Lying part of BPD?

[Think About It....]

Could I say something like, "I love you and care about you.  When you lie to me it undermines our communication.  I want to be able to trust you and, myself, be trustworthy to you."

I used to try this.  It didn't work for me.  In order for this approach to work, the other person would have to 1) be able to control their lying and 2) be motivated by wanting a trusting relationship.

I think my DD lies impulsively. In times of high emotion, she doesn't think about what she is saying or whether it's even believable. She says the first thing that comes to mind. And as others have said, she may not even remember it later. 

And she doesn't care whether I trust her, nor will she ever trust me. To my knowledge I have never done ANYTHING to deserve this.  I don't lie to her.  I don't spy on her or do things behind her back. I have never been less than honest in any way. I gave her more attention and validation as a young child and had what i thought was a closer bond with her than with my two older ones. And they are perfectly normal, happy young adults. But she doesn't trust me and doesn't care. This is just her way of seeing the world - people are not to be trusted, relationships have to be tested, and everything others do is a judgment of her. I can't explain it.  All I can say is that the normal rational approach to communication and trust doesn't seem to have any impact on her.  When I've called her out on her lies, she only gets angry at me.  As the previous post said, it might be because I've threatened her reality.  So I just ignore them as much as possible now.

[Violet719]

Could I say something like, "I love you and care about you.  When you lie to me it undermines our communication.  I want to be able to trust you and, myself, be trustworthy to you."

I used to try this.  It didn't work for me.  In order for this approach to work, the other person would have to 1) be able to control their lying and 2) be motivated by wanting a trusting relationship.

I think my DD lies impulsively. In times of high emotion, she doesn't think about what she is saying or whether it's even believable. She says the first thing that comes to mind. And as others have said, she may not even remember it later. 

And she doesn't care whether I trust her, nor will she ever trust me. To my knowledge I have never done ANYTHING to deserve this.  I don't lie to her.  I don't spy on her or do things behind her back. I have never been less than honest in any way. I gave her more attention and validation as a young child and had what i thought was a closer bond with her than with my two older ones. And they are perfectly normal, happy young adults. But she doesn't trust me and doesn't care. This is just her way of seeing the world - people are not to be trusted, relationships have to be tested, and everything others do is a judgment of her. I can't explain it.  All I can say is that the normal rational approach to communication and trust doesn't seem to have any impact on her.  When I've called her out on her lies, she only gets angry at me.  As the previous post said, it might be because I've threatened her reality.  So I just ignore them as much as possible now.

[Sir5r]

Could I say something like, "I love you and care about you.  When you lie to me it undermines our communication.  I want to be able to trust you and, myself, be trustworthy to you."

I used to try this.  It didn't work for me.  In order for this approach to work, the other person would have to 1) be able to control their lying and 2) be motivated by wanting a trusting relationship.

I think my DD lies impulsively. In times of high emotion, she doesn't think about what she is saying or whether it's even believable. She says the first thing that comes to mind. And as others have said, she may not even remember it later. 

And she doesn't care whether I trust her, nor will she ever trust me. To my knowledge I have never done ANYTHING to deserve this.  I don't lie to her.  I don't spy on her or do things behind her back. I have never been less than honest in any way. I gave her more attention and validation as a young child and had what i thought was a closer bond with her than with my two older ones. And they are perfectly normal, happy young adults. But she doesn't trust me and doesn't care. This is just her way of seeing the world - people are not to be trusted, relationships have to be tested, and everything others do is a judgment of her. I can't explain it.  All I can say is that the normal rational approach to communication and trust doesn't seem to have any impact on her.  When I've called her out on her lies, she only gets angry at me.  As the previous post said, it might be because I've threatened her reality.  So I just ignore them as much as possible now.

The way My therapist put it is "you are trying to be rational with an irrational person."  Challenging them like that will never work. 

[Violet719]

The way My therapist put it is "you are trying to be rational with an irrational person."  Challenging them like that will never work. 

The thing is, my DD can be perfectly rational and intelligent most of the time. Her reasoning skills are good enough to handle advanced science and math courses, and her verbal/persuasive ability is such that she would have made a good lawyer, salesperson, or politician.  Many pwBPD only seem to be irrational in their personal choices.  Mine chooses boyfriends that want to control and exploit her.  She had two children that she could not afford and who have limited her educational options when she could have gone anywhere and done anything with her life.  She spends every cent she gets on her friends  How can someone so smart do such stupid things?  Never mind, I know how this happens with BPD. My point is that because of their part time rationality and intelligence, it's easy to fall into the trap of believing them or trying to reason with them.  And once in a great while, it works, which keeps me coming back and trying again.  It's like playing a slot machine.  It's not rational to believe you're going to win, but the random payoffs are just enough to make you think it's worth trying.

[Sir5r]

"Many pwBPD only seem to be irrational in their personal choices.  Mine chooses boyfriends that want to control and exploit her."

Your daughter sounds a bit like my wife.  Very high functioning, intelligent and capable out in the world.  Can't hold on to a penny if her life depended on it.  It's part of her Black and white thinking.  She either will impulsively spend most of her paycheck or insist we pay every bill until we have no Money left to live on.

She also dated a lot of men like your daughter does, BPD's are attracted to Narcissists and many of my wife's relationships were with them.

In fact for me it's the lying about that part of her past that has caused the most problems for me. I've learned "leave it be" for now while she works on herself in therapy.  It would not even be an issue for me except for the fact that she "interviewed" me about my past when we met and when I asked the same from her I didn't get the truth.


Sir5r

[pattyt]

"Many pwBPD only seem to be irrational in their personal choices.  Mine chooses boyfriends that want to control and exploit her."


BPD's are attracted to Narcissists...
Sir5r

My dd is high functioning.  I think that's the hardest thing.  I remember and deeply miss, and mourn, the person I knew (or thought I knew) before.
Her bf has issues.  I think he might be narcissistic.  I told my husband that I'm tired and I don't want to have to diagnose what problems the bf has, too.  My husband says that should be the place to start.

[heronbird]

I think I read somewhere that they are not attracted to controlling people, they dislike that actually. Its just that people feel they need to control pwBPD because they seem so out of control.
I dont know, Ive read so much now cant remember the book I read that in.

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[Sir5r]

I think I read somewhere that they are not attracted to controlling people, they dislike that actually. Its just that people feel they need to control pwBPD because they seem so out of control.
I dont know, Ive read so much now cant remember the book I read that in.

It's an attraction to people that exude self confidence and a strong self image.   The reality though is NPD's provide a strong illusion of that.  BPD's supply them with the adoration they need, they in turn "fix" things for the BPD. When the honeymoon ends things get fiery right away.  The truth is NPD's are just as scared and emotionally immature as BPD's and can be just as cruel maybe even more so in the case of a malignant narcissist.

Sir5r

[pattyt]

It's an attraction to people that exude self confidence and a strong self image.   The reality though is NPD's provide a strong illusion of that.  BPD's supply them with the adoration they need, they in turn "fix" things for the BPD. When the honeymoon ends things get fiery right away.Sir5r

Yeah, he's turned black before.  We are learning how to communicate, setting ourselves up to turn white again, and waiting for him to mess up again.
Am I getting all these terms right?  Feels like a game of chess.

[heronbird]

Sir5r
That makes sense about the NPD, and yes I agree with what you said, I seem to be attracted to NPD for some strange reason, husband, best friend and sister, they drive me mad in the end, its all about them
It seems to be true that PWBPD seem a bit NPD too, would you agree?

[pattyt]

It seems to be true that PWBPD seem a bit NPD too, would you agree?

I would agree with that, heronbird. My dd seems to have some of those traits, as well.  I've read somewhere that narcissists have too big an ego and borderlines have none (probably an overgeneralization) and have thought long and hard about which is my dd's.  Can't really tell.  She's always been an enigma to me.  So private with her thoughts and feelings that I'm not sure what is real.

[Sir5r]

Sir5r
That makes sense about the NPD, and yes I agree with what you said, I seem to be attracted to NPD for some strange reason, husband, best friend and sister, they drive me mad in the end, its all about them
It seems to be true that PWBPD seem a bit NPD too, would you agree?

I think most BPDs have NPD traits as well but they don't live there so to speak.  I know when my wife is in "Queen" mode it's very NPD, she can be demanding, sarcastic and demeaning to others.  She also is the type that likes to think she is above everyone else.  Thankfully she doesn't go there so much lately because for me it's the worst mode to deal with.

I know she dated narcissists. One of whom I knew very well. It was a relationship that was "a physical attraction" (her words.)  It wasn't and intimate one. They didn't spend time together unless they left the bar with each other.  I think these relationships work with BPDs because NPD's don't want to get to close and BPDs while in pursuit of intimacy they can't handle keep their distance and wait at a safe distance.

There is the flip side of this which is a worst case scenario.  My wife had a relationship like this she never fully explained and went so far as to make some part of it up to cover herself to me.
That would be when an infatuated BPD pretty much "gives their self" to an NPD that they view as a powerful person.  My wife's case ended up with her "being treated like a piece of meat" (her words) for the duration of the relationship.  Oddly she told me she saw this man for 3+ months and I believed her. The reality was it was for at most two weeks, from the few things she told me about this no well adjusted person would have stayed around even that long.

I also have to turn this on myself and ask myself if I'm an NPD. I asked my therapist this once and he said no way.

You see I'm the other type BPDs are attracted to, I have ADD.

Sir5r

[bigtoe]

Yes-mine lies constantly as well. Some of it is definitely a distorted sense of reality and some is manipulation. And she will stick to her lies even when confronted with overwhelming proof to the contrary. She lies with such conviction . And it is fruitless to argue with her. She will never back down or admit it. It only escalates into anger. I don't trust her or believe anything she says anymore. Sad, but true.
One of her favorite lies is that she says that her therapist has told her that all of her problems are my fault. That I don't give her the things and support she needs to get better. Rather than present her evidence to the contrary, I don't argue with her. I just say "OK, why don't you make an appointment with him for you and me to go in together and discuss this". Of course she will never do that because she made it up to manipulate me and deflect responsibility from herself. Or she will lie and I will respond. "Well, I know that is not true but Im not going to engage with you today". This approach works so much better than confronting her and gives me more peace. She knows that I have her number. Will this keep it from happening again, absolutely not! But it is how I can handle her. I have given up ever being able to trust her or ever having any sort of normal relationship with her. But this detached approach is so much healthier for me.

[heronbird]

 Hi!
Well, I just came to a point in my book where she talks a bit about lying, I was thinking about this thread and what we have all said about lying.
The book talks about the fact that it is not lying it is bullsh**ing, thats rude isnt it  it is in UK anyway

Ok, a little quote to sum up, It can help families tremendously in accepting their loved one if they can understand that hi is not lying just saying whatever he can in order to feel better in that moment.

Ok, a bit more from book its page 303 if you have it, overcoming BPD by Valerie Porr.
People who are prementalising  in pretend mode are adept at what is referred to as "bullsh**ing" which is not the same as lying. When a person is lying, he knows what the truth is, he wants to make you think something he know is false. He is well aware of what you know and adapts what he is saying so that you will believe him. Lying uses the high road, the prefrontal cortex, and requires the ability to mentalise, a person who is bullsh**ing is not concerned with the truth in a given situation but with changing the subject, he will say anything to get you off his back.  He is not deceiving you, as his intention is neither to report or hide the truth.

She also mentioned about how they hide the truth because of the shame they feel about what they have done, well I guess we all do that a bit, so we understand that dont we.
I thought it was interesting.

[More than sad]

yes, basically as I understand her, lying is when you actually run it through the thinking brain and BSing is when they are using the more primitive part of the brain.  They say whatever comes into their head, whatever sounds good at the time, and to get us off their back.

Shame is pervasive for these folks.

[serenity123]

My uBPD was caught by her ex abusive boyfriends house...of course she is saying he wasn't there and she went to visit his brothers girlfriend...I don't believe her.  I took her into our home clearly stating that if she was spotted anywhere near his house or him she would have to go.  Do I stick to that?  She told me she feels lie dying but I swear she does it as manipulation.  Help!

[heronbird]

Well, my friend said he saw my dd with a boyfriend the other day. I was upset because dd does not do well if she is in a relationship and she had said she is not interested in any bf just now.

I decided to tell her that my friend saw her, she looked at me and said no it couldnt of been her she wasnt in that place that day, so I just said oh it couldnt of been you anyway because my friend said you were with a boyfriend and you dont have a bf.

Just dont believe her

[serenity123]

Should I tell her she needs to leave?  I feel like I won't be following thru on what I warned her before she moved in 3weeks ago.

[Reality]

serenity123
If you have the time and energy and a sense that it needs to be done, maybe a conversation would be very helpful, clarifying your expectations and your serious concerns.  Perhaps ask her if she thinks that is a wise choice for her right now.  Maybe use the broken record technique of repeating your grave concern about her being anywhere near the exbf.  She may need to hear your statement many times, calmly spoken with tons of Wise Mind because of her emotional dysregulation and her inability to make wise choices for herself.
Discussions are good things.  Can you tell her honestly how you feel? 
Let us know what you decide.
Reality

[simenora]

My daughter made false allegations to child and family services and when shamed into recanting told them " I have to take it all back because my mother is angry at me". She also defrauded my CC when she was 12 years old and flat out denied it with the evidence in front of her.

[serenity123]

Thanks Reality.  I just read your post, And I actually did calmly talk with her last night.  She got a bit emotional but I stayed calm...I felt she let some of her feelings out.  I let her know it can't happen again if she wants to stay with us.  I also stressed her taking her meds correctly.  She hasn't started her depakote...she said she would so I will keep on her about it.  I am not ready to give up on trying to see her want to help herself.