miles.

your analogy is spot on but with emotions involved it's not the same. i'm not a romance but i'm a believer for taking a bullet for the one you love but this time round it's her who's pulled out the gun and shot the bullet and that's where the betrayal kicks in.. i'm causing all this 'upset' on myself i know that but i wasn't technically the cause. i just felt that a partner wouldn't want to act like this to a person they 'put on a peddle stool'. their actions always contradict themselves but their actions are caused because of their need of you but the same actions are done to get rid of you..

when they show you that they can't love you for who you are, and what you are, and be kind, and compassionate, you have to love yourself enough to set them free.

agreed. how can they love you for the person that you are but then again hate the same person..?

Was it the stocks fault? No, it was ours, for over-investing in something that we wanted to succeed, rather than what proved to us that it would succeed. The proof is in the pudding, the misery is in the mud. You and I my friend, mistook the mud for pudding.

this is very true..!

the problem does lie within me as things stand now. i just expected a bit more respect and loyalty which i didn't get that has sent me and my ego and my feelings of-coarse.

thanks for your long reply  

[jeffrey12]

PDQuick:

i've noted down below some questions that i've got in my mind.

1) is it a known scenario that a person with BPD initiates chatting a person up but also 4-5 weeks down the line of dating is that one that also initiates making you their partner?

2) from what i've read it's a known fact that a person with BPD takes on board traits of the non. i felt at times that i was dating myself . why do they end up hating the same traits of the non that they fell in love with?

3) push and pull is widely used by a person with borderline in their relationships. in my experience when my exGF felt lonely at home when i wasn't around she would pick for an argument. whether it was accusing me of cheating, ignoring her, or forgetting about her when i was around my friends. she would want my 110% attention. whats the general reasoning a person with BPD has to do this?

4) when she felt abandoned she would argue. i believe the more she fell in love the more she felt i could abandon her. is it norm for them to break off a relationship when they feel they are most vulnerable..?

5) they expect a ridiculous amount of reassurance and consolidation because of their lack of self worth, jealousies and insecurities. in my experience she would argue about something and i'd spend hours on end reassuring her. if i didn't she would believer her made up philosophies and paint me black if i did reassure her which i was doing a hell of a lot towards the end she 'packed her bags' and left the relationship because it was too stressful overwhelming that caused her to lose feelings..

6) do BPDs generally mean what they say. when they say i love you, want to have kids with you, could never be with another person apart from you, wouldn't be able to survive if we broke up blah blah blah.. how could they 'feel' this then one day randomly after arguing they cause break off the relationship and go NC and paint you black and move on so quick. please explain to me by applying some BPD thought process into if possible how this happens


i know a lot of people with BPD tend to have affairs etc. my ex didn't cheat on me i'm 99% sure of that and didn't look elsewhere in the relationship. her actions and words proved her philosophy.

thanks PDQuick in advance