Discussion on values and boundaries - what are they?

[Think About It...]

Hi everyone Hi!

There are lots and lots of posts here on L4 about the woes of trying to set and enforce effective boundaries. For us, on this board, since we intend to 'stay', our knowledge and skills with this tool is especially critical, as we know we want to show love and support for our SO, not make them feel shut out, abandoned, and unjustly accused of bad behavior.

Because of these misunderstandings about boundaries/limits, I highly recommend Skips thread under workshops - http://BPDfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0

For those who have read and studied the information in this thread, and are still having problems, let's discuss them here and get opinions about solving them. In many cases boundaries might not even be the most effective tool for a particular difficult issue you may have, and even when properly set and enforced, they might only make matters worse.

Please read and study Skip's info thread first, before we discuss your difficulties or suggestions. You will find it invaluable.

needBPDhelp

[needbpdhelp]

Hi everyone Hi!

There are lots and lots of posts here on L4 about the woes of trying to set and enforce effective boundaries. For us, on this board, since we intend to 'stay', our knowledge and skills with this tool is especially critical, as we know we want to show love and support for our SO, not make them feel shut out, abandoned, and unjustly accused of bad behavior.

Because of these misunderstandings about boundaries/limits, I highly recommend Skips thread under workshops - http://BPDfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0

For those who have read and studied the information in this thread, and are still having problems, let's discuss them here and get opinions about solving them. In many cases boundaries might not even be the most effective tool for a particular difficult issue you may have, and even when properly set and enforced, they might only make matters worse.

Please read and study Skip's info thread first, before we discuss your difficulties or suggestions. You will find it invaluable.

needBPDhelp

[united for now]

Boundaries are one of the more misunderstood - and misused - concepts.

"Can I get someone to mow my lawn with a boundary?"

" Will a boundary work to get them to put gas in my car after they use it?"

"Can I enforce a boundary so that someone pays me all the money they borrowed from me?"

"How do I use a boundary to teach people not to be mean to me?"

"Is a boundary a good way to get someone to put his socks in the laundry basket?"

"I'm setting a boundary that they need to be home by a certain time"

"Can a boundary teach someone how to be polite to me?"

"They need to brush out the dogs hair once a week. I'm gonna place a boundary that they have to do this, or else"

"I don't want people drinking my last soda. So I'm making a boundary that the last soda is saved for me"

"Can a boundary force someone to be nicer to me?"

"I need to know what's going on, so I'm enforcing a boundary that everyone has to list their weekly plans on the calender so that we all know what is planned for the week"

"I'm tired of being ignored. I'm setting a boundary that my partner has to sit next to me on the couch every night for an hour"




So for those who don't understand boundaries, lets take a moment and think about those questions, and can you tell me why these don't fit as examples of "boundaries?"

[Jox]

Hi all,

to me this forum has helped me a lot but not with boundaries. They came up naturally with our work:

AGRESSION, (verbal): - when is picking up fight, - talking in "you never: listen to me, let me talk...", - "you always..."

we decided:

1. Never talk ugly about the relationship.

2. Don't insult me.

3.. Don't insult yourself: i am sick, worthless..., I can't do it...

WHEN THIS HAPPENS:

1. I say: I don't want to talk about this now. Lets talk tomorrow, it will give you time to think better and express yourself better.


More difficult, is when the agression is on the rise, I can sense something is going to happen, the clouds are there but the storm is not.  The problem here is that BPD is not clear or even aware that he is entering in "no control zone":

1. I say: I see you are stressed, do you want to tell me something? IF answer is NO, I immediately set a new boundary, or go to the case one, and say: I don't want to talk to you until later or tomorrow.

This is very difficult since they are not aware of it, they constantly are wounded and are protecting the more damage to their "wound".

But so far this has worked better then anything. It is interesting that he NEVER retakes the conflict the day after.

The key is that that BPD has confidence that the conflict will be taken care off. If not, or if they need is ignored, even by not employing the boundary, they will continue to attack.

Sometimes he said: We never talk the day after... and I say: this is important to you, you want to talk, and if you decide that it is not urgent you don't talk. As you can see they desperately need their emotional state to be addressed immediately.

Jox

[LoveNotWar]

I get that a boundary is not to control someone else, it's to protect my values, myself and even the r/s.

What I don't always get is when a boundary has been crossed and when it's appropriate to enact a time out. I did well twice last week then over the weekend I blew it.

Jon, I appreciate seeing your three criteria. It helps me frame my thoughts around this.

I appreciate hearing all I can about this. Thanks to all!

[Auspicious]

What I don't always get is when a boundary has been crossed and when it's appropriate to enact a time out. I did well twice last week then over the weekend I blew it.

A time out is for you, not to punish or correct someone else ... so I'm curious, when would it not be appropriate to protect yourself? Can you give us an example of when this would be a tough decision?

[committed]

I see boundaries as something very personal for me...something that I put in place for myself in all situations, in any relationship...not just something for this relationship with my BPDbf. It is something that I have decided I don't want to tolerate in my life and they are pretty basic:

I will not be in a relationship with a person who abuses me

I will not be in a relationship with a person who doesn't show me respect (and I in turn believe the person I'm with deserves the same respect)

I will not be in a relationship with a person who drinks heavily or uses drugs

I will not be in a relationship with a person who lies to me or cheats on me

I will not allow myself to be yelled at or belittled or verbally abused.

etc...

the consequences of these boundaries being violated are for me. In the first four of the ones I listed, I will leave the relationship. I beleive I should be in a relationship where these boundaries are crossed. I need to leave the relationship if they are. In the last boundary that I listed, I will leave the room if I'm in that situation.

[nowheretogo]

This is a useful post.  I think that the whole list of "examples" by UFN that started the thread share the common theme being used "to enforce" something or "to make" someone behave a certain way.  Rather, as several of you have pointed out, they are lines that we draw for ourselves as to what we will and will not accept.  Easy to say, but not so easy to enforce when involved in whatever confrontation it may be at anytime with our BPD others.

I am struggling with the alcohol boundary.  Is it ok for our boundaries to change over time?  I knew H drank when I met him, etc, but at the time, I drank a little with him too.  I was a single mother in medical residency and welcomed a little relaxation on some evenings for the first few months (for me, 1 or 2 drinks).  S6 was going on 4 at the time, and I wasn't worried/thinking about his exposure.  He asked H a few days ago why he always drinks so much beer and H said not to worry about it and asked me to reinforce this with S6.  I did at the time, but later told S6 that it is not a healthy or good thing to do.  In just over 3 years of knowing H, he has missed alcohol on I think 3 days, all of which he was feeling really sick.  I think his intake is around 6-8 equivalent drinks per night, usually consumed between around 5 and 10 pm or so.  His behavior doesn't seem to change drastically, but I don't like the fact that it is normalized in our household and that he doesn't see it as a problem at all.  He won't allow me to bring it up as a discussion point with him at all.

I am very confused about how to handle this...

[Auspicious]

Is it ok for our boundaries to change over time?  

I think it's almost inevitable - feelings and beliefs about things do change over time, and our real boundaries are outgrowths of our values.

However, I think in that case we need to have a lot of empathy for our SO's reactions ... after all, we are the ones who have changed.

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't change. But we should own and recognize that we are doing it.

[nowheretogo]

I struggle a lot with this.  Because of my H's behaviors and my own non-aggressive, non-confrontational personality, I have often chosen to be silent and not voice my true emotions on several topics in order to avoid his reactions, being yelled at, etc.  An example that came out in therapy was the fact that I always felt uncomfortable with the way he inserted himself into the business of me, S6 and S6's father and fiancee.  He felt he was helping, and that this was a great thing that he did for me.  I felt like he was getting over involved and controlling me (telling me what to say, email, text to them; getting the police involved, etc).  I never voiced that until we were in therapy, so he thinks that I was fine with it, but just changed my mind.  I acknowledge that this is how it seems and I can say that this is just the tip of the iceberg for him.  In a way, it's what he loves about me that he will also hate about me, if you can see what I'm saying?  He liked that I let him do/say without much in the way of reaction from me...but over time, I can't take it anymore, and the water behind the dam (my true emotions) need to somehow be let free.  Help!

[needbpdhelp]

What Are They?

Wikipedia has a very good link on Personal Boundaries - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_boundaries

The heart of it is:

Personal boundaries are guidelines, rules or limits that a person creates to identify for him- or herself what are reasonable, safe and permissible ways for other people to behave around him or her and how he or she will respond when someone steps outside those limits.[1]

'Personal boundaries define you as an individual. They are statements of what you will or won't do, what you like and don't like...how close someone can get to you
Types

'Personal boundaries include physical, mental, and spiritual boundaries'[3] - (for physical boundaries see personal space and proxemics). 'Mental boundaries pertain to beliefs, emotion, and intuition...Spiritual boundaries pertain to self-esteem [&] sense of identity'.[4] Together they constitute "psychological boundaries".

According to Nina Brown,[5] there are four types of psychological boundary:

    Soft - A person with soft boundaries merges with other people's boundaries. Someone with a soft boundary is easily manipulated.

    Spongy - A person with spongy boundaries is like a combination of having soft and rigid boundaries. They permit less emotional contagion than soft boundaries but more than rigid. People with spongy boundaries are unsure of what to let in and what to keep out.

    Rigid - A person with rigid boundaries is closed or walled off so nobody can get close to him/her either physically or emotionally. This is often the case if someone has been physically, emotionally, psychologically or sexually abused. Rigid boundaries can be selective which depend on time, place or circumstances and are usually based on a bad previous experience in a similar situation.

    Flexible - This is the ideal. Similar to selective rigid boundaries but the person has more control. The person decides what to let in and what to keep out, is resistant to emotional contagion, manipulation and is difficult to exploit.

'Without a psychic boundary, we would be like drops of ink diffused in a pool of water - easily absorbed into other people's definitions of us...It is our freedom to define ourselves.

*  *  *  *  *

Our Personal Boundaries help establish our identity and define who we are, by reflecting our ethics, values, self-esteem, etc. - basically setting us apart from the crowd.

That said they need to be set up not only to protect us from others, but to protect others from us.

An example of that might be this boundary:

I will control my emotions and treat others with respect. Although I expect respect in return, and will distance myself from disrespect in many situations - there are some circumstances however where I need to embrace it and learn from it.

If I am being disrespected by a loved one, family member, colleagues in a heated discussion or meeting, and many other high emotion situations, I will stay focused, listen carefully for some truth behind the disrespect or an unspoken underlying reason, and respond accordingly - always with calm respect. A time out may be asked for, a temporary change in subject, or many other options - saving the radical ones for later, after time to seriously evaluate a proper boundary enforcement response.

*  *  *  *  *

If that seems like a long boundary, consider how important they are. Can you define a value or ethic in a simple one sentence canned phrase you pick up in a self-help book? No, certainly not. Also they need to be uniquely yours, because you are a unique person with unique issues.

Something I learned long ago was the concept of attacking the problem, not the person. As an engineering manager, this was my favorite saying I used to calm down a heated meeting where finger pointing was going on and tempers rising. I try to use this in my r/s issues as well, however as we all know sometimes this can very hard to do when dealing with someone with poor emotional control, and can't be done at all when anyone is severely dysregulated

needBPDhelp

[needbpdhelp]

In just over 3 years of knowing H, he has missed alcohol on I think 3 days, all of which he was feeling really sick.  I think his intake is around 6-8 equivalent drinks per night, usually consumed between around 5 and 10 pm or so.  His behavior doesn't seem to change drastically, but I don't like the fact that it is normalized in our household and that he doesn't see it as a problem at all.  He won't allow me to bring it up as a discussion point with him at all.

I am very confused about how to handle this...

I believe most would consider this alcoholism.  

Since you can't change him, and he doesn't see his problem, no wonder you can't discuss it with him. Unfortunately it will probably take a very strong boundary and strong consequences to influence him to get professional help on this one.

 He liked that I let him do/say without much in the way of reaction from me...but over time, I can't take it anymore, and the water behind the dam (my true emotions) need to somehow be let free.  Help!

It looks like your personal boundary value that needs some work is your self-esteem and confidence. If you start working on yourself along these lines to overcome codependency and being too passive, hopefully you will get to the point of being able to have the strength to set tough limits, and make tough choices.

Get yourself strong enough so you can let the floodgates of that dam open, or maybe just evaporate all that water with the heat of your love, passion, self-confidence, determination and new-found strength.

Sounds easy, huh? Not!

needBPDhelp

[Auspicious]

or maybe just evaporate all that water with the heat of your love, passion, self-confidence, determination and new-found strength.

Beware ... don't think that you can fix him. Love is not enough. Your love cannot fix him.

If love fixed this, none of us would be here talking about this. ;p


Nor is strength enough (it's needed, to remain in relationship with a disordered person, but it's not enough).

You aren't "stronger" than BPD, a terrible mental illness.

It's more about learning new skills.  Like learning defensive martial arts skills, instead of just trying to out-strong a 900-lb gorilla

[united for now]

Boundaries are one of the more misunderstood - and misused - concepts.

"Can I get someone to mow my lawn with a boundary?"

" Will a boundary work to get them to put gas in my car after they use it?"

"Can I enforce a boundary so that someone pays me all the money they borrowed from me?"

"How do I use a boundary to teach people not to be mean to me?"

"Is a boundary a good way to get someone to put his socks in the laundry basket?"

"I'm setting a boundary that they need to be home by a certain time"

"Can a boundary teach someone how to be polite to me?"

"They need to brush out the dogs hair once a week. I'm gonna place a boundary that they have to do this, or else"

"I don't want people drinking my last soda. So I'm making a boundary that the last soda is saved for me"

"Can a boundary force someone to be nicer to me?"

"I need to know what's going on, so I'm enforcing a boundary that everyone has to list their weekly plans on the calender so that we all know what is planned for the week"

"I'm tired of being ignored. I'm setting a boundary that my partner has to sit next to me on the couch every night for an hour"

The examples are about our needs and our wants - but they aren't things we directly control. Yes, it would be nice if the pwBPD snuggled with me on the couch. Yes, it would be nice if they helped with household chores. Yes, I would like to be paid back all the money I'm owed. I can't control these things though. I can't force them or make them happen on my own.

None of these work as "boundaries" since they all have the concept of "getting" someone to do something or to change behavior. They are "rules" in disguise.

Boundaries aren't about changing others, though we may harbor some hope that the person does.

Boundaries are about us taking action on what we value...

   I value life, therefore I won't get in the car with a person who is drunk

   I value myself, therefore I won't listen to someone yell at me

   I value a monogamous relationship, therefore I won't stay with someone who cheats



~~ Challenge ~~

Can anyone rewrite some of my examples to turn them around into a possible boundary? Warning, not all of them can be, but some could...

[Auspicious]

Can anyone rewrite some of my examples to turn them around into a possible boundary? Warning, not all of them can be, but some could...

"I'm setting a boundary that they need to be home by a certain time"

Rewrite:

I value my sleep and my time, so I will go to bed at a reasonable time, regardless of whether my spouse is home yet or not. If my spouse insists on waking me up every night when they finally get in, to get a goodnight kiss and have a long talk, then I will need to start sleeping in the spare room with the lock on the door, not as a punishment but so I can get enough sleep.

[tuum est61]

"I'm tired of being ignored. I'm setting a boundary that my partner has to sit next to me on the couch every night for an hour"

I have to laugh at this one.  My W will happily sit next to me on the couch and ignore me at much closer range - and that actually hurts more.

So my attempt at rewriting this one would get more specific as to my "value" of intimacy in an intimate relationship.  (Do tell!)

"I value physical intimacy.  If  I reach out to touch you or hug you and you pull away, I will not just "grace you with my presence."  I will leave and go do other things."  

I just did that yesterday without verbally stating it - When my W pulled away from me several times while sleeping in, I got up and and went out with my dogs and then my daughter - I still got no physical intimacy out of it (and I am NOT talking about sex).  The result was later accusations/body language indicating my abandonment of her. The choice I have is either accept this or leave on a more permanant basis.  

CHALLENGE

I am afraid that all boundary setting, while acheiving a short term objective of "protecting" and "growing" us, is is in the long term just a mental preparation for departure (which is not really so bad in itself) - if the boundary setting does not cause change in the other.     ?

And I would go further to suggest that it's partners - validation and detachment of your BPDs emotions - have the same short term objective and long term prognosis. 

[jardin]

I am afraid that all boundary setting, while acheiving a short term objective of "protecting" and "growing" us, is is in the long term just a mental preparation for departure (which is not really so bad in itself) - if the boundary setting does not cause change in the other.     ?

And I would go further to suggest that it's partners - validation and detachment of your BPDs emotions - have the same short term objective and long term prognosis. 

Focusing on what may or may not happen in the future is pretty futile.  There's just not much value in thinking about the well, what if this...what if that...stuff.  The key is to live your values everyday.  Day in, day out...know what you value and take appropriate steps to live in alignment with those values.  How your partner responds is out of your control - there's many paths they can choose. We have no idea what the prognosis will be in terms of their reaction to our changes.

Over time though, if you really focus on what's happening here and now, if you examine it and accept it and experience the positive and negative emotions that result from it...you will eventually have enough information you need to proceed onward.  My t keeps hammering this home - the emphasis isn't determining what is the outcome of the relationship, but rather am I doing, saying, responding how I need to in the moment (including just experiencing the primary emotions) to ensure I live my values. 

[tuum est61]

Focusing on what may or may not happen in the future is pretty futile.  There's just not much value in thinking about the well, what if this...what if that...stuff.  The key is to live your values everyday.  Day in, day out...know what you value and take appropriate steps to live in alignment with those values.  How your partner responds is out of your control - there's many paths they can choose. We have no idea what the prognosis will be in terms of their reaction to our changes.

Over time though, if you really focus on what's happening here and now, if you examine it and accept it and experience the positive and negative emotions that result from it...you will eventually have enough information you need to proceed onward.  My t keeps hammering this home - the emphasis isn't determining what is the outcome of the relationship, but rather am I doing, saying, responding how I need to in the moment (including just experiencing the primary emotions) to ensure I live my values.  

So if the value is intimacy in a personal relationship and it is absent, how does one live that value every day since "it takes two" for the value to have expression?  

Can someone advise me what actions I can take to establish a boundary around my need for intimacy other than just going without it?  

[united for now]

Maligned - that's the whole problem.
You want more closeness, yet you need her to achieve it.

Intimacy can't be forced - it has to be shared 

Due to your wife's mental illness, she struggles to express it in ways that fulfill your needs. This is a central part of her problems, thus yours too.

When you have two very different "needs" that aren't blending, looking at your options is important:

When faced with a painful situation, you really have only 4 options:

* Solve the problem.
What can you do to solve it?

* Change how you feel about the problem.
What can you do to change how you feel about it?

* Accept it.
Is it possible to adjust and accept no intimacy?

* Stay miserable; continue to be a victim.
Can you see yourself continuing on the way you have been?