Trying to avoid enabling...

[Think About It...]

 Hi! all

I have found lately that my instincts are to enable my children in order to avoid them getting raged at. I know that enabling is bad for their development, and I know that raging is double bad.

I'm just looking for advice, I suppose, on finding a balance between the 2 options...

To be more specific- My kids are kids- they make messes, and dislike having to clean them. I find myself cleaning their rooms for them, and making it look like it was them... but being 8, 5 and 2, at least the older 2 know it wasn't them doing the cleaning. Stuff like that.

[momtario]

 Hi! all

I have found lately that my instincts are to enable my children in order to avoid them getting raged at. I know that enabling is bad for their development, and I know that raging is double bad.

I'm just looking for advice, I suppose, on finding a balance between the 2 options...

To be more specific- My kids are kids- they make messes, and dislike having to clean them. I find myself cleaning their rooms for them, and making it look like it was them... but being 8, 5 and 2, at least the older 2 know it wasn't them doing the cleaning. Stuff like that.

[Faded]

Are you suffering with BPD yourself?

Im sorry im not aware of your situation more.

My D when she was 2 and also 5 i just cleaned around her, kids will be kids and make a mess, its us that have to clear up, but hey, we get to instill neatness within them as they grow.

By 8 was expressing to D it important to keep a clean room and keep her clothes that id cleaned neatly in her draws, she took a little coaxing but found a clean room a great place to walk into and a nice place to play if she has friends round.

Now she is 13 and her room is a bomb site haha,it sometimes spills over into other rooms in the house but i make it clear that she clear up any mess outside of her room as soon as she has done entertaining her friends.
I was no different, my room was a tip when i was a teen but scurrid round as soon as i had a girlfriend to bring home, almost what i was taught ealrier in life but forgot as teen instantly came back to me, hopefully that will be the way with D.

As for enabling maybe start learn and help the 8 year old with aplan of action in cleaning a room that is messy, i used to weep when i had to clean my room because it was so messy, i found it daunting and a big task to take on as a child, but my parents helped me and shown me the way and ive shown that back to D.

So maybe take the time to involve yourself in showing the 8 year old how to go about such tasks and the certain importance, you could talk this over whilst cleaning the room together and it will seem more of a bonding moment than a task or situation that causes you upset.

Im sorry if im off the mark as i say, im not up on your situation.
If my words help then  

If not im sure somebodys words will help.   Hi!

[argyle]

My approach has been...
'How about I handle the discipline - since I know you find it frustrating.'

Then:
(1) If I have time: (a) So, clean up and you get a star (actually has toddler cleaning the living room atm) (b) Time to clean up.  In both cases, I end up doing the heavy lifting.
(2) If I don't have time: Sit over there.  Argyle cleans.
I'm also trying to make a more proactive, regular schedule.  Not there yet though.

--Argyle

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[beyondbelief]

I may be wrong, your real concern is trying to keep your h from going ballistic over normal kid mess.

Here is one way to try.  Decide how much each child should be responsible for.  You take care of the rest before hand.  Have the kids do their part just before H gets home so he sees them working.  Within a couple minutes they are through and things look good for at least awhile.  Repeat as necessary.

[momtario]

I totally just realized that I said absolutely nothing about my uNPDh in my post!

Sorry for misunderstandings... NO I do not have BPD  and yes, I am trying to keep my H from going ballistic over normal kid mess- though my children are particularly good at the mess-making bit They can turn a nice clean room into an absolute (and I am not exaggerating- I have 3 brothers, I understand mess) absolute disaster, that generally involves food, crayons and/or water when left alone for more than 3 minutes. There was once I thought they were cleaning, but they were actually cutting each others hair. I was the same (like I said- 3 brothers, ) but NPDh grew up with PD parents and learned things a bit differently than we did.

I find myself stepping up and acting for the kids, just to keep them from getting abused by their father. It is walking on eggshells, it is going to damage my kids work ethic, but I was just at my wits end trying to find a balance earlier.

I think a large part of the issue is the fact that they have well over 2000 toys because H buys them something nearly every time he flies off the handle- I will likely start with pruning the toy bins a bit.

[Faded]

I may be wrong, your real concern is trying to keep your h from going ballistic over normal kid mess.

Here is one way to try.  Decide how much each child should be responsible for.  You take care of the rest before hand.  Have the kids do their part just before H gets home so he sees them working.  Within a couple minutes they are through and things look good for at least awhile.  Repeat as necessary.

im not dsimissing what your saying but to add a perspective to that if i may without trying to sound anti-thread.
Would that not lead the child to have to daily be pro-active infront of their faather as he walks through the door.?
If it pans out then the children leanr they must be cleaning/choring at certains and daily religously, if it doesnt pan out then it is just an act for the other parent to observe and i dont see what the children themselves will actually gain long term from this action.
Please correct me if im wrong but i just wanted to add that perspective having a D13 and having pretty much fathered her and mothered her.

[momtario]

Short term, however, I think this will work best in my house... uNPDh generally comes home and starts yelling "Clean this! Clean that!"... Not exactly in those words, but in the spirit of avoidance, perhaps cleaning before he gets home is intelligent. I tend to take a gentler "Let's see who can pick up the most toys in the mext 2 minutes- the winner gets to pick what we have for snack" type approach, which is clearly wrong, because it's not how uNPDh would do it.

[Faded]

I totally just realized that I said absolutely nothing about my uNPDh in my post!

Sorry for misunderstandings... NO I do not have BPD  and yes, I am trying to keep my H from going ballistic over normal kid mess- though my children are particularly good at the mess-making bit They can turn a nice clean room into an absolute (and I am not exaggerating- I have 3 brothers, I understand mess) absolute disaster, that generally involves food, crayons and/or water when left alone for more than 3 minutes. There was once I thought they were cleaning, but they were actually cutting each others hair. I was the same (like I said- 3 brothers, ) but NPDh grew up with PD parents and learned things a bit differently than we did.

I find myself stepping up and acting for the kids, just to keep them from getting abused by their father. It is walking on eggshells, it is going to damage my kids work ethic, but I was just at my wits end trying to find a balance earlier.

I think a large part of the issue is the fact that they have well over 2000 toys because H buys them something nearly every time he flies off the handle- I will likely start with pruning the toy bins a bit.

haha, reminds me of some fun times seeing my D grow up.

Writing on walls in the house, what is it with kids and writing on walls? (glad i was never a kid and wrote on my wall   )  

The time my D and her besty had hair salon day and cut each others hair! oh my, just have to wait it out on that one and let it grow back, no instant recovery haha.

Now 13 she into dying her hair, lashings of make up and boys! eeek!  

[momtario]

With the hair, it was over a year ago, about 3 days before Christmas  Poor D5,
She had the most beautiful curly hair, down past her waist... then, all of a sudden, she had nearly no hair at all, because she wished to look like a rockstar... It's nearly back down to her shoulders now 

[Faded]

Short term, however, I think this will work best in my house... uNPDh generally comes home and starts yelling "Clean this! Clean that!"... Not exactly in those words, but in the spirit of avoidance, perhaps cleaning before he gets home is intelligent. I tend to take a gentler "Let's see who can pick up the most toys in the mext 2 minutes- the winner gets to pick what we have for snack" type approach, which is clearly wrong, because it's not how uNPDh would do it.

It possible to go to a park with the children or visit freind and maybe arrive home just before H gets home?

Maybe help to reduce stress on yourself, the children and your hubby. will also give your kids an outlet and keep the house clean if the kids are not in the house to make it messy. can they play in the garden with you and keep the toys out there so the mess isnt inside, therefor only having a handful of toys like a bike, ball, swing, slide, skipping rope etc etc

Just ideas.  

[your last quote - could cause competition between the children possibly]

[argyle]

You could try the preschool method...each child has her 'work' and cleans up that work before taking something else out. Applied strictly, your house will stay cleanish.

--Argyle

[momtario]

   Argyle; that used to work really well. Once cleaning becomes less of a 24/7 thing (we rearranged all of the rooms upstairs and it's taking a while to recoup from that) I may go back to that way.

[tog]

Here's my two cents for what it's worth...but it comes with two caveats: I am not a parent, nor have I lived with someone with a PD. I'm a "secondary non", that is, my SO has a stbx with a PD and a 12yo son with her. So feel free to dismiss my opinions if they make no sense. 

My first thought is: Do you want the kids to learn to be neater and clean up after themselves? If the answer is yes, then it makes sense for you to put a system in place to help them learn this skill regardless of how their Dad reacts to it. (I don't mean this facetiously, some people don't mind mess and others hate it). So you would be doing it primarily to teach them a life skill, not to prevent Dad's rages. I don't personally think there is anything wrong with a reward-based system for teaching this skill, such as earning stickers for keeping things neat that can be traded in later for rewards.

My second thought is: The reality of having a PD parent is that kids learn to do certain things to avoid the parent's rages. Unfortunately, those rages aren't always predictable, so it creates the "walking on eggshells" phenomenon. In your case, there is at least one predictable cause: messiness. So it's not necessarily enabling for the kids to learn that it's best to pick up before Dad comes home so he doesn't yell at them.

In fact, as I write this, I remember being a child who had NON-PD parents and knowing what would get me in trouble and trying to avoid it (I was also the kind of kid who hated being in trouble), so to some degree I think all kids have to learn what upsets their parents and avoid it, that's just part of life. I remember that if we said to my mother "I can't find ______", she'd say, "If I have to come up there to look and I find it..." and that alone was enough to set me off looking for it again to avoid...whatever might happen. And she never yelled or spanked, I just didn't want her disapproval.

How reasonable is your H? (Probably depends on his mood, I know). Would it work at all if you said to him, "I know it drives you crazy when you come home and the house is messy, so I'm working with kids on picking up before you get home. It might not be perfect at first, but it would help a lot if you could be patient until they catch on" or something of that sort. Obviously he feels bad when he rages at them (hence the toys that he buys) so maybe he would feel validated and at least try.

Or maybe not. In that case, you are back to teaching them the skill of keeping things clean which has the side benefit of helping them avoid Dad's rage.

JMHO.

[momtario]

Thank you, tog. Your post was actually quite what I was looking for. Don't dismiss your role in your SO's son's life .

It was actually very helpful to have the advice of someone who isn't thinking from a desperate parent's POV. I don't personally mind things a bit messy, but there comes a point where a mess is dangerous, and that's is where I would draw the line. Regarding my H and how reasonable he is, he makes every attempt to appear reasonable when we are discussing parenting issues, and then in reality is not capable of it.

It's sometimes difficult to step out of crisis mode, and think rationally about what needs to be done.

Thank you all for helping with my reality check on this very difficult balancing act.