Hole in my Soul

[Think About It....]

Hi all,

The following is also posted in the thread "When therapy is invalidating to a child" posted by JustSaying. It is buried 3 pages in, so I thought I would bring it closer to the top here. My d14 is in therapy too but it is in fact validating because it is not with my uBPDw.  I am looking more for your thoughts on the choice I have made to remove her from the invalidating environment in my home.

As some may recall, I made arrangements to have my d14 stay with friends to get away from the tension and hostility re my uBPDw.  My daughter in fact left the house on two occasions before the arrangement - to get away from the raging/fighting.  It was such a heads up boundary setting thing that I am in full support of.  Unlike JustSayings situation though, my daughter has been the subject of many of my W's rages, and then also a target of the "silent rages" that are more commonly called "silent treatment".  And she has been taking it full force since my older daughters have moved out.

I meet with d14 on Thursdays now to have a quick dinner out before I take her to her piano lesson.  She is a very accomplished artistic person - and even at 14 is truly a person already - in music, drawing, photography and writing.  She is still suffering though - not eating properly and takes medication for "tremors".  We have thoughtful discussions, building on the text and phone  contact we have throughout the rest of the week. She is very forthright about how she is feeling, thinks she may be suffering depression.  Talks about not having friends, but at the same time says she's not so worried about that.  She is actually in weekly one on one counselling sessions with a govt provided T, and is participating in "group" with other kids in similar situations, although yesterday complained that these kids were really much more "messed up" than she.  

Her friends mother commented yesterday when I picked her up that the only problem was that d14 is too shy about asking for things.  D14 later told me how things just "appear" (like lunch and personal need items) even when she just mentions it to her friend.  Bottom line is it is a much more nurturing environment.  I told her not to feel guilty about that. If we don't return the favour directly, we will be able to "pay it forward" somehow.  

Last night over our hamburgers, I told her I would not ask her to return to the house until she was ready and until my W would be able to look her in the eye when she says hello.  And I won't.  I miss her terribly, her piano playing is such a joy, I am guilt ridden over the situation, I worry about her school work as she is an honour roll student. Given my W's BPD, I am not holding my breath that my daughter will ever come back.  

Things are "better" with my uBPDw, however, probably partially because she has all but cut off contact with my daughters and I have completely stepped back from trying to parent her not in school, not working, driverlicenceless, out from 2pm to 2am, nearly s18 son.  (BTW, I am fairly  certain that most of the animosity that my W has for my d14 is a projection of her frustration around her son. She just got out of bed at 1100 pm to drive 25 miles to pick him up and bring him home from hanging out with friends).  But I am also validating, detaching, and boundary setting like mad, and getting quite good at it.

While her intimacy issues are still a big thing, my W now regularly walks over to me in the kitchen, before she goes to work, picking up the breakfast and lunch I make for her, and GIVES ME A KISS! Our sex life has improved as well, although "real" intimacy in the bedroom and elsewhere is still very weak.  We don't fight anymore.  When we disagree, she or I drop it soon, and don't discuss it afterwards.  So I remain hopeful/delusional about change on her end.  

But there's a hole opening up in my soul around my d14 not being at home, and as hard as I try not to, the detachment from BPDw's emotions is causing me to detach from mine.   I love her just the same, although I am starting to perceive it from a sad rather than a joyous  perspective.  

Thoughts?

[tuum est61]

Hi all,

The following is also posted in the thread "When therapy is invalidating to a child" posted by JustSaying. It is buried 3 pages in, so I thought I would bring it closer to the top here. My d14 is in therapy too but it is in fact validating because it is not with my uBPDw.  I am looking more for your thoughts on the choice I have made to remove her from the invalidating environment in my home.

As some may recall, I made arrangements to have my d14 stay with friends to get away from the tension and hostility re my uBPDw.  My daughter in fact left the house on two occasions before the arrangement - to get away from the raging/fighting.  It was such a heads up boundary setting thing that I am in full support of.  Unlike JustSayings situation though, my daughter has been the subject of many of my W's rages, and then also a target of the "silent rages" that are more commonly called "silent treatment".  And she has been taking it full force since my older daughters have moved out.

I meet with d14 on Thursdays now to have a quick dinner out before I take her to her piano lesson.  She is a very accomplished artistic person - and even at 14 is truly a person already - in music, drawing, photography and writing.  She is still suffering though - not eating properly and takes medication for "tremors".  We have thoughtful discussions, building on the text and phone  contact we have throughout the rest of the week. She is very forthright about how she is feeling, thinks she may be suffering depression.  Talks about not having friends, but at the same time says she's not so worried about that.  She is actually in weekly one on one counselling sessions with a govt provided T, and is participating in "group" with other kids in similar situations, although yesterday complained that these kids were really much more "messed up" than she.  

Her friends mother commented yesterday when I picked her up that the only problem was that d14 is too shy about asking for things.  D14 later told me how things just "appear" (like lunch and personal need items) even when she just mentions it to her friend.  Bottom line is it is a much more nurturing environment.  I told her not to feel guilty about that. If we don't return the favour directly, we will be able to "pay it forward" somehow.  

Last night over our hamburgers, I told her I would not ask her to return to the house until she was ready and until my W would be able to look her in the eye when she says hello.  And I won't.  I miss her terribly, her piano playing is such a joy, I am guilt ridden over the situation, I worry about her school work as she is an honour roll student. Given my W's BPD, I am not holding my breath that my daughter will ever come back.  

Things are "better" with my uBPDw, however, probably partially because she has all but cut off contact with my daughters and I have completely stepped back from trying to parent her not in school, not working, driverlicenceless, out from 2pm to 2am, nearly s18 son.  (BTW, I am fairly  certain that most of the animosity that my W has for my d14 is a projection of her frustration around her son. She just got out of bed at 1100 pm to drive 25 miles to pick him up and bring him home from hanging out with friends).  But I am also validating, detaching, and boundary setting like mad, and getting quite good at it.

While her intimacy issues are still a big thing, my W now regularly walks over to me in the kitchen, before she goes to work, picking up the breakfast and lunch I make for her, and GIVES ME A KISS! Our sex life has improved as well, although "real" intimacy in the bedroom and elsewhere is still very weak.  We don't fight anymore.  When we disagree, she or I drop it soon, and don't discuss it afterwards.  So I remain hopeful/delusional about change on her end.  

But there's a hole opening up in my soul around my d14 not being at home, and as hard as I try not to, the detachment from BPDw's emotions is causing me to detach from mine.   I love her just the same, although I am starting to perceive it from a sad rather than a joyous  perspective.  

Thoughts?

[JustSaying]

As clarification, your W is not your D's mother, right? D is yours from prior marriage, and S is your wife's from a prior marriage, if I recall, and about 18 and not living in the house with you?

[tuum est61]

As clarification, your W is not your D's mother, right? D is yours from prior marriage, and S is your wife's from a prior marriage, if I recall, and about 18 and not living in the house with you?

D14 is mine, s17 is hers.  W and I have been married 5 1/2 years.  S17 still here but more like a ghost given his 2pm to 2 am social "schedule". 

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[JustSaying]

Thoughts?

It's an indelicate question, but I haven't thought of another way to ask. The behavioral problems are W's. Yet D's the one to have moved. And you see her once a week for a quick dinner and drive to lessons. How likely or unlikely is it that D14 is feeling abandoned, as though you chose your wife of five years over her?

[tuum est61]

JustSaying,

No worries about "indelicate" questions  or comments. Its what we need to do
here.  The alienation that results from my W's  practices extends to my d20 and d19 , my parents, my brother, and sister as well.  My W's behaviour towards them has caused withdrawal on their part and so my W declares they obviously all hate her.  

Yesterday while watching TV, my wife declared "That's d14 in a couple of years", referring to a 16 year old girl who seduced an older man. I didnt spend any time validating that - I was too angry.  I left with our dogs to the park and told her that she had "gone way over the line" and I wanted an apology. I didn't actually expect to get one, but about an hour later, my W texted "Sorry." That's a pretty big deal for her. We went on to have a good evening when I returned an hour later.

 Re my choice not to validate, my daughter had gone through a stage 4 months ago where she was making inappropriate contact with older boys (17 year old) in another city on line.  So there was some truth behind my W's nasty words. We did manage to reverse that - as much as I can confirm, but in far too invalidating way by my W - with me packing a whole lot of fleas. For me, my daughters behaviour was driven by being 14, but also because she was in a hostile home environment.

Notwithstanding ss17 has dropped out of school, does not work, and treats his mother like a doormat, I have made a big effort - and a genuine one - to step back from parenting  ss17 during the time d14 had been away. Although the contact is limited, I have conversations with him about safe topics, which with him is typically about cars.  He gets his licence back in a month or so if he gets all his tickets paid. To my W's credit, she is saying she will not pay his tickets; or buy his insurance or gas like we did before - he WILL have to have a job t pay for that. I have had no disagreements with him despite most of what he says is truly just bs about getting work, having a vehicle, etc. I have similarly stopped "advising" my W on what we/she/he should be doing.

I guess I am hoping she will "notice" this change in me re her son, and it will change how she talks about/treats my daughter. When my W asks about the situation of my daughter staying elsewhere - which IS apparently weighing on her - probably because it REFELECTS on her externally - I simply tell her I don't think it is a sustainable situation for me or d14 and I would like to talk about it. At this point she is still saying "There's no need to talk.".

So I wait, knowing full well some risk of my d14 feeling abandoned, but know she is in a nurturing safe environment at least.  In am being more up front on discussing the situation with her than I could ever be with her at home. I will follow up with her counsellor this coming week.  I am looking at the current arrangement as temporary - I figured it would be several weeks. It's been 4. I am starting to get impatient, yes.

Other than departure on my part, which of course is the solution recommended by the one  friend I have confided in, I am looking for thoughts on my strategy from someone who is living with a BPD partner who's rages have extended to the children - blended family or otherwise.  

[KateCat]

I should probably not blunder into this discussion, but these two paragraphs particularly caught my eye:

Yesterday while watching TV, my wife declared "That's d14 in a couple of years", referring to a 16 year old girl who seduced an older man. I didnt spend any time validating that - I was too angry.  I left with our dogs to the park and told her that she had "gone way over the line" and I wanted an apology. I didn't actually expect to get one, but about an hour later, my W texted "Sorry." That's a pretty big deal for her. We went on to have a good evening when I returned an hour later.

 Re my choice not to validate, my daughter had gone through a stage 4 months ago where she was making inappropriate contact with older boys (17 year old) in another city on line.  So there was some truth behind my W's nasty words. We did manage to reverse that - as much as I can confirm, but in far too invalidating way by my W - with me packing a whole lot of fleas. For me, my daughters behaviour was driven by being 14, but also because she was in a hostile home environment.

Isn't there some research to suggest that young girls most in danger of seeking inappropriate male contact are those without a strong and validating paternal presence in their lives? Haven't you mentioned too that your three daughters' biological mother surrendered custody to you some time ago and that she has not been a constant support in their life? And now a relationship with a step-mother has proven painful enough to drive the youngest daughter from the home? 

I would think this girl would be terribly vulnerable right now. I think she needs her father.

And because this is a BPD-flavored discussion, I also wonder how this situation is working for your wife. Even if she is not openly exhibiting shame over driving your daughter away, do you see signs that she too is distressed by this arrangement?

[tuum est61]

KateCat,

Thanks so much for responding.  The replies to this post have been a little sparse.  

I should probably not blunder into this discussion, but these two paragraphs particularly caught my eye:

Isn't there some research to suggest that young girls most in danger of seeking inappropriate male contact are those without a strong and validating paternal presence in their lives? Haven't you mentioned too that your three daughters' biological mother surrendered custody to you some time ago and that she has not been a constant support in their life? And now a relationship with a step-mother has proven painful enough to drive the youngest daughter from the home?  

I would think this girl would be terribly vulnerable right now. I think she needs her father.

Yes, she needs her father.  On one hand, I feel I am "not there" for her, but on the other hand, I am not forcing her to be in the invalidating environment.  I am trying to be as close to her as I can and check back with her.  

And because this is a BPD-flavored discussion, I also wonder how this situation is working for your wife. Even if she is not openly exhibiting shame over driving your daughter away, do you see signs that she too is distressed by this arrangement?

Is this working for my wife?   Yes, it is but I do think she is distressed by the arrangement - beyond what people think of her.  When she was off at the bathroom during the breakfast out with her Dad and his long time common law wife on Sunday, she came back and caught the tail end of the conversation where I said "d14 is doing okay" (with the arrangement) to which she said "It's NOT okay!"   But she offers up NOTHING.  As I said in my original post, she does NOT want to talk about it.  

Since since we can't talk about it, I guess I am hoping at this point for an external influence - perhaps from her family as they find out that d14 is not at home, or perhaps from my d14's counsellors?  Am I in the FOG here?   ?  How does one get out of this chose your wife or chose your children dilemma?  Therapeutic separation or separation of any stripe?  

[argyle]

Well...can't control your wife. So...
(a) Congratulations, this is not acceptable to me...I'm getting a divorce.
(b) X days a week, D14 and I will be staying elsewhere.

--Argyle

[KateCat]

It's great you are asking for feedback on this delicate issue.  I'm not a parent, but based purely on watching a bundle of Dr. Phil shows on issues of this sort ;p , I think:

1) You need to take the lead.
2) This situation is not tenable for long.
3) Your wife has to be feeling shame. She has to fear judgment from others.
4) If this goes on too long, your relationship with your wife will not survive the hole in your heart.
5) This is a "lose-lose" situation for everyone, even for your troubled 17-year-old stepson.

Have you spoken with a counselor specifically about what to do in this difficult situation? This sounds to me like too great a burden for you to bear alone, without professional guidance.  

ADDED: Or, alternately, what argyle, an actual parent, just said . . . .

[tuum est61]

KC,

Thank you so much for your thoughts.

I have been thinking my next step is to seek counselling, as you have suggested.

It wont be on my W's BPD - many counsellors cant/won't buy into that anyway. It will be specifically about what to do re my d14.

I stopped counselling 2 years ago when my wife "found out" and because my counsellor essentially told me I should just leave. That was before I knew of BPD. Going into counselling now with the knowledge of BPD should give me a fresh perspective. I have set boundaries around actions I need to take re my kids welfare so I honestly don't care what my W says or does re me getting help from a therapist.

I wonder what Dr Phils take on BPD is? 

[tuum est61]

Well...can't control your wife. So...
(a) Congratulations, this is not acceptable to me...I'm getting a divorce.
(b) X days a week, D14 and I will be staying elsewhere.

--Argyle

Yep, the ultimate boundary.  It may be what I need to do. Do you have any more specific rationale other than "kids first and foremost - your personal needs must be sacrificed". ?

I figure I should read the book on "splitting" (the other splitting) with a BPD and consult my lawyer,  get copies of our files while completing our tax returns (2010 and 2011) and get my personal stuff out  first.    Any speculation on how my W will react?  She has been the dumper in all three of her major previous relationships. I wonder how she will handle being a dumpee?  

[JustSaying]

Any more specifics other than "kids first and foremost - your personal needs must be sacrificed?

Never once saw it as a choice between kid and personal needs. Only ever saw it as preserving the best family I could. X, judging by her behavior, had a different vision of family than I did.

[argyle]

Well, I'd tend to try to balance harms/benefits.
Current situation:
1. Terrible harm to your daughter - just imagine having your father write you off for a mentally ill woman.
2. Harm to you.
3. Balanced, presumably, by benefits from BPD R/S.  In my experience, for people in the 'staying' camp, staying in the R/S is usually marginally better than going.  And, not enough to balance the harm being inflicted on your daughter.

Divorce:
1. No harm to daughter.
2. Some harm to you.
3. Significant harm to wife.  But, less than you'd expect.  BPDs suffer in R/S.

Net - much better.

Spending time with daughter without wife
1. Greatly lessened harm to daughter
2. Probably some net benefit to you. (depending on how abusive your wife is...)
3. Some harm to wife.  Depending on how jealous she is, possibly larger than #3. (Just judging by my BPDw's jealousy issues.)

Net - probably comparable to the divorce option.

Overall, if you put reasonable weights on these issues, the current situation appears to be highly damaging.  My approach, assuming I wanted to stay, would be to spend several days weekly with D14 without wife and explain that wife is mentally ill.  If wife couldn't accept that, she'd get the door.

That said, my gut rationale probably comes down to...
'I don't put up with people f*king with my children. Anyone being consistently hostile to my child will be lucky if I let them run.' There are a lot of other acceptable responses and views on the situation, I suppose. Unfortunately, my personal blinders aren't really letting me see them.

--Argyle

[Had enough!]

I'll be a little blunt.   I think you are severely in the fog where your 14yo daughter is concerned. The reality is that you allowed your wife to run off your daughter.  Your 14yo daughter that does not have another parent to go to.  That is shameful. When you signed up for fatherhood, it was an 18 year commitment. A 14yo is very vulnerable, especially when she has no stable parent to love and parent her.  How does a woman rate higher to you than your own teen daughter?  If your wife doesn't want your daughter at her house, you should considered living separately from your wife, with your daughter at least until your daughter goes off to college. I really don't understand your priority here.  One day you will find out just how deeply hurt your d14 is and it will not be pretty.  It's really hard to respect a parent who sends a child off to live with others so the parent can keep his wife happy.

HE

[argyle]

That said, I do understand the tendency to accommodate the BPD in your life. I think we've all gradually bent over the years - one way or another. Y'know, for a long period, I saw my family less than I would have otherwise.  (Admittedly - that translated into Christmas and Thanksgiving instead of including Easter and birthdays.) I believe that that tendency here is serving your daughter pretty poorly. (As, for instance, my tendency to keep the peace by accepting verbal, and then physical beatings... )

--Argyle

[KateCat]

maligned1,

You asked above whether you are in the FOG, and I would have to agree that you are. I won't batter you by dredging up numerous examples, but I've noticed that you often describe yourself as "brazen" when you take a phone call from your daughter at an inconvenient time or otherwise interact with the world at large. Here's a single example from two days ago:

"I brazenly go for a beer on my own with work colleagues or even by myself while waiting for my daughters piano lesson to finish.  I visit my daughters."

I'm pretty, pretty, pretty sure that when you come out of the fog, you will not see visiting your daughters as a brazen act of self-assertion.

If you're still reading and contemplating these painful responses to your question, then you can turn this around. You can do it!

[tog]

I don't think it is ever easy to leave a relationship, dysfunctional or not. But from what I hear about living with someone with a PD, it's even harder to leave them because of the FOG.

I guess I too have to ask: how have you come to accept that your wife is alienating you from all of your daughters? And they aren't even HERS, so her only motivation could be control, to have you all to yourself. She is also telling you that you cannot see a counselor?

My SO reports that his NPD/BPDstbx tried to isolate him from everyone. He had to say he was going to work late in order to see his friends on the sly or take a ride on his motorcycle for fun. He wasn't allowed to nap lest she attack him and call him lazy like her father. He was a prisoner in lots of ways (too long to explain) and he gave in to learned helplessness. He says now that if she had not had an affair (his ultimate dealbreaker), he might still be there out of inertia.

When we first got together, he would thank me for things like "letting him take a nap" that used to leave me scratching my head, until I began to understand what he had been through.

You deserve better and your daughters most certainly do. I hope you will find the courage to make changes for yourself and them.

[KateCat]

Tog makes the great point that this is very difficult and that your ordeal has been shared by other men--one of whom she's seen up close and personal.

And just for additional confirmation that you're not alone: In the years I've been reading FtF I can remember at least three other male forum members who have found themselves completely estranged from their daughters at their wife's insistence. They probably never imagined this would happen to them either.

Perhaps there is a biological imperative for borderline women to drive the male partner's children from the nest, meanwhile feathering it plushly for their own offspring. Whatever the case, I'm confident you will find the courage to bring your daughter home, to wherever "home" will be for you and your girls.

[DreamGirl]

Just because she thinks it has to be "them" or "her" doesn't make it true.

It's hard for those of us on the "other side" who think it's a no brainer. Leave your wife and all your problems are over.

I have a firm belief in that your kids are your first responsibility. Your marriage is your first priority. I think that these two concepts very much can co-exist.

I also think that you are suffering from a pretty extreme case of what about 70% of stepfamilies go thru.

There are ways to reduce the conflict, validate the mentally ill wife, and set boundaries within the household. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. You've enabled your wife quite a bit in the past. She's responding well to your time outs and verbal communication. There is hope.  

MY suggestion is to get counseling for yourself. First. You need to sort thru these ideas in your head with an objective person. I sense some depression(?)... "hole in my soul" is a very poetic way of telling me that there is an emptiness and sadness in your own heart. Coupling that with the codependent tendecies (and the infamous FOG) can leave your head reeling a little bit. Get yourself right before making these life changing decisions has always been my mantra.

FWIW my grumpy husband was quite relieved when we decided that my oldest son was no longer his problem... or his concern. Zero expectations from either of them to be in any kind of (step)parent/child role. My son needs to respect the other adult in the home, but he's my kid. I get to decide. And they have a common interest that involves a ball and a glove. That is the extent of their relationship.    

And it's OK.

Your expectations might be hindering you here. (Of them ever having a relationship with your wife). It's not ideal, but I know several families that "tolerate" a stepparent... because it comes with the marriage to the bio-parent. It is what it is.

You want to stay married. You want to have your daughter live with you. Two expectations that I personally think should be the goal of your therapy. It's really common in the stepparenting world. Teenagers are particularily difficult to deal with in this world as well. You really are expereincing some pretty normal stuff, just exasperated by the BPD individual.

You have your work cut out for you... but all things are possible.     

[tuum est61]

I'll be a little blunt.   I think you are severely in the fog where your 14yo daughter is concerned. The reality is that you allowed your wife to run off your daughter.  Your 14yo daughter that does not have another parent to go to.  That is shameful. When you signed up for fatherhood, it was an 18 year commitment. A 14yo is very vulnerable, especially when she has no stable parent to love and parent her.  How does a woman rate higher to you than your own teen daughter?  If your wife doesn't want your daughter at her house, you should considered living separately from your wife, with your daughter at least until your daughter goes off to college. I really don't understand your priority here.  One day you will find out just how deeply hurt your d14 is and it will not be pretty.  It's really hard to respect a parent who sends a child off to live with others so the parent can keep his wife happy.

HE

Wow!  No sympathy for the devil here - whether that be BPD, my uBPDw! Or CoDme!  I asked for thoughts but I guess I am hoping they could be put more in the context of my W's BPD.

In defense of my efforts at fatherhood, note that I took full custody of my daughters 12 years ago,  - then 8, 6, and 2, when bio mom took off to chase Internet lovers - signing the separation papers granting me custody before she left. She did try to return but after many years of her infidelity in our 14 year relationship and 11 year marriage, I deferred.  I left my second partner of 5 years about 8 months after my daughters chose to leave and live with bio mom (my partners 25 year old son had moved in with us, bumping my youngest into the oldest's room) when the  dynamic of a mother who had already "raised" her kid now raising teen girls got to be too much for them.  When my daughters met my wife - the sweetest person they had ever met - they immediately left the violence and inconsistency they had been experiencing with their bio mom.  We all moved into my W's place together, my W and I married and we bought a house and started this journey as a blended family. BPD? Never heard of it.  And couldn't even have imagined it evn though I obviously dealt with many issues with my ex w and  2nd partner.  

My choice to have my daughter stay with friends is intended to be a temporary one while I try to come to terms with my W's mental illness that leads her to be hostile towards her intimate contacts. I am in regular phone and text contact as well as spending time with d14 re doctors appts and other needs.   I have told her that she should not come home until she feels it is right and that my W can look her in the eye and genuinely say hello.  I am not holding my breath but I am holding out for some potential changes due to influences from the outside (her family and friends as they find out about the current situation re my d14)  on my W.

As a sidebar, my W is quite overwhelmed in dealing with her seriously delinquent son as I mentioned. As I type this I stayed home to take him to take him to a dental appt to get a bridge to replace 5 lower teeth he lost in a biking accident 2 years ago. But he just finished an argument that he won on the phone with his Mom (at work)  that he didnt want to go. My W just called saying for me to cancel the appt, which I did. ( yeah mr CoD to the end - but I do respect our work ethic very much).  The interesting thing is that I have been told he won't get a job is due to the insecurity over his teeth. I was also just told that he has been threatening suicide for weeks - first time she has shared that. I also learned his girlfriend of 8 months dropped him last night (definitely saw that coming - don't know why she hung on this long), so now I am hanging out at home to be with him on an apparent suicide watch.  Since my daughter left, I have been working hard on NOT pushing him around job, school, and attitude, and am genuinely tryeating him differently.  My hope is my W will draw a comparison.  But no, I won't wait much longer.  

So given this further context, I hope I have earned a little respect as a father but I do thank you for your comments. They make me reexamine closely what choices I am making.