Lying part of BPD?

[Think About It...]

My BPDD is also an accomplished story teller. She was overindulged and none of her group of friends had reason to feel the least bit sorry for her. All their attention was going toward the girls who had real problems, so she learned that by spinning fictitious yarns, she could get some attention too. In addition to the inconsequential lies that she tells just to amuse herself, she likes to cast herself as the heroic victim, telling people she was abused so that they will sympathize with her. She also likes to take all the credit for things that we parents did for her, such as pay for her higher education and her new car and travel, etc.,. And she does it with no regard for the stress it heaps on her family and friends.

[Feathers]

My BPDD is also an accomplished story teller. She was overindulged and none of her group of friends had reason to feel the least bit sorry for her. All their attention was going toward the girls who had real problems, so she learned that by spinning fictitious yarns, she could get some attention too. In addition to the inconsequential lies that she tells just to amuse herself, she likes to cast herself as the heroic victim, telling people she was abused so that they will sympathize with her. She also likes to take all the credit for things that we parents did for her, such as pay for her higher education and her new car and travel, etc.,. And she does it with no regard for the stress it heaps on her family and friends.

[Reality]

Distorted Perception
Does this show how emotionally dysregulated they are?  Like crazily so.  Like beyond what I can imagine.
Is this distortion a result of social isolation?
My BPDs23 was always in a different world, some of the time.  I would call it almost a self-imposed trance state, a meditative state, an observer, a born outsider,
Yet, he loves people and he can be very kind and compassionate.  Hmmmmm...
Okay, back to distorted perception.  I know this might sound a bit over the top, but I try to make sense of what he is meaning when he says something that is off.  I ask questions.  I start with the presupposition that all behavior makes sense, which I believe deeply to be true.  So I act curious.
Sometimes I say ever so calmly and in an offhand way, " Oh, I thought you only worked for 2 weeks." (as opposed to 2 months).  Usually, he reflects and says something like, " Now that I think of it, yes, it was only 2 weeks, but I really did learn a lot and I sure worked harder than everyone else.". Ah ha!  The time exaggeration reflects the extreme effort that was required, not the actual facts.  Kind of like the notion of time, in the Old Testament, now that I think of it. 
The " I hate my brother." is " My brother is so successful and he has a steady girlfriend and so many credentials and he has very little time for me and I feel so sad that I don't see him often and I feel so badly that I never completed my schooling and my pain is so huge that ..."
We need to write a BPD language manual to translate the actual MEANING of the words and sentences used.  " I don't care." is " I care so much, I can't bear the pain even for one minute, so I am going to dissociate big-time, because then the pain disappears."
Reality

[Thursday]

There have been several threads on this board about lying and for me like the OP, it is very,very hard to take.

I don't know if my BPDSD20 has changed how much she lies. Now she is a year sober and seems to be much better regulated, AA having really helped her to examine her behavior. She really wants to be a healthier person. But I don't see her much and there isn't so much to lie about these days...

but she has lied to her Dad in the last six months, four times that we know about.

In the past her lying was incessant and had a compulsive quality although I would say that continuing to stick by an obvious, logically proven to be a lie lie, was the hardest thing for me to take.

She also began, at her worst, to swear on her deceased mother.

So, I am hoping that her new lifestyle, which is abundant in AA connections, as it has become her new social life, is finally a place where she feels necessary and useful and needed and wanted, where she doesn't have to worry about figuring out which clique she belongs to (high school was nightmarish) and she can finally...give it a break.

For the year she has been living in a half-way house, I've healed. Her Dad still struggles. For him, the damages her lies have done is an open wound, starting to heal around the edges so long as she doesn't relapse or involve herself in destructive drama. Hopefully, she will be able to maintain herself long enough for him to heal.

Reality, I don't think that the idea that they lie because of distorted perceptions is all that over the top. It actually makes a lot of sense. However, my SD doesn't lie because of her distorted perceptions. She HAS distorted perceptions but when she lies to cover up some wrong doing, she knows she is lying to cover up wrong doings.

When she used to SWEAR ON HER MOTHER, I think the distortion was that somehow this might actually sort of reverse the lie, meaning, (weirdly) if she was willing to form those words that somehow just throwing that out into the universe would change the facts for her.

Another thing, there were always lies when she would be in a group setting where someone was telling an amazing story, she would break in and tell an even more amazing story, maybe something that had really happened to her but embellished so as to top the other person, so as to keep her in the conversation, front and center.

I think she knew, in those situations, that she was inventing. But her need to feel that feeling she would feel when the center of attention would totally justify the invention. These embellishments never rang true, would never hold water and the group members, except the very young and very naive, would see right through them. This is one of the reasons people would pull away from her. Imagine a teenager doing this with their peers, very off putting.

Part of my SD's troubles have been that she has an extreme social personality. She naturally prefers to be with people and then add on that she feels abandoned easily, and has a lot of aspbergerish disfunction with talking too loudly, being too boisterous, getting too excited, etc. So, her affliction leaves her so frustrated. She makes a friend and then, mysteriously to herself, she begins to lose the connection. She will do almost anything to scramble her way back to the top of things, including lying.

It's no surprise to me that she quickly, so quickly got addicted to benzos. She was so much easier when under its influence. And from her inner perspective, must have been nice to be able to relax and not care so much, to be a part of a little band of losers. She was the one with the car and the money, I'm sure she was a rock star! She so wants to be a rock star...

These are my musings this morning.

Thursday

[Sir5r]

The sadest thing with all of the lies is that I feel I cant ever have a proper relationship with her because she has to hide things from me a lot, I guess lots of teens do that a bit, Im sure my son does not tell us things, but its different, anyway my son is not that close to me.

I mean, I have stopped asking where dd is, who has she been with and just normal stuff like that which is bit sad really.

I feel exactly the same Heronbird.Most of the time it just feels like Iam living with a stranger. ?

This is the same for a BPD Spouse,  I feel I don't know her.  There's a lot I know I don't know and a lot I know only half the truth about.

Sir5r

[j's friend]

Thursday Hi!
Its funny that you mention that your SD will swear on her deceased mother, as my d has started to do a similiar thing.

My d will often swear that her friend (who I like) was with her at the time supposed events have happened.

DD will say things like "__ was with me," or" __ heard them say that", or even more conviently " __ had just left or " __ hadnt arrived yet"if she thinks that I may check her story out. Some of the stories I have checked out with dd's friend  who has confirmed that she didnt do these things or were at these places with my dd and I have also asked my dd why she always has to mention that her friend was there.
I have asked her if she thinks I will believe her more if she mentions her friend.
She replied " Well everybody loves __"
My d knows the difference between right and wrong and it seems to me that me that my dd thinks that what she does will be more acceptable to me if she mentions her friend( who she probably thinks that I think highly of) as being there and not leading her astray.
(although I know that my dd is quite capable doing that all by herself)

[Sir5r]

Thursday Hi!
Its funny that you mention that your SD will swear on her deceased mother, as my d has started to do a similiar thing.

My d will often swear that her friend (who I like) was with her at the time supposed events have happened.

DD will say things like "__ was with me," or" __ heard them say that", or even more conviently " __ had just left or that" __ hadnt arrived yet"if she thinks that I may check her story out. Some of the stories I have checked out with dd's friend  who has confirmed that she didnt do these things or were at these places with my dd and I have also asked my dd why she always has to mention that her friend was there.
I have asked her if she thinks I will believe her more if she mentions her friend.
She replied " Well everybody loves __"
My d knows the difference between right and wrong and it seems to me that me that my dd thinks that what she does will be more acceptable to me if she mentions her friend( who she probably thinks that I think highly of) as being there and not leading her astray.
(although I know that my dd is quite capable doing that all by herself)

My wife will swear on the grave of our deceased daughter. It means nothing to me that she does that because I know she will go to that extent to have me believe her.  As a matter of fact she has contradicted herself on more than one occasion after that.

I think they don't realize or understand that every has a memory and what they say one day carries on into the next or (scary to think) they believe every alternative reality they speak about.

Sir5r

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[Battle Weary]

My DH will swear on the grave of his mother.  I thought it was a cultural thing from his region of the world, but you are making me wonder... Perhaps fits in a bit with a recent post by reality musing about some of the DH's those of us with BPD children have, who tend to make over the top extreme statements when things heat up.

[jbmom]

My theory is that she lies when something about a situtation or a question triggers potential stress and the lie is a way to avoid experiencing the stress.   

This is my DD too. The lies are usually very stupid and meaningless, but add together lead to distrust.  I think its to avoid a perceived but not real confrontation. Doen't make a lot of sense.

[pattyt]

The sadest thing with all of the lies is that I feel I cant ever have a proper relationship with her because she has to hide things from me a lot, I guess lots of teens do that a bit, Im sure my son does not tell us things, but its different, anyway my son is not that close to me.

I mean, I have stopped asking where dd is, who has she been with and just normal stuff like that which is bit sad really.

I feel exactly the same Heronbird.Most of the time it just feels like Iam living with a stranger. ?

Exactly where I am at this point as I try to wrap my mind around the whole thing.
So sad that I must now learn techniques to talk with my dd in a different way than I can talk to anyone else on this earth. 
So sad that I must step into her fantasy world in order to communicate in this altered-reality way, and so differently than logic would seem to dictate.
So sad that that life has become a scary movie (I hate scary movies)..."Invasion of the Body Snatchers" comes to mind.
Where is my child?  I want her back.

[Alabama]

I think lying is definitely part of the BPD.  My daughter lies about everything and anything and most of the time it doesn't even make sense.  She will lie about taking vitamins, about what time she put the baby down for his nap, going to school, getting her period.  Big stuff and small stuff to the point where I just don't take anything she says seriously.  Today she lied about her birth weight and I found myself caught in a very strange argument until I pulled out of the discussion and let her say whatever she was going to say.  Don't know what she stood to gain over 5 ounces but whatever.
Some of it is distortion for sure...I know that she bends the truth to suit her needs.  Like telling me that the baby woke earlier than he did to justify trying to put him to bed earlier.  But the rest of it is just strange to me.  I am slowly (very slowly) learning to take what she says with a grain of salt and not to engage.  To quote Dr. Phil...I would rather be happy than right. 

[j's friend]

Don't know what she stood to gain over 5 ounces but whatever.
 

 Im sorry but this really made me  chuckle

[heronbird]

One time dd had ran away from hospital, she came home, she was in a state and the hospital had advised me not to push going back for a couple of hours, let her calm down.

Shed was really upset and she said to me if I call the Police Ill never see her again. So I did call the Police about two hours later and they got her and took her back.
The next day she was so sorry, I said its ok but one thing thats not ok is that you thretened me and said Id never see you again, that is unacceptable. She denied saying that, but I could tell she really believed she had not said that, I mean shed said it a few times it wasnt just a small thing. So I found that very different to just normal lying, she really believed she hadnt said that.

I asked a really good P about lying after that, she explained that its not different personalities, its often from shame and they dont want to believe it especially when their mood has changed and they are more regulated.

[Battle Weary]

I think that when they get very dysregulated much of what they say and do is under great stress and they simply genuinely have no memory of much of what happened during the episode.  Pretty sure this is true in DD's case.  In a way not unlike a seizure (DD has epilepsy)--she can remember going up the stairs to her room 15 minutes before the seizure but nothing after that until a half hour or so after seizure.  This is a pretty well known phenomenon among epileptics.

[Neverknow]

It is a weird part of BPD and no matter how much you want to, you know you can't ever really believe anything they say, unless you can corroborate it independently.

It's a hell of a way to live.

[reclaimed1]

The lying was such a problem in our home with BPDd.

She lied about small and significant (crimes) for about 4 years, daily. Like the hairdryers mentioned above, and like the moms above who believed their kids, I did that at times. But I wised up after so many inconsistencies and over time. And then, so did Dad. It took a longer time for Dad to recognize that she could bold-face lie to us, but when the day came, it changed the whole game. We galvanized as a couple and she could no longer manipulate and divide us. I am telling you, this almost broke us - and we have a strong faith and marriage. She then became much, much worse because she no longer had Dad as an unknowing ally. But it was OK - I knew that our marriage would survive now that we were on the same page.

Ever the victim, she was. I helped where I could, for example: removing her from one school and making sure I was there at pick-up so she wouln't hook up with guys after school. She was young. Dad was involved and helpful so often. Taking time out of his workday regularly to counsel her and help her, and guide her in the evenings to FUNCTION through HS academics. She snuck out, she partied, she had an average of 5 guys going at once, she rebelled as much as possible. And this was all in secret, as best as she could keep it. I was chasing the devil during all of this, trying to stay one step ahead of her schemes. She barely made it to her Senior year - so it's not like she poured this energy into her future success.

A big lie worth mentioning: Once at 16 when she told me that she had been raped, I took her to the local PD, thinking I would call her bluff. Surely she could not carry on in front of investigators. No way - not only did she lie to a juvenile investigator (he told me privately she was lying), but also on camera for another investigator. They both said something else was going on.

But it allowed me to see that she had no problem in lying, unconscienable, so that when she spoke a final devastating lie (about her Dad, like many others on this board), I sent her away. I calmly told her it was time to leave. Her pupils were so enormous, I am sure she was high anyway. SHe was screaming and cursing, but I told her to pack a bag.
She was already planning to run away with a BF later in the week, so don't fall for any victimization script. He drove 1000 miles to our state, violating an active restraining order, and they took off and lived in a motel til the money ran out. And then she went to live with relatives, since his mom would not allow a minor to come to her home and risk his arrest. We never called the police on him once the restraining order was in place. If they were going to do this, they could deal with the consequences, and we had as parents done what we could to protect her and our other children.

With her, there were always 2 planes - the reality she created for us to believe and then what was actually going on. I always had to look for the actual happenings since she was young and still a minor. She was still our responsibility, even if she was self-harming. She has 3 siblings (close to her age) and the chaos she was creating with the police call-outs and violence was dangerous and disruptive to everyone.
We didn't like sending her away/watching her leave, but the atmosphere in our home changed the day she left. It has been a loss like that of a divorce, to be sure, but it has been peaceful and harmonious. We can focus on the other kids and their lives, not to mention our own. And the druggies and lies/secrecy are gone.

She lives out of state as a young adult (19), 2 years on. She has been "engaged" twice, still not finished high school. But she has made choices, and also has diagnosed BPD. I thank God for the psych who told me when she was in 9th grade that it would only get worse. It helped me prepare and recognize the truth that she may not get better any time soon.

Recently after one crisis engagement break-up where she claimed to be the victim but was not (outside verification from ex-BF - so, another lie), she came home for a few days, travelling hundreds of miles, only to steal money and clothing from a sister and me. We let her in our home with open arms, and this is what she does: no regard or respect for anyone else and we all need to focus on her. And she failed to mention that she was back with her previous BF because she had cheated on her fianceee with him, the one I had had arrested when she was 16. So we won't hear from her again til she leaves him.
During that long weekend here, she had some rigorously honest moments with one sister, who answered her question "Why don't you call me?" with this:"Because I am not a "convenience", I am your sister. Act like a sister. You will leave here tomorrow and I am willing to bet money that we don't hear from you again for several months. It's not fair to mom and dad and it's selfish." And she has been correct - as soon as she left, she emailed us all "I don't want to speak with any of you again". So she is "splitting" while with this guy again.

The choice to be involved with us or not, at this point, is hers. She has blocked us from her phone and we do not bother her at all. She goes to other relatives for money, they enable her. She is an adult. She knows where to find her family, but she also does not "need" us as long the enablers continue to help her along. We were weary of the lies and abuse and have found peace.

Peace to you all, especially to you who are still living with your BPD. This board is incredible and I hope you find solace here.

[heronbird]

So, she knew she was lying then. Thats what Im not always sure of, I sometimes feel that my dd does not know shes even doing it. Why would your dd do that, I mean she knew she was lying and even told you, so why would you ever believe her about anything again she must think that

[Neverknow]

My stbx BPD w was sexually abuse by her father, pretty severely, from as early as she can remember, until she got pregnant and left home at 15.  Lying was a normal part of her life.  No one in her family told the truth as the truth would have got Daddy sent to jail, and it became the norm, and still is.

We've had talks about her lying and she knows its wrong, knows its crazy, and knows why, but she says she can't stop.   Its her number one self defense mechanism, from the smallest thing to the biggest thing.

[mikmik]

I think the lying is one of those commonalities for BPD.  But, how it manifiests seems to be different.  For my dd18, she will lie to get us off her back.  To get a few more moments of NOT having to do something (put a dish in the dishwasher, clean your room, feed the dog... "yes I did it".  No, you didn't, why did you lie? " Because I wanted you to stop bugging me"  I would stop bugging you if you did it...  that is where the disconnect happens).  She will also tell us she does good things while we are gone at work, but we see no evidence of her accomplishing anything.  Part of her lies she spins I think to make herself feel better about herself, other lies are to avoid having to do stuff, other lies she just does not know why she tells.  In any event, lying, beyond the normal teenage lies, seems to be a big part of BPD.

mikmik

[pattyt]

Question:

I'm still so new to this...Is lying something we should call them out on?
I am learning how I should talk to my dd - validation and all that.

Could I say something like, "I love you and care about you.  When you lie to me it undermines our communication.  I want to be able to trust you and, myself, be trustworthy to you."

[Sir5r]

Question:

I'm still so new to this...Is lying something we should call them out on?
I am learning how I should talk to my dd - validation and all that.

Could I say something like, "I love you and care about you.  When you lie to me it undermines our communication.  I want to be able to trust you and, myself, be trustworthy to you."

That's a hard one to answer. If it is a minor thing, yes you can call them on it.  Phrasing is very important though. It shouldn't be accusatory, more like "listen. I know that's not true."
Do not call them on big lies. I have done that to my wife and it only will lead to dissociation and tears or at worst rage. Save that for therapy, I let my wife work that out there with the hope one day she will tell me the real truth.

I can't stress that enough. Some of the lies are made up realities that they use to cope when the truth is too much to face. Opening those old wounds up serves
No purpose outside of a therapists office.

Sir5r